§ Page 97, line 21, at end, insert new clause—
§ ("Investment land held for charitable purposes.
§ F.—(1) This section applies to land an interest in which is held on charitable trusts or for ecclesiastical or other charitable purposes of any description if the land is not used in any such manner as is mentioned in subsection (1) of Section eighty-three.
§ (2) The provisions of Part VI of this Act shall apply to any such interest as aforesaid in land which on the appointed day is land to which this section applies.
§ (3) Where any land, which, on the appointed day, was land to which this section applies ceases at any time thereafter to be such land, any development charge which shall be payable under Part VII of this Act in respect of any development by virtue of which the land is used in any such manner as is mentioned in subsection (1) of Section eighty-three or its use is made to correspond with the use which prevails generally in the case of contiguous or adjacent land shall not, subject to the provisions of subsection (4) of this section, exceed the amount of any payments made under Part VI of this Act in respect of the said land, if planning permission for that development has been granted under Part III of this Act before the land ceases to be land to which this section applies.
§ (4) Where any payment has been made under Part VI of this Act in respect of any land to which on the appointed day this section applies and any part or parts of such land cease at any time thereafter to be such land the limitation imposed by subsection (3) of this section upon the amount of the development charge payable in respect of such part or parts of the said land shall apply only to the amount, if any, by which the aggregate of the development charges payable in respect of all such part or parts exceeds the payment made under Part VI of this Act in respect of the whole of such land.
§ (5) Where any such interest as is mentioned in subsection (1) of this section in land to which this section applies is compulsorily acquired under this or any other Act in pursuance of a notice to treat served on or after the appointed day, then if the land was land 986 to which this section applies on the appointed day, it shall be assumed in assessing the compensation payable in respect of the acquisition of the said interest, that planning permission would be granted under Part III of this Act for any development by virtue of which the use of the land would he made to correspond with the use which pervade generally in the case of contiguous or adjacent land, and that the development charge payable under Part VII of this Act in respect of any such development would be limited in the manner provided in subsections. (3) and (4) of this section.")
§ The Commons disagreed to this Amendment for the following Reason:
§ Because the said Amendment would confer on one class of landowners a preference unrelated to the character and use of the land.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, I confess that, although I lave great sympathy with these charities, I never thought that the scheme propounded in the clause was a workable one. I understand that the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, has an Amendment on the Paper, but I think we should, first of all, get rid of the old clause, if that meets with your Lordships' wishes; then we can consider the new clause. I rise to move that this House do not insist on the said Amendment as set out at the bottom of page 3 and on page 4 of this List.
§ Moved, That this House do not insist on the said Amendment to which the Commons have disagreed.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ VISCOUNT SAMUELwho had given Notice that he would move that the House should not insist on the Amendment bit that another clause should be proposed in lieu thereof, said: My Lords, as the liable and learned Viscount has said, this clause deals with the lands belonging to colleges, universities and hospitals which, technically, for the purposes of the law, are classed as charities. The matter was discussed in the Committee stage of tour Lordships' House, and again very fully during Report stage. The outcome of that discussion was that a clause which I had the privilege of moving was inserted in the Bill by the vote of your Lordships' House. I hasten to explain to your Lordships that I do not propose to reopen those debates or to press the Motion which stands in my name; and I say this with the concurrence of the other members of your Lordships' House who are interested in the matter. I want to make clear that this alternative clause has been put upon 987 the Paper for a reason which I shall now give.
When the Report stage discussions took place, the noble and learned Viscount, the Lord Chancellor, made certain suggestions as to how the clause as proposed by us could be improved if the other place were prepared to accept it in principle. We thought it right that an effort should be made to arrive at an accommodation, in order that the clause should be put technically into the best possible form. Conversations took place between some of us and the Lord Chancellor and his advisers, and I should like to express my warm gratitude to him and to them for the willing assistance which they rendered. As the outcome of that, the clause was re-modelled with the object of getting rid of certain technical difficulties, with the best expert assistance, and was in reserve in case the other place should be prepared. to agree. However, as the Lord Chancellor had repeatedly warned us, there was little probability of that, and the debate in the other place showed the very unyielding attitude expressed by the Minister of Town and Country Planning and by the Attorney-General.
Their arguments, I venture to say, are open to easy reply, but, as I have said, I do not wish to detain your Lordships by re-opening the whole matter and going afresh into the somewhat dry and wearisome technicalities that surround this difficult subject. It is very desirable that the best form of clause should be placed upon record, for I think it is possible that we have not heard the last of this matter. If the apprehensions of these institutions are confirmed, then they will be faced by very heavy losses in the working of this Act, and it may be that this or some subsequent Parliament will he called upon to reconsider the matter altogether. For that reason, it is as well that the best form of clause should he left to posterity, so to speak for their consideration. It is for that reason that I put this clause upon the Paper. At the same time, to invite your Lordships to carry it, possibly on a Division, and to send it back to the other place would be a mere gesture, and a gesture doomed to futility, for the Government in another place, having rejected the very principle of this proposal, are not likely to accept it on second consideration merely because the form of it has been technically approved.
988 For these reasons, I wish pro forma to move my new clause in order that there may be a record of it in Hansard. If the Government see fit to oppose it—which I think is in the highest degree probable—and declare that they are not content for this to be placed in the Bill when it is sent back to the other place, we who are interested in this matter will not challenge their decision.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORI think, first of all, it is necessary to remove the clause from the Bill, and then the noble Viscount can proceed to move.
§ On Question, Motion agreed to.
§ 4.20 p.m.
§ VISCOUNT SAMUELI beg to move my new clause.
§ Moved, That the following Amendment he proposed in lieu of the Amendment at page 97, line 21, not insisted upon by the House:
§ Page 97, line 21, at end insert the following new clause:
§ ("Land held on charitable trusts for purposes of investment.
§ .—(1) This section applies to land an interest in which is held on charitable trusts or for ecclesiastical or other charitable purposes of any description, not being land to which the last foregoing section applies.
§ (2) No payment shall be made under Part VI of this Act in respect of any such interest as aforesaid in land which on the appointed day is land to which this section applies: Provided that if, upon application made to him at any time within three years after the appointed day by the person entitled to any such interest as aforesaid in any such land, the Minister is satisfied that it is reasonable so to do having regard to all the circumstances (including the prospects of planning permission being refused for any development of the land), he may direct that this subsection shall not apply in relation to that interest; and where such a direction is given this section shall cease to apply to the land.
§ (3) No development charge shall be payable under Part VII of this Act in respect of any operations carried out on land which on the appointed day is land to which this section applies by the person entitled to any such interest as aforesaid, or to any interest derived out of that interest after the appointed day, or in respect of any use of the land by that person, if those operations are carried out or that use instituted, as the case may be, within the period of twenty-five years after the appointed day.
§ (4) Where any land which on the appointed day was land to which this section applies ceases at any time within the said period of twenty-five years to be such land otherwise than by virtue of a direction given under the proviso to subsection (2) of this section, 989 no development charge shall he payable under Part VII of this Act in respect of any operations carried out on the land, or in respect of any use of the land, for which planning permission had been granted under Part III of this Act before the land ceased to be land to which this section applies.
§ (5) Where any such interest as is mentioned in subsection (1) of this section in land which on the appointed clay was land to which this section applies is compulsorily acquired under this or any other Act in pursuance of a notice to treat served within the said period of twenty-five years, then if apart from this provision, a development charge would be payable under Part VII of this Act in respect of the development for the purpose of which the said interest is acquired,—
- (a) no such charge shall be so payable; and
- (b it shall be assumed, in assessing the compensation payable in respect of the acquisition of that interest, that planning permission would be granted under Part III of this Act for that development").—(Viscount Samuel.)
§ VISCOUNT SIMONMy Lords, I feel I ought to add a few words, because I have been associated with this particular point, and I think the House knows that this is a matter upon which I do feel very deeply. I will not occupy more than a few moments at this stage. I remember on an earlier occasion asking the Lord Chancellor—indeed, I may say, challenging him—as to whether it was not possible really to put in suitable legal language the exception for which we were urging Parliament to make provision and, as I expected, the Lord Chancellor admitted that that was quite possible, though throughout he warned us that his own view of the matter, and after discussion with his colleagues, was that a proposal even in the best language would not commend itself to the Government in the other place. Nothing could be more completely candid than the way in which the Lord Chancellor then behaved, and I should like to say that I personally am very grateful to him, because I am sure, this goes against the grain with him as much as it goes very greatly against the grain with me.
As Viscount Samuel has said, inasmuch as we are not going to ask the House to divide, I would not be justified in asking whether the arguments used in another place are really good arguments or not, but perhaps I might be allowed to make these two observations. The Minister of Town and Country Planning in his speech 990 went so far as to say that the owners of these great charities for educational purposes, by means of which universities and colleges are maintained and other very valuable contributions are secured, are not going to lose anything. That sounds very comforting, and only proves that somebody is wrong. But it appears on examination that what he meant when lie said that these educational charities were not going to lose anything was that, though they had bought this land on the advice of Government Departments for the purpose of promoting their service to education, the charities were going to he deprived only of the prospect of increasing the amount at their disposal by disposing of this land as they developed it at an increased price. You will not comfort a man by telling him that he is going to lose nothing if he had any expectations of any kind and those expectations are not realized. The fact remains that many of these great educational trusts, of the administration of which your Lordships have heard a great deal in these debates, have the prospect of a very severe loss that everybody will regret and, consequently, a greatly diminished opportunity of contributing to any charitable needs as they have done, trying to do the best they can for all classes.
The other speech that was made on behalf of the Government was made by the learned Attorney-General, and we have heard earlier in the proceedings to-day, from the mouth of the noble and learned Viscount, the Lord Chancellor himself, a testimonial to the thoughtful and well-balanced character of his speech from which I think my noble friend Lord Reading had taken some extracts. I must say that the Attorney-General is obviously a man of many moods. I see that in resisting this proposal in the other place he exhibited that exquisite facility with which he does sometimes adorn his orations. Being faced with this very serious proposition, which everybody recognizes is a most serious matter, he adopted the course of choosing what he thought was an extreme instance, and proceeded to ridicule the instance, What he said was that it would be very inconvenient if, when a claim was made for a development charge, the would-be developer who had bought from the charity had said: "You cannot do that to me, although I have received compensation. I happen to be the conductor of 991 a cats' home, or the Society for Promoting the Doctrines of Johanna Southcott, and you cannot charge me for development charges more than I have received." It is very consoling, I am sure, to some of these trustees to know that that is the analogy which occurs to the learned gentleman. So far as I know, though I speak subject to correction, there is no cats' home which owns any investment land. What the doctrines of Johanna Southcott may be I am not precisely aware. I understand she was a lady who left a box which was locked up for a very long time. I am not sure whether it has yet been opened, but that it contains any investment land I do not believe.
Before we part with this subject, may I say that the fact is that it is really only these big trustee enterprises, not always educational, but sometimes religious, that do in fact own investment land? I do not believe an instance can be given of a comic trust holding investment land. It is to perform the purpose which has so often been conducted under the advice of Government Departments that these great educational trusts have tried to secure that they may be able to keep up the income which is so badly needed to-day in connexion with education. Everything about education costs more. Salaries have risen and hooks, instruments, and buildings all cost more. It is only just possible for these educational trusts to keep up and, it may be, even to improve what they are doing for education of all sorts—for the Workers' Educational Association, for the poorer undergraduates of our various universities, for the great library which serves the whole nation—it is only possible for them to make these contributions if, indeed, they have some means of actually getting an increase. I am sure, as Lord Brand said on a previous occasion, if the earlier founders of these institutions had advised everybody to go in for equities the property would have disappeared long ago.
Therefore, without re-arguing the thing at all, because it is too late, I hope I may be forgiven for occupying your Lordships' time in saying how deeply I regret that this is the decision which has been reached. I do not think that in saying that I shall offend the ears of my noble and learned friend on the Woolsack, for I cannot help thinking that in his heart of hearts he regrets it too.
§ LORD LLEWELLINMy Lords, I just want to add, if I may, a few words. Quite shortly, the reason given by the other place for not accepting this Amendment is because it would confer on one class of landowners a preference unrelated to the character and use of the land. We have in other parts of this Bill differences which do not entirely relate to the character or use of the land. We exempt local authorities for certain land that they hold. I should have thought that we might equally well have exempted recognized and approved charities, because of the use they also make of what they hold. It seems to me that we might quite easily have done that. I see that the Minister in the other place said that there was no reason why that income should not be increased as a result of planning, and that their values might increase as leases fell in. He said: "There is no reason why charities should not be charging increased rent, subject, of course, to the Rent Restriction Act, in accordance with present day values." That is true, to a certain extent, but it means that the charity will be able to get back increased rent only so long as it maintains the existing property, and the moment it tries to move with the times and improve its property, it becomes liable immediately to a development charge. Anything more stupid than that, anything more likely to defer and delay appropriate development, I have never before seen, and I very much regret that this course has been taken in the case of charities which have done such a fine work for the country as a whole.
We are now at the last stage of this Bill, which has gone through this House in such a friendly and business-like manner. The Minister himself gave us credit for the amount of despatch with which we had carried through this measure. I have worked it out and, taking Amendments small and large, we spent only seven minutes on each Amendment. But I would urge that there should not be too much of a rush to try and fill the vast staffs needed to carry out this measure. These people, after all, cannot perform any work which will get this country out of its present grave difficulties, and it is not much good planning a better and a brighter Britain if it is going to be a blighted and bankrupt Britain. We already, it seems to me, 993 have too large a proportion of our population employed in official circles, whether Government or local government. Let us, in this service—I say these final words in parting with this Bill—have quality and not quantity, good men, but few.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, I have the great honour to be an Honorary Fellow of one of the Oxford Colleges—perhaps I had better not say that in my opinion it is by far the best and most famous of the Oxford Colleges, because that might lead me into the area of controversy !—and as such I frankly say that I should have been very pleased if measures had been taken in this Bill to protect in some special way the interests of that College, and all other Colleges in the same case. I therefore felt it right that I should lend my assistance to seeing that the fly was dressed in the most attractive sort of manner in order that the big fish might be attracted. I have played my little part in suggesting the lines which this Amendment might take. In spite of the clever dressing of the fly, the big fish, I am sorry to say, will have nothing to do with it. Therefore I cannot accept this Amendment, and I hope that in these circumstances your Lordships will not press it.
§ On Question, Motion negatived.