HL Deb 29 October 1946 vol 143 cc812-8

2.35 p.m.

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.

Moved, That the House do now resolve into itself Committee.—(Viscount Addison.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly:

[The EARL OF DROGHEDA in the Chair.]

Clause 1 agreed to.

Clause 2 [General powers of Minister]:

LORD CHERWELL

Your Lordships may remember that in the Second Reading debate I mentioned my anxiety because there did not seem to be any provision in the Bill to enable the Minister to cut through red tape which sometimes makes research and development extremely difficult. I said that I hoped it might be possible to break away from the usual Treasury procedure in some respects. In the first place, of course, this applies to priorities. I know that atomic energy has a very high priority but I know also how easy it is to have these priorities overridden by some sudden emergency, and I trust that at any rate in things concerning research, some instructions may be given that this priority is not to be overridden.

I also mentioned the difficulties about finance. I said that in research and development where you could not foresee what would be necessary it was impossible to put down a clear-cut programme, and I hoped that it might be possible to enable the heads of the Research Department to proceed in comparatively minor matters without first having to get Treasury approval. Those I think are administrative matters which can be carried out without any need to put anything into the Bill. The most difficult point I mentioned was that of recruitment, on which I urged that it should be possible for men with special qualifications to be given appointments without necessarily putting them through the normal Civil Service procedure. I understand that that is controlled by an Order in Council and I very much hope that it may be possible to get round it in some way. The noble Viscount the Leader of the House was kind enough to meet this point very sympathetically and hoped that he would be able to give an assurance that would satisfy the anxiety I felt. I beg to ask the noble Viscount whether he can now give that assurance.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DOMINION AFFAIRS (VISCOUNT ADDISON)

I am very glad to be able to respond to the suggestion of the noble Lord, and I must thank him, too, for the helpful way in which he has put his considerations before us. The matter has been carefully gone into by the Civil Service Commissioners and the Treasury and I think I can fully meet the noble Lord on both his points. It is recognized, of course, that those who could be employed on this highly technical and highly skilled work are very few in number and that the ordinary conditions could not be applied. So far as remuneration is concerned, there again you have to recognize the facts of the case, to treat the men fairly, to make it worth their while, and to give them adequate security. Both those things are recognized and I would like to assure the noble Lord that they will be acted upon in substance and in spirit.

With regard to the question of recruitment, as the noble Lord said, these things are prescribed by an Order in Council of 1920, but there is a clause, Clause 10, which enables the Civil Service Commissioners, in appropriate cases, to dispense with the usual procedure of examination, and so forth, and it has been agreed with them and with the Treasury that this procedure will be applied in these cases. I am glad to be able to assure the noble Lord that the clause which gives this power to make these exceptions will be applied fully, and a detailed procedure has been worked out which will enable the Minister to make appointments, with the approval of the Commissioners, without any fear of the delays or technicalities to which the noble Lord referred.

LORD CHERWELL

I am very grateful to the noble Viscount. So far as recruitment goes I am sure that will meet the case. May I also hope that the point about priority will receive consideration as well as the question of freeing heads of Departments, so far as possible in regard to some small expenditure, from getting prior Treasury approval?

VISCOUNT ADDISON

The assurance I gave on the special characteristics was meant to apply to that class of case.

Clause 2 agreed to.

Clauses 3 to 10 agreed to.

Clause 11:

Restriction on disclosure of information relating to plant.

11.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this section, any, person who without the consent of the Minister communicates to any other person any document, drawing, photograph, plan, model or other information whatsoever which to his knowledge describes, represents or illustrates—

  1. (a) any existing or proposed plant used or proposed to be used for the purpose of producing or using atomic energy;
  2. (b) the purpose or method of operation of any such existing or proposed plant; or
  3. (c) any process operated or proposed to be operated in any such existing or proposed plant;
shall be guilty of an offence under this Act;

Provided that it shall not be such an offence to communicate information with respect to any plant of a type in use for purposes other than the production or use of atomic energy, unless the information discloses that plant of that type is used or proposed to be used for the production or use of atomic energy.

2.38 p.m.

VISCOUNT ADDISON had given Notice of two Amendments to subsection (1)—namely, after "person", where that word occurs for the second time, to insert "except an authorized person"; and, at the end of the subsection, to insert: In this subsection 'authorized person' means, in relation to information on any subject to which this subsection applies, a person to whom, by virtue of a general authority granted by the Minister, information on that subject may be communicated.

The noble Viscount said: The Amendments which are down in my name are drafted to give effect to the undertaking which I gave to the noble Lord, Lord Cherwell, that we would deal with these matters. As the noble Lord pointed out on the Second Reading, the Bill as it is drawn might conceivably be held to, shall we say, veto discussion and frank talk between men who are employed in the same department or under the same conditions. The noble Lord suggested that it clearly would not be intended to apply in circumstances of that kind, and that men who were approved for that service and had been engaged for that service would clearly be able to confer with one another about their various problems.

I propose to meet that by putting in these two Amendments. If noble Lords will look at the top of page 8 they will see that we propose there to insert after "person" the words "except an authorized person". That means that "person" does not include a person who is employed by the Ministry, who is, by that fact, an authorized person. Later on, at the end of line 16, we propose to insert: In this subsection 'authorized person' means, in relation to information on any subject to which this subsection applies, a person to whom, by virtue of a general authority granted by the Minister, information on that subject may be communicated. I think if we have an insertion of the words "authorized person" at the beginning, and then this definition in amplification of the meaning of the expression, they will fully meet the noble Lord's point. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 8, line after ("person") insert ("except an, authorized person").—(Viscount Addison.)

LORD CHERWELL

I thank the noble Viscount for his statement. It may be that it could have been done without, but I think this Amendment will make it quite clear.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

VISCOUNT ADDISON

I beg to move the next Amendment.

Amendment moved—

Page 8, line 16, at end insert: ("In this subsection 'authorized person' means, in relation to information on any subject to which this subsection applies, a person to whom, by virtue of a general authority granted by the Minister, information on that subject may be communicated.")—(Viscount Addison.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 11, as amended, agreed to.

2.41 p.m.

Clause 12 [Special provisions as to inventions]:

LORD CHERWELL

There is a certain difficulty of interpretation in regard to Clause 12 which I hope the noble Viscount may be able to clear up. Clause 12, as your Lordships know, relates to the patenting of inventions, the remuneration to be given to patentees, and the treatment to be accorded to applications for patents. In the first instance, the application goes from the Comotroller-General to the Minister, and until the Minister takes some further step the Comptroller General stops all normal action on the patent. The clause says that the Minister shall forthwith consider the patent application and if the invention appears to be important for defence, then the patent does not proceed any further and the applicant is entitled to receive reasonable expenses. If it is not important for defence, the application takes its normal course; the patent goes forward and the applicant is entitled to sell it or to make use of it in the ordinary way.

It seems to me that there are difficulties in saying that the applicant shall only be liable to receive reasonable expenses or compensation for his work, because in very many cases the inventions will be useful both for war purposes and for industrial purposes. To take the simplest case, a man might invent an improved method of separating isotopes. That would, of course, be extremely valuable for industrial purposes and also for war purposes and, quite properly, the Minister would prevent any publication of such an invention. If the Minister used the invention he would presumably pay the inventor in the ordinary way, but although it might be a good invention the Minister might be already using some even better method. Therefore he might not wish to use this one and would not have to make arrangements to reimburse the inventor as he would do in the normal course. It seems to me that if in those circumstances an inventor is to receive only his reasonable expenses and some sort of compensation—the clause says that if possible it shall be related to the amount of work he has put into it—that will tend to discourage inventors, and might even lead to unpatriotic people going abroad where they could dispose of their inventions to very great advantage.

Of course, I do not ask that inventors should receive excessive sums—the sort of sums they could no doubt obtain from foreign Governments—but I hope it may be possible for the noble Viscount to give an assurance that it is intended to treat them reasonably generously; that they are not merely to get their expenses refunded but that they will receive some reasonable reward, having regard to the value of the invention, even though it may not have been used. It would be impossible to lay down exact rules for estimating value and so on, but as the Bill reads it looks as though a man might merely get his expenses refunded and have his work assessed at a very small amount, probably something equivalent to his salary for a year or part of a year. We want the best weapons for the Armed Forces and also the best methods for industry. Therefore everybody wants to encourage inventors, and I think that if the noble Viscount could give some assurance that it is intended to treat inventors generously it might be very valuable.

VISCOUNT ADDISON

As in the other cases, we spent a considerable time going into this with the Ministry and with the Treasury. I think I can quite properly give the noble Lord an assurance on the lines he seeks. Of course, it is quite evident that where an invention is of such a character that it should not be revealed, but is one which may be valuable for purposes other than defence, the Minister must take it in hand, but also treat the inventor fairly. It is very desirable that the procedure should not be such as to discourage bona-fide workers from doing their best to develop new ideas. It would be contrary to the national interest in every sense if action of that kind were taken. The Minister has to be very careful to safeguard necessary secrecy in the national interest, and to see at the same time that he does not lay himself open to being unduly, shall be say, made use of. Those things have to be guarded against, but I can assure the noble Lord that the intention is to treat inventors quite fairly in cases of this kind where an invention is suppressed, and not to regard it simply from the point of view of out-of-pocket expenses, although they must necessarily be refunded.

I am authorized to give the noble Lord an assurance in quite definite terms. In order that there may be no misunderstanding about it I think I had better read it. The assurance which I may give is that although, in the nature of the case, a wide measure of discretion as to the amount of the compensation has had to be left to the Minister, it is the intention to operate the subsection so as to be fair to inventors and not to discourage them from working in this field. That is quite a wide undertaking, and I think it is as far as we can go. The meaning of it is clear, and I hope the noble Lord will be satisfied.

LORD CHERWELL

I thank the noble Viscount. I think that is quite satisfac- tory. Obviously it is in the Minister's own interest to treat inventors fairly and generously.

Clause 12 agreed to.

Remaining clauses agreed to.

Schedules agreed to.

House resumed.

Then, Standing Order No. XXXIX having been dispensed with in pursuance of the Resolution of October 17:

VISCOUNT ADDISON

My Lords, I beg to move that this Report be now received.

Moved, That the Report of Amendments be now received.—(Viscount Addison.)

On Question, Motion agreed to, and Amendments reported accordingly.

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