HL Deb 23 October 1946 vol 143 cc663-8

PART II.

Health Committees.

3. A local health authority may authorize the health committee to exercise on their be half any of their functions as a local health authority, except the power to borrow money or to levy or issue a precept for a rate.

4. At least a majority of the health committee of a local health authority shall be members of the authority.

5. The minutes of proceedings of the health committee shall be open to the inspection of any local government elector for the area on payment of a fee not exceeding one shilling and any such local government elector may make a copy thereof or extract therefrom.

6. The health committee of a local health authority may, subject to any restrictions imposed by the local health authority, establish such sub-committees as the health committee may determine, and any sub-committee established under this paragraph shall be constituted in such manner as may, subject to any restrictions imposed by the local health authority, be determined by the health committee, and at least a majority of every sub-committee shall be members of the local health authority or of a local authority for any area forming part of the area of the local health authority.

7. The health committee of a local health authority may, subject to any restrictions imposed by the local health authority, authorize any sub-committee to exercise on their behalf any functions of the health committee.

6.51 p.m.

LORD ADDINGTON moved, in Part II, to leave out paragraphs 3 and 4 and insert The provisions of the Local Government Act, 1933, (except subsection (5) of Section 85) shall apply to every health committee as if that committee were appointed under the said Section 85. The noble Lord said: This raises a different point. As I see it, there are two conflicting codes for the health committees of the county and county borough councils. Section 85 of the Local Government Act 1933 is the section under which local authorities are given a general power to appoint committees. This section gives power to delegate; it authorizes a local authority to fix the number of the committee and the terms of office; it includes power to add members who are not members of the local authority, pro vided that at least two-thirds of every committee shall be members of the local authority. The Schedule in the Bill as drawn purports to set up a separate code for the appointment of a health committee and this appears to be quite unnecessary and really quite unworkable. The main difference between the terms of Part II of the Fourth Schedule of the Bill and Section 85 of the Local Government Act is contained in paragraph 4, which says that at least a majority of the health committee shall be members of the local authority, whereas the Local Government Act requires that two-thirds of the committee shall be members of the local authority. I think that the Association feel that the Local Government code is to be preferred and that the two-thirds majority should apply to the health committee as to other committees.

The acceptance of the Amendment would further have the effect of applying Sections 94 and 95 of the Local Government Act, 1933. As the Bill stands, those sections would not apply to those health committees. Section 94 is the one that applies the rules relating to disqualification for office as a member of a local authority, that is due to bankruptcy and conviction for certain offences. Section 95 applies the disability against voting on account of interest in a contract to members of committees. In other words, co-opted members of a committee would be made subject to both of these sections in the same way as elected representatives if this Amendment is accepted. I think it is very necessary. I hope that I may be included among the recipients of the kind nesses which have been shown, if the noble Lord, Lord Luke, has not received all the kindnesses that are available. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 68, line 37, leave out from ("3") to ("authority") in line 42 and insert the said new words.—(Lord Addington.)

THE EARL OF LISTOWEL

I hope that I shall not be outdone in generosity by my noble and learned friend, but the noble Lord opposite will remember that there are other colleagues of his on the Benches opposite whose Amendments have still to come. What I think the noble Lord wants is for the provisions of the Local Government Act of 1933 to apply to the appointment of health committees by local health authorities, instead of the provisions of the Fourth Schedule of this Bill. Let us see what alterations this would make. First of all, it would mean that at least two-thirds of the members of the health committees would have to be members of the authority instead of simply being a majority. The second change this would mean is that the health committees would not be able to set up sub-committees, to which some of their powers could be delegated. Finally, the third change would be that the health committees would not be able to set up sub-committees, as they otherwise could under this Schedule, with outside persons—health experts—who were not members of the local authority, or members appointed to the committee. I do think these would be definite disadvantages.

For some time I worked on the committees of the London County Council, and I always found it was a good thing to be able to co-opt a certain number of outside experts. That certainly applied to all the committees on which I served, and I think that the health committee of a local health authority under this Bill would be in exactly the same position as any of the important committees of the London County Council. Surely it is desirable that the main health committee should be able to include a fair number of outside experts. Surely it is also desirable that this committee should be able to set up sub-committees to deal with a particular area or particular subjects, and to delegate to these committees certain functions, for instance, maternity and child welfare or mental health. I do think these advantages accruing to the health committees under the procedure in the Schedule with which the noble Lord is dealing would be definitely lost if the old procedure under the Act of 1933 were adopted.

LORD ADDINGTON

I do not think that the noble Earl is quite accurate. As far as I am advised, the section of the Local Government Act does give power to appoint, to delegate, and to appoint sub-committees. The main difference is that the co-opted members cannot exceed one-third. I think it is very inconvenient if the public health authorities have to work on two different codes. If there were one code governing them, it would be a very great convenience in working. Perhaps the noble Earl would again see whether he is quite accurate in what Section 85 of the Local Government Act does say.

THE EARL OF LISTOWEL

I will certainly go into that.

LORD ADDINGTON

Perhaps he will look it up again. I will not press my Amendment at this stage.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Fourth Schedule agreed to.

Fifth and Sixth Schedules agreed to.

Seventh Schedule [Constitution of Tribunal]:

THE EARL OF LISTOWEL

There is on this Schedule a consequential Amendment following an Amendment the Committee has already accepted in Clause 41. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 71, line 10, leave out from the first ("an") to ("and") in line 11 and insert ("ophthalmic optician and a dispensing optician").—(The Earl of Listowel.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Seventh Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

Eighth Schedule agreed to.

Ninth Schedule [Amendment and repeal of enactments relating to persons of unsound mind and mental defectives]:

THE EARL OF LISTOWEL

There is a drafting Amendment to exclude the words "fourteen days" and to insert the words "after which."

Amendment moved— Page 74, line 46, leave out ("fourteen days") and insert ("after which").—(The Earl of Listowel.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

7.0 p.m.

THE EARL OF LISTOWEL moved to add to the reference to Section 55 of The Lunacy Act, 1890: in subsection (3) the word 'private' where it last occurs shall be omitted; and for subsection (6) there shall be substituted the following subsection: '(6) Where any patient detained in a registered hospital in pursuance of a contract with a Regional Hospital Board is permitted under this section to be absent upon trial two members of the managing committee of the hospital may make an allowance to the patient during the period of his absence not exceeding the amount payable under the contract for his maintenance in the hospital and the allowance shall either be paid to him or for his benefit as the members of the managing committee may direct.'

The noble Earl said: This is the first of a series of Amendments, and I think it would probably be convenient to your Lordships if I were to explain the point on the first one. What we are doing under this Bill is to transfer certain powers governing mental health to the Minister of Health. There will be some registered hospitals, and by the expression "registered hospital" I think that what is meant is a hospital run privately, and one which is independent from any public authority which will not transfer to the Minister under Clause 6 of this Bill. What will have to be done is for hospital accommodation for persons suffering from mental illness to be arranged by means of contracts between the management of these hospitals and the Ministry. All the various Amendments that are tabled here are a means of making these arrangements practicable. The first is to enable the medical superintendent of a registered hospital to allow a patient received there under contract to be sent out on trial. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 75, line 35, at end insert the said words.—(The Earl of Listowel.)

LORD LEWELLIN

I think we are all much obliged to the noble Earl for his explanation in regard to this and subsequent Amendments. I do not think they raise any matter at issue, and unless any other noble Lord suggests otherwise, I suggest that the noble Earl moves them formally.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Amendments moved—

Page 75, line 44, at end insert— ("For section sixty-one there shall be sub stituted the following section:— '61. Where a patient is detained in a registered hospital in pursuance of a contract with a Regional Hospital Board, the Board may make an order for the removal of the patient and may direct the mode of removal and on production to the manager of the hospital of a copy of the order he shall forth with remove the patient or permit him to be removed in accordance with the order.'")

Page 76, line 16, after ("detained") insert ("in any such institution or under such care")

Page 76, line 21, after ("detained") insert ("in any such institution or under such care")

Page 76, line 33, at end insert— ("For Section seventy-three there shall be substituted the following section:— '73. Where any patient is detained in a registered hospital in pursuance of a contract with a Regional Hospital Board, the Board may make an order for the discharge of the patient and may direct the mode of discharge, and on production to the manager of the hospital of a copy of the order he shall forthwith discharge the patient or permit him to be discharged in accordance with the order.'")

Leave out lines 34 and 35.

Page 83, line 10, leave out ("sixty-one and")

Page 83, line 11, after ("omitted") insert ("for the words 'that Act', where they first occur, there shall be substituted the words the principal Act'")

Page 83, line 20, after ("seventy-five") insert ("of the principal Act")

Page 83, line 21, after ("seventy-seven") insert ("of that Act")

Page 83, line 38, leave out ("subsection (6) of Section fifty-five")

Page 83, line 40, leave out ("61")

Page 83, line 41, leave out ("73").—(The Earl of Listowel.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Ninth Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

Tenth Schedule [Consequential amendments and repeals]:

THE EARL OF LISTOWEL

The first Amendment to the Tenth Schedule is con sequential upon Amendments already accepted. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 85, line 5, at end insert—

("The Children and Young Persons Act, 1933 23 & 24 Geo. 5. C. 12.

In Section ninety-two, for the words 'Board of Control' there shall be substituted the words 'Minister of Health'.")—(The Earl of Listowel.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF LISTOWEL

This Amendment is consequential upon a previous Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 88, leave out lines 29 to 34.—(The Earl of Listowel.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Tenth Schedule, as amended, agreed to.