Lords Sitting of 10 October 1946

Preamble
The House met at half-past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
LORD AMMON: My Lords, before we deal with the business on the Order paper, I think I should inform your Lordships that we propose to meet tomorrow, Friday afternoon, at a quarter past four o'clock for business of a purely formal character, to receive a Message and a Bill from another place. Unless your Lordships see any objection to this course, we shall also take the opportunity to put down the Third Reading of the Supreme Court of Judicature (Circuit Officers) Bill for tomorrow as it appears that that stage will be formal.
HILL FARMING BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed, and (pursuant to the Private Legislation (Scotland) Act, 1936), deemed to have been read 2a and reported from the Committee.
ARDROSSAN GAS PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and to be printed.

PRIVATE BILL STANDING ORDERS.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DROGHEDA)THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DROGHEDA) moved, That the Standing Orders relative to Private and Provisional Order Confirmation Bills be amended. The noble Earl said: My Lords, many of the Standing Order Amendments to which you are asked to agree this afternoon are really no more than improvements in drafting and the inclusion of certain minor details which had previously been overlooked. That, I think, holds true indeed of all the Amendments except those contained in the new Part X. Part X is necessitated by the passing last year of the Statutory Orders (Special Procedure) Act which
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came into force on June 1 this year. The new Standing Orders are designed to afford the machinery required to carry out the provisions of that Act. They have been framed in consultation with the officials in another place, with representatives of the Parliamentary Agents and of the Government Departments. I think I can assure your Lordships that they do not raise any questions of policy or principle which were not determined when the Act was passed. They have already been agreed to in another place, and I ask your Lordships to approve their adoption. I beg formally to move that the Standing Orders relative to Private Bills and Provisional Order Confirmation Bills be amended as set out in the appendix printed in the Minutes of Proceedings.
Moved, That the Standing Orders relative to Private and Provisional Order Confirmation Bills be amended.—(The Earl of Drogheda.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Following are the Amendments to the Standing Orders relative to Private and Provisional Order Confirmation Bills moved by the Chairman of Committees. [The page references refer to the "Report from the Select Committee of the House of Lords on Private Bill Standing Orders (No. 28)" printed 12th December, 1945.]

PART II.
Standing Order 22, page 20, line 28, after ("thereto") insert (",or by leaving it at his usual place of abode,")
Standing Order 22, page 20, line 29, after ("Kingdom") insert ("by delivering it personally")
Standing Order 22, page 20, line 31, after ("constituted") insert ("by delivering the notice personally")
Standing Order 31, page 25, line 13, leave out ("Board of Trade") and insert ("Ministry of Transport")
Standing Order 39, page 27, line 44, leave out ("at the Board of Trade, and")

PART VII.
Standing Order 152, page 67, line 39, after ("Bill") insert ("which shall be deposited in the Office of the Clerk of the Parliaments")
Standing Order 154, page 68, line 4, leave out the first two paragraphs and insert the following new paragraphs:—
("AT the commencement of every Session the Chairman of Committees and four other Lords, who shall be named by the House, shall be appointed a Committee to be called the Personal Bills Committee.
Every Petition for a Personal Bill shall stand referred to the Committee so soon as it has been laid on the Table of the House;

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and in any proceedings on such a Petition, three of the Lords so appointed shall form a quorum.")

PART VIII.
Standing Order 178, page 75, line 15, leave out from ("Orders") to the end of the Order and insert—
("shall, except as otherwise expressly provided, apply—

(a) to Provisional Orders issued under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1936, or to Bills to confirm such Provisional Orders; or

(b) to Orders within the meaning of the Statutory Orders (Special Procedure) Act, 1945, being Orders in relation to which that Act applies, or to Bills to confirm such Orders.")

Standing Order 179, page 75, leave out the Standing Order and insert the following new Standing Order:—
("When ever plans, sections, books of reference, or maps are deposited with any Public Department in relation to—

(a) any Provisional Order or Certificate, or

(b) any Order or Certificate which, although not provisional as made, becomes, after the making thereof, provisional, or

(c) any Order within the meaning of the Statutory Orders (Special Procedure) Act, 1945, which is subject to special parliamentary procedure,

being an Order or Certificate by which it is proposed to authorize the compulsory acquisition or user of land or the construction or alteration of works, duplicates of those documents shall also be deposited in the Office of the Clerk of the Parliaments—

(i) in the case of any such Order or Certificate as is mentioned in paragraph (a) of this Order, on the same day as the deposit is made with the Public Department or, if such deposit is made after a Prorogation of Parliament and before the Twentieth day of November in any year, on or before the Twenteeth day of November;

(ii) in the case of any such Order or Certificate as is mentioned in paragraph (b) of this Order, on or before the date of the introduction into either House of Parliament of a Bill for confirming the Order or Certificate;

(iii) in the case of any such Order as is mentioned in paragraph (c) of this Order, on the day following that on which the Order is laid before either House of Parliament.")

Standing Order 182, page 76, line 39, leave out ("except") and insert ("in any year")
Standing Order 182, page 76, line 40, leave out ("commences in the same year") and insert ("has begun in a previous year")
Standing Order 187, page 78, line 5, after ("the") insert ("eleven")
Standing Order 191, page 78, line 35, after ("Procedure Act,") insert ("whether as originally enacted or as applied by subsection (2) of Section so of the Statutory Orders (Special Procedure) Act, 1945,")
Standing Order 192, page 79, line 3, after ("Procedure Act,") insert ("whether as originally enacted or as applied by subsection (2) of Section 10 of the Statutory Orders (Special Procedure) Act, 1945.")
Standing Order 197, page 80, line. 4, at the beginning insert—
("In the case of a substituted Bill originating in this House")
Standing Order 201, page 81, line 12, at end insert—
("When the time for delivering notices, or making deposits, expires on a Sunday, the time shall be extended to the Monday following.")

After Part IX insert the following new Part:—

PART X. STATUTORY ORDERS (SPECIAL PROCEDURE) ACT, 1945.
Interpretation of Part X.
203. In the Orders contained in this Part the following expressions have the meanings hereby respectively assigned to them:—
'Special Procedure Act' means the Statutory Orders (Special Procedure) Act, 1945;
Special Procedure Order' means an order, scheme, certificate or by-laws in relation to which the Special Procedure Act applies;
'Special Procedure Petition' means a Petition under Section 3 of the Special Procedure Act against a Special Procedure Order;
'the Chairman' means, subject to the next following Order, the Chairman of Committees in she House of Lords;
'the Chairmen' means, subject as aforesaid, the Chairman of Committees of the House of Lords and the Chairman of Ways and Means in the House of Commons;
'the Minister,' in relation to any Special Procedure Order, means the Minister of the Crown responsible for laying the Order before Parliament;
'Applicant,' in relation to any Special Procedure Order, means any person stated on the face of the Order to be a person on whose application, the Order is made or confirmed;
'copy,' in relation to any document, means a printed or typewritten copy.
Deputy Chairmen.
204.—(1) Any Lord, who has been named by the House as a Deputy Chairman of Committees, shall be entitled to perform the functions of the Chairman of Committees under the Special Procedure Act, or under the Orders contained in this Part.
(2) Any reference in the said Orders to the Chairman of Ways and Means in the House of Commons shall be construed as including a reference to any deputy appointed in accordance with the Orders of the House of Commons to perform the functions of the said Chairman under the said Act.
Laying of Orders.
205.—(1) On the day on which a Special Procedure Order is laid before this House under Section 2 of the Special Procedure Act, the Minister shall cause copies of the Order, and of the certificate or statement required by that section to be laid together with the Order,—

(a) to be deposited in the Office of the Clerk of the Parliaments; and

(b) to be made available to any person on application to the Minister and on payment:

Provided that the requirements of paragraph (b) of this Order need not be complied with as respects copies of the Special Procedure Order if it is a Statutory Instrument, of which copies are required by Section 2 of the Statutory Instruments Act, 1946, to be printed and sold.
(2) If on the face of any Order so laid there is stated the name and address of the person on whose application the Order is made or confirmed, that statement shall be included in all copies of the Order deposited or made available in accordance with the foregoing paragraph.
Presentation of Petitions.
206.—(1) Every Special Procedure Petition presented to this House shall be presented by being deposited in the Office of the Clerk of the Parliaments.
(2) There shall be indorsed on every Special Procedure Petition so presented—

(a) the title of the Special Procedure Order against which it is presented;

(b) a statement that it is presented as a Petition for amendment or a Petition of general objection, as the case may be; and

(c) the name and address of the Party or Agent depositing it.

(3) The Petitioner shall cause—

(a) a copy of the Petition to be deposited in the Committee and Private Bill Office of the House of Commons, and another copy at the office of the Minister not later than the day following that on which the Petition was presented;

(b) a copy of the Petition to be delivered, or despatched by registered post, to the Applicant (if any) or to each Applicant (if more than one) at his address as specified on the face of the Order not later than the day aforesaid; and

(c) copies of the Petition to be made available, not later than three days from the day on which the Petition was presented, to any person on application to the Petitioner or his Agent at the address indorsed on the Petition, and on payment.

Memorials objecting to Petitions.
207.—(1) Within the period of seven days beginning with the day on which a Special Procedure Petition is presented to this House, the Minister, or any Applicant, may present to this House a Memorial objecting to the Petition being certified as proper to be received or, if it is presented as a Petition for amendment, objecting that it is a Petition of general objection, and stating specifically in either case the grounds of the objection.
(2) Every such Memorial shall be presented to this House by depositing it in the Office of the Clerk of the Parliaments.
(3) On the day on which a Memorial is so presented, the Memorialist shall cause—

(a) a copy thereof to be deposited in the Committee and Private Bill Office of the House of Commons; and

(b) another copy thereof to be delivered, or despatched by registered post, to the Petitioner or his Agent at the address indorsed on the Special Procedure Petition.

Consideration of Petitions by Chairmen.
208.—(1) If a Memorial is duly presented to this House objecting to a Special Procedure Petition, the Chairman shall give notice in the Office of the Clerk of the Parliaments of the time and place at which the Chairmen will consider the Petition and the Memorial.
(2) If no such Memorial is presented, but the Chairmen are not satisfied that a Special Procedure Petition should be certified as proper to be received, or, if it is presented as a Petition for amendment, are not satisfied that it is such a Petition, the Chairman shall give notice in the Office of the Clerk of the Parliaments of the time and place at which the Chairmen will further consider the Petition.
(3) The Chairmen shall have power to determine questions of locus standi in connection with their examination of Special Procedure Petitions, and to decide as to the rights of the Petitioners to be heard upon such Petitions.
Reference of Petition to Joint Committee.
209.—(1) Where under Section 4 of the Special Procedure Act any Special Procedure Petition stands referred or has been referred by order of either House, to a Joint Committee—

(a) the Committee of this House shall consist of three Lords to be named by the Committee of Selection;

(b) the Petitioner shall be entitled to be heard by himself, his Counsel or Agent, and to tender evidence in support of the Petition;

(c) the Minister shall be entitled to be heard by himself, his Counsel or Agent, and to tender evidence against the Petition;

(d) the minutes of the evidence taken before the Committee shall be reported to the House:

Provided that the Minister may give notice in accordance with the following paragraph that he desires that the rights conferred on him by sub-paragraph (c) of this paragraph shall be exercised by any Applicant specified in the notice, and thereupon the said subparagraph shall have effect as if that Applicant were substituted for the Minister.
(2) Any such notice shall be delivered, or despatched by registered post, to the Petitioner or his Agent at the address indorsed on the Special Procedure Petition and to the Applicant specified in the notice at his address as specified on the face of the Special Procedure Order, within three days after the report of the Chairmen is laid before this House under subsection (5) of Section 3 of the Special Procedure Act, and copies thereof shall be deposited in the Office of the Clerk of the Parliaments and in

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the Committee and Private Bill Office of the House of Commons within the said three days.
Counter-Petitions.
210.—(1) Where under subsection (5) of Section 3 of the Special Procedure Act the Chairmen have reported that any Special Procedure Petition has been presented to this House and has been certified as a Petition for amendment and as proper to be received, a Petition (hereinafter referred to as a "Counter-Petition") may, within the period of fourteen days, beginning with the date on which the Report is laid before this House, be presented to this House complaining that an amendment prayed for by the Special Procedure Petition will affect the interest of the person presenting the Counter-Petition (hereinafter referred to as the "Counter-Petitioner"), and such Counter-Petition shall stand referred to the Joint Committee, to whom the Special Procedure Petition stands referred, or has been referred by order of either House.
(2) Any Counter Petition presented to this House shall be presented by being deposited in the Office of the Clerk of the Parliaments.
(3) There shall be indorsed on every Counter-Petition so presented—

(a) the title of the Special Procedure Order to which it relates;

(b) the name and address of the Party or Agent depositing it; and

(c) the name of the Party or Agent who presented the Special Procedure Petition to which it relates (hereinafter referred to as the "original Petitioner").

(4) Not later than the day following that on which the Counter-Petition was presented, the Counter-Petitioner shall cause—

(a) a copy thereof to be deposited in the Committee and Private Bill Office of the House of Commons and another copy thereof to be deposited, at the office of the Minister;

(b) another copy thereof to be delivered, or despatched by registered post, to the original Petitioner at the address indorsed on the Special Procedure Petition; and

(c) if the Minister has given notice under the last foregoing Order that he desires that his rights shall be exercised by an Applicant specified in the notice, another copy thereof to be delivered, or despatched by registered post, to that Applicant at his address as specified on the face of the Special Procedure Order.

(5) If, on consideration of a Counter-Petition, the Joint Committee to whom the relevant Special Procedure Petition stands referred, or has been referred by order of either House, are satisfied that an amendment prayed for by the Special Procedure Petition may affect the interest of the Counter-Petitioner, the Committee may allow the Counter-Petitioner to be heard by himself, his Counsel or Agent, and to tender evidence, against the Special Procedure Petition.
Withdrawal of Petitions, Counter-Petitions and Memorials.
211. Any Petitioner, Counter-Petitioner or Memorialist may withdraw his Petition,
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Counter-Petition or Memorial, on a requisition to that effect being deposited in the Office of the Clerk of the Parliaments, signed by him or by the Agent who deposited the Petition, Counter-Petition or Memorial; and where any such Petition or Counter-Petition is signed by more than one person, any person signing the Petition or Counter-Petition, may withdraw from the Petition or Counter-Petition by a similar requisition, signed and deposited as aforesaid.
Orders of Local Government Boundary Commission.
212. In relation to any Special Procedure Order made by the local Government Boundary Commission under the Local Government (Boundary Commission) Act, 1945, the foregoing Orders contained in this Part shall have effect subject to the following modifications:—

(a) in sub-paragraph (a) of paragraph (3) of Order 206 the reference to the office of the Minister shall include a reference to the office of the Commission;

(b) in paragraph (1) of Order 207 a reference to the Commission shall be substituted for the reference to the Minister;

(c) in sub-paragraph (c) or paragraph (1) of Order 209 a reference to be Commission shall be substituted for the reference to the Minister, and the proviso to that paragraph and paragraph (2) of that Order shall not apply;

(d) in sub-paragraph (a) of paragraph (4) of Order 210 the reference to the office of the Minister shall include a reference to the office of the Commission.

Extension of time.
213.—(1) If any period within which anything is required to be done under the Orders contained in this Part expires when Parliament is dissolved or prorogued, or during any recess of the House, it shall be extended so as to expire with the first day thereafter on which the House sits for public business after such dissolution, prorogation or recess.
(2) In the case of a Special Procedure Petition presented to this House, paragraph (1) of this Order shall apply to the period of fourteen days allowed for the presentation thereof under subsection (1) of Section 3 of the Special Procedure Act in like manner as it applies to a period mentioned in that paragraph.
Notice of date of operation or withdrawal of Order.
214.—(1) Any notice given by the Minister under subsection (2) of Section 6 of the Special Procedure Act either determining the date on which an Order is to come into operation or withdrawing an Order shall be given by publishing the notice—

(a) in a case where the Order relates to England or Wales or any Part thereof, but not to Scotland or any part thereof, in the London Gazette;

(b) in a case where the Order relates to Scotland or any part thereof, but not to England or Wales or any part thereof, in the Edinburgh Gazette;

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(c) in any other case, both in the London Gazette and in the Edinburgh Gazette;

and, in the case of an Order relating to a particular area, in at least one newspaper circulating in that area.
(2) A copy of any such notice withdrawing an Order shall be laid before this House within four days after it is published in accordance with paragraph (1) of this Order.
Fees to be charged.
215. The fees to be charged in respect of Special Procedure Orders in the House of Lords shall be those set forth in the Appendix marked C.")

PART X.
Standing Order 203, page 82, line 29, leave out ("third ensuing day upon") and insert ("first day on").
Standing Order 203, page 82, line 30, after ("business") insert ("after the recess").
Standing Order 203, page 83, line 29, leave out ("which shall be named by the Committee of Selection").
Standing Order 203, page 83, line 31, after ("accordingly") insert—
("If the Committee report under subparagraph (d) of this paragraph that there ought to be a further inquiry, the Select Committee to which the Special Order is referred shall be named by the Committee of Selection").
Standing Order 205, page 84, line 9, leave out ("a Committee of ten Lords") and insert ("the Chairman of Committees and nine other Lords, who shall be named by the House,")
Standing Order 205, page 84, Line 10, after ("appointed") insert ("a Committee").
Appendix C., page 92, after Fees to be charged on Provisional Order Confirmation Bills insert—

("SPECIAL PROCEDURE ORDERS.

£

s.

d.

On the deposit of a Memorial by an Applicant (other than a Government Department)

1

0

0

For every day on which an Applicant (other than a Government Department) appears before

(1) the Chairmen

3

0

0

(2) a Joint Committee

10

0

0

On the deposit of every Petition and of every Counter-Petition

2

0

0

For every day on which a Petitioner appears before the Chairmen or a Joint Committee

2

0

0

For every day on which a Counter-Petitioner appears before a Joint Committee

2

0

0")

The said Standing Orders amended accordingly and to be printed as amended.

PUBLIC NOTARIES (WAR SERVICE OF ARTICLED CLERKS).
2.39 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD JOWITT): My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be read a second time. This is a Bill to enable young men who aspire to qualify as public notaries to count the time of their national service in this war as part of the period required by law for their apprenticeship, provided that they actually serve as apprentices for not less than two years. The full period is five years outside London, where nearly all the notaries also practise as solicitors, and seven years inside London, where the notaries are required to be members of the Scriveners' Company, becoming experienced in the laws and languages of foreign countries, but they do not practise as solicitors.
The provisions of this Bill follow precedent. After the war of 1914–18 the same concession was made by the Public Notaries (Articled Clerks) Act, 1919, and in this war a corresponding revision has been made for solicitors' articled clerks by Section 3 of the Solicitors (Emergency Provisions) Act, 1940. The functions of a notary public are to a great extent with our overseas trade. They include the drawing up of formal papers particularly relevant to ships and their navigation, as well as the carrying of cargoes of ships. The office of a notary, which is one of great antiquity, is, I believe, recognized in all civilized countries and by the law of nations. The acts of notaries have credit everywhere. A notary has to know the laws and languages of foreign countries. He prepares legal documents for use in other countries and makes authentic translations of foreign legal instruments for use in this country.
Notaries are deliberately restricted as to numbers. The approximate number now practising in England and Wales is 550, and the number of apprentices serving their articles is, at the present time, about l00. Though their numbers are few, the return of men from the Forces has revealed to the Master of the Faculties that a substantial number of apprentices would suffer hardship if admission had to be postponed until the full statutory period of their articles had elapsed. The object of the Bill is to remove that hardship. I need say little about the details of the Bill. Your Lordships will notice some reference to the Master of the Faculties. The office in which by custom or Statute notaries have always been sworn, admitted and enrolled is the Court of Faculties,

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and, by Statute., the Master of the Faculties is the proper officer for stating that the statutory requirements relating to the admission of notaries are fulfilled. Accordingly, in Clause 2 it is the Master of the Faculties to whom, as in the case of the Act of 1919, discretion is given to relax some of these requirements by reason of war circumstances.
Again, in Clause 3 (c) the definition of "war service" includes:
"any public service connected with or consequent upon any such war and being of a character approved by the Master of the Faculties."
This follows the definition of war service in the Act of 1919, and in subsection (2) it is set out that:
"Any question whether any person has been engaged in war service for the purposes of this Act, or as to the length of such service, shall be determined by the Master of the Faculties."
Similarly, in the Act of 1919 the Master of the Faculties had to be satisfied as to the fact and length of war service.
In one respect there is a departure from the Act of 1919. In that Act there were references to "the present war," and as the war did not finally terminate until 1926, after the Treaties of Peace had been made, the Act was in force for an unnecessarily long time. In this Bill there is, instead, a reference to a period called the "emergency period" which can be terminated by Order in Council at any time; and in choosing a date there will be no need to consider any circumstances except those which affect the purposes of this Bill. In this respect the Bill follows the more recent precedent of the Solicitors (Emergency Provisions) Act, 1940, and the definition of "national service" under that Act has been closely followed in the definition of "war service" in the Bill. In substance, the Bill merely reenacts the Act of 1919, and although this Bill will apply to a mere handful of young men, in that these young men have done service in the war I feel sure that your Lordships in all quarters of the House would desire that the principles of the Bill which we had in 1919 should equally apply at the present time. I beg to move that the Bill be given a Second Reading.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
2.47 p.m.
VISCOUNT MAUGHAM: My Lords, this matter has been so fully explained
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by the noble and learned Lord who sits on the Woolsack that I do not think I need add anything as to the circumstances in which the Bill is put before the House or as to the effect which it will have. As the Lord Chancellor has pointed out, there is ample precedent for a provision of this kind even though, no doubt, it does diminish the period of time available for the tuition of the young men who are going to become, or who hope to become, notaries public. That, of course, is a pity, but all profession, or nearly all professions, have found it necessary to have some such provision as is translated into the language of Clauses 1 and 2 of this Bill. Even barristers, although there is no compulsory period of tuition in their case, have found something of the sort necessary. Barristers are thought to be amply instructed by having to eat dinners in the Inns of Court for some prolonged period, and we of the Inns of Court have thought it proper to regard the period during which the dinners are supposed to be eaten as a period which is almost equally complied with by service to the Crown. Accordingly, we, too, have made some such provision as is made in this Bill. I think that the arrangements set out in the Bill—which I have very carefully considered—are well-worded and proper, and although for a short space of time notaries public in England will not be quite so well trained as they used to be, I think that that is inevitable in the circumstances. I feel that your Lordships will desire at once to give this Bill a Second Reading.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE (CIRCUIT OFFICERS) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.

CABLE AND WIRELESS BILL.
2.50 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee on recommitment of the Bill, read.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (LORD PAHENHAM): My Lords, I beg to

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move that the House do resolve itself into Committee on this Bill. With the permission of the House, I will say a very few words regarding the Report of the Select Committee. We in the Government are most grateful for the fair-mindness and thoroughness with which the Select Committee investigated this Bill. If I may say so, they have been agreeably loth to use the red ink and almost equally loth to use the blue pencil; they have been very kind to us, and given us what is practically a clean Bill. One Amendment has emerged, agreed on between the company and the Government, which I will be moving at the proper moment.
I should, however, make one further point on behalf of the Government. I am afraid that we cannot undertake, as implied by the Select Committee, to incorporate in the Bill itself any specific safeguard for the future of the employees of the company, but I hope that the House will feel satisfied that the interests of the employees will in no way suffer. On that subject, I would point out that this Bill transfers to public ownership the shares of Cable and Wireless, Limited, which are at present held by private persons, and we do not feel that this is the place in which to make provision for compensation to the staff of the company—a company which, for the time being, at any rate, will remain in existence. In any case—and this will be perhaps more relevant in the view of the House—very firm assurances have been given on behalf of the Government that existing contracts of service of employees will not be disturbed by a change of ownership. Moreover, any changes in conditions of employment will only be made after full consultation with representative staff associations. Finally, there is to be appropriate machinery for consultation between the management and the staff on all matters of mutual interest.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: May I ask the noble Lord whether that covers pensions, as well?
LORD PAKENHAM: I have no doubt that it will cover pensions, although I am speaking without the book. I have no doubt that pensions would be a matter of mutual interest. The noble Viscount must take my extempore statement on that for what it is worth.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: And if it was in an existing contract that, of course, would stand?
LORD PAKENHAM: So I should imagine—again speaking extempore. If it were within the contract it would come under the phrase which I have already used, which refers to existing contracts of service. I know how much importance noble Lords opposite attach to this matter of seeing that full justice is done to employees and full security provided, and I hope that what I have just said will prove satisfactory. As regards directors, in the view of His Majesty's Government there is, on this occasion, no case for compensation. If we may consider first the ordinary directors, the House will appreciate that even if this Bill had never seen the light of day arrangements could have been made at any time for their removal, and no compensation would have been payable to them. On the other hand, directors with service contracts are in a different category, and are in a somewhat stronger legal position. These gentlemen, however, if they are removed under the Bill before the House, will suffer no pecuniary loss whatever, since the holding company, of which they are also directors, will be liable to pay their full salaries. Any loss incurred would fall on the holding company and, if a case were made out, would be a matter for discussion between the Government and that company after the appointed day. I hope that what I have said on this subject will seem reasonable, and whilst I shall attempt to reply to any further points which may be raised I hope also that the House will feel able to send the Bill forward without further alterations.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Pakenham.)
LORD ALTRINCHAM: My Lords, on behalf of those sitting with me I would associate myself with what the noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, has just said about the work of the Select Committee. It was very efficiently carried out, and we are grateful to them. I should also like to welcome the assurance which he gave us about the treatment to be accorded to the old servants of the company now being taken over by the Government. There is no question in any quarter that the company has rendered the greatest

157
service to this country, and to the Empire, and there is no question that these men have had a particularly hard time during the war. It would be wrong if old servants of the company who have rendered a great public service should be in any way prejudiced or should suffer from lack of consideration because, in the interests of Imperial co-operation, the status of the company is to be changed. We are all very glad indeed that that definite statement was made on behalf of His Majesty's Government, and of course we assume that a contract includes a contract for a pension, where that is included in the contract.
VISCOUNT MERSEY: My Lords, I also wish to associate myself with the noble Lord in thanking the Select Committee for their work. The noble Marquess who sits beside me naturally feels reluctant to do so, as he was Chairman.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[The EARL OF DROGHEDA in the Chair.]
Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to.
Clause 3 [Consequential provisions as to operating company]:
EARL FORTESCUE: On behalf of the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, who is unable to be here, I am authorized to say that he does not propose to move the Amendment which he put down to this clause or, indeed, any Amendment standing in his name.
LORD PAKENHAM: May I express my gratitude to the noble Earl, and ask him to convey it to the noble Lord, Lord Woolton?
Clause 3 agreed to.
Clauses 4 and 5 agreed to.
LORD PAKENHAM: I understand that it falls to the spokesman for the Government to move an Amendment made by the Select Committee, and I beg to do so.
Amendment (made by the Select Committee) moved—
After Clause 5 insert the following new clause:
Availability of transferred documents and staff for compensation proceedings.
"5A. It shall be the duty of the operating company—

(a) to afford, without payment, to any company mentioned in the First Schedule to this Act, such facilities as that company
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may reasonably require in prosecuting its claim to compensation under this Act for the examination of, and the taking of copies of or extracts from, documents relating to the operating company's undertaking; and

(b) so far as may be reasonably necessary in order to enable any such company effectually to avail itself of the right conferred by the preceding paragraph and to prosecute its claim, to enter into arrangements for its having, for such period as may be reasonably necessary for that purpose, the services of any person in the employment of the operating company."—(Lord Pakenham.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
Schedules agreed to.

ACTIONS AGAINST THE CROWN.
3.0 p.m.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Broughshane, who is not here, I beg to ask the question standing in his name on the Paper.
[The question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government, whether they have given consideration to the general demand from all sections of the public for an amendment of the law whereby the Crown and Ministers of the Crown cannot be sued in tort, the urgency of the matter having been greatly increased in view of the Government's policy for the nationalization of industry and the consequent denial to persons so employed of the rights and remedies possessed by workers in private employment.]
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I rather wish that the question had gone by default, and for this reason: I have asked for the answer which I ought to have, and so far I have not been furnished with that answer. In the circumstances, I must, as it were, give it on my own—E. & O.E., as they say, in commercial letters. Quite seriously, however, I am very anxious indeed to get a Bill through which puts the Crown in the same position as an ordinary employer, subject to be sued both in contract and in tort. Obviously, it is a difficult matter, one which will require consideration and not a little Parliamentary time. Therefore, the answer which I give—if I get into trouble about this, I shall ask all your Lordships to give me protection—is that I am very anxious to

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introduce such a Bill, but I am doubtful whether I shall get consent, owing to the exigencies of Parliamentary time, to do so in the near future. I shall press my colleagues to give me what opportunity they can, and I very much hope—before many years have passed!—to be able to introduce and carry such a Bill.
VISCOUNT CRAN BORNE: My Lords, I should like to ask the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chancellor, whether there is any chance that this Bill might take precedence over new schemes of nationalization?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: With the immensely important Bills which we have coming forward, I am a little doubtful whether there is any possibility of getting the Bill through in the immediate future, but, if I may use the vernacular, I hope that this Bill may
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have a chance amongst what are commonly called the "also rans."

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
3.4 p.m.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DOMINION AFFAIRS (VISCOUNT ADDISON): My Lords, before the House adjourns, I would remind your Lordships of the notice which my noble friend Lord Ammon gave at the beginning of our proceedings to-day—namely, that the House will meet to-morrow, and I would also state that we shall have a meeting on Monday. Owing to the fact that the Law Lords are sitting on Monday to hear appeals we shall not be able to meet on that day quite as early as we should have liked. The hour of meeting will be four o'clock.
House adjourned at five minutes past three o'clock.