HL Deb 23 May 1946 vol 141 cc449-68
VISCOUNT SWINTON

had given Notice to ask His Majesty's Government what arrangements will be made to establish a central depôt in London for the reception and despatch of passengers using the London Airport; and in particular whether having regard to its convenient situation and immediate availability the Government will use the Earls Court Exhibition Building for this purpose; and to move for Papers. The noble Viscount said: My Lords, in moving the Motion which stands in my name on the Paper, I hope that on this occasion I have an issue on which the whole House may agree. I make no apology for bringing it to the House again at the earliest possible date because the Minister for Civil Aviation has himself affirmed that it is a matter both of importance and of urgency. I would like to put what I may call the whole case before your Lordships of the absolute necessity of a centre in London in connexion with civil aviation, because I am not sure that the essential elements are fully appreciated. I think that a certain number of people believe you have only to establish an airport and then the business is finished. It is nothing of the sort.

The attraction of air travel is speed, and the handicap in this element of speed is the time taken between the airport at which a passenger arrives and his home or the hotel to which he wishes to go. It really is essential to reduce that time and to make access as quick, as convenient and as comfortable as possible. This is not merely a temporary but a permanent feature in air transport. Indeed, the larger the city the greater is the problem. The larger the city inevitably the longer the distance from the airport, and the greater the traffic congestion between the airport and the city centre. I am quite satisfied that Heath Row is the right site for the London Airport. But, by itself, Heath Row is hopelessly inadequate. It is inadequate not only during the long intermediate phase before final completion, but it is inadequate even when the lay-out and the permanent buildings will be complete. Therefore the London Airport must have a reception centre in London.

What are the requirements of a centre of that kind? The first is that there must be quick and easy access to the residential area of the town—the hotel area. The next is that it should be connected with the whole of the underground railway system, tubes and the district railway, and you must have a rapid and constant direct railway service between the airfield and the traffic centre. I am sure that more and more people, with the increased traffic congestion (and that is one of the most insoluble problems in London and the surrounding country) will want to come by train immediately and quickly from the airport at which they land into the centre of the town.

This centre must be large, because you do not want either congestion or delay. It has got to be big enough to receive and despatch or disperse in comfort the travellers by all or, at any rate, by the great majority of the aircraft using the airport. I suppose no one can say with any certainty what the volume of traffic is going to be, but I know on the last occasion when he spoke the Minister envisaged that when Heath Row was fully developed it might work up to something like 160 landings and take-offs, 160 air motions or movements—I think that is the description—in an hour. That means an enormous volume of incoming and outgoing traffic. At the air centre you must have reception rooms for the passengers and proper restaurant facilities. You must have facilities for the Customs. Nothing is more irritating at the end of a very rapid journey than to be interminably delayed by the Customs. That cuts both ways. It means you must have enough Customs officials, and it means you must have plenty of room in which they can work so that people can pass through quickly.

There is another facility which will be required. A large number of air lines will be operating into this country. They will want to deal with their own passengers. Therefore one must have room at the centre for offices for all the airline companies, and plenty of accommodation for all the taxis and motor cars serving the centre, taking people to and fro.

I feel sure that anybody who has studied the needs of air transport in general and of London in particular would not dissent from a single proposition I have advanced, whether in regard to the need for this centre, its character or its size. If it were necessary to find a site and to build, it would be a long and costly business. Indeed, I really do not know where you would find the right site if you had to look for some new building site, and certainly there would be many conflicting claims in building priority. Yet the need is absolutely urgent now. As I have said, Heath Row by itself is quite inadequate, whether now or in the future. I go further than that. I do not think it is putting it too high to say that unless we get the right kind of air centre, unless we start right, we may lose a very great volume of air traffic to this country—air traffic which is essential to our trade and essential to our tourist traffic.

It so happens that there is an ideal centre ready to hand in the Exhibition Building at Earls Court. It is in the ideal position in London. There is quite easy access, down the Cromwell Road and along the big road leading up to it, from all the most important residential parts of London—all the hotel centres. There is tube and district railway communication actually at the door. Moreover, I understand that it would be a comparatively easy matter to connect this Earls Court centre by special underground railway with the London Airport. I believe that would be found essential. I went into all these matters of railway connexions carefully. You have to deal with your railway traffic rapidly. It is no good having people sitting about waiting to be brought in. But London traffic is already so congested on the main line railways that it is quite impossible for them to run these new regular services without a duplication of track, which would mean pulling down houses and would be difficult, socially and economically. It is not possible to use the existing tube railways because not only are they cluttered up with traffic in the rush hours but they are pretty heavily engaged in the ordinary way. If the volume of traffic is anything like the Minister has indicated to us there would be congestion.

Incidentally a great many people go to visit airports. If you go out to La Guardia and other great airports you will find an extraordinary number of people who like to see aeroplanes going up and coming down and circling round. And if you are not too austere and have a decent restaurant—I do not know whether the Minister would run to a Casino—with something to eat and drink in decent surroundings, you would find an enormous number of people who would like to go there. Then there are all the people employed at the aerodrome who would have to be carried out. This railway, which would be running fast special trains to and fro every few minutes, might be in itself a money-maker. It certainly is the only way of serving the airport, and you could perfectly well make such a railway from Heath Row to Earls Court. As to the building there, it is a very big one which could, I am advised, be easily adapted to this purpose. What you have there is a great shell, and it would be perfectly easy to make the necessary adaptations in it, so to speak, to taste.

It seems to me that this is a pretty self-evident proposition. I am bound to deal with what I understand has been raised as an objection to it. I have been told that there are those who say that this building ought to be taken for exhibitions. Well, I have great sympathy with exhibitions. I was one of the promoters of the British Industries Fair a great many years ago, and largely responsible for collecting a very good committee to conduct it for a great many years. But really there is plenty of room elsewhere for exhibitions. There is Olympia, a very large place; there is the White City, where we used to have the exhibitions; and the Crystal Palace is going to be rebuilt. Why should not the Crystal Palace house the exhibitions of the future, reviving the glory and the tradition of the Great Exhibition in the first Crystal Palace? All these exhibitions need not necessarily be in London. I think it was a very wise practice in the past to arrange that the heavy section of British industry had its site in the British industries Fair at Castle Bromwich, Birmingham, near the great Midland centres of heavy engineering and manufacturing. That was a very good plan. I believe it would be a great mistake to bring it to London. There are quite a number of places where these exhibitions could take place, but there is only one centre which is really suited and immediately available for this air service.

Do not let us treat aviation, in regard to this air centre, and trade exhibitions and trade, as if they were disjointed things. Do not let us put them into competition. I believe an efficient and attractive air-service can be one of the best trade-bringers to this country. I have dealt with the whole situation perhaps at some length, because I feel this case ought to be made and justified. I do not like bringing to the House a half-baked proposition. I think it will be agreed that I have not done that, and I hope I may carry your Lordships with me in saying that what I have propounded is something essential, practical and desirable. I very much hope the. Government will seize the opportunity and develop this air centre at Earls Court, because I believe it is indispensable to air traffic. If they do so, I do not believe they could perform a better service for trade. I beg to move for Papers.

5.30 p.m.

LORD HAMPTON

My Lords, before the Minister replies, I wonder if I might put one question to the noble Viscount, the mover of this Motion? Is it in his mind that every traveller who proposes to travel from Heath Row should have to come into London before he can go to the aerodrome and take his seat in the plane? It occurs to me that there will be a large number of people—and as time goes on, a larger number—who will wish to drive straight to the aerodrome from various parts of England without coming into London. There will have to be some alternative arrangement with regard to Customs whatever you have at the main centre.

5.31 p.m.

VISCOUNT SWINTON

My Lords, I felt most passengers would want to come in to London and would probably -find that that was the quickest and most convenient way. Of course, there would be, I take it, alternatives as there are at all aerodromes—and I have taken off from a great many. You could either go out there by train, or in your own motorcar, or by taxi, and then pass through the Customs and board the plane, just as you can drive into Southampton by motor-car, if you are in the New Forest, and board the boat there without going to Waterloo.

LORD FAIRFAX OF CAMERON

had given Notice that he would ask His Majesty's Government "what action is intended to improve the amenities of the London Airport at Heath Row, which at present are totally inadequate," and move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords. I have a similar Motion to that of the noble Viscount on the Order. Paper and it has been suggested to me that it will probably be convenient to your Lordships and to the Minister if I make my speech now.

Heath Row is either now, or very shortly to be, thrown open to the United States Air Lines. I believe there are to be, at any rate to begin with, something like sixteen air liners touching down and taking off each week. That is quite a lot for a beginning, but one hopes that that number will rapidly increase. Heath Row, the London Airport, is becoming, and will become increasingly so, an international airport. But what sort of reception are the passengers going to receive when they arrive there in the immediate future? I went to Heath Row about six weeks or two months ago, and the impression made on my mind by what I saw there has recently been confirmed by a number of representatives of the Press. In this case I think the Press reports coming from trained observers have been of some value.

I shall not detain your Lordships long in relating what I saw, and I shall make no comment on it. The only huts for the accommodation of passengers were those left by the R.A.F.; there were no proper restaurants, bars or waiting rooms; there was no telephone service; there was no car or taxi service, although there was a char-a-banc service, and by that means it takes between forty and fifty minutes to get to the West End of London. There were no extensive paved or covered walks. In some cases on a rainy day it would be necessary for travellers to get their feet muddy. There were no road signs outside, and it was very hard to find one's way to the right place. There were several gates, and one could easily get lost. The buildings—I can hardly call them buildings because they were mere huts—were unsightly, and would not create a good impression. To sum up, there was very little comfort, and this bad state of affairs will undoubtedly get worse when the volume of traffic increases.

This is the main airport of England, the London Airport. Everyone wants to use it, but I believe this state of affairs can only create a bad impression upon those coming to Heath Row, and must inevitably be detrimental to our chances. I know there are plans for building in the future. The noble Lord, Lord Winster, on April 10 of this year in your Lordships' House used these words: When the Airport is complete"— that is the London Airport— it will be worthy in every respect of the heart of the Commonwealth, one which will give a fitting welcome to passengers from abroad, and one which will give wings to the commerce on which our prosperity depends. That will be so in the course of time, but I humbly submit to your Lordships that it is the present that matters. All the countries of the world are building up their reputation in the air, and are trying to get hold of new traffic; they are trying to take as large a share as they can of the passengers travelling by air throughout the world.

Then there is the question of refueling. There are many aircraft on long voyages which have to land somewhere to refuel. The passengers naturally want to have a walk and to have some comfort. I will only say that this island is not necessarily indispensable to the Transatlantic air-route. There is Eire, not so far away, and there is Holland. In Holland there is the K.L.M. which has a reputation of which it is worthy. I submit that amenities five years hence are not going to be of any use, because we shall have lost passengers in the meantime, and it will take a long time to make good our reputation, which may be damaged so badly that the task will be a very heavy one indeed.

I have tried to paint a fair picture of the situation. There are many difficulties, but this matter is vital and important to the country as a whole. Even if it is not possible to put the whole matter right, surely one can put some part of it right. Even a small part would help. I do not intend to cast any aspersions on the Victory celebrations, but surely the cost of putting up a few temporary buildings and putting this matter right, even for a time, would amount to only a small fraction of what is being spent on the Victory celebrations, with due deference to our great victory. I am not using this as an opportunity for a dig at the Government, because it is a national matter, but I am very glad of this opportunity of drawing the Minister's attention to a matter which concerns us all and our country.

5.38 p.m.

LORD STRABOLGI

My Lords, I am sure that I am speaking for all your Lordships in congratulating Lord Fairfax on the very moderate and well-phrased speech we have just heard. If he will allow me to say so, I wish he would intervene more often in our debates; I am sure it would be of great advantage to this House if he did. I gave notice to my noble friend that I wanted to raise a cognate matter, to which a number of us attach great importance. It was touched on very briefly by the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, in introducing his Motion, and I also referred to it the last time we discussed landing grounds and aerodromes in this country. It is the question of how to get to Heath Row and how to get away from it.

I do not know whether my noble friend has yet got his helicopter, but I can assure him that if he has not got his helicopter, or perhaps some means of alighting on or taking off from the Thames, he will have great difficulty in getting to Heath Row in anything like the forty minutes which Lord Fairfax mentioned, if he is coming from his offices in the district of the Strand. The truth of the matter is that there are two appalling bottle-necks in the western exits from London. One is at Hammersmith, and the other is at Shepherds Bush. You have to go through one or the other—at least I have never discovered any other way—if you want to get out west to Heath Row. Unless something is done to improve traffic facilities, we are going to have an unholy scandal.

I believe my noble friend understands this, and I have every sympathy with him. It is not exactly his bailliewick, it is also a matter for the Ministry of Transport; I think I would say it is a matter for the whole Government. But he will get the blame because that is the sad part of politics. People who come to Heath Row, and then take twice as long to get from Heath Row to the Strand as they have taken to get from Paris to Heath Row, will ask, "Who is the Minister for Civil Aviation in this country?" and they will talk to the Press and there will be trouble.

Of course, this scandal of the western exits from London has been with us for years. It has been shirked by Government after Government and sooner or later will have to be dealt with, but that is too long a process for the present situation. Viscount Swinton mentioned the railways, and I mentioned the railways last time. From further inquiries I understand that there is no real alternative to a special electric line to Heath Row, and there would probably have to be about four lines. I agree with the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, when he talks about Earls Court, but I understand it is earmarked for exhibitions, though our Air Lines are in the nature of a continuous exhibition. He talks about the need for Customs facilities, and Lord Hampton also referred to Customs facilities. The best plan, I think, is for them to be provided in the train itself. We always used to have our baggage examined in the trains before the last war on the way from the coast to London, and that is the obvious way. That can be done on the electric trains, and it is I understand, the most economical way of using Customs officials. I do hope that this matter is going to be pressed and that your. Lordships will support me in this particular point about the need for improving the transport facilities out to Heath Row and back again. I have only seen the photographs of London Airport; up till now I have only heard about it. I funk the journey as things are now. What it will be like when petrol rationing comes off I do not know.

The only other matter I would venture to mention in passing is that also referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Hampton. I get the feeling—and I get it every time I hear the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, speak on air matters even more strongly—that we are going to suffer from over-centralization at Heath Row, I do not see why everyone is supposed to want to come to London who travels by air. My noble friend from Oxford, Lord Lindsay, apparently agrees too. I submit it will be found necessary in the future to have several great aerodromes like Heath Row in the Midlands, the north and the northeast.

VISCOUNT ELIBANK

Prestwick, for instance.

LORD STRABOLGI

Yes, but I am not domiciled in Scotland, and there are plenty who will fight for that facility. I am frightened of opening that Scottish question myself. The point is, I do hope it will be realized in the future, when we engage in our long-term plan that we will need other great aerodromes not necessarily near London at all but to serve the Midlands and the north, especially when we are going to use aircraft much more for the carriage of freight: and goods. With regard to the mails, that is of the utmost importance. We already have the Post Office tube through London and I should have thought that could have been extended to Heath Row. When hundreds of aircraft, with half of them carrying mail are landing daily, something of that sort will, I submit, have to be provided.

When the noble Viscount; Lord Swinton, talks about swishing passengers from Heath Row to wherever they want to go, I would like to remark that the mails are also important. An increasing tonnage of goods will also have to be taken care of and at present they will not be able to be handled satisfactorily. This is a most serious matter and I make no apologies for bringing the matter to my noble friend's attention. With regard to the great ideals of the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, I must say I do not know that he was able to do much planning in this way himself when he was Minister for Civil Aviation. I suppose he could have pleaded the war and my noble friend can plead lack of labour and material, but some of the difficulties from which we are now suffering were owing to lack of foresight or lack of influence to carry them through when my noble friend's predecessor was in office.

5.45 p.m.

LORD SHERWOOD

My Lords, there is only one word I would like to say on this. I do not think we ought to be so despondent at the suggestion that Heath Row is a failure, as many noble Lords seem to think it is. After all, Heath Row was born because the Air Ministry had the idea of using it as an aerodrome for the Air Force. That was the only thing which enabled us to get it through, and make no mistake about it. It is now going to become a very important place.

VISCOUNT SWINTON

I was not crabbing Heath Row at all.

LORD SHERWOOD

Many people are crabbing the Minister of Civil Aviation because of what is happening at Heath Row. What happened at Heath Row was that it was never a civil aviation port. It was an Air Ministry airport, one which the Royal Air Force built and developed, and one for which I was responsible as the Minister at that time. Of course it has had difficulties. It is not easy for the Minister now to turn from the military side to the civil side, but I do hope that people will realize that Heath Row was thought out by the Air Ministry not only as a Royal Air Force place, but also as a civil airport in the future and that is why they went forward with it. I admit the Minister has many difficulties to contend with, but I am quite certain that the view we took when we developed it was right, and that the difficulties with which we have to deal now are difficulties we landed on him because it was built as a Royal Air Force place for Transport Command. It has now become, as the noble Lord has said, a civil aviation airport. Civil aviation needs other amenities. I have no doubt that under the Minister these will come. But it is not easy when you develop one thing to change it to another, and I still think that the decision to develop Heath Row was a wise decision.

5.48 p.m.

LORD SEMPILL

My Lords, I would like to support the suggestion which has been put forward by my noble friend on this issue of the terminal point for passengers. At lunch to-day I was talking with my noble friend Viscount Knollys and he was pointing out that in New York the area now available is too small. As the present terminus cannot be enlarged, another one has to be built. I therefore hope the Minister may give some indication of what may be done with Earls Court. I very strongly support the suggestions put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Fairfax. The Minister certainly has a great opportunity of providing what has never existed in this country before, that is, facilities for those who travel by air in parallel with the excellent facilities provided in other countries. Heretofore we have never had facilities parallel with those provided in other countries. The points raised by the noble Lord are very good points and the Minister has a great opportunity, of which I am sure he will take full advantage, of seeing that those facilities are provided in a manner which leaves no ground for anything but complete praise.

When the Minister replies I wonder if he could indicate whether something can be done to improve the travel facilities which exist at the moment at Croydon for those passengers coming from Eire. They are put into very unsuitable accommodation, where they are detained for a goodly period of time, and harried by a large number of official regulations. That is immensely different from the excellent facilities which are provided at the other end in Eire where they are put into very good accommodation, and where officialdom is extremely kind in helping passengers rather than, as at Croydon, in harrying them and making their journey a considerable burden.

5.50 p.m.

THE MINISTER OF CIVIL AVIATION (LORD WINSTER)

My Lords, the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, has certainly brought forward a matter of great importance and very considerable interest, and I say at once that I completely agree with the general tenor of his remarks. I do not think I could find anything in his speech with which I was in disagreement, because I agree that you have not done all when you have constructed your airport. Of course I agree that it is essential to reduce the time of transport from the airport to the passengers' destination, and that rapid handling of passengers through the Customs and other authorities is most important. With the noble Viscount's description of what is required at a reception centre, I am also in full agreement, and I concur in much that he says about the advantages of Earls Court. I agree that the airport will certainly attract a great number of sight-seers. My plans cater for those sight-seers, and I look forward to them as a considerable source of revenue. As regards the noble Viscount's Motion, on the question of the necessity for establishing a central depôt in London I may say that it is the intention of the Corporations to establish such a central depôt which they, and most of the foreign air-lines for whom they act as traffic handling agents, will use. It is, of course, a matter for the Corporations and no: for the Government to provide such a depôt. I say at once that the actual arrangements to be made are still inevitably indeterminate.

The merits of Earls Court as a central depôt are recognised, including its spacious accommodation and its convenient location, in relation not only to the London Airport but to Northolt. The Government would have been very willing to have seen Earls Court used for this purpose, but for the overriding need to have adequate space in the immediate future for the British Industries Fair and other trade exhibitions. Such exhibitions, I am sure it will be agreed, are of vital importance in connexion with the Government's plans for the expansion of our export trade. Earls Court together with Olympia represents the only accommodation capable of providing sufficient space for the British Industries Fair.

VISCOUNT SWINTON

The White City.

LORD WINSTER

That has been taken into consideration and my statement stands. The holding of this Fair in 1947 was announced as long ago as June, 1945, and since then firms have been planning to ensure that the Fair plays a full part in raising the volume of our export trade. Other equally important trade exhibitions must also be provided for. It would clearly be impossible to construct any large new exhibition building in the time available. Unless Earls Court is available, the British Industries Fair cannot take place in 1947, and a number of other important trade exhibitions cannot be held. Negotiations for the use of Earls Court for the Fair are well advanced. A difficult decision as between two very desirable objectives has had to be taken in this matter having regard, on the one hand, to the importance of trade fairs in relation to the export trade, and, on the other, to the importance of an adequate central depôt for civil air transport. The advantages on either side have been carefully weighed, and it is clear that, whatever arrangements may be made for the future, Earls Court must be reserved for exhibitions planned for 1947.

The Corporations are actively engaged in considering short-term plans for supplementing, the inadequate accommodation provided in London by the Airways Terminal at Victoria, to meet the situation until such time as permanent arrangements for a central depôt can be decided upon and carried out. The Airways Terminal at Victoria can handle only 800 passengers a day, and we are thinking in terms of 3,000 passengers a day next year. That illustrates the extreme urgency of the problem upon which the noble Viscount has rightly laid stress. In the remarks made by my noble friend sitting behind me, I recall that he asked me how I am getting on with my helicopter. I have not got one yet. I flew in one the other day, and I can assure your Lordships that I will stimulate and encourage the development of the helicopter by any means which are open to me as Minister of Civil Aviation.

My noble friend was very kind and solicitous on my behalf. He foresaw troubles ahead and said that I would get the blame whether I deserved blame or not. Well, my back is broad, and that like the noble Viscount I long ago discovered that a Minister of Civil Aviation is "born to trouble as the sparks fly upward." As regards what my noble friend said about centralization, our plans envisage the provision of airports at provincial centres. As to mails, that is certainly a most important matter, and I have it under discussion with my noble friend the Postmaster-General. With respect to what my noble friend said about Customs, certainly it is an ideal arrangement if Customs can be cleared on the train. But a fast train from London Airport to the centre of London would take only fifteen or twenty minutes in transit. That is too short a time to clear the Customs and the other controls. Careful consideration has been given to that problem, and in general I entirely agree with my noble friend, but where the London Airport is concerned it is impracticable, as I am sure he will agree.

VISCOUNT ELIBANK

The noble Lord has spoken about airports in provincial centres. Does he include Scotland as a provincial centre of England?

LORD WINSTER

I fear that my life would not be worth a moment's purchase if I were to do anything of that sort. Will the noble Viscount allow me to correct my remark and say that we have a scheduled plan of internal air services in this country which will call for the provision of suitable airports in the requisite parts of the United Kingdom. May I now turn to the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Fairfax of Cameron. At the outset I would like to say that I am very much obliged to the noble Lord for consenting to roll up his Motion with another and so facilitate your Lordships' convenience and also my task.

I agree with the noble Lord that it is the present time that matters. But when he said that I think perhaps he did not take full account of the difficulties that arise from the labour situation and the situation in regard to building. I could not agree with him more in what he says, but I am only the Minister of Civil Aviation; I am not Aladdin. I cannot rub a lamp and cause terminal buildings to arise out of the ground overnight. The difficulties are very formidable indeed.

The existing amenities at London Airport, I fully agree, are not such as I would wish to have at this important terminal. I have, however, agreed to open the Airport to international traffic on May 31, and to designate it from that date. My original intention was to keep the Airport closed to international traffic until the first three runways were ready for use, and until sufficient adaptations and additions to the hutted traffic-handling buildings erected by the R.A.F. had been completed. That was my original intention, but the American operators strongly pressed me to get the use of the Airport at an earlier date. They were made fully aware of the exiguous facilities available, but they said that they were prepared to accept the existing conditions at London Airport as they find them. I understand their reasons perfectly.

There is a natural dissatisfaction amongst operators with Hurn, because of its inconvenient location. Their desire to bring passengers as close to London as possible makes existing conditions at London Airport acceptable for the time being. Only one runway will be available for use until July, but otherwise the operational facilities, as distinct from the accommodation, will be adequate. British South American Airways have been using London Airport since January 1, 1946. On the day that we took it over from the Royal Air Force the first service took off for South America and since then, in face of great difficulties, the service has been built up into one which, I assure the noble Lord, is a source of great admiration in South America at this moment, and is adding very greatly to our prestige in that country.

British Overseas Airways Corporation intend to transfer their service from Hurn to London Airport at the end of this month. By the middle of June, I am advised, the transfer should be complete. Hurn will still be used for maintenance and other purposes. I can say that everything possible in the circumstances is being done at London Airport for the comfort of the passengers. I am sure that they will accept any inconvenience which they may encounter at the Airport, for the sake of a far shorter journey to town than from Hurn. I take this opportunity of thanking the Customs and immigration and medical control services for their whole-hearted co-operation with us in our efforts, by agreeing to improvise on a large scale. The difficulties now being experienced at London Airport are only a passing phase. Work on the adaptations is being pressed on as fast as the difficult labour situation permits. More comfortable accommodation will be available in wooden buildings in the course of the summer.

In the general effort to make the Airport available for use in advance of the target date, sight has not been lost of certain small but important matters which mean so much to passengers' convenience. I refer to such things as snack bars, telephones, cable facilities, cars for hire, and so forth. These facilities will not be found on a grandiose scale, but they will at least meet immediate needs. Once these immediate needs have been met, attention can be given to further adaptations and extensions to meet the growth of traffic as it occurs. I must, however, utter a word of warning about long-term permanent buildings. It is very easy for ill-informed critics to say that the permanent terminal buildings ought to be ready now, or at any rate fairly soon. I do not think such critics realize the magnitude and complexity of such a building. Nor, perhaps, do they always count the cost of hasty design of something which, if wrongly designed, may be inadequate or out of date in a few years. The Government wish the permanent building to be worthy of London Airport. I have been told that the east-west runway already constructed is the finest in the world. The Government want the building equally to be the finest in the world.

The needs of all users have to be studied in detail, and that study is going on. Much study of a general character has already been completed. I have arranged that one of my technical officers should visit America in order to learn from experience there and to gather ideas. The functional relationship between the various technical services must be carefully provided for in the design, and the whole edifice must be functionally efficient and of the highest artistic merit. It is an immense problem. We have to cater for a passenger- flow which may reach 8,000 persons a day as early as 1951, and will thereafter go on expanding. When one reflects how much time was occupied before the war—under normal conditions and without the shortage of labour and the competing demands of housing—in the design and extension of major architectural and engineering works, such as the great new railway termini, I think your Lordships will realize that the permanent terminal building at the London Airport cannot possibly be completed for some years.

May I for a moment refer to what my noble friend said about access. My right honourable friend the Minister of Transport and myself are quite alive—as I am sure my noble friend knows—to the need for improving access to the Airport. We fully realize that the advantage of air travel, especially in regard to speed, will be seriously prejudiced by failure to pro vide quick means of travel to and from London. The Bath Road will have to be diverted to the west before the Airport is fully developed, and the Minister of Transport has plans for improving road access all the way from the Airport to London. The details will be announced by the Minister of Transport at the appropriate time. As regards rail access, the merits of express passenger services are fully recognized, but no detailed consideration can be given to these until the site of the central London depôt has been determined.

I entirely agree with the noble Viscount. The two things are linked up. Delay in one must inevitably mean delay in the other. I think I have made it clear that the delays are inevitable. Obviously the railway station ought to be in close proximity to the site of the central London depôt. The extension of the underground railway beyond Hounslow West to the airport is now under active consideration. Such an extension would be valuable for employees and perhaps also for the sightseers whom we look forward to welcoming at London Airport in very large numbers.

In saying one word about the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Sherwood, I am sure that I echo the feelings of all your Lordships when I say how glad we are to see him back in his place after a short period of indisposition. I must tell the noble Lord that either it has happened since he went away, or he has forgotten during his absence, that Heath Row is no more. It is now London Airport. Of course, the noble Lord hit the nail on the head. The difficulties with which we are confronted and the handicaps with which we are confronted at London Airport are all inherent in the origin of the airport. These obstacles and handicaps exist. We cannot whittle them away, but I am quite sure that the noble Lord, who, as he told us to-day, originated London Airport will be very proud indeed as time goes on of what his baby has developed into.

The noble Lord, Lord Sempill, complained about the facilities at Croydon. The noble Lord has experience of these matters, and he must know that owing to the war exigencies, Croydon is being used under a pressure for which of course it never was designed. Personally, I think that it reflects great credit on all who are concerned in handling traffic at Croydon, that Croydon does handle the volume of traffic that it is doing at the present moment. When the noble Lord talks about officials harrying people, I think we really ought to deprecate language of that sort. I have no doubt that under the pressure and the circumstances in which we are working, passengers most unfortunately do have to suffer many inconveniences, which we would like to see removed, and which we are working very hard indeed to remove. But I am quite sure that no officials, in the words of the noble Lord, harry passengers. On the contrary, my experience has been that they do all they can, under very difficult circumstances, to minimize the inconveniences which they regret they have to inflict upon passengers under existing circumstances.

I think this short debate has been of value. I will not detain your Lordships any longer at this hour, but may I say to the noble Lord, Lord Fairfax, that I welcome very much the interest which he and so many noble Lords are kind enough to show in this matter. It is a great help to me, and what is more important, it is a great help to civil aviation. I am always available to the noble Lord or to any other noble Lords, and so are the officials of my Ministry, to give any information on this matter which it is in my power to give. I have not shirked the matter. I am fully facing up to all the difficulties which are involved. I can only say that, so far as those who are connected with civil aviation at the present moment are concerned, it is really not a question of what they would do; they know only too well what requires to be done, and how willingly they would do it. It is at the present moment a question of what we can do with the limited resources at our disposal owing to the existing situation with regard to labour and building materials. But we will certainly do everything in our power to press on with our plan to get rid of these inconveniences and difficulties at the earliest possible moment.

6.12 p.m.

VISCOUNT SWINTON

My Lords, I sincerely thank the Minister for his full and frank answer. I am sure he will not be surprised if I tell him that I cannot call it an altogether satisfactory one. It has not satisfied me. I do not suppose it has satisfied many of your Lordships and I am quite sure it has not satisfied the Minister himself. Indeed, the Minister was good enough to say that he accepted every argument I advanced, with regard to the necessity for the centre, what it ought to contain, all its features and of Earls Court being an ideal place. He said with commendable frankness that he had not the least idea where he or the company (I believe he is the company now, or is going to to be very soon—two of them are going to exist, and he is the other) are going to find a place to lay the weary heads of their passengers. I really do hope he will return to the charge, and that he will not take this lying down.

With regard to buildings for exhibitions, at a time when we did a very great export trade, and when there was great competition, we managed to hold a very satisfactory British Industries Fair in Olympia and at the White City, and there was the big exhibition at Castle Bromwich in the Midlands. There is the Crystal Palace site. I do not know how much there is of the Crystal Palace standing, but it is quite possible to put up exhibition buildings, not of bricks, which are wanted, but of quick construction. Of course you have to weigh these things, but, when there is absolute need for civil aviation to have a centre of this kind—there being no other possibility except this site either available or in sight or in the dim distance while there are other places where exhibitions can be held—quite frankly I think it is a wrong decision not to give this place to civil aviation. I hope that the Minister will not take it lying down, but will go back and fight for it.

Now that we know what it is all about, it would seem that his chief opponent is in India and is not too well at the moment. We are sorry about that and most sincerely hope that he will soon be restored to health. Nevertheless, in view of that fact, the Minister has got a very good chance. I hope that he will fight for this, because it is a good case. I hope that he will return to the charge. I beg to withdraw my Motion.

Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.