§ THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DOMINION AFFAIRS (VISCOUNT ADDISON) had given Notice to move to resolve, That in view of the practical difficulties in which members of this House are involved in present circumstances in regular attendance to their Parliamentary duties owing to the high cost of travelling, they should be entitled to recover the cost of railway fares incurred in respect of such duties. The noble Viscount said: My Lords, the Motion standing in my name is one which, I am advised, should be put in this form in order, if your Lordships approve, that the matter should be put into regular train. Your Lordships may remember that it is two years ago this month that I myself, at the request of members from different parts of the House, put down a Motion more or less in these words. It was accepted by the House, but since then various occasions for delay, to which I need not refer in detail, have presented themselves. Some time ago the noble Viscount who leads the Opposition, Viscount Cranborne, and the noble Earl, the Earl of Rosebery, put down Motions on the Paper to draw renewed attention to the subject, and at my particular request they very kindly agreed to have those Motions 334 put in the category of "No Day Named." I am now in a position to announce, however, that, if your Lordships are willing to accept my present Motion, His Majesty's Government will take the necessary steps to give effect to it. It will, of course, be necessary, in an appropriate form, to obtain the authority of the House of Commons (this is a Motion affecting money) but I can assure your Lordships that I do not anticipate that there will be any undue delay if the Motion is approved in this House this afternoon.
§ I have only one or two points to make in respect of the Motion. In the first place it will be recalled, and I am sure will be agreed, that when the matter was discussed before—in fact I think it was implicit in the terms of the noble Viscount's Motion and also that of the noble Earl—it was anticipated that if a step of this kind were taken it should be administered in a form that ensured it applied bona fide to members of the House attending the business of the House. Nobody wishes that it should be used to provide free trips to London for people who are not doing their duty as members of your Lordships' House. I am sure that in saying that I am speaking for everybody. That is why the word "regular" is in the form of the Motion. But of course this will be administered, I am sure, with good sense by the officers of the House. In these times of financial stringency, many of your Lordships, I have no doubt, well-to-do as you are reputed to be, appreciate the fact that these railway charges are considerable items, particularly to those living a long way from London. I think it is only fair and right that a charge of this kind which now falls on members of the House and of the Legislature when they are doing their duty should be borne by the State. That is the basis of the Motion. It will be interpreted and applied, I know, for the purposes for which it is provided. I think it is fair in itself and that it is right and proper that it should be dealt with. I, therefore, commend the Motion to your Lordships.
§ Moved to resolve, That in view of the practical difficulties in which members of this House are involved in present circumstances in regular attendance to their Parliamentary duties owing to the high cost of travelling, they should be entitled to 335 recover the cost of railway fares incurred in respect of such duties.—)Viscount Addison.)
§ 2.36 p.m.
§ VISCOUNT SWINTONMy Lords, I am sure that the Motion and the speech of the noble Viscount the Leader of the House will be warmly welcomed in all quarters of the House. This is one of the matters on which we can certainly all agree. These charges are a very heavy burden on many members of this House, especially those who are most regular in their attendance. In the particular case of those who come from furthest afield (my noble friend, the Earl of Rosebery will have a word to say about the Scottish Representative Peers in a moment), they find that it is a really tremendous burden to-day. We are not all rich men. Riches are something to which the doctrine of relativity certainly applies to-day. It is certainly very hard that this expense should weigh most heavily on those who are most regular in their attendance in this House.
It is not merely as if people were going home. A great many of the members of this House who are most assiduous and regular in their attendance, also discharge many public duties in their own localities. Indeed, many of us have to do quite as much in that way as we did in our constituencies when we were members of the House of Commons. That, I think, is an added reason why we should accept this proposal.
On behalf of those who sit on this side of the House, I endorse fully what the noble Viscount, the Leader of the House, has said. This is only doing what is right by those who are regular in their attendance here to discharge their duties. I am glad that the words "regular attendance to their Parliamentary duties" have been put in the Motion. That again has always been common ground between us. Therefore, I most warmly welcome this proposal, and I reiterate that I am grateful to the noble Viscount for what he has said in putting it before the House. We all know the trouble that he has taken about this matter, and that adds to the debt of gratitude which we owe to him. Particularly are we pleased by his assurance that there will be no delay once the decision of your Lordships' House has been given.
§ 2.38 p.m.
§ VISCOUNT SAMUELMy Lords, this matter has been under discussion for quite a long time, and I am very glad that the Government are able to take action now. There is, of course, no question of the House desiring that any salaries should be paid to its members. Any proposal to that effect would be unwelcome generally throughout the House, at all events so long as it remains constituted as at present. But while noble Lords are very ready to serve the community without remuneration, on the other hand it is something of a grievance that they should be required, in many cases, to be out of pocket on account of that service. We know that many companies make it a practice to pay fees to their directors for their attendance at board meetings, but I do not know of any company which requires that the directors should pay a fine for the privilege of their attendance. But that inverted principle is one which, in fact, applies to your Lordships' attendance in this House. In the changed times in which we live, the sums involved, especially for those coming from great distances, are not insignificant. Even your Lordships' gross incomes are not so very gross, while the net income of all of us varies from the moderate to the exiguous. At the same time, the cost of travel, particularly for noble Lords from Scotland and other distant places, is somewhat high, and, in all the circumstances of the case, the time is ripe, and more than ripe, for this change to be effected. We are grateful to the Government for now taking effective action.
§ 2.39 p.m.
§ THE EARL OF ROSEBERYMy Lords, having put down a Motion asking for the payment of expenses for the elected Representative Peers of Scotland, I should like to thank the noble Viscount, Lord Addison, for bringing forward this Motion. I know he himself has taken the greatest possible trouble over this matter, and that it has caused him a great deal of labour to get this Motion put forward. The noble Viscount mentioned the words in the Motion that Peers should be "in regular attendance" to their Parliamentary duties. I am quite sure that the noble Viscount, the Leader of the House, does not mean that their attendance should be regular arithmetically, because there are a certain number of Peers, especially in 337 Scotland, who are fully occupied with local authority matters, and other concerns of their own district. They may want to come here for a particular Bill.
It would be harmful to the working of the local authorities if these Peers had to come down here two or three days a week, just to make their quota in order to get their expenses paid. I am quite sure that the noble Viscount, the Leader of the House, would agree that any Peer, who happens to be particularly interested in certain Bills, can make representations to the Government through the usual channels—I suppose the Government Whip or the Opposition Whip—to enable him to receive some latitude as regards his attendance. That would be particularly important for the people in Scotland. Originally, my Motion was to apply to the elected Representative Peers of Scotland. As I am not an elected representative I am especially pleased that the noble Viscount the Leader of the House has been able to include all Peers.
§ 2.42 p.m.
§ VISCOUNT ADDISONMy Lords, In reply to the question put by the noble Earl we have these considerations fully in mind, and I am quite sure they will be fairly dealt with, through the usual channels that he mentions.
§ LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGHCan the railway fare be stretched to include a sleeping berth? I am not quite sure whether it does or not, but I think it would not be unreasonable.
§ VISCOUNT ADDISONIt is intended that railway fares should include sleeping berths.
§ On Question, Motion agreed to.