Lords Sitting of 28 March 1946

Preamble
The House met at four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers.
The Lord Sudley (E. Arran)—Took the Oath.
The Earl of Cranbrook—Took the Oath.

ACQUISITION OF LAND (AUTHORISATION PROCEDURE) BILL.
Brought from the Commons, read 1a, and to be printed.

LICENSING PLANNING (TEMPORARY PROVISIONS) BILL. [H.L.]
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD JOWITT): My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to enable parts of licensing districts to be included in certain cases in licensing planning areas constituted under the Licensing Planning (Temporary Provisions) Act, 1945, and to make further provision as to licensing planning committees under the said Act and sub-committees thereof. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932 (BOROUGH OF LUTON ORDER).
LORD WALKDEN: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name.
Moved, That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department under the Act, for extending Section of the Act to the Borough of Luton, and laid before this House on Tuesday last, be approved.—(Lord Walkden.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932 (URBAN DISTRICT OF OTLEY ORDER).
LORD WALKDEN: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name.
Moved, That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department under the Act, for extending Section 1 of the Act to the Urban District of Otley, and laid before this House on Tuesday last, be approved.—(Lord Walkden.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

POLICE BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[The VISCOUNT MERSEY in the Chair.]
Clause 1 agreed to.
Clause 2:
Adjustment of rates in consequence of abolition of non-county borough police forces.
2. Where the Secretary of State is satisfied that the amount of the rate required to be raised by the council of a non-county borough will be substantially increased by reason of the inclusion of the borough in the county police area under the provisions of this Act, he may by order direct that the provisions of the First Schedule to this Act shall apply in relation to the county in which the borough is comprised, and those provisions shall apply accordingly.
THE EARL OF CRANBROOK THE EARL OF CRANBROOK moved, after the word "increased," to insert "or decreased." The noble Earl said: This Amendment raises a small but not unimportant point. As your Lordships are aware, almost every Bill which entails the taking over by some local authority of part of the area or some of the functions of another contains some provision for differential rating, as does this Bill in this clause. But in this clause the differential rating is only one way. It is provided that if the rates of one of the former police authorities are raised, certain adjustments shall be made. It is not provided that if the rates are decreased, thereby entailing some additional burden on the rest of the county, equal provision shall be made for adjustment.
The Education Act, 1944, was very similar in some respects to this Bill, and under it some Part III local authorities had some of their duties taken over by county councils. In other cases certain fresh authorities were made to correspond with the old Part III authorities. There was provision for it to work both ways. I suggest that it would be fairer if similar provision were made in this Bill. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 33, after ("increased") insert ("or decreased").—(The Earl of Cranbrook.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Frankly, I do not very much like this Amendment. I rather wish that the County Councils' Association, who I think probably inspired it, had not done so. They did not bring it forward in another place, and of course it may raise some question of Privilege. But that is no reason why your Lordships should not deal with it if you so desire. I know how local government bodies feel about these things. I remember well a dramatic phrase which was used to me by the Rural District Councils' Association, who were relieved, more or less, some years ago of the burden of looking; after their roads. They referred to it, and they still do, as having been "robbed of their roads." Now we are dealing with the question of non-county boroughs and the police. The non-county boroughs, I am afraid, are saying that they are going to be robbed of their police.
But what is the true position? Compare the two rates—because they are both special rates. You may have a non-county borough where the police rate at the present time is, let us say, 7d. and that non-county borough may be situated in a county where the police rate is 10d. Under those circumstances, not only do you take away from the non-county borough their police, but you make them in the future pay not a rate of 7d. but a rate of 10d. In those circumstances we thought it right to soften the blow by saying that they should not have to pay the whole extra 3d. at once, but should pay one-quarter of the 3d. in the first year, one half of it in the second year, three-quarters of it in the third year, and finally come to the full 10d. That, as I think the noble Earl will agree, is the provision that we have. Now, he says (I see the logic of it) "Con-
438
sider the thing the other way." You may have a case where in a non-county borough the police rate is 10d., and the county rate is 7d. The result of removing the police from the non-county borough is, of course, to relieve them from the burden of a rod rate, and substitute instead a rate of 7d.—or 7d. very slightly increased. But just consider the non-county boroughs, and how they will look at it. They will say: "Not only have you robbed us of our police, but you are in effect fining us, you are continuing to make us pay the extra sum, not because we have a police force, but because we used to have one. Consequently, you say, we have to make higher contributions to the county rate for the benefit of county boroughs that do not have police forces." I do not like that very much. If we are doing what the County Councils' Association have always wanted, taking away the police from the non-county boroughs and putting them under the county authorities themselves, I think that the county councils should be prepared to relieve the non-county boroughs whose forces are taken away from any extra contributions in respect of their once having had police forces.
I must say to the noble Earl that I know the County Councils' Association very well. I had many negotiations with them in the past. I night have said to them in this connexion: "You are taking these forces away, and we want to ease the burden as much as we can. I really do not think it is very wise that you, as an association, should press that these unfortunate people who are losing their police forces should also have to make some additional contribution. That, indeed, is adding insult to injury." I cannot help feeling that if I put that to the County Councils' Association, they would not press the point which is contained in this Amendment. As I have said, they did not raise it in another place, and I very much hope that in order that this may work smoothly and happily, the noble Earl will see his way not to press it now.
THE EARL OF CRANBROOK: I must confess that I am not very much impressed with the arguments of the noble and learned Lord. In point of fact, as I said just now, in an Act passed as recently as 1944 an exactly similar position arose when the Part III education authorities were in many cases having

439
their functions transferred to the county councils. In respect of a number of cases the provision I am suggesting was in fact inserted in the Education Bill.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Will the noble Earl forgive me? He will remember that in that case the equalization does not begin to apply unless the discrepancy exceeds sixpence. In this case the highest discrepancy will be three farthings.
THE EARL OF CRANBROOK: I think in some of the Kentish non-county boroughs the discrepancy will be greater than three farthings. Some of them are gaining both on the swings and the roundabouts. I do not want to press this very strongly but I should like to ask the noble and learned Lord to give this further consideration before the next stage. It is not for the county councils that I speak so much as for the other districts in the county who in fact have got to pay the rates of these police authorities. It is the county districts upon whom it falls and not the county councils.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am always quite ready to consider matters but I really do not hold out any hope that I can change my opinion. There is no case in which the burden on the county can exceed three farthings and I think it is probable that there is no case in which it will exceed a halfpenny. I will look at the matter again but I do not hold out much hope of changing my mind.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
Clause 2 agreed to.
Clause 3:
Voluntary schemes for the amalgamation of county and county borough police forces.
3.—(1) If it appears to the police authorities for any two or more police areas being counties or county boroughs that it is expedient that those areas should be amalgamated for police purposes, they may for that purpose submit to the Secretary of State a scheme (hereinafter referred to as an "amalgamation scheme") and the Secretary of State may by order approve any scheme so submitted to him.
(2) Subject to the provisions of this Act, an amalgamation scheme shall make provision with respect to the following matters, that is to say:
(e) the transfer to the combined police authority of such property, rights and lia-
440
bilities of the constituent authorities (being property, rights and liabilities held or incurred in connexion with the constituent forces) as may be determined by or under the scheme, or the use by the combined police authority of any such property;
4.12 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved in subsection (2) (e), to leave out "in connexion with the constituent forces" and insert "for police purposes." The noble and learned Lord said: This Amendment is a little more than a drafting Amendment but only a very little more. It proposes to leave out the words "in connexion with the constituent forces" and to insert the words "for police purposes." If I read out these words I cannot help feeling that the words I am proposing to insert have more resemblance to the language of Shakespeare than the words I am proposing to leave out. I do not at all like the phrase "constituent forces" and "police purposes" straightforward English. To take an example of this, Canterbury as your Lordships know is a county borough of Kent. At the present moment owing to the amalgamation scheme which is in force the Canterbury police station is being used by the Kent constabulary. So it may be that Canterbury is not one of the constituent forces. That being so it is felt better to use this wording if, as is possible, there is an amalgamation scheme between Canterbury and Kent which would merge the two on a permanent basis instead of as at present on a merely temporary basis. At present the police station belongs to the Canterbury Corporation and it is desirable that that police station shall become the property of the new police force which would be the combined force for Canterbury and Kent. So we think that the words "for police purposes" would be desirable instead of "constituent forces" since Canterbury would be one of the constituent forces. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 21, leave out ("in connexion with the constituent forces)") and insert ("for police purposes)").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 4:
Power of Secretary of State to make amalgamation schemes.
4.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this section, if it appears to the Secretary of State that it is expedient in the interests of efficiency that an amalgamation scheme should be made for any such police areas as foresaid, and no scheme satisfactory to him has been submitted to him by the police authorities for those areas under the last fore-going section, the Secretary of State may for that purpose by order make such scheme as he considers expedient, and the provisions of the last foregoing section shall apply in relation to any such scheme as they apply in relation to schemes made under that section;
Provided that where the population of a county or county borough, as estimated by the Registrar General, is one hundred thousand or upwards, then except with the consent of the council of the county or borough, no scheme shall be made by the Secretary of State under this section for the amalgamation of the county or borough with any police area or areas of which the population or aggregate population, as so estimated, exceeds that of the county or borough.
4.15 p.m.
LORD LLEWELLIN LORD LLEWELLIN moved, in the proviso to subsection (1), to leave out the words "of which the population or aggregate population, as so estimated, exceeds that of the county or borough." The noble Lord said: The clause to which I am moving this Amendment is the one under which the Secretary of State may make amalgamation schemes, but a proviso says that he cannot make such a scheme if the population of a county or borough is estimated by the Registrar-General as 100,000 or upwards. Then he can only do it with the consent of the borough unless that borough is going to be amalgamated with a police area of which the population, or aggregate population, does not exceed that of the county or borough. If it exceeds that of the county or borough the consent of the larger authority has got to be obtained but if the large borough has a population which exceeds that of the area in which it is going to be amalgamated its consent no longer has to be obtained. I realize that this proviso was inserted as an Amendment in another place to the original Bill and I am really asking for information why consent should be necessary in one case and not in the other. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 33, leave out from (" areas ") to end of line 35.—(Lord Llewwllin.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I can best answer the noble Lord by an illus-
442
tration. I will take an illustration I have used several times, that of Canterbury and Kent. We are dealing here, of course, with the powers of a Secretary of State to make an amalgamation. Kent has a population of over 1,000,000 and Canterbury with a population of only 25,000 is almost the smallest county borough that there is. If you do amalgamate these two forces, instead of having the Standing Joint Committee which you have for Kent to-day you will have a new joint authority and on that joint authority Canterbury would be entitled to have some representation. What we rather fear is that it may be that in some cases difficulties will arise as to what the representation should be. Sometimes there have been such difficulties. What the Home Secretary feels is that he should have a discretion to prevent the larger concern being able to dig their toes in and say they will not agree unless they can get whatever terms they like with regard to the constitution of the joint authority. Consequently we say that where the population of a county is 1000,000 or upward:—that obviously means Kent which has 1,000,000—then except with the consent of the Kent County Council no scheme shall be made by the Secretary of State under this clause for the amalgamation of Kent with Canterbury. If you do not put it in that way you will enable Kent to say "We will not consent unless the Canterbury representation on the new joint authority is only one man" or something of that sort. I am not suggesting that they would say that, but I am suggesting that you put them in the position of being able to say "Unless you grant the terms I have stated, I shall not consent." That is why we have put this in and I think the noble Lord will probably agree with this.
LORD LLEWELLIN: I am obliged to the noble and learned Lord for his explanation and in the circumstances I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 4 agreed to.
Clause 5.—[Constitution and powers of combined police authorities]:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, after subsection (1), to insert:
"(2) Provision may be made by an amalgamation scheme for applying, in relation to the

443
constitution and proceedings of the combined police authority and in relation to the officers of that authority, any of the provisions of Parts II to IV of the Local Government Act, 1933, subject to such modifications as may be prescribed by the scheme."
The noble and learned Lord said: We propose to put in this clause the words on the Amendment Paper. We could of course put all the provisions save one of the Local Government Act in the scheme, but we could not put in the scheme the penalties which are provided by the Local Government Act for improper conduct. For instance, suppose you had the case of a contract being made and one of the people concerned getting what is commonly called a "rake-off." The Local Government Act provides penalties for that sort of case, and therefore unless we incorporate the provisions of the Local Government Act we could not provide for a penalty in that sort of case of dishonesty. That being so we thought it desirable to put in these words.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 17, at end, insert the said new words.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 6 to 10 agreed to.
Clause II:
Chief Constables.
11.—(1) The person appointed by an amalgamation scheme to be the first chief constable of the combined force shall be a member of a police force, and shall be the chief constable of one of the constituent forces unless the Secretary of State is satisfied, having regard to any exceptional circumstances, that no such chief constable is suitable for the appointment.
(2) The chief constable of a non-county borough force shall not be transferred by virtue of this Act to the county force or to the combined force constituted by a county scheme made before the appointed day unless before the date of transfer he agrees to join that force in some capacity other than that of a chief constable; and the chief constable of a police force shall not be transferred to the combined force constituted by a scheme under this Act unless he is appointed as the first chief constable of that force or unless before the date of transfer he agrees to join that force in some other capacity.
4.20 p.m.
LORD LLEWELLIN LORD LLEWELLIN moved, in subsection (2), to leave out "The chief constable of a non-county borough force shall
444
not be transferred by virtue of this Act to the county force or to the combined force constituted by a county scheme made before the appointed day unless before the date of transfer he agrees to join that force in some capacity other than that of a chief constable; and". The noble Lord said: The Amendment I am moving now is to leave out the first part of subsection (2) of Clause 11. It seems to me prima facie that these words are quite unnecessary. I should have thought the words in the latter part of the subsection were ample to protect the chief constable. The first part of the subsection merely deals with the particular point of the chief constable of a non-county borough force, and if these words which I am proposing to omit are left in it will be impossible for him to be appointed chief constable of the new combined force unless he has previously entered that force in some other capacity. I really do not see why you want to deal with this particular case in any different way from the general words which would be left if we omit the first five and a half lines of this subsection. For these reasons, and as we do not want redundant words on the Statute Book, I beg to move. If the words are not redundant then perhaps the noble and learned Lord Chancellor will tell me why they are not.
Amendment moved—
Page 10, leave out from beginning of line 25 to ("the") in line 30.—(Lord Llewellin.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am afraid these words are not redundant. I think I can easily satisfy the noble Lord. Subsection (2) deals with two different cases. As the noble Lord will see, the first half deals with the non-county borough force and the second half with the chief constable of a county borough or county police force. The first deals with a non-county borough and the second with a county borough or county.
LORD LLEWELLIN: May I interrupt? Would not "police force" include a non-county police force?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: No, I do not think so. That is the intention, anyway. I asked about that. I looked into it to see whether it could not be made clearer and I suggested that it would be clearer to put in the words "the chief constable of a police force of a county or county-borough." I will look into it again, but the object is this. The scheme of the Bill,

445
as your Lordships will remember, so far as non-county borough police forces are concerned, is that they are simply absorbed or swallowed up by the county forces, whereas, of course, the county boroughs or the counties keep their forces, subject to amalgamation. For instance, if you amalgamate Northampton and Rutland, both of them being counties and both of them having their own forces, you will then have a police force brought into being which is different from anything now existing. It will be a combined Northampton and Rutland force; "Nutland," shall we call it. It will be a new force, whereas so far as the non-county boroughs are concerned these police forces simply disappear. The scheme of the Bill is that everybody in the police force is to continue in the police force in his same capacity. Your Lordships will find that provided, I think, in the Third Schedule on page 23 at line 30, which provides:
"… and shall hold in that force the same ranks respectively as they held immediately before the date of transfer in the force from which they are transferred."
I will come back again to my own county of Kent. There are a very large number of non-county boroughs, each of whom has got its own chief constable. Well, you cannot have nine chief constables. You have got to have one. Therefore you have got to deal with such a case by the first words in subsection (2), and to say that the chief constable of a non-county force cannot be the chief constable of the new force. There cannot be two, at any rate.
What is proposed is that under regulations which are going to be issued chief constables are going to be given the chance of going into the new police force in some other capacity than chief constable, or, if they desire to retire, we are going to facilitate their retirement. The scheme is that they are going to be credited with an extra ten years' service which I think everyone agrees is fair. That is the reason why we have got in this part of the clause words to deal with that. I think the noble Lord will see that we must have something; otherwise we shall have nine chief constables in Kent!
LORD LLEWELLIN: I was not suggesting there should be nine chief constables in Kent. Of course the last words would really adequately deal with that position, because he shall not be trans-
446
ferred to the combined force unless he is appointed chief constable of that force or unless before the date of transfer lie agrees to join that force in some other capacity. That would in fact deal with the point which the noble and learned Lord was putting. If it is intended to keep them, I see the force of an Amendment such as that adumbrated by the noble and learned Lord, save that in the second part of this subsection if you put in some such words as "and the chief constable of a county or county borough police force" we should get the two things distinct. As it is I believe the last words apply to the others as well as the former. If the noble and learned Lord would lock into the question of putting these words in, I think we should get it clear.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Yes.
LORD LLEWELLIN: On that understanding I beg to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause II agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
Schedules agreed to.

INDIAN CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY.
4.28 p.m.
LORD RANKEILLOUR LORD RANKEILLOUR had the following Notice on the Paper: To ask His Majesty's Government whether, in the event of a provisional agreement between the British Commissioners and Indian leaders as to the composition of an Indian Constituent Assembly, they will defer their assent to such agreement until it has been approved by both Houses of Parliament; whether it is their intention to negotiate a draft Treaty or like instrument for the government of India with a Constituent Assembly or newly constituted India Government; whether the optional adhesion of the Indian States and the protection of minorities will be necessary conditions of such treaty or instrument; and whether the text thereof (with any correspondence or declarations between the Commissioners and Indian leaders) will be published at least two months before confirming legislation is brought before Parliament; and to move for Papers.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, in submitting this Motion to the House I wish to say that I am doing it solely on my own

447
responsibility and no one else's, and I also wish to say I have no intention whatever of going into any general discussion of the present Indian situation. But there are certain gaps and, indeed, discrepancies in utterances by the Government which I think should be resolved with the knowledge of Parliament. I would begin by referring to Tuesday, March 12, when in answer to a question as to whether the Declaration of 1942, which would be in your Lordships' recollection, still held with regard to the freedom of the Indian States and the protection of minorities, the noble Lord, Lord Pethick-Lawrence, said that while the principles underlying the 1942 Declaration relating to the Indian States and the protection of the minorities remained, the precise application of them was necessarily subject to modifications in the light of these discussions.
That appeared to be a satisfactory and reasonable answer because obviously the position was different, and the application must necessarily be somewhat different too. But I confess I cannot reconcile this statement with the later ones made by the Government in another place. On 15th March the Prime Minister said:
"We are very mindful of the rights of minorities and minorities should be able to live free from fear. On the other hand, we cannot allow a minority to place a veto on the advance of the majority."
That, again, taken by itself, did not seem an unreasonable view, but at the same time, the minorities surely could be protected, I submit, without their being enabled to veto the progress of the majority. I think the reference really in this case was to the composition of the Constituent Assembly, and therefore I will not dwell unduly on it.
Later on there were some further statements of a much more general kind. It was said by the Foreign Minister, I believe, that new provisions would be made—that is to say, for the minority in the Constitution—and that his right honourable friends in their conversations would certainly not neglect the point. Now that is a complete departure, I submit, from the Declaration of 1942, because it there said that it was to be an essential condition of a Treaty to be negotiated between this country and a
448
future Indian Government, that the minorities should be protected as well as that the Indian States should be guaranteed. Therefore it certainly appears on the face of it that what was once an essential condition now becomes merely an item on the agenda of the Commissioners for their consideration. To this was added a further statement that we must recognize that we cannot make Indians responsible for governing themselves and at the same time retain over here responsibility for the treatment of minorities and the power to intervene on their behalf.
But surely intervention is not the only way to protect minorities, and personally I cannot but hope and indeed believe that, however this expression may be construed, the Government must have in mind something like an organic Statute in any future Indian Constitution for the protection of the civic rights, customs, freedom and religion of the minority. I think it is consequential on that that there must be some independent tribunal, not necessarily appointed from here, to make that protection effective.
There are one or two other points, perhaps of lesser importance, but still of some importance. In the 1942 Declaration it was laid down distinctly that the duty of the then one Commissioner was to settle the composition of the Constituent Assembly and that when that had been settled and an Indian Government set up, there would be negotiations with that Government as to the exact terms, subject, of course, to the two stipulations I have already mentioned. Now I understand the main function of the three Commissioners is to arrange for the Constituent Assembly and its composition.
There have been various phrases which are used, if I remember, by the members of the Government which are open to the interpretation anyhow that in their conversations with Indian leaders unspecified they may merely forestall and prejudice any negotiations with a future Indian Government that may take place, and that a situation may be created where it would be extremely difficult either for this Parliament or for any Indian Parliament to make any material change. Therefore the first and last parts of my question draw attention to the need first for Parliamentary ratification of the composition of an Indian Constituent Assembly, and

449
secondly, of time being given to this Parliament also for due deliberation as to whatever the result of these conversations or these negotiations may be. I have put down a time limit of two months, but I have no wish to enlarge upon that. But I do say that if we are to exercise properly our responsibility, and the responsibility is a very great one, we must have time to do it.
With regard to the present Act, I think there are many defects in it, and I took a fairly active part in opposing parts of it. At any rate, no one can say it was not the result of very ample deliberation and very free and detailed discussion. If we are to make a new and fundamental change, whatever the difficulties of the moment, we must be able to do so with a clear view before us of all the issues involved, and not allow ourselves to come to hasty decisions on the spur of a no doubt difficult and crucial moment.
4.39 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, perhaps you will allow me to say one word before the reply of the noble Earl responsible for answering on behalf of the Government. I speak, of course, even more so than my noble friend who has just sat down, entirely for myself. I think he is wise to deprecate a general discussion on India at the present moment. Matters are so delicate there that it would be patriotic—if I may use such a word—to abstain from comment. I do not for a moment wish your Lordships to think that my noble friend and myself have changed fundamentally in our opinions in the years which have elapsed since the Act of 1935 was passed; but there are moments when it is wise to insist on those differences and other moments when it is wiser not to say anything about them. For my part, I should prefer not to go into those difficulties; the situation is so acute. We must all hope for the best, and though we may not agree with all the Government have done in regard to India, we may on one thing agree—on being very grateful to those Ministers for their devotion in the efforts they are making, and in wishing them every success, even though we do not always agree with them. I hope that view will be the view of your Lordships' House.
4.41 p.m.
THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL (THE EARL OF LISTOWEL): My Lords, as I think
450
the noble Lord, Lord Rankeillour, and the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, have both suggested, your Lordships will not expect me this afternoon to make any new statement of policy on behalf of His Majesty's Government. The objects of the Cabinet Mission to India have been explained in the statements made by my noble friend the Secretary of State for India in this House, and in another place by the Prime Minister. There have been full discussions in both Houses and at the present, moment the members of the Mission are just about to start their conversations in India with the leaders of Indian opinion. I am sure your Lordships will also agree that every word spoken in public at such a moment must be carefully considered in relation to the really immeasurably important responsibility entrusted by Parliament to the Cabinet Mission. I am particularly grateful to the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, for his appeal, and to several other noble Lord who have long experience and extensive knowledge of Indian affairs but who have nevertheless accepted a sell-denying ordinance this afternoon. It would be inopportune and possibly harmful to embark on any further or extended debate in your Lordships' House. I accordingly propose to deal, quite briefly, with the specific points raised in the Motion which the noble Lord has put upon the Order Paper.
The noble Lord referred first to the composition of the constitution-making body. This matter has been covered in the statements which have already been made on behalf of His Majesty's Government and there has not been any suggestion in them that the method of composing this body should be subject to previous Parliamentary approval. It is entirely a matter for the Mission to work out: in discussion with the leaders in India. The noble Lord referred later to the negotiation of the draft Treaty envisaged in the draft Declaration of 1942, to the adhesion of the Indian States to the new Constitution, and to the protection of minorities. His Majesty's Government have nothing to add to their previous statements on these subjects. As regards the Indian States, it has been made clear that it is for them to decide whether to adhere or not when the appropriate time arrives. The disposal of the other matters depends largely on the results of the forthcoming discussions in India, and it is therefore not possible to forecast at this stage the pre-

451
cise arrangements which will be made in regard to them. Finally, the noble Lord asked whether any instrument which Parliament will eventually have to approve will be published at least two months before Parliament is asked to deal with it. On this point your Lordships, I am sure, will not expect any detailed assurance from me in advance of events. But I can assure the noble Lord that all these questions are still before the minds of His Majesty's Government, and that we are just as fully conscious as he is that a satisfactory solution of the problems which they raise is essential to the welfare of India.
4.46 p.m.
LORD RANKEILLOUR: My Lords, there is very little I can properly add, but I do not think that the noble Earl has answered my question as to whether the negotiations will be with a future Indian Government or with the present leaders. I do not know whether he feels he can answer that now. If not, of course, I quite understand. Can the noble Earl answer?
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I should prefer not to add to anything that I have said, for the reasons given in my speech, but naturally I will make a note of the point raised by the noble Lord opposite and provide him with any information I may be able to receive later on.
LORD RANKEILLOUR: I quite appreciate the noble Earl's difficulties, and in all the circumstances I ask leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

COMMONWEALTH AIR TRANSPORT.
4.47 p.m.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER THE EARL OF MUNSTER had given Notice to ask His Majesty's Government whether they will make a statement on the recent visit of the Minister of Civil Aviation to Australia, New Zealand, and India; and to move for Papers. The noble Earl said: My Lords, I feel that my first words in addressing your Lordships this afternoon should offer the sympathy and solace of the whole House to the friends and relatives of the passengers and crew of the Lancastrian aircraft which disappeared en route to Australia. I do not know whether the noble Lord, the Minis-
452
ter, is in a position to give us any further information, but I sincerely hope that it is not too late for some, if not all, of the survivors to be found. I feel certain that your Lordships will be glad to welcome home the noble Lord, Lord Winster, from the tour which he has just completed. There are many noble Lords in this House who take an active interest in the development of civil aviation, and I have no doubt that they would welcome from the noble Lord some statement of the result of his visit to Australia, New Zealand and India. It is for that purpose that I have placed my Motion on the Paper to-day.
I think I should be substantially correct in saying that the noble Lord's visit was the sequel to a useful and very fruitful meeting of the Commonwealth Air Transport Council which met in July, 1945, under the chairmanship of my noble friend behind me, Viscount Swinton. That meeting was assisted by the African Air Conference which had been convened earlier in the same year by Field-Marshal Smuts, and many noble Lords may remember that after replying to the noble Viscount, Lord Rothermere, on March 15 last year, my noble friend behind me set out the same evening to attend the Conference in South Africa as the representative of His Majesty's Government. I have no desire to remind your Lordships of every decision which was reached, but I think it would be useful if I did remind the House of the more important agreements that were made. All arrangements were made for the United Kingdom-South African service (commonly called the "Springbok" service) and the South African Transport Council was set up. The Conference lasted for a period of six days. It was a really remarkable performance, for within that time they agreed on all details for the operation of the great trunk route and agreed that it should be worked in parallel partnership by B.O.A.C. and South African Air Lines, both companies using the same aircraft of British manufacture.
Having briefly reminded your Lordships of the results of the South African Conference, I should like, if I may, to come back again to the July meeting of the Commonwealth Air Transport Council. Here the principles were agreed under which the Commonwealth air routes would be operated in parallel partnerships, and particulars were contained in a

453
Press communiqué issued at the conclusion of the meeting. Moreover, much detailed work was done on the practical application of those principles on the routes between the United Kingdom, India, Australia and New Zealand, thereby, of course, following the precedent which had been set at the South African Conference. This meeting further discussed the operation of a Pacific route by the Australian, New Zealand and United Kingdom joint company working in parallel partnership with a reciprocal Canadian service. I have no doubt that the best way of operating services between Australia, New Zealand, the Fiji Islands and elsewhere was also discussed. Those are, very briefly, some of the more important matters which came up for discussion at the July Conference. I hope that the noble Lord, the Minister for Civil Aviation, will be able to state this after-noon what further progress has been made in this great Empire and Common-wealth partnership which was given such a flying start when my noble friend behind me was Minister for Civil Aviation.
I should also like to ask the noble Lord what is the basis of the reciprocal services between Australia, New Zealand and Canada, and whether it will be on the same lines as the parallel partnership which my noble friend agreed with the other Dominions. It may well be that some other kind of reciprocal arrangement was arrived at, but perhaps the noble Lord could make that quite clear. At the same time I should like to know whether the necessary arrangements have been made with the United States to cover United States calls en route. I imagine that on the long journey he made the noble Lord not only discussed the problems to which I have just referred but interested himself in how and when these services were to operate. It is, of course, always desirable to have full details worked our and agreed amongst the partners to any new concern, but frankly we do not get very much further in the air unless we know the aircraft which is to be used on the particular route and what the production position is. I should like the noble Lord, if he would be good enough, to tell us when this service will be in full operation.
In the debate which took place in your Lordships' House last October the noble Lord stated in the course of his reply that he was in active consultation with the
454
Minister of Supply, who realized the needs of civil aviation and afforded him full co-operation. I hope that the cordial association and friendship which has been formed between the noble Lord and his right honourable friend the Minister of Supply has not waned in the interval of five months. The noble Lord went on to say that although he had some good aircraft coming along, they were not coming so soon or in such numbers as he would like and he hoped that production could be speeded up. I would ask the noble Lord whether in fact production has been speeded up and what is the present position. For instance, is the Tudor II (which the noble Lord thought would be a most useful aircraft for our Common-wealth routes) yet in production? The Minister will appreciate far better than I can the vital need for the rapid speeding-up of production of civil aircraft of all types. It would be interesting to know the type or types which it is intended to use on these routes, the earliest date at which they will be ready for use, and whether in point of fact the parallel partnerships will be in operation on those routes. Those are the principal questions which I should be glad if the noble Lord could answer.
I have an additional number of detailed questions, of which I have given the noble Lord private notice, and which perhaps I might also ask. Two months ago it fell to my lot to go with a Parliamentary Delegation to India, travelling by air both ways. I was grateful for the arrangements which were made for our accommodation and for our comfort, but it did strike me that at certain stopping-places en route the food arrangements could have been largely improved. I thought the time had arrived when passengers needed no longer to suffer on Army rations or iron rations, and I wondered whether the noble Lord would contemplate the appointment of a catering manager or inspector who would have complete power to travel on all these routes and give advice on catering arrangements where necessary. At the same time it came to my notice that, under instructions from the Treasury, issued through the noble Lord's Department, there had been a cutting down of the domestic staffs at the hotels and rest houses en route. I cannot really believe that that is a correct story and I should be grateful if the noble Lord could sub-

455
stantiate or repudiate it. I was also told that on these journeys before the war playing cards and games were made available to the passengers and that they were each provided with printed maps to show them the course which they were taking. There may be difficulty in obtaining the games and the playing cards to-day, but I should have thought it might be possible to issue to the passengers maps of the routes on which they travel.
Lastly, I come to the question of landing at the aerodrome, when passengers are conveyed to the hotel or rest-house in Army lorries not of the most modern and up-to-date type, and when everyone has certain knowledge that a short distance away American aerodromes are provided with large and, I am told, luxurious motor-cars in which to take their passengers from the aerodrome to the place where they intend to spend the night. I do not know whether the noble Lord is contemplating doing away with these Army lorries and putting in their place some more comfortable means of travel. All those are detailed points, but it is the etceteras which, as I feel sure the noble Lord will agree, go so far towards making a long journey comfortable and which leave in the minds of the travellers an earnest desire to proceed in the future to other destinations by air. It is for that reason that I have addressed these questions to the noble Lord.
5.0 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF CIVIL AVIATION (LORD WINSTER): My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Munster, for putting this Motion on the Paper, and for giving me an opportunity to give your Lordships some account of my recent journey, and also for raising very many interesting and valuable points in connexion with civil aviation. Before giving some account of my recent journey, may I first of all deal with some of the points extraneous to that journey which the noble Earl has raised? First of all, may I deal with this most unhappy news about the Lancastrian? I regret to have to tell your Lordships that I have no further news at the moment beyond that which has appeared in the Press. I have been making inquiries as recently as this afternoon, but I have nothing, I fear, to add to what has already been published. I am sure that your Lordships will share with me in regretting the anxiety under
456
which Sir Roy Dobson must be concerning the fate of his son. Sir Roy Dobson played a most noble part during the war in the production of the Lancaster, which I think was the most potent single war-winning weapon of the war, and I am sure we must feel the deepest sympathy with him in the anxiety which he is under at the present moment.
That leaves me to refer to another sad matter at this moment, before I pass on to other matters. Mr. John Marchbank, a member of the Board of the British Overseas Airways Corporation, died suddenly last Saturday, and I attended his funeral this morning. His whole career was a story of grit and ability and of service to his fellow-workmen. As a member of the Board of the British Overseas Corporation he rendered most sterling service to British civil aviation. I think of him in particular in connexion with Hurn airport. Conditions there were difficult during the war with unheated hangars, poor living accommodation, and many things to discourage the workers, but by his visits and by virtue of his stolid, sensible, human personality, Mr. Marchbank kept them cheerful, and in doing so rendered a real and important war service, and I am sure your Lordships will feel with me that in him civil aviation has lost a very good servant indeed.
I will now deal with the other matters raised by the noble Earl. I am grateful to Lord Munster for the words of welcome to myself on return from my tour. I must also fully endorse the references which he made to the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, and also fully endorse the value of the work which Lord Swinton did in South Africa for civil aviation. I think what I have to say will answer many of the points raised in that particular direction, and will show that in many respects we have filled up and closed the gaps left by that valuable work which Lord Swinton did in South Africa. As regards the arrangements made with the United States to cover the ports of call which are involved in the trans-Pacific service, it is for the Governments of Australia and New Zealand to negotiate the bilateral agreements necessary for securing rights in United States territories, in return for similar rights which the United States will require in Australia and New Zealand and British territories. Arrangements to this end were discussed

457
at Wellington. The noble Earl then asked me about my relations with the Ministry of Supply; has production been speeded up, and is the Tudor II in production? As regards my relations with the Minister of Supply, the honeymoon is not over, and so far I have no reason to suspect any grounds for divorce.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: When is something going to be born?
LORD WINSTER: The statutory period still remains at nine months, and I have only been in office for eight. But I can say with complete confidence that steps have been taken to speed up production, and as regards the Tudor II I am sure it will not have escaped the noble Earl's notice that the prototype of Tudor II has flown, and has flown with successful results.
Then the noble Earl raised some points connected with his recent trip to India. He said the food was not too good. It is not too good anywhere at the present moment, and I wonder if the noble Earl finds it much better in some of the London restaurants. He spoke about the cutting down of domestic staff at rest houses en route. I have no information about that, and I have heard nothing to that effect. He spoke about the supplying of playing cards and games for the passengers, and of supplying a printed map to show the course. I remember when I went across the Atlantic in a Boeing, there was a very remarkable chart with a moving pointer which showed our position at any moment en route The noble Earl also spoke about landing at the quay, and passengers being conveyed by Army lorries, whereas the Americans were supplying limousines. All those are really important points. It is essential, if our Air Services are to succeed, that the reasonable comfort and convenience of passengers should be most fully considered, and I am certain that those concerned with our Air Services, including the B.O.A.C., are full alive to that point. I am sure the noble Earl will recognize they are working under certain difficulties at the present moment. They have to supply facilities for passengers in countries where conditions are still very disturbed and abnormal and it is not very easy for them to make things quite as comfortable and as convenient as they would like, But it is certainly their aim, and nobody will quarrel with the noble Earl for bringing
458
those points to notice. I am quite satisfied that the Chairman of the Corporation and the Chairman Designate will be very grateful to the noble Earl for bringing this point forward, and I am sure he may be equally satisfied that full attention will be given to them and constant efforts made to improve the arrangements for the comfort and the convenience of passengers.
Now if I may turn to the particular purpose of the noble Earl's Motion. The primary purpose of my recent tour was to attend the Pacific Civil Aviation Conference convened by the Government of New Zealand at Wellington. I took the opportunity, however, to have discussions on matters of mutual interest with the Australian Minister for Air and Civil Aviation, the Honourable A. S., Drakeford, at Canberra, and at Delhi with Sir Mahommed Usman, the Member for Posts and Telegraphs, who is responsible for civil aviation in India. I was also able to discuss with the Civil Air Attaché at Cairo a number of important matters arising in the very wide field of territories to which he is accredited. I assure your Lordships it is a very wide field indeed, and the Civil Air Attaché is hard put to it to cover all the ground.
It was with very great pleasure that I was able to respond to the invitation of the New Zealand Government to attend this Conference in Wellington and discuss the many civil aviation problems of common interest to Australia, New Zealand and ourselves. These Conferences among Members of the British Commonwealth of Nations are conspicuous for their atmosphere of cordiality, for a spirit of mutual accommodation and for an ability to recognize the other fellow's point of view—all matters which might well form a pattern for other international conferences. The Conference at Wellington was no exception. It demonstrated the spirit of give and take and the desire to find solutions for the common good—for the common world good not merely for the Commonwealth good—which characterizes the British peoples. Owing to the Parliamentary preoccupation of various Ministers, the work of the Conference was compressed into six intensive days and nights from February 28 to March 5. That so much was accomplished in so short a time was due to the patient and effective management of the Conference by the

459
Chairman, Mr. Walter Nash, Deputy Prime Minister of New Zealand. He was an ideal chairman if there ever was one.
The Conference was on the Ministerial level, and the Governments of the United Kingdom, Australia and New Zealand were represented by delegations headed by Ministers. The Australian delegation was led by the Honourable Arthur S. Drakeford, Minister for Civil Aviation, and the New Zealand delegation by the Honourable Walter Nash, Deputy Prime Minister. The Governor of Fiji, who is also High Commissioner for the Western Pacific, attended in an independent capacity on behalf of those Dependencies which he administers. The Government of Canada, which is interested in the trans-Pacific route which will provide her air communications with Australia and New Zealand, sent an observer, Dr. W. A. Ridell, Canadian High Commissioner in New Zealand, and I would like to acknowledge his generous and helpful attitude. We reached agreement, but the recommendations of the Conference will, of course, be subject to the approval of Governments.
The topics of discussion fell under two main heads, namely, the organization of air transport services of interest to Commonwealth countries operating in and through the South Pacific area, and the provision of the ground organization and meteorological facilities necessary for the operation of those services. After a preliminary survey of the various civil aviation matters of common concern, the members of the Conference got down to the main points at issue, and decided to recommend to their Governments that a South Pacific Air Transport Council, with a permanent secretariat to be located in Australia, should be established to provide machinery for consultation and to advise the Commonwealth Governments concerned on all matters connected with the co-ordination and development of civil aviation in the Pacific. The membership of the Council will be those Governments represented at the Conference, and Canada has also been invited to accept membership. The South Pacific Air Transport Council is modelled on the South African Air Transport Council which was established so successfully by the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, at Capetown last year, and it will work in
460
close liaison with the main Commonwealth Air Transport Council which was set up as a result of the Commonwealth Conference in Montreal in 1944, and which held its first meeting in London last July.
The constitution of the South Pacific Air Transport Council makes provision for the appointment of such technical committees as it may consider necessary, and at the Wellington Conference it was decided to recommend the early establishment of a Committee on Air Navigation and Ground Organization to survey and make recommendations to Governments on airfield requirements and their equipment, and a Committee of Meteorologists to carry out similar functions in relation to the meteorological organization required for the operation of air services in the South Pacific area.
So much for organization. Now let me deal with the air services. The air services of interest to the three countries are, firstly, a trans-Pacific trunk service connecting Australia and New Zealand with North America via Fiji, Canton Island and Honolulu; secondly, services between Australia and New Zealand across the Tasman Sea; and thirdly, local and regional services serving the Australian, New Zealand and United Kingdom territories in the South Pacific area. There is already in existence an airline, Tasman Empire Airways, which operates flying boat services between Australia and New Zealand. This airline, in which Australia, New Zealand and the United Kingdom participate, was established in 1940 for the period of the war, and the Conference recommends that Tasman Empire Airways should continue to be entrusted with these services with headquarters, as at present, based at Wellington.
Now for the trans-Pacific trunk service. The Conference had before it the conclusions reached at the Montreal Conference in 1944, and at the Commonwealth Air Transport Conference in London in July last, that Australia, New Zealand and the United Kingdom should combine their interests in this route by forming a tripartite organization to operate services between Australia and Vancouver and between New Zealand and Vancouver, both services being routed via Fiji, Canton, Honolulu and San Francisco. It was also contemplated at Montreal that this tripartite organization would operate services in parallel

461
with those of Trans-Canada Airlines under partnership arrangements which involved the pooling of aircraft, of traffics and of revenues, and the provision of facilities required by the operators on the routes on a common user basis. In accordance with these arrangements, it was agreed that both the tripartite organization and Trans-Canada Airlines should be equipped with the same type of aircraft—that is the Canadian-built DC4M, which is powered by Rolls-Royce engines manufactured in the United Kingdom.
These decisions of the Montreal Conference in 1944 were endorsed at Wellington, and it was decided to set up at once an organization to be known as British Commonwealth Pacific Airlines—B.C.P.A.—in which the United Kingdom, Australia and New Zealand would participate, to operate trans-Pacific services as soon as the DC4M aircraft become available early next year. The noble Earl asked me about that specific point. We hope and believe that these aircraft will become available early next year. The main base of this organization and of the operations will be in Australia where the British Commonwealth Pacific Airlines will be registered, but in view of the urgency of establishing Commonwealth air communications across the Pacific at the earliest possible moment, it was agreed to recommend that the British Common-wealth Pacific Airlines should be empowered to enter at once into a contract for a temporary service on the most economical terms obtainable consistent with the provision of an efficient service until such time as the DC4M becomes available.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: Will the noble Lord say what aircraft will be used?
LORD WINSTER: What I foresee is this. I think British Commonwealth Pacific Airlines will receive several offers. There is probably more than one organization or operator who will feel able to make proposals for the operation of this interim service, and it will be for the British Commonwealth Pacific Airlines to choose from the various proposals made to them and to enter into a contract for the operation of a service pending the arrival of the DC4M. Now I should like to speak about the local and regional services in the Pacific area. These are mainly the concern of the Governments of Australia and New Zealand and it was
462
agreed that each country would continue to operate services to their respective territories in the South Pacific. Where these services do not provide adequate air communications to meet the requirements of Fiji and of the Western Pacific High Commission for inter-island services in the Western Pacific area, it was agreed that consideration should be given to the possibility of making charter arrangements for the purpose of meeting the needs of general administration of the territories.
The ground facilities—airfields and equipment and meteorological services—required in connexion with the operation of the trans-Pacific and local services formed the subject of special study, and very prolonged study, by technical committees which were set up by the Conference. The recommendations of these committees, which made considerable progress, were adopted by the Conference with a recommendation that further study should be given forthwith to these problems by the proposed Committee on Air Navigation and Ground Organization and the Committee of Meteorologists, which I have already referred to, which are about to be set up under the agis of the South Pacific Air Transport Council. The Conference recognized that each Government would be responsible for the provision and maintenance of ground facilities in their respective territories but recommended that the organization required on the Pacific routes, outside the mainland of Australia and New Zealand, should be treated as a joint responsibility of the Governments concerned. But in that connexion it was also agreed that Australia and New Zealand, as agents of the United Kingdom, should provide the technical services and staffs required in the United Kingdom territories. This is obviously a sensible and practical arrangement which relieves the United Kingdom of the obligation to maintain and man the ground organization in this very remote area.
So much for Wellington. From there I flew to Sydney and on to Canberra where we had talks with Mr. Drakeford, the Australian Minister for Civil Aviation, and his advisers about the operation of air services between the United Kingdom and Australia and there I negotiated a bi-lateral agreement covering those services. Mr. Drakeford and myself agreed, as a temporary measure, subject to the approval of the Governments, that the

463
existing Lancastrian services which are operating to a thrice-weekly schedule should be supplemented by a Sunderland flying-boat service operating to the same frequency. These arrangements are to be reviewed at a date not later than September next when the long-term policy for the organization of these services will be further considered. The bilateral agreement which I negotiated with Mr. Drakeford follows the standard form already negotiated with other Commonwealth countries and, subject to the approval of the Government of Australia will shortly be concluded. Mr. Drakeford and I initialled it before I left Australia.
The agreement confers on each country the necessary rights of operation in each other's territories, makes provision for capacity to be maintained in close relationship with the traffic offering, and for frequencies and fares to be agreed between operators subject to the approval of Governments. Following these talks at Canberra I returned to Sydney to resume my return journey and I took the opportunity to visit Delhi in order to discuss with Sir Mahommed Usman a number of technical problems of mutual interest. While these matters were chiefly of a technical character the opportunity was also taken to discuss the form of bilateral agreement being negotiated between the United Kingdom and India to cover air services between the two countries. These talks were of a thoroughly practical and also of an extremely valuable character.
This journey which I made has practically completed the fulfilment of the policy of Commonwealth co-operation in civil aviation which I announced in your Lordships' House shortly after I took office. The various partnership arrangements now concluded, covering the operation of Commonwealth main trunk and regional air services and the necessary ground organization over a large part of the world, will make an important contribution to the general cause of Commonwealth co-operation which we all know to be an important, in fact the main, stabilizing force in a highly unstable world. One of my outstanding impressions of the tour was the readiness of those with whom I conferred to subordinate a merely national approach to the greater Commonwealth good in dealing with the
464
various problems which we had to discuss.
If I ever had any doubts about the importance of the Commonwealth in reestablishing world order, my flight over the troubled and ravaged areas of the world would soon have dispelled them. Let us consider for one moment the places at which I touched down. After leaving Poole I went to Augusta, Cairo, Allahabad, Calcutta, Rangoon, Singapore and Sourabaya and then to Port Darwin. I think your Lordships will agree with me that it was not only an extraordinary experience but a most informative experience to fly from this country over those places. It was indeed a ravaged part of the world over which one flew and between Poole in this country and Port Darwin in Australia one was in contact with sights and scenes which gave one nothing but cause for great reflection. The provision of air services to establish speedy and vital communications between the various parts of the Commonwealth is of supreme importance to the achievement of this worthwhile objective, to restore and to reconstruct.
If your Lordships will permit me, I would like to say a word about the flight itself. My journey was undertaken in a British-built flying-boat, the Hythe type Sunderland. The journey from Poole to Auckland was accomplished in six days and in just over 82 hours of flying time. The fact that we were able to go into conference within one hour of our arrival in Wellington speaks well for the superior standards of comfort of the flying-boat and justifies my belief that, if passenger preference is to be the criterion, the flying-boat still has before it a great future. That I was able to fly 30,000 miles in 26 days and to discuss important business in New Zealand, Australia, India and Cairo is, I think, an impressive demonstration of the possibilities which air travel places at the disposal of Ministers. These possibilities were evidently realized by Mr. Chifley and Mr. Nash. I am happy to tell your Lordships that they gladly accepted my proposal to place at their disposal for their approaching visit to London a flying-boat similar to that in which I travelled to their countries. In fact, I believe it will be the same flying-boat.
Your Lordships will not, I think, mind if I conclude with a few personal matters. The noble Vis-

465
count, Lord Bledisloe, is not in his place, but I should like to tell him through the medium of the Official Report that his memory and that of Lady Bledisloe is very green in New Zealand, where their names are everywhere spoken with great affection. I must also mention the names of Captain Stead and Captain Steer and the crew of the flying-boat. I do so not because of their personal services to me, but because by their professional skill and their attention to duty during an exceptionally strenuous trip they gave British civil aviation a good name wherever we went and demonstrated those qualities without which the finest aircraft in the world will not give you a good service. It is those same qualities, which I have observed everywhere among the staffs of British airlines, which will stand us in good stead during the difficult period which immediately faces us. I would also say that it was impossible to travel across that troubled and devastated belt of the world without realizing all over again the quality of the men by whom this country is served. And I realized, too, that for anyone engaged in politics, especially at this time of many difficulties and disappointments, a visit to the Dominions is not only an essential experience but also an immense encouragement. They are indeed splendid people in New Zealand and Australia, full of vigour and initiative and facing the future with complete though modest self-confidence.
I have endeavoured to describe my mission in terms of moderation, but I think I may fairly say that it was a useful one, and that it had good results. I must add that these results were due in no small measure to the advisers who constituted the delegation which I led. I gladly acknowledge my debt to them. Step by step we are building up a network of agreements and understandings with other countries. The progress is real, even if it is not spectacular. May I say in conclusion that any agreements we enter into are not aimed at national advantage, but at the establishment of international arrangements which shall benefit the entire world?
5.35 p.m.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, I am sure the House will be grateful to the Minister for giving us such an interesting account of his journey. Before I offer one or two observations on what
466
he has said, I should like to associate myself in the tribute he paid to Mr. Marchbank. I fully endorse it. Very good relations existed in the B.O.A.C. with their crews and their ground staff, and the really admirable arrangements for pensions and superannuation allowances, and for giving opportunities to men on the ground when their flying time was over, are generous, as indeed they should be, but essentially practical at the same time. I know that very well, for I discussed these matters often with Mr. Marchbank, and I know how much is due to him. B.O.A.C. has deed suffered a sad loss in his demise, and our sympathy goes out to those he has left behind. I should also like to associate myself in the sympathy extended to Sir Roy Dobson in his anxiety.
We have differed on many things. I dare say we shall differ on a few more, but with regard to this Empire partnership in the air we are all agreed. We all want to do what we can to make it a living reality, not only because of its importance in civil aviation, but equally for its value in knitting the countries of the Commonwealth and Empire together. I was glad the Minister took, as he did, what I thought was a very practical suggestion which the noble Earl, Lord Munster, made about travelling facilities, to use a comprehensive term. Airlines do not only get their passengers by What happens in the air (although that is the most important part) but also by what happens on the ground. Service and safety are the two things which are going to influence passengers in the choice of the line by which they travel. Incidentally, I would just add that nothing irritates passengers more than to be brought down on an airfield only a few miles from where they spent the night, and to be kept there for hours before the aircraft takes off, and very often, or sometimes, sent back again to the "stable" after having sat either in or round or near the aircraft for some hours in rain or in hot sun or in the medium climate of this country. Really that ought not to be necessary, because there is a thing called wireless. There must be at least a million surplus wireless sets in the Fighting Services in this country. Every police car quite rightly goes about with wireless apparatus. I see a great many

467
other cars as well with wireless fitted, with less obvious purposes. It really ought not to be beyond the bounds of possibility for a simple wireless service to be established between where the aeroplane sits and where the travellers are spending the night, and for a message to be sent. There can be no security objections to it. I assume that a message could go, and therefore they need not undergo such an interminable amount of sitting upon the airfield.
I am very glad these conferences met where they did. I looked forward, I frankly admit, to taking part in them myself but the noble Lord was more fortunate. It is all to the good, indeed it is the essence of this Empire partnership and of the Commonwealth Air Transport Council that it should be in different parts of the Empire. That is excellent. I am very glad that, following the South African precedent, the South Pacific Air Transport Council has been established. It is very practicable to regionalize the Commonwealth Air Council in this way. One question I would like to ask is about the joint company for operating across the Pacific, with which I entirely agree. The shareholders will be ourselves, Australia, and New Zealand. I do not know whether he has settled in what proportions we shall hold the shares.
LORD WINSTER: No, not entirely.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: That is not certain yet. But it is obviously right that that joint company should operate, and I think it is quite right and economically essential that that service should operate with the same type of aircraft. It is going to be a very expensive service to run, anyhow. I think it must be run in parallel with Canada. I am extremely glad—and this we did, I think, settle right away back at Montreal—that there has been no reversion to the original idea of a Canadian service out to Honolulu and then an Australian joint service taking over from that point. The Canadians met us very fairly over it at Montreal. It would have been a bad system, but that does certainly imply that if these two services are to be run into and out of Canada in parallel, which will not involve a large number of aircraft, it would be extremely uneconomical to run different types of aircraft on the service. It would mean
468
duplicating all the spare parts necessary at the different stopping places along the route and having to train the personnel to look after two kinds of aircraft instead of one. I think that really is unanswerable. Even so, I think it would be an intolerably expensive route to run. But I am quite sure we have got to run it. It is unthinkable that in the Pacific, with all our interests in it, there should not be under the British flag a direct air route from Canada to New Zealand and Australia and conversely. That I think would be all to the good. As regards the Australia route (the United Kingdom to Australia) I am extremely glad that the Lancastrian service is to be supplemented by a flying-boat service.
Your Lordships will remember that very soon after taking over Civil Aviation I made a plea that, however popular the land plane might be with the operators, we in this country, with our great knowledge of design and operation, should not abandon the flying-boat. I am not at all sure that it might not come into its own again. You do not know, nobody knows, be it a question of passengers or of freight, whether large aircraft are really going to be practicable or successful, but certainly the flying-boat has a great past and, I believe, a considerable future. It is comfortable and gives people a feeling of security. I am not sure that it is always much safer to land on the sea in a flying-boat than in a land plane; it depends on the state of the sea. But sometimes it certainly is. I remember some years ago a flying-boat which came down about 140 miles off the coast of Brazil and either taxied or was towed into Rio or Bahia or somewhere. It certainly kept afloat and it was finally rescued. That would not have happened had that been a land plane. I am extremely glad that one of the last things I did before I was dismissed from office was to sell a number of these flying-boats to the Argentine. I hope they are giving satisfaction over there.
LORD WINSTER: They are very satisfactory.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: The only other point I would mention is the route between Australia and this country. That, of course, is to be conducted in parallel partnership in the manner we settled last July when we also settled all the details, subject to Government

469
approval, regarding the burden of expenses. It really followed the South African precedent and is thoroughly workable, and I take it there is no change. That working partnership is operating well on the Springbok route. I think that is all to the good. The Minister did not say anything about the postal arrangements but I take it we are not yet quite at the stage where we can make a comprehensive review of the Empire air postal arrangements.
LORD WINSTER: Those matters were very fully discussed but we were not able to come to a final decision about them at this point.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: I am very much obliged. The only other thing I wish to say is this, and I know everybody will agree with it. One makes these agreements, and they are good agreements and represent good Imperial partnership, but it is no good having the agreements without the aircraft. As my noble friend asked, when is it all going to start? I shall not follow up the rather vulgar intervention I made in regard to the lovely picture which the noble Lord drew, but it really is very important to get these aircraft out. The smaller one, the Vickers Viking, has come along very well indeed. It is up to time and it is a very good plane. I have had the pleasure of flying in it. But the delay in bringing out these Tudors is a great disappointment. I do not know why it has arisen. There cannot be such a lot of work in the shops. There ought not to be a great many snags about it. I am sure the Minister is as anxious as I am to see them out, and I do hope there will be a great improvement in regard to this matter.
There is one point I wish to add. We have often been told, and I have said it myself, that we in this country have a tremendous future in the jet engine and in all the applications of it, whether it is a direct jet or working through propellers. We shall not be able to use that development unless, concurrently with the production of these engines, we have completely solved the problem of pressurization—that is a dreadful word but it means maintaining the pressure in the cabin. I did advert to this in the defence debate yesterday, and I do wish to press it strongly upon the Minister. Frankly, I am not satisfied with what is being done in regard to pressurization at the present time, and
470
I do not believe he is. Whether the right people are on the job or not, I do not know. Let us assume that they are. Although I think the people who know a great deal about how to boost up an engine may be the people who know a great deal about some problems of pressurization, I am quite sure that in order to make your pressurization completely satisfactory you must have some vast chamber in which it can be not only tried out but worked in day and night. It is really vital. I do not believe that any little localized experiments, putting this or that part of your pressurization equipment into, as it were, an isolated box, is going to do the trick. If anything goes wrong with an aircraft which is flying at 40,000 feet, it is not going to be a case of just coming down quickly. Everybody is going to be blacked out altogether. I am told that if you get a hole an inch in diameter—well, I am not going to quote figures, but the pressure at which the air goes out is quite fantastic, and it is going to kill everybody on the ship, pilot and crew. If that happens—and pray God it will not happen to any line—it is going to put an end to people travelling by that line and perhaps by any other for quite a while.
In order to make sure that this does not happen, it is surely necessary to have a great chamber into which you can put perhaps not the whole aircraft but a sufficiently large section of it with all its accessories of pressurization and be able to operate the whole of your pressurization plant—the boosting up, the compression, the addling of the liquid air, and so on—and do it at every temperature, under every condition, and go on doing it. That is the point I want to emphasize: it is not sufficient just to make a single experiment. It may be that something is being done about that matter. I very much doubt if it is, and I do urge the Minister, with all the strength at my command—because I am sure the future of British civil aviation is going to depend on this—not to rest satisfied. A tremendous figure is put down in the Estimates for research. The figure of £28,000,000 has been mentioned. The Fighting Service is interested in this also, certainly for its bombers and its high altitude fighters. I ask him to make quite sure that all the money that is needed is, in the boldest and most com-

471
prehensive manner, spent on this development of pressurization.
LORD WINSTER: I think I should say that I endorse generally what the noble Viscount has said in regard to pressurization. It is also right that I should say that from the time I took office I have endeavoured to press this matter to the front. I believe that at the present moment the importance of it is recognized and that proper attention is being given to it by all those concerned.
5.55 p.m.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, I am sure the House will allow me thirty seconds in which to associate myself with the tributes paid to Mr. Marchbank for the work he did. I was at the Air Ministry when Mr. Clive Pearson and Mr. Runciman resigned and the new Board of the B.O.A.C., of which Mr. Marchbank was a member, came in. During all the time we worked together and on every occasion one saw the character of the man, the breadth of vision, the understanding and tolerance of all men and all men's habits, that he brought to his work. I would like to say, with the other noble Lords, that we send our condolences to his family in their irreparable loss.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Lords, I see there is further business on the Paper this evening and therefore I will merely thank the noble Lord, the Minister of Civil Aviation, for his interesting and useful speech. I trust that at some future date it may be possible to have a further debate which may prove as useful as our discussion this afternoon. I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

POLICE-CONTROLLED TRAFFIC LIGHTS.
5.57 p.m.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE rose to ask His Majesty's Government if they can state the total number of Metropolitan and City of London police officers employed constantly on the manual operation of traffic lights, such as those on the
472
Embankment and Kensington High Street, and whether in view of the shortage of police officers, operation of all such controls could be carried out automatically or by man-power other than trained policemen. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to ask the question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
LORD WALKDEN: My Lords, in the Metropolitan Police District police officers are at present regularly employed on the operation of eight traffic signals. The effect of installing these signals has been to reduce the number of men employed in controlling traffic by eighteen. It is, however, hoped to convert some of the signals to automatic working as soon as the supply position permits. My right honourable friend is informed that in the City of London police officers are engaged in operating traffic signals at Ludgate Circus, but that these will be converted to automatic working as soon as conditions permit. In addition, manually-operated traffic signals are installed from time to time in places where road works are in progress, or where for some other reason traffic is reduced to a single line. The number of these signals in use, and the number of police officers employed, vary according to circumstances.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his reply. I take it the Government are going to stop as soon as possible the position we have seen for eight years, of policemen on the Embankment and in other places insulated from the rest of the world in a glass cabinet.
LORD WALKDEN: We are anxious to do that as soon as possible.

RUSHDEN DISTRICT GAS BILL. [H.L.]
Report from the Committee of Selection that the Lord Saltoun be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee on the said Bill in the place of the Lord Wolverton: Read and agreed to.
House adjourned at six o'clock.