Lords Sitting of 14 March 1946

Preamble
The House met at four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers.
The Viscount: Craigavon—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.

MISCELLANEOUS FINANCIAL PROVISIONS BILL.
Brought from the Commons, read 1a, and to be printed.
POLICE BILL.
Brought from the Commons, read 1a, and to be printed
PUBLIC WORKS LOANS BILL.
Brought from the Commons, read 1a, and to be printed.

WATER (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Westwood.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
(The EARL OF DROGHEDA in the Chair.)
Clauses 1 to 38 agreed to.
Clause 39:
Power to borrow.
(2) Nothing in this Act shall authorise the exercise of any power of borrowing money or the making of any issue of capital otherwise than in compliance with the provisions of the Local Authorities Loans Act, 1945, or of any regulation for the time being in force under the Emergency Powers (Defence) Acts, 1939 and 1940, or of any order made under any such regulation.
LORD WESTWOOD LORD WESTWOOD moved, in subsection (2), to leave out "regulation for
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the time being in force under the Emergency Powers (Defence) Acts, 1939 and 1940," and insert "Defence Regulation within the meaning of the Supplies and Services (Transitional Powers) Act, 1945, for the time being having effect by virtue of that Act." The noble Lord said: This Amendment has been made necessary by the recent lapse of the Emergency Powers (Defence) Acts. The existing provision in the Bill must be amended to take account of the fact that Section 1 of the Supplies and Services (Transitional Powers) Act, 1945, provides that an Order in Council may direct that a Defence Regulation on the list scheduled to that Act (as are the Regulations in question) may direct that the Regulations shall have effect by virtue of this Act. Two such Orders in Council have already been made—S.R. and O., 1945, Nos. 1628 and 1629. The Amendment is no more than a technical Amendment designed to bring this Bill into line with an alteration in the other legislation referred to in this particular clause. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 25, line 4, leave out from ("any") to ("or") in line 6, and insert ("Defence Regulation within the meaning of the Supplies and Services (Transitional Powers) Act, 1945, for the time being have effect by virtue of that Act.")—Lord Westwood.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 39, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 40 to 52 agreed to.
Clause 53:
Provision of water supply for new buildings and houses.
(1) Subject to the provisions of this section, it shall be the duty of any person erecting or causing to be erected a building the erection of which is begun after the commencement of this Act, to make adequate provision to the satisfaction of the local authority, or in the case of a burgh having a dean of guild court, to the satisfaction of the dean of guild court, for a sufficient supply of wholesome water in pipes for the domestic purposes of the persons occupying or using the building.
LORD WESTWOOD LORD WESTWOOD moved, at the end of subsection (1), to insert:
"Provided that in the case of a building being a factory within the meaning of the Factories Act, 1937, other than a factory in which the production or the preparation of food or drink for human consumption is carried on by way of trade, where the Secretary of State, after consulting the local water authority, is satisfied that the authority would be unable to provide a sufficient supply of wholesome water in pipes for the purposes

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aforesaid without endangering their ability to meet existing obligations to supply water for any purpose or probable future requirements to supply water for domestic purposes or without having to incur unreasonable expense, and is satisfied that it would not be reasonably practicable to obtain a sufficient supply as aforesaid from any other source, it shall be a sufficient compliance with the requirements of this section if adequate provision is made to the satisfaction of the local authority or the dean of guild court, as the case may be, for the installation in accordance with any regulations which the Secertary of State may make of a sufficient supply of wholesome water in pipes for drinking, cooking and personal ablution and of a sufficient supply of suitable water in pipes for sanitary and other domestic purposes."
The noble Lord said: This Amendment has been drafted in fulfilment of a promise made on behalf of the Secretary of State when the Bill was in another place, and an assurance which I gave to the noble Earl, Lord Rosebery, when the Bill was being read a second time in your Lordships' House. The clause, as it stands, contains an absolute requirement that all buildings constructed after the commencement of the Act must contain adequate provision for a sufficient supply of wholesome water in pipes for the domestic purposes of the persons occupying or using the building. "Domestic purposes" are defined in Clause 9 as "drinking, washing, cooking, central heating and sanitary purposes." Now, it is fairly common in certain types of factories, for example, paper mills, which have to introduce a fairly large supply of non-wholesome water for trade purposes, in any case to use such water for sanitary purposes also. The requirements of the clause as drafted would prohibit this practice in the case of new buildings.
In response to pressing representations that such a categorical requirement to provide wholesome water for all domestic purposes in new industrial buildings might in practice prove onerous, if not impracticable, the Secretary of State (after very careful consideration of the many aspects of this problem) considers it not unreasonable to modify in some measure and subject to due safeguards the absolute requirements of the clause so as to permit some degree of relaxation in certain special circumstances. The proposed Amendment restricts the concession to cases where the Secretary of State, after consulting the local water authority, is satisfied that the authority could not
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having regard to prior obligations and existing commitments, afford a supply of wholesome water sufficient for the full range of "domestic purposes" and is satisfied that such a supply is not available to the factory concerned from any other source—for example, a well. Such cases would in practice be unlikely to occur except in rural areas remote from a public water supply. The degree of relaxation is limited to sanitary purposes and central heating.
I should add that, in the interests of public health, the proposed modification does not apply to factories manufacturing food or beverages for human consumption. As your Lordships will observe, any waiver of the normal requirements to provide wholesome water for all domestic purposes in new factory premises is further subject to regulations which the Secretary of State proposes to make stipulating certain physical precautions—for example, the distinguishing by colour or otherwise between pipes containing wholesome or non-wholesome water respectively, and the labelling of taps—against any possible confusion whether by interconnexion of the two systems or from ignorance or carelessness on the part of consumers. I should perhaps emphasize to your Lordships that, on public health grounds generally, we should not feel justified in extending this concession in favour of industry beyond what is envisaged by the terms of the Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 32, line 9, at end insert the said proviso.—(Lord Westwood.)
THE EARL OF SELKIRK THE EARL OF SELKIRK had an Amendment on the Paper, at the end of Subsection (1) to insert:
"Provided that in the case of a factory within the meaning of the Factories Act, 1937, where the local authority or dean of guild court, as the case may be, are satisfied that it would in the particular circumstances be unreasonable to require a supply of wholesome water to be provided for all domestic purposes, they may, with the approval of the Secretary of State, deem it a sufficient compliance with the requirements of this section if adequate provision is made for a sufficient supply of wholesome water in pipes for drinking, washing, and cooking, and for a sufficient supply of suitable water in pipes for central heating and sanitary purposes."
The noble Earl said: Clause 53 places a mandatory obligation on the owners of all new factories to ensure that drinking water only is used in radiators and sanitary

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conveniences. That is an onerous obligation which cannot have any correlated importance to public health. This is not a matter on which we need expect opinion; we are quite capable of forming a judgment for ourselves. If we have any doubt on this matter I would quote what the Under-Secretary of State said in another place:
"I say frankly that for sanitary purposes there is no case for wholesome water: central heating I would concede, and concede it easily."
Long standing practice has shown that process water is in appropriate cases satisfactory and suitable for these purposes and I do not think the noble Lord can quote a single instance of this use having had an injurious effect. This obligation has not been considered necessary by the Minister of Health in England and Wales. In the Water Act of 1945 such an obligation was not included. The Amendment which stands in my name applies only to a very limited number of cases, and the matter of the preparation of food does not arise; it applies exclusively to such cases as the production of paper and textiles. The local authority and the Secretary of State would have to give permission and I do not think it can be considered that the power would be liable to misuse in any form whatsoever. In these circumstances I think the differential burden which Scotland bears as compared with the rest of the country should be observed and that it is reasonable that a little further extension should be given rather than that action should be taken on the lines of the noble Lord, Lord Westwood's Amendment.
LORD WESTWOOD: All I can say in answer to my noble friend the Earl of Selkirk is that his Amendment is a similar Amendment to that which was moved in another place and which was, by leave, withdrawn. The Amendment I have submitted is as far as the Government are prepared to go.
LORD ALTRINCHAM: As my noble friend the Earl of Rosebery is unavoidably prevented from being here to-day and as this modification was introduced to meet representations made by him, I should like to thank the noble Lord opposite for moving his Amendment.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: In those circumstances I will not move my Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 53, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 54 to 72 agreed to.
Clause 73:
Local Inquiries.
(8) The Secretary of State may make orders as to the expenses incurred by the parties appearing at the inquiry and as to the parties by whom such expenses shall be paid.
LORD WESTWOOD LORD WESTWOOD moved, in subsection (8), to leave out "the inquiry" and insert "any inquiry to which the provisions of this section apply." The noble Lord said: This is a drafting Amendment which is considered necessary to make clear that the words "the inquiry" in line 37 on page 48 of the Bill relate to any inquiry that the Secretary of State may cause to be held under any of the provisions of Clause 73 and not only to inquiries held in pursuance of provisions of the First and Second Schedules covered by the immediately preceding subsection (7) of the clause.
Amendment moved—
Page 48, line 37, leave out ("the inquiry") and insert ("any inquiry to which the provisions of this section apply.")—(Lord Westwood.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 73, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
Schedules agreed to.

STATUTORY ORDERS PROCEDURE.
4.15 p.m.
LORD RANKEILLOURhad given Notice that he would ask His Majesty's Government whether they will consider the submission to the House of a draft Standing Order to provide that no Statutory Order subject to special parliamentary procedure, which is unopposed, shall become law without examination and approval by a Committee of one or other House of Parliament. The noble Lord said: My Lords, in putting the question which stands in my name I have to refer to the Statutory Orders (Special Procedure) Act of last year. This Act is not an easy one to read and I trust I shall not get lost in its mazes. It is not an exhilarating Act. At its worst I think it might serve as a soporific for the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack or the Lord Chairman should they suffer at any

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time from insomnia. I want to make one point, and one point only, which emerges from it—that is, that there will be a number of Statutory Orders which in some cases will supersede the present procedure by Private Bills. Very often such Orders will become law without any examination whatever upon their merits. What will happen is that an Order will be laid before Parliament if it complies with certain rules as to presentation, but those rules will not provide for any detailed examination by any persons whatsoever. Of course, petitions may be presented against it, and if those petitions are presented there is a very elaborate procedure as to how they are to be dealt with which I will not go into now, but if no petition is presented the Order may become law simply by the passing of a fortnight of time unless it is annulled in either House of Parliament.
I should like at this point to ask the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chancellor, what the procedure would be for annulling it. I imagine it would be comparatively simple here, but in another place would it have to be done by a Prayer late at night, or would the Chairman of Committees find time for it as he does now with an unopposed Private Bill? I think it is very unlikely that any annulment will take place, because if it is not sufficiently contentious to promote opposition it is unlikely that any member would propose its annulment and in any case he would have to do it within a fortnight. It does not at all follow that because a Private Bill is unopposed it may not contain some mischievous precedent or principle in it. I spoke on this matter before and I will not go into it again, but having been for eight years Chairman of the Unopposed Bills Committee in another place I know that it was not unusual for us to find that there was some mischievous precedent and one which we had to amend. There were such deficiencies not only in the ordinary Private Bills but in the Provisional Order Bills promoted by some Department, and therefore I suggest that some provision should be made to ensure that these Orders shall be properly considered on merits. I am not wedded to any special plan, but I do trust something will be provided. We had some discussion on this point before and it appeared in the course of the dis-
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cussion that it could not be done under Clause 9 of the Bill, that it would have to be done in some other manner, presumably by a new Standing Order. That and that only is the point I wish to press upon the Government now.
4.21 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD JOWITT): My Lords, under Section 9 of the Statutory Orders (Special Procedure) Act, 1945, it will be necessary for each House to adopt Standing Orders for the various purposes there set out, and, of course, apart from Section 9, under their inherent powers to regulate the procedure of the House. I understand arrangements are being made for the appropriate officers of the two Houses to confer. The Lord Chairman and the Chairman of the Ways and Means Committee with their advisers are in a position to submit draft Standing Orders to their respective Houses. There will, of course, be an opportunity of discussing them in the ordinary way. It is open to your Lordships, as to another place to debate any Standing Order.
It might be found in the course of experience that such a Standing Order as the noble Lord suggests would be desirable. I am, however, inclined to deprecate any action at the moment in your Lordships' House which would tie the hands of the Lord Chairman and the officers of the House either in their conference with representatives in another place or in the submissions which they would in due course make to your Lordships under Section 9 of the Statutory Orders (Special Procedure) Act. I think this is essentially a matter in which we shall learn by experience.
LORD RANKEILLOUR: My Lords, I thank the learned and noble Lord Chancellor. I quite understand that he cannot go any further at present in this matter.

PRIVATE LEGISLATION PROCEDURE (SCOTLAND) ACT.
Report from the Committee of Selection that the Lords following be proposed to the House as members of the Panel of Lords to act as Commissioners under the Act, namely:

Lord Fairfax of Cameron,

Lord Tweedsmuir.

Agreed to, and the said Lords appointed accordingly.

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932.
Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department extending Section 1 of the Act to the City of Wells:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and ordered to lie on the Table.

STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE.
Report from, That the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the Petition for the Great Western Railway Bill ought to be dispensed with: read and agreed to.