HL Deb 02 July 1946 vol 142 cc83-9

Other assets, to be transferred at option of the Board or of owners subject to arbitration in case of objection.

19.—(1) Interests of colliery concerns and of class A and class B subsidiaries thereof in any things (other than investments, interests in other concerns owned otherwise than as investments, cash or other liquid assets, patents or copyrights in registered designs, or the benefit of contracts) not falling within any of the preceding paragraphs, of whatsoever kind, except interests of such a concern or a class A or class B subsidiary thereof in iron and steel works, and except interests of such a concern or subsidiary in fixed and movable property used for coal carbonisation and coal products distillation activities allied with colliery activities where the exclusive or main purpose of the activities for which the property is so used is to supply coke to an iron and steel works operated by the concern or a subsidiary thereof or by a concern of which the colliery concern is a subsidiary.

LORD WINSTER moved at the end of Part 1 to insert:

"Curtilages and development sites.

9. In cases in which an interest in fixed property vests in the Board, whether without option or by virtue of the exercise of an option, and the owner of that interest has also an interest in land used exclusively or mainly for coal industry or transferred allied activities for which that property is used, or an interest in land owned by him exclusively for the purpose of having land available for use for such activities or an extension thereof, the interest of that owner in that land."

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I hope with your Lordships' permission I may take this and the following Amendment together. I hope that because, I think for the first time this afternoon, I am dealing with two non-contentious Amendments. I regret to say, however, that they are extremely complicated, and I may take a little time in explaining them. I assure your Lordships I shall take great pains to reduce what I have to say into the shortest possible compass.

Both these Amendments arise out of defects of importance, which the Board's advisers have pointed out in the First Schedule to the Bill. The defects are two in number. First of all, the Bill must deal with land immediately surrounding the colliery or other concern which the Board takes over. Such land falls into two categories. Land in the first category, that devoted exclusively to use by the colliery owner, must obviously pass to the Board. In the second category, the Board may wish to acquire other parts of the land, but the owner may be able to show a good case for retaining them. As the Bill stands, all such land is dealt with by paragraph 18, and is rendered subject to the option procedure. This is all right as regards land which the owner can show a good case for retaining; that is land in the second category; but it is not satisfactory as regards land which must pass to the Board—that is the land in the first category. The procedure by option would involve preparation of a very large number of option notices for dealing with land as to the destination of which there can be no question. The reason for having dealt with it in paragraph 18 is that the precise boundaries of what is to pass to the Board must be defined. It was thought that an option notice would be convenient for this purpose, but, on consideration, the Board's advisers have pointed out that an equally convenient method would be by a statement from the owner of what he considers is the land which passes to the Board under the Schedule, as now required under Clause 9 (1). The Government think that the Board's advisers are right. We therefore propose to include land in this category that is land which must go to the Board, in what has to pass to the Board without option. Accordingly, we propose a new paragraph 9, which first of all covers cases in which the owner of an interest in fixed property vesting in the Board has also an interest in land used exclusively or mainly for the coal industry or transferred allied activities for which that property is used. Land in this general class, but falling within the category which the owner can show good cause for retaining, is left in paragraph 18 by the proposed Amendments. If so amended, paragraph 18 will cover cases in which the owner of a fixed property vesting in the Board has also an interest in land used partly but not exclusively or mainly—those are the important words—for the coal industry or transferred allied activities for which that property is used. So much for the first defect and the steps which the Government propose to take to remedy it.

Now for the second defect. The First Schedule as it stands makes no provision for the Board acquiring land which is held by a colliery or other concern which passes to the Board for extension or development,. Such land could perhaps be acquired under the residual provisions of paragraph 19 of the Schedule, but the Government feel that such an important matter—and this is a highly important matter—ought to be dealt with expressly. In any case paragraph 19 deals only with colliery concerns and their subsidiaries. Its provisions would not extend to land held for extension or development by, for example, a transferred brickworks. The Amendments therefore deal with such land expressly. Where land is held exclusively for extension or development for colliery purposes, the new paragraph 9 will provide for its vesting in the Board without option. But where land is held partly for extension or development for colliery purposes and partly for other purposes, the new paragraph 18 will provide for the exercise of an option either by the Board or by the owner.

In conclusion, there are two points in connexion with these matters to which I think I should call particular attention, because they have aroused some comment. It has been said that the following point needed to be clearly brought out: first, that the proposed new paragraph 9 will not vest automatically any land as to which there may be any reasonable question whether it ought to vest. The answer is that the new paragraph 9 has been carefully drawn so as to include only land which obviously must vest. It is confined to land in actual use exclusively or mainly for activities that are to be transferred to the Board, and land held exclusively for development for such activities. As to such land, there can be no reasonable question. Land which a composite concern might make a case for retaining for its non-coal activities is outside the new paragraph 9. In so far as it is within the scope of the Amendment at all, it is made subject to option in paragraph 18, in Part III of the Schedule.

The next point is the comment that the proposal to vest land held for development is not a proposal to vest without compensation property not taken into account in the fixing by the Greene Tribunal of the global sum. The proposal will not in any way affect the compensation structure of the Bill. There may be a fear that land held for development which is put in Part I of the Schedule so as to vest with the option (that is land held exclusively for development for activities that are to be transferred to, the Board) will be brought within global compensation simply by being put in Part I of the Schedule. There is no ground for any such fear. A decision as to what is within the global compensation has to be taken separately as to every transferred interest. Clause 11 (4) provides for that. Under the Bill that decision is entirely independent of what part of the Schedule a given transferred interest is in; that decision rests entirely on the same test as was put to the Greene Tribunal, namely, the wages ascertainments practice for deciding what is within the coal industry. Thus land for development which vests under the proposed Amendments will be the subject of compensation outside the global sum entirely irrespective of whether it vests under Part I or Part III of the Schedule, so long as it is of a kind treated as outside the coal industry under the wages ascertainments practice.

I apologize for detaining your Lordships so long with such a very long explanation upon a complicated matter. As I say, the Amendments deal matters of the first importance and it was necessary to give this explanation.

Amendment moved— Page 56, line 38, at end insert the said new paragraph.—(Lord Winster.)

VISCOUNT SWINTON

My Lords, the House will be obliged to the Minister for having given a full explanation of what he truly says are very extensive and important modifications made in the Bill at this stage. I think that they are wise amendments, and I am so advised. He has anticipated, by what he has said, two questions which I put when I saw the Amendments on the paper. Clearly it seemed that this was a more convenient form than the serving of a great many option notices. It did seem important to be sure, however, that nothing would pass automatically under Part I, I think it is, of the Schedule, in regard to which the owners ought reasonably to have the opportunity of going to arbitration. That I understand is safeguarded. The other point—and, quite frankly, after the debate we have had this afternoon I was a little more anxious about it—was whether the Government was going to try and get something for nothing again. But I am also advised, and the Minister has confirmed it, that the compensation is not affected by this alteration. If the article transferred comes into wages ascertainments, then it goes into the Greene award. If it does not go into the wages ascertainments then it does not go into the Greene award, and the man has to be paid for it separately.

I think your Lordships would be well advised to accept this Amendment. I would only add that here is an Amendment of very great importance, varying the Bill in a marked degree. It does seem to me to be fortunate that there are several stages of debate in this House which enable the Government to make such a very large and important Amendment to their own Bill.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD FAIRFAX OF CAMERON moved, in paragraph 10, to leave out sub-paragraph (a). The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move the amendment standing in my name. This Amendment goes with the next two in my name. As they have been fairly well discussed, I do not think I need go into them any more.

Amendment moved— Page 57, line 5, leave out sub-paragraph (a)."—(Lord Fairfax of Cameron).

LORD AMMON

My Lords, the noble Lord raised this matter on the Committee stage and my noble and learned friend on the Woolsack gave a promise that it would be considered. In pursuance of the sweet reasonableness and tolerance which the Government wish to show, I am happy to accept this Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD FAIRFAX OF CAMERON

I beg to move the next Amendment standing in my name.

Amendment moved— Page 57, line 12, leave out from ("in") to ("this") in line 13.—(Lord Fairfax of Cameron.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD AMMON

My Lords, I beg to move the next Amendment, which is, in effect, a drafting Amendment. Some question arose on the Committee stage as to a certain amount of ambiguity, and this makes the matter clear.

Amendment moved— Page 57, line 20, after the second ("wharves") insert ("in").

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD AMMON

My Lords, I beg to move the next Amendment which is consequential.

Amendment moved— Page 57, line 20, after ("and") insert ("in").

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD FAIRFAX OF CAMERON moved, after paragraph 17, to insert: 18. Interests of colliery concerns and of Class A subsidiaries thereof in fixed and moveable property used for the purposes of the making of bricks, tiles or earthenware pipes, or other products manufactured from colliery debris or brick clay or earth or in connection with those purposes and interests of such concerns and subsidiaries in consumable or spare stores available for such activities as are mentioned in this paragraph.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I should like to express my gratitude to His Majesty's Government for informing me that they accept this Amendment. I sincerely hope it will make sweeter and easier the task of putting this part of the Bill into effect. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 58, line 7, at end insert the said new paragraph.—(Lord Fairfax of Cameron.)

LORD AMMON moved as an Amendment to the Amendment proposed by Lord Fairfax of Cameron, at the end to insert: Where an option is exercised for the vesting in the Board of an interest in property mentioned in this paragraph, the activities for which that property is used or that interest is owned shall be treated for the purposes of paragraphs 3 to 8 of this Schedule as if those activities had been colliery production activities.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is really a consequential Amendment to that just moved. I beg to move.

Amendment to the proposed Amendment moved— At end of proposed Amendment insert the said words.—(Lord Ammon.)

On Question, Amendment to the proposed Amendment agreed to.

On Question, original Amendment, as amended, agreed to.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, in paragraph 18 to leave out from "land" and insert: used partly (but not exclusively or mainly) for coal industry or transferred allied activities for which that property is used, or an interest in land owned by him partly (but not exclusively) for the purpose of having land available for use for such activities or an extension thereof, the interest of that owner in that land.

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment is really consequential upon what you have done.

Amendment moved— Page 58, line 10, leave out from ("land") to the end of paragraph 18 and insert the said words.—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, in paragraph 19, to leave out "falling within" and to insert "rendered subject to vesting in the Board by virtue of." The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved.— Page 58, line 20, leave out ("falling within") and insert ("rendered subject to vesting in the Board by virtue of").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.