SCOTTISH AIR LINES.

HL Deb 14 February 1946 vol 139 cc587-615

5.54 p.m.

THE EARL OF GLASGOW rose to ask His Majesty's Government whether they are aware that unless immediate assurances are given to Scotland for freedom to form a Scottish Public Utility Corporation to own, operate and develop Prestwick Airport and a similar Corporation to operate Scottish Air Lines with opportunity equal to Scottish shipping, the country is faced with the prospect of a strong separatist movement; and to move for Papers. The noble Earl said: My Lords, since the last debate on Civil Aviation in your Lordships' House, the Government have thrown two sops to Scotland: a repetition of a previous promise to designate Prestwick as an international airport, and a promise that amongst the regional organizations which are to be set up there should be one for Scotland. Here may I say that we have not yet heard that Prestwick had actually been designated. While we are grateful for the promise of Prestwick, nothing yet has been conceded which will allow Scottish enterprise the same chances in the air and the same opportunities of competition on world air routes as other countries. During the debate in another place, when the Parliamentary Secretary was explaining about the Regional Boards, a Scottish Member asked: "But what about the control of Scottish Air Services?" The reply was: "That is another question." It is this question of the control of Scottish Air Services which is the crux of the matter and which the Scottish people are united and determined to have settled in their favour.

On November 9 I ventured to draw the attention of the Government to the Scottish point of view in civil aviation. I said then that opposition to that policy would grow to formidable dimensions unless assurance was given on one fundamental point: a measure of control for Scottish interests and Scottish enterprise. In spite of the concessions which I have mentioned, no such assurance has been given. You will appreciate that we have a shipping point of view. When, through the enterprise of Scotsmen, the first practical steamship, the Comet, was launched on the Clyde, Scottish shipping firms seized on this entirely new idea of the steam age and developed it in a way which has been beneficial not only to Scotland but to the whole nation. Our industry, prosperity and employment have, for generations, been tied to the overseas carrying trade.

Now again, something has come into being—the air age—and Scotland looks on air commerce as the biggest single opportunity which has offered itself since the inception of the first steamship. Such an opportunity has taken hold of the minds and hearts of Scotsmen, and they have no intention whatever of having such a splendid chance reduced any further by the restricted outlook of Whitehall officials, who apparently cannot see any further than the outskirts of the capital. I ask your Lordships to imagine what would have resulted if, at the outset, the management of Scottish shipping had been put into the hands of Cockneys who had no interest in it and were determined to prevent its growth, and if Scottish shipping firms had been prohibited from being formed.

Those of your Lordships who have studied Scottish history—I do not know how many there are who have done so—will recall the story of the Friar of Tong-land, near Kirkcudbright in Galloway, the first Scottish pioneer of aviation, who, in the 15th Century, tried to take off from the top of a tower with a pair of home made wings. There was nothing wrong with the Friar's spirit but there was something wrong with the wings, so he fell ignominiously to earth. To-day, both in spirit and in technique, Scottish aviation is in the forefront, but the present Government is prepared to see it fall like the poor Friar of Tongland, and are content to see it lie. That is what has been happening in Scottish aviation to-day. I do not want to be unnecessarily rude, but I must say that, by their practice and stupid policy, the Government are manufacturing Scottish nationalists.

Not for hundreds of years has the feeling of Scotsmen of all parties and all classes, I will not say about Englishmen but about English interference with and neglect of Scottish interest, been so strong. I was informed by one of the Scottish Nationalist organizations that during the last few months recruits have been coming in steadily and that most of those joining had had no opportunity of studying the propaganda but were just coming in because they thought Scotsmen had not had a fair deal. Your Lordships have very little knowledge of the strong feeling which has swept through Scotland during the last few months on this question of aviation. Why should you? Your Lordships never read the Scottish papers, or very few of you do, which have so magnificently, time and time again, backed up the national aspirations. I believe the English Press did mention the meeting of the so-called Scottish Parliament in Edinburgh, but the significance of it was quite overlooked. At that meeting a resolution, moved by the Scottish Council of Industry, was passed, the gist of which was that Scotland demanded devolution in all matters pertaining to civil aviation. There have been other gatherings of representative bodies throughout the country in which resolutions on the same lines have been passed.

The Scottish people are united on one thing, devolution in these matters, which would include the operation of their own air services, internal and overseas, the control and enlargement of Scottish airfields, the right to make aero engines for ourselves and the world, and the repair of aircraft. We want to be able to do these things free from obstruction and interference from London officials, who know little of, and, I. think, care less for, our interests. We have got the ability, the enterprise, and the men to make a great success of it. We do not wish to depart from the Government's principle of Government ownership, but we want that ownership to be Scottish and not English.

May I strike a personal note? I am not a Scottish Nationalist; I do not want to repeal the Union; I am not a fanatic of any kind. Nevertheless, I hope your Lordships do not think that all men North of the Border should speak and act exactly like Englishmen, because, of course, there is a difference between the two countries, in law and history, for instance. Therefore, if some people in Scotland think nationally, it does not mean that they think parochially, or that they wish to sever relations. One of my reasons for putting this question is to warn the Government against separatism or a strong desire for devolution, which I, as well as many Scotsmen, would greatly deplore. One of our main charges against the Government—a charge made by Lord Selkirk the other day in Glasgow, which I repeat here—is that the Government's policy is a policy of concentration in London, which is now recognized as contrary to the public interest in this island. The Barlow Report states that the continued trend of the industrial population to London and the Home Counties constitutes social, economic and strategical problems which demand immediate attention. It further says that leadership is becoming increasingly centred in London, to the disadvantage of the social, cultural and civic life of the provinces. I would remind your Lordships that the findings 'of this Committee are not questioned by any political Party. In my humble opinion, the Government should make a clean-cut statement as to whether nationalization means centralization. It is right and proper that Scotland should be told what she is to expect in this matter.

The characteristic feature of the White Papers is that they lay down implicitly that Scotland is to have no contact with the outside world except through London. This will have much the same effect as the Navigation Laws of the eighteenth century by which English merchants had the monopoly of trading with the Colonies and the Plantations. It was the economic powers to which those laws gave rise which, more than anything else, forced the Act of Union of 1707 on Scotland. It is interesting to note that when the Parliamentary Secretary was explaining with pride the commencement of the new air services, he dealt exclusively with those in or out of London. I believe that by excluding Scottish subjects from full freedom to control their own commerce, the Government is infringing the Act of Union. Section 4 of the Act reads as follows. I know I am not a lawyer, and I shall probably be taken up on this, but I think it is a point which is worth mentioning. That all the subjects of the United Kingdom of Great Britain shall, from and after the Union, have full freedom and intercourse of trade and navigation to and from any port or place within the said United Kingdom, and the Dominions and Plantations thereunto belonging; and that there be a communication of all other rights, privileges and advantages, which do or may belong to the subjects of either Kingdom. If that means anything, it means that the Scottish people have the same rights of trade and navigation in the air as the English, as indeed they have in the sea for their shipping, and should be accorded permission by the Government in London to shape their policy to that effect.

If that argument has any legal flaws—and I shall probably be told by noble and learned Lords that it may have—there is another aspect. If the wording of the section is intended to appy only to individuals, the implication surely is that if Scotsmen are to have the same intercourse, together with rights, privileges and advantages as English subjects, then there should be representatives from Scotland on the Scottish Aviation Board in London in order to protect Scottish interests. I put that point and I hope some noble and learned Lord will take me up and give his opinion. As a working woman in Paisley wrote to me, "We are not the scullery maid of England, fit only to pick up the crumbs which fall from her table." That is quite true. We are not a province of England; we are a nation, the other kingdom of this island.

I do solemnly warn the Government to expect a strong separatist movement or a movement towards devolution in the near future unless an assurance is given to Scotland that its main international airport, Prestwick, which we look upon as the equivalent to the River Clyde, will be owned and managed by a Scottish Public Utility Board under Scottish direction, which will be able to develop it to its fullest extent, and further, unless full freedom is given to a similar Board to operate Scottish airlines on the world air-routes, with every bit as much opportunity and freedom to face the commercial competition of other countries, including England, as has been enjoyed, for the benefit of the whole of Great Britain, by Scottish shipping. I shall be told that a Scottish Board for the control of Scottish aerodromes has already been conceded. That is just a gesture; such a Board may be Scottish in composition, but it will have to take its orders from London.

Scotland has no intention of being dragged down by the bungling of English officials, however well intentioned. They know little of our needs and interests, and if they did know anything about them, they would probably do nothing to safeguard them. Therefore it may be worth while to ask the Minister if he appreciates the possibilities of Scottish opinion, and if he realizes that the only industry, apart from shipping, which is big enough to justify a separatist movement is aviation, and that Eire has, in aviation alone, justified her freedom from the ineptitudes of British air policy. Immediate freedom for these Scottish Boards or Corporations to enter world commerce is the only alternative I can offer for avoiding drastic separatist action from a strongly determined people who are being frustrated and exasperated to a grievous extent. I am asking my noble friend this question on an auspicious date; to-day all the birds get friendly with each other. Is it too much to hope that the noble Lord will use his influence on the Government in such a way as to grant the Scottish people what they so ardently desire, and in that way bring back that friendly and good neighbourly feeling which has existed between the two kingdoms for so long a period? I beg to move for Papers.

6.9 p.m.

VISCOUNT SWINTON

My Lords, perhaps a mere Englishman may be allowed for a moment or two to intervene, if only to express some sympathy. I do not hesitate to do that, and indeed, to venture some suggestions, because I think the noble Earl will agree that the proposals which were made during the lifetime of the last Government, after very careful consultation between the Secretary of State for Scotland and myself, represented proposals which were at the same time practical and also fair and consonant with Scottish interests and Scottish, desires. Certainly I found a great deal of concurrence upon that in many quarters in Scotland—not by any means all in one Party.

Scotland's interest in aviation is perfectly natural. It is not only that she desires to have her share, her rightful share, in all developments, but, I think, she has a particular interest in aviation. Communications are difficult in Scotland, and, therefore, she has a great interest in aviation both internal and external. I do not think that it is too much to say that internal communications, intersected by waterways and mountains, are so difficult that you are, in fact, able to-day to accomplish, by air, journeys in matters of minutes which would take almost an equivalent number of hours if you attempted to do them by road, rail and water—and you probably might find that you had to do them by a combination of all three.

Then Scotland is rightly interested in external air services. She is interested because of her great business interests and also by reason of the beauty of her country which is an attraction that draws many people from other lands. Her interest is not merely to be well served, her interest is also to develop services for herself as well and not to be dependent entirely upon outside concerns. I do think it would be profoundly unfortunate if the air which ought to unite nations by bringing them closer together became something which divided this kingdom. And indeed—I am sure the noble Earl will agree with me in this—Scotland realises to the full that she cannot be separatist in this matter, that she depends on these links and desires these links. But—and this I hope is what the Minister is going to deal with in his answer—she rightly claims that Scottish enterprise and Scottish experience should be able to play its full part. I stress both. There is no lack of enterprise and no lack of experience in Scotland. Actually to-day, and for years past, the Scottish air services, Scottish Airways and Scottish Allied Airways—another one, I think, has come into being and is actually flying, very sportingly, some planes now—have been conducted by Scottish boards whose members know very well the local conditions of Scotland and the local needs. The boards of Scottish Airways and Scottish Allied Airways have seen what the services are that are needed in Scotland, and I believe that, within their limitations, they are giving good service.

In passing, I would observe that the aviation adventure on the part of a friar whose name I did not quite catch will not be regarded as a prototype of civil aviation in Scotland. They want, in Scotland, to have a fair chance, and we had proposed to reserve for Scottish enterprises certain services even of those which would start at once. But I want to put this most sincerely to the Minister—we wish to have an entirely independent tribunal to which anybody who wished to conduct a new airline along a new route could go for the purpose of satisfying that tribunal that he was competent, technically and financially competent, and that he would comply with the essential conditions such as treating his pilots properly and so on.

We regard that as essential—and may I say that I am not trying to make a Party point of this. I feel sure that the noble Lord who is going to reply will appreciate that I feel far too keenly about this to make it a Party matter. The noble Lord has made an agreement now with America. It all depends on whether we can be efficient as to whether or not the agreement is going to be any good. To-day, you cannot tell what opportunities are going to develop. You cannot tell it with regard to passenger routes and certainly not with regard to freight. There will be innumerable ways in which air transport will develop—certainly in Scotland and for the use of Scotland. So long as you have an independent tribunal to which people can complain—and not only, or primarily, to which people can complain—

THE EARL OF GLASGOW

On the American model—

VISCOUNT SWINTON

Certainly, on the American model—but it must be independent. The tribunal should be one to which people can go and say: "I want to establish an air service. I am prepared to do that and there is a need." I do not think Scotland is asking for any undue preference in this matter. I believe that the Scottish Peers who are here would say that if they could be given a fair chance and a fair hearing and if the tribunal held that there was a better enterprise that would give Scotland better service, they would take their beating and consent to be cut out. But they say: "Give us a fair chance. Give us a fair field—an opportunity to make our case before an independent tribunal."

I want to ask the Minister how under this system, which I understand he is bound to carry through, of just nationalizing everything and letting no new enterprise come in, is Scotland—or England indeed for that matter—going to have a chance of making her complaint. This is a two-fold point. If you are not allowed to serve yourselves—as I think you should be—how are you going to get good service provided for you, and what powers is this body going to have to say that these services are fairly demanded and that they shall run?

I do not wish to add more than a sentence or two about airfields. Scotland developed Prestwick, it is true, with a good deal of help from the Government. But that was so in the case of a great many other airfields all over the country. And I want to put this to the Minister with what, I hope, he will consider sweet reasonableness—if Scottish interests, a Scottish public utility company, wishes to operate Prestwick and develop it then really for the sake of uniformity need it all be put in a straight waistcoat of nationalization or cannot they have the chance of running their own airfield with their own public utility?

6.21 p.m.

THE DUKE OF MONTROSE

My Lords, I rise to support the plea of my noble and gallant friend the Earl of Glasgow in favour of retaining control of Prestwick Airport and also the development of Scottish airlines in Scottish hands. I do so naturally having been an ardent worker for Scottish devolution (which is retaining control of our Scottish affairs in our own hands) for many years and therefore I support the noble Lord's plea. But I think he might have based his plea on better grounds. I resent the statement that he based his plea on the ground that there is a strong separatist movement in Scotland to-day. There is no such movement in Scotland to-day. Nobody is asking for separation in Scotland to-day.

THE EARL OF GLASGOW

The noble Duke is suffering from a travesty of inexactitude.

THE DUKE OF MONTROSE

I think what the noble Earl has in mind is the Scottish nationalist movement. Twenty years ago I was a leader on behalf of the Scottish Nationalist Party and I know that after a very short time we found there were people in the Party who were working for separation. I fought it with all the strength I could. I would not have separation, but I could not get my way and so I left the Party. When I left nearly everyone else left too. Some of them came into the Liberal Party which had sponsored devolution for 27 years, some went into the Labour Party and some into the Tory Party. The only few left were irreconcilables who called themselves Nationalists. Anyone who has been in politics for any length of time knows the bugbear that extremists are. I was very foolish. I let myself in three times for fighting as a Tory candidate, and I know that my greatest bugbear was the dyed-in-the-wool Tory. So I know perfectly well what damage an extremist can do but nowadays I think devolution is making progress.

The Labour Government have pledged themselves to bring in a Bill on the lines of self-government in domestic affairs. As regards the Tory Party a candidate who was returned to Parliament only yesterday said that Prestwick must continue as a number one international airport under Scottish control and that this great Scottish airport must be maintained in preference to the bureaucratic dictatorship from Whitehall. He said that he stood for unity, that he favoured Scottish control over their own affairs and that the grip by Whitehall must be loosened. That is what a Tory candidate who was returned to Parliament yesterday with a majority of over four thousand votes, thanks very largely to his devolutional programme, has said. The Liberals have supported it for 27 years, and I feel devolution is now making progress.

Prestwick and the development of our airlines is only one matter. We have questions concerning the Forth Road Bridge, the Tay Bridge and the West Coast ports, the hydro-electric scheme and the nationalization of water and of land. If devolution was necessary in days gone past it is doubly necessary now if we are going to have nationalization of our air, nationalization of our land and nationalization of our water supply. As for authority in Scotland, is it going to be subject to long distance control in Whitehall nearly 400 miles outside our borders? Your Lordships will realize that in the British Isles there are five or six different forms of government. There is a Government in Westminster dealing with English affairs. There is one for Scotland through St. Andrew's House with a Secretary of State in charge of eighteen Departments, in charge of Scottish affairs. In Ulster there is a democratic Parliament dealing with Irish affairs and in the Isle of Man there is one of the oldest Parliaments in existence. Then there are the legislative Courts dealing with the Channel Islands affairs and the system in control of the affairs of Southern Ireland. There are six different forms of government in the British Isles but Scotland is the only country of the whole lot except England whose affairs are managed by a bureaucracy in Whitehall, by a single man, a Secretary of State who has the power of a dictator, and who can and does issue orders which have the force of an Act of Parliament. Every other State in the British Isles can deal with things within their own borders, but Scotland cannot, and I say that as regards our important interests and in view of the tremendously hard work here in Westminster and of the tremendous pressure of work in Westminster, the time has come when devolution must seriously be considered. I think myself that we should begin by getting control of our airlines at Prestwick. We are told that the date for the introduction of a change of management is to be April the first. April 1 is All Fool's Day.

6.28 p.m.

LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE

My Lords, I should like to intervene for a few moments and to remind your Lordships that I have had to answer questions on this particular subject of Prestwick airport in three debates in six years and as my noble friend knows, in the files of the Air Ministry I have put many things on paper dealing with this particular airport. There may be a danger of some confusion between very right national sentiments and hard commercial -and technical facts as regards the future of the airport. Prestwick Airport fulfils, broadly speaking, a dual function. It is what is called a designated airport. What benefits are conferred on an airport which bears the label "designated" I have not found out.

THE EARL OF GLASGOW

It has not been designated yet. That is the point I wanted to make.

LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE

It is to be -designated. It is -a most valuable relief landing ground to the main centre of the Empire, London, and we shall need probably two large relief landing grounds, if not three, in addition to the main one in London and probably one in South Wales and one in Cornwall and undoubtedly at Prestwick. Then the second role of Prestwick is as a main traffic centre, and here is where I think there is some danger of confusion. Prestwick is a good airport made mainly by Exchequer money as a necessary wartime work. There is a good deal of nonsense talked about the wonderful weather there. It was mentioned only recently, in another place, that a particular member tried to get into Prestwick and three times out of four he was fogged. Prestwick has good weather.

THE EARL OF GLASGOW

I am sorry to interrupt, but I really must protest. As a matter of fact, there were only seven days (hiring the last year, or one year, on which there was fog at Prestwick. The unfortunate thing, however, was that the late Secretary of State for Air arrived there to open a road in a fog, and that has undoubtedly gone down to posterity.

LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE

Seven days? I think if the noble Lord will check other places, he will find that they have not had appreciably more than seven days' fog. It is true that Sir Archibald Sinclair arrived in a fog. I can remember a most unpleasant half-hour after crossing the Atlantic in a Liberator when we did not know whether we were going to get in or not, because we did not know whether the fog would clear from Prestwick in time. That was my own personal experience.

The runways at Prestwick are good, but unless an enormous amount of money is spent, including the moving of a railway, they are never going to be as good as Heath Row. However, having said that, le me say at once from considerable experience that Prestwick is a first-class airport. But as to whether Prestwick Airport should be operated by a Scottish Utility Corporation or by money from the British taxpayer, depends on whether Prestwick is going to attract enough traffic to make it worth while for transatlantic and transworld aircraft to stop at that airport. If Scotland and the Northern cities south of the Border can produce enough traffic to make it attractive to operators to land there, then undoubtedly they will.

If, on the other hand, sufficient in-and-out traffic is not offered, I think it is only right that Prestwick should be by-passed or overflown unless there is a proposition that stoppages at Prestwick should be compulsory in order to fulfil national Scottish aspirations, and the extra cost of diversion of such stops should be borne by the operator concerned. I do not think we are entitled to go further and advocate a wide extension of Prestwick, and at all times say that it should be a first-class international airport. We are entitled to know: Do they advocate that all or some aircraft flying from the United States should compulsorily stop at Prestwick? The second question I would ask is: Do they advocate that some services crossing the Atlantic should compulsorily be stopped at Prestwick irrespective of the wish of the passenger to get to another destination as quickly as possible, with the minimum number of landings?

If it is argued that Scottish traffic needs are the test, then let it be so. Whether this airport be operated by a Scottish Utility Corporation or by the Air Ministry—and I have great sympathy for the method of operating by a Scottish Utility Corporation—if the traffic needs of Scotland is to be the yardstick, then let it be so. It does not matter under which system that airport is operated, there will be a constant stream of aircraft in and out. But if, on the other hand, noble Lords ask for a Government decision to develop Prestwick and compulsorily make aircraft stop there on national and political grounds, then indeed I believe they will be encouraging a very considerable separatist movement south of the Border.

6.38 p.m.

LORD SALTOUN

My Lords, I do not think I shall take up your time for very long. I am approaching this matter from a different angle. Only two days ago in this House I heard the noble Marquess of Aberdeen tell His Majesty's Government that there were only two subjects on which the whole Scottish nation was united, one was the Forth Bridge, and the other was Prestwick Airport. If I say a thing like that, it is merely the expression of opinion of a humble member of your Lordships' House. But when my noble friend the Marquess of Aberdeen says that, I would like to say that there is no man who, by his character, by his ability, and by his wide acquaintance with every class of Scottish society, is better able to speak for a very large portion of Scotland than the noble Marquess of Aberdeen.

Therefore I do ask His Majesty's Government to weigh very carefully what he said last Tuesday on that subject, although it was merely thrown out in the course of a speech. This question is part of a very much larger question, one into which my noble friend the Duke of Montrose has dived somewhat deeply. Not very long ago I heard the noble Leader of the House say that in a very short time frontiers would be as obsolete as bows and arrows, and he deplored all these questions which aroused irritations between peoples. I should be very sorry indeed if anything should occur to weaken the intimate and close union between England and Scotland into one Great Britain, because if you put a rope between two persons or two animals, or two of anything, they are going to pull on it, and how far they pull no man can tell in advance.

How far they have pulled in the case of this once United Kingdom your Lordships may know when you consider those of our people who were lost in the Battle of the Atlantic. I feel very strongly on this question, and if His Majesty's Government, really as the noble Duke hints, have got any prospect of definitely lessening the tie between England and Scotland, I think they will be quite definitely false to the opinion and the principles expressed by the noble Leader of the House in that debate the other day. It will certainly be an indication to me that the ideas which I have cherished all my life have passed away from the world.

The point I am trying to make is this. You have got this intense feeling in Scotland on these questions. Nobody should know better than His Majesty's Government what tremendous effects might be wrought by intense feeling on any particular subject, and I do feel that that feeling has got to be allayed in some way or other. I do not know how the noble Lord, who is going to answer this, proposes to allay it, but I do urge upon His Majesty's Government and upon him that something must be done. When speaking on a subject cognate to this in my hearing, he said His Majesty's Government in this matter were not going to make the mistakes of our ancestors. I read into that statement, the implication that His Majesty's Government were not going to make mistakes at all! But I do urge them at any rate not to make a mistake on this particular point, and that something must be done to allay the present very violent state of feeling in Scotland on this matter.

6.39 p.m.

LORD SEMPILL

My Lords, I rise to join your Lordships who have already spoken in supporting the Motion raised by my noble friend the Earl of Glasgow. I would like to ask the Minister for Civil Aviation if in his reply he would clear up one point. In the White Paper recently issued it reads that—" Until Heath Row is ready, Hum, near Bournemouth, Prestwick in Scotland, and possibly one other airport will be designated as transoceanic airports." This gives the impression that when Heath Row is ready, all trans-oceanic air traffic will flow to and from this designated airport—Heath Row. If this is in fact to be the case, presumably the Minister feels that Heath Row, when finished, will be able to carry all the traffic that is being divided until it is ready between three other airports. Perhaps he will be able to clear up this point. I support the suggestion for the establishment of a Corporation in Scotland which has been recommended by all noble Lords who have spoken. Surely Scotland has every claim to organize and control her own air transport through a State Corporation similar in general set-up to the three that the Minister has already set up. Scotland has certainly earned her place in the air-world by virtue of the fact that in these islands the first corporate entity to be set up was the Blair Atholl Syndicate, established in the very early days to design, build and fly aircraft.

In addition to that, the work of the late Lord Kelvin of Glasgow has had a profound effect on the development of instruments for aircraft purposes. But the other pioneers, those of to-day, have played a great part in the development of air transport as, for example, Mr. John Sword, Captain Fresson, Mr. George Nicholson, and the honourable Member for Caithness and Sutherland. I hope the Minister may be able to give some indication as to what is going to happen to the services organized by different companies. Take the example of Allied Airways. I think the development costs of Allied Airways run to something in the neighbourhood of £30,000. Is a scheme of fair compensation to be arranged?

In connexion with the airport at Aberdeen, established by Allied Airways, there are other organizations there such as a flying club and a social club. Could not they be released so that their amenities might be made available? Perhaps the Minister could indicate as to whether, and if so, how, it is intended to utilize the services of these pioneers. For example, would the honourable Member for Caithness and Sutherland, who has pioneered Air Transport in Scotland, be eligible to sit on the board of a Scottish airways corporation, assuming that one is to be set up by His Majesty's Government:? With these few words, as the time is getting late, I would like to end and say how warmly I support the noble Earl's Motion, and that I hope that when my noble friend, also a Scot, comes to reply, he will give sympathetic consideration to these developments in Scotland.

6.44 p.m.

THE MINISTER FOR CIVIL AVIATION (LORD WINSTER)

My Lords, this debate has ranged very wide indeed, and far away from the subject of the Motion. We have touched upon an enormous number of subjects which have not the remotest connexion with civil aviation whatsoever. Civil aviation matters and policies have to be decided, as has been said by one noble Lord this afternoon, very much upon a basis of extremely hard facts, and to the best of my recollection the only attempt to introduce really hard facts and arguments into this debate was made by an Englishman who apologized for intervening in it£the noble Viscount Lord Swinton. I must, in fairness to Scotland, point out that the arguments which he advanced were, in large part, demolished by the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye. The Motion asks me to set up a Scottish corporation to administer Prestwick, and another corporation to operate Scottish airlines. Both proposals are contrary to the declared policy of the Government and, therefore, I regret that I am unable to accept them.

I take this opportunity of thanking the noble Earl for his kindness in informing me what he proposed to say to-day; I appreciated his courtesy in that respect. Therefore, I hope he will not take offence at my saying that I thought he supported his argument with very many extravagant remarks of an extremely nationalist nature and introduced practically no factual arguments whatever in support of his Motion. I remember, in particular, one remark which the noble Earl made. He said there was nothing in our policy which would allow Scottish enterprise the same opportunities of competition on world air routes as other countries. I wish the noble Earl would think in terms of the United Kingdom, as I do, and not in terms of Scotland and England. What are those other countries—America, or what?

LORD SALTOUN

Does the noble Lord mean Great Britain or the United Kingdom?

LORD WINSTER

Let us say Great Britain, if that will give more pleasure.

THE EARL OF GLASGOW

If I may interrupt the noble Lord for a moment, I would explain that all Scotland wants is to run its own air services and its own airfields—in fact, to run its own show, separate from England.

LORD WINSTER

The meaning of those words, so far as I can see, is that the noble Earl would wish Scotland to be treated as a completely separate country in the operation of airlines, and, therefore, at complete liberty to run in competition with the airlines of England. I do not think that is a proposal which will commend itself to the good sense of your Lordships, and it was remarks such as that which led me to say I thought the noble Earl's speech contained many extravagant statements. I wish to say nothing whatever in this debate to exacerbate feelings, but will address my remarks to arguments which I think are based upon more good sense than that. I am not actuated, nor is any member of the Government, by any prejudice in this or anything else to do with Scottish aspirations. On the contrary, as my remarks will show, I have given most careful thought to considering how Scottish aims can be substantially met. I think I may fairly claim that the very many Scottish deputations which I have received on these matters have recognized this attitude on my part and have gone away satisfied that I wish well to Prestwick and to all connected with aviation in Scotland, even if I have not been able to grant all their demands.

I feel it necessary to say something about the history of Prestwick aerodrome, but not at any very great length. The aerodrome was formed in July, 1937, by Scottish Aviation, Limited, who undertook an Air Ministry contract for an elementary civilian flying school. In November, 1939, the aerodrome was requisitioned by the Air Ministry and became a Royal Air Force station. The station's services, however, continued to be carried on by Scottish Aviation, Limited, under the terms of the contract with the Air Ministry. It is agreed that Scottish Aviation carried our their contract efficiently. The expenditure, however, was heavy, and, as has been mentioned by several speakers, the company's task was greatly facilitated by the fact that Government money was available.

Scottish enterprise was certainly in evidence in the development of Prestwick, but the Government in all contributed some£2,000,000. Now the Scottish Aviation Company have been notified by the Air Ministry that the contract will terminate on March 31, on which date an airport manager, representing the Ministry of Civil Aviation, will take over the management of the aerodrome. We have, however, informed Scottish Aviation that we are willing to consider letting them carry out a few of the aerodrome services on an agency basis, and they will also be free to enter into commercial arrangements with operators for the repair of aircraft. The details involved are still under discussion and my Department has had a representative at Prestwick since the beginning of January in order to discuss these matters.

The idea of a Scottish Utility Corporation to run Prestwick is one which was put forward long ago. It is said that such a corporation could pay its way, and in support of that statement I have seen a scale of landing fees. Those fees are, in my opinion, very high indeed, and I think would have the effect of driving traffic away. In any case, the method of assessing such landing fees will be agreed on an international basis, and a Scottish corporation would not, therefore, be able to increase its revenue to any material extent.

I consider that the creation of a Scottish corporation would be a backward step. Aerodromes ought to serve the nation as a whole and not local interests. If a separate corporation were formed for Prestwick, similar demands would come from other places inevitably, and the whole of the Government policy for the nationalization of transport aerodromes would break down. There is no fear whatever of local needs at Prestwick being overlooked, because the intention is to administer aerodromes on a regional basis, which will ensure that my Department is fully kept in touch with local interests.

Careful investigations which have been made show that such a Scottish corporation would have to be very heavily subsidised in view of the heavy cost of running a big aerodrome with hard runways. If the State is to meet such deficiencies, it must have control over the expenditure. Again, the aerodrome's position, which is an extremely complicated one, will of necessity be fluid for a considerable number of years yet, and very close co-ordination between various Government Departments will be necessary to ensure that the interests of the various Service Departments, agriculture, roads, and so on, are reconciled. Again, the building programme has got to be very carefully phased in view of the labour shortages, and this co-ordination can obviously only be done by a Government Department. Again, the radio and meteorological services have to be provided by the State. If you formed a separate corporation for Prestwick it would have to recruit various technical advisers, and it would therefore duplicate many of the functions of the Ministry of Aviation and would prove much more costly than direct administration by my Department. Such are some of the hard facts to which I have referred and some of the good reasons why the appeal made for a separate corporation has to be rejected.

Something has been said today about the merits and demerits of Prestwick. The weather there is good. I regret to hear that on one occasion a V.I.P. made three attempts to get in and was unable to do so, but I agree that that is exceptional and that the weather at Prestwick is good. Prestwick is peculiarly suitable as a bad weather alternative for Heath Row because the records show that there is very little chance of the two places being blacked out at the same time. Prestwick is well equipped with radio aids also.

As regards runways, there are two. The main runway, 2,200 yards, is fairly good, but the subsidiary runway of 1,500 yards is of little use. It is undulating, it is badly constructed and the approaches are bad. That subsidiary runway is no longer used by B.O.A.C., although it can still be used by small aircraft. It is contended that only two runways at Prestwick are necessary in order to give almost 100 per cent. regularity. Well, there are differences of opinion about this, but it can be said that with two runways—that is, the existing main runway plus a new subsidiary runway—a very high degree of regularity could be maintained. A three runway system is out of the question because of the constructional difficulties which are involved. There is only one possible line for a new second runway, and unfortunately it passes across the fringe of a new housing estate in the vicinity of Heathfield Aerodrome, where the drains and some of the roads have already been constructed.

Compensation would be demanded if the housing estate had to be abandoned or modified, and the Council would also want an alternative site, which is difficult to find. But again that is a matter which is being gone into, and a meeting to consider it is being held on the site this week between all the parties concerned. The main runway at Prestwick could be extended in either an easterly or westerly direction, but again there are formidable difficulties. Extension westerly would involve the tunnelling or diversion of the main road, and if extended beyond 700 yards it would involve the tunnelling or the diversion of the railway.

I think it will be seen from these facts that there are many difficult and complicated matters to consider in these arguments about Prestwick, and matters which really cannot be solved by appeals to national sentiment. Care, however, is being taken and a detailed works survey is, being carried out by my Department immediately, so that the various schemes proposed for Prestwick can be assessed and accurate estimates of costs prepared. But I warn your Lordships that a new second runway will undoubtedly be very expensive as it involves the cutting of a mineral railway and a considerable amount of levelling.

VISCOUNT SWINTON

Could you give any estimate of the Cost?

LORD WINSTER

I regret I cannot. That is one of the objects of the survey and investigations which are being carried out, in order that we may get reliable statistics in these matters. But the construction of a second runway would demand consideration of the value received for the money which would be expended; and traffic conditions and the degree of regularity' which would be obtained would all have to come into the picture. Now about the transatlantic services, a question which involves also consideration of the aerodrome at Rineanna—the Shannon airport. To fly from Heath Row to New York via Rineanna is nine miles longer and via Prestwick ninety-eight miles longer than flying direct. It is argued, however, that although the great circle distance is eighty-nine miles longer than via Rineanna, the head winds on the westerly crossing are less severe in a northerly direction and this compensates for the extra distance.

I think there is some evidence for this, but records would have to be taken over a very long time and related to various altitudes before definite conclusions could be drawn. But even if it is found that that argument is correct, Rineanna still has the advantage of being the mast westerly point, and the stage from Rineanna to Gander or Prestwick to Gander is the governing one as regards payload in transatlantic operations. It has been stated that we favoured Rineanna by running shuttle services there. B.O.A.C. did, of course, run a shuttle service to Rineanna to connect with the flying boats at Foyne, but the R.A.F. have also run a service between London and Prestwick to connect with transatlantic services, and plans are at this moment in hand to run a civil service between London and Prestwick when that R.A.F. service is withdrawn.

Scottish aviation contends that if we made Prestwick attractive, and advertised it sufficiently, American services would use it to a large extent, particularly on the route to the countries of Northern Europe. But operators have to carry passengers to where the passengers wish to go; that is the essential thing to remember in this question of air operations. You cannot take the passengers to somewhere you wish them to go, and where they do not wish to go; you must take the passengers to where they wish to go. I have no power to tell American operators which of the designated aerodromes they shall use; all I can do is to see that proper facilities are available if the American operators wish to use Prestwick, and that I will do.

Now about the comparison with Heath Row. It is said we are spending £25,000,000 on Heath Row, and are unwilling to spend anything on Prestwick. I will always give careful consideration to the needs of Prestwick, but the need for a transatlantic terminus near London is obvious. The two sites are, of course, not comparable. As already stated, Prestwick can never have anything but two runways, whereas at the carefully selected site of Heath Row, we have plenty of room and are planning nine, three of which can be used simultaneously. Nevertheless, let me again make it clear that I have more than once categorically stated that Prestwick will be designated permanently as an international airport, open to all international air services which choose to use it. The United States schedule of routes agreed upon at the recent conference at Bermuda includes calls at Prestwick. Further than that, plans have been made for British international services to be operated via Prestwick in accordance with traffic requirements. Certain B.O.A.C. services will operate via Prestwick, even after Heath Row is in use. I will give very careful consideration to the development of Prestwick in the light of traffic demands. In other words, we are committed to the use of Prestwick in the long-term as well as in the short-term future.

On a review of all the facts which have been brought to my notice—and I know of no subject which has occupied more of my time since I have been at the Ministry than these questions connected with aviation in Scotland—I confidently believe there will be sufficient air traffic to justify the provision of an international airport in Scotland. Certainly there is no site other than Prestwick available in relation to the populous southern Scottish cities. The development of Prestwick, if there is scope for such development, is obviously more economical than new construction. I wish to stress a very important point, and that is that I have to find out if the existing runways are adequate to bear Constellations and Boeing 377s. I have this under investigation at the moment as a matter of urgency. If the answer is that they are adequate, then immediate extension is not necessary, since we know what the projected types, British and American, are which will be able to use Prestwick for the next few years.

Much misconception has arisen over the decline in activity at Prestwick. The dense traffic during the war was all military traffic and was due to the strategic situation of Prestwick as well as to its good weather record. That that is the main cause of the decline in activity at Prestwick is a matter which is often overlooked. That is why the activity has lessened, and not because of any hostility or prejudice towards Prestwick on the part of the Ministry of Civil Aviation. I must stress one other point very briefly. When one is considering developments at Prestwick, it is necessary to have regard to the labour situation. There are other aerodromes in Scotland which also require development, and new sites must be developed in the Highlands and in the Islands.

As regards the proposals for a separate Corporation to operate Scottish air lines, it is desirable that Scottish air lines should be operated within the British European Corporation for many reasons, of which I will only quote one or two. Pilots and aircraft are interchangeable, and by operating from a common pool the size of the pool is reduced. You get one main maintenance and overhaul organization, and a common system of training, all of which reduces overheads. By having one operating organization instead of two, you certainly achieve a reduction in fixed overheads. Then Scotland is bound to have a number of un-remunerative services—the geographical features which have been referred to in this debate show that—which it is necessary, or at least desirable, to operate in the public interest, and deficiencies on those services must be spread over as many remunerative services as possible. That is another very potent argument why one corporation instead of two is necessary.

Although I have had to make certain points and advance certain arguments against what has been proposed in the Motion, nevertheless the Government have always been anxious that Scotland should take its part in the operation of air services. I have, therefore, been giving consideration to the possibility of forming a Scottish Airways Division as part of the proposed British-European Airways Corporation. Such a Division would make provision for local management to meet the special circumstances of services of interest to Scotland, and, while forming part of the main Corporation, would at the same time ensure that there was the most economic use of aircraft and other resources so that the services would be operated in the most economical manner. Do let me stress this point. In the years which lie immediately ahead, when we shall have, through no fault of our own, to face very severe American competition, one of our main hopes of standing up to that competition lies in the efficient and economic operation of our airlines. That must be the paramount consideration.

In order to ensure that such a Division as I have mentioned will be an effective component of the Corporation, and that the needs of Scotland are properly interpreted, I am also considering that a Scottish Advisory Committee should be set, up to advise the European Corporation. I have been looking through my papers in preparation for this debate, and I find tint last September 1 minuted in the following words: "Scotland must have a fair deal. We wish to give Scotland the same good service that we intend to give the rest of the United Kingdom. We must work on the assumption that the industrial area of Scotland will attract international traffic."

Those were the words of my minute last September, and in view of those words, written at a time when the problems in connexion with aviation in Scotland were first coming to my notice, I think that there is a clear indication that far from there being any prejudice in my mind, of the kind indicated in the noble Earl's speech, it has, from the first, been my endeavour to meet the needs of Scotland, in harmony with the general policy of the. Government, as expressed by my right honourable friend the Lord President of the Council in the debate on civil aviation in another place quite recently.

I think that, in these remarks, I have answered most of the questions which have been put by noble Lords who have taken part in the debate. If I have omitted to deal with any, I hope that my attention will be called to them. I am always most anxious to answer points which are put to me. The noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, I noticed, expressed a certain amount of sympathy for the terms of the Motion, and lie, very naturally, referred to certain proposals for Scotland made by himself when he held my office. I have not got those proposals before me at this moment, but I do not recollect that his "practical and fair" proposals for Scotland included two Corporations such as it is the object of the Motion to establish.

VISCOUNT SWINTON

I sincerely hope that the noble Lord will read those proposals. Undoubtedly it was the intention that Scottish air services were to be run by Scottish interests. They are being so run today and that would continue if the Government did not change things. Two Corporations are run by Scotsmen and it was our intention to maintain that arrangement. Scotland was to have the chance of everything running out of Prestwick, and certain services to Scandinavia, including Denmark, were to be reserved for Scottish companies. A tribunal was to be set up to which anybody could go. The noble Lord has said that my proposals did not offer a square deal. He admitted that he had not read them, or, perhaps, I should say, that he had not refreshed his memory with them. May I now tell him what the proposals were and leave them to the judgment of the Scottish Peers?

LORD WINSTER

I will also leave something to the judgment of the House. I did not say that the noble Viscount's proposals did not provide for giving a fair deal to Scotland. I said that I had not got those proposals in front of me at the present moment. It is absurd to say that I have not read them or that I am not acquainted with them. But I said that, to the best of my recollection, they did not include the setting up of two such Corporations as is proposed in the Motion. Those were my words. The noble Viscount has attributed language and words to me which I most certainly did not use.

Now as regards what he said about a tribunal. He proposed the establishment of a tribunal to whom an operator could apply for the right to run an air service or air services, and he said that our proposals will not include anything of that nature. That, quite naturally, is so because the policy of the Government is that scheduled air services shall be run under a system of public ownership. Therefore, it would be the height of folly to set up a tribunal to which people might go to apply for the right to controvert the declared policy of the Government. What we are going to do is to set up a tribunal to which the public will have access in order to make their complaints if what they regard as necessary services are not established or if existing services do not, in their opinion, meet the public need. A tribunal of that sort is to be established so that the public will have the right to make their complaints.

THE EARL OF GLASGOW

Will the noble Lord consider having Scottish representation in the Ministry in London to safeguard the interests of Scotland?

VISCOUNT SWINTON

Before the noble Lord leaves the subject of the tribunal may I say this? In my speech, as he will see when he reads the report of it, I asked him what the rights of this tribunal will be. Will the Minister be bound, by its decisions?

LORD WINSTER

The nature of the tribunal, its powers and its machinery will all be defined in the Air Transport Bill which is to be presented to Parliament. As regards the question put by the noble Earl, I have told your Lordships of the proposals that I have under consideration for making sure that Scottish needs and interests are represented, and I really think that they adequately cover the point which he has raised.

THE EARL OF GLASGOW

Representation in the Scottish Division do you mean?

LORD WINSTER

And on an advisory committee. I think what I have said about those proposals amply covers the noble Earl's point. Lord Balfour of Inchrye asked: "What is meant by designation?" No doubt it has slipped his memory, but he must have been very familiar with the term. Under the Two Freedoms Agreement, a Government has the right to designate the airports in its territory which shall be used for second freedom purposes. Lord Sempill put to me what I am bound to say appeared to me a very extraordinary question. He spoke of a gentleman by name and he asked me if I am prepared to put him on the board of a Corporation which is not yet formed, and which there is no intention of forming under the Government policy. I do not wish to set myself up as a judge in these matters, but I think it will make debates in your Lordships' House very difficult if advocacy of a gentleman's claims to a position is to be made in this way, the gentleman's name being given. Of course, I could not possibly deal with a question of that sort.

LORD SEMPILL

May I tell the noble Lord that I wished to discover if a pioneer in aviation who is a member of another place was eligible for such a position, paid or unpaid.

LORD WINSTER

I wish the question had been put in that way. But advocacy was made of a certain gentleman's qualities in regard to aviation, and I was asked if that specific gentleman would be eligible for a position on the Corporation. As regards the general question, I may say that Members of Parliament are not eligible.

LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE

Members of the House of Commons.

LORD WINSTER

I am sorry. Yes, of course, I should have said Members of the House of Commons. They are not eligible for seats on these Corporations. Well, my Lords, on this St. Valentine's Day I think that we have had a very pleasant debate. Very contentious subjects have been in issue, about which, I know, feelings very properly run very strongly indeed, but on the whole I would say that the little birds in their nests have agreed fairly well to-day. The noble Earl's Motion will have accomplished a good purpose if this debate has served, as I hope it may have, to dispel misunderstandings. We shall get on quicker in meeting the aviation needs of Scotland if we lay aside, once and for all, the suspicions and animosities which I was so sorry to find played a certain part in the noble Earl's speech. I say let us go forward in a sensible broad-minded way with mutual understanding and common sense. We shall get on better that way.

LORD SALTOUN

My Lords, for the information of your Lordships, I should like to say that what the noble Lord has said about the Scottish Division is exactly what I hoped.

7.21 p.m.

THE EARL OF GLASGOW

My Lords, I have to thank the noble Lord for his courteous reply and I have to assure him that although my speech sounded rather in the way he described just now, there was really no animosity about it at all. The noble Lord also took me to task for not being factual., but I had to put the point of view of the whole of the nation of Scotland to him and it is not so much a point of view as a sentiment which is animating the people of Scotland to-day. I will not make a long speech in reply, but with regard to the development of Prestwick, I think if we had been permitted to, we could well have developed Prestwick ourselves. The noble Lord knows quite well than. I have nothing to do with the aviation company. I am speaking entirely as a Scotsman looking at this from the outside but I have seen the plan for the development of Prestwick and I am quite sure the money could be found for the development of the airport. If Scotland had control I think we could overcome these difficulties.

The noble Lord spoke about the shuttle service from Ireland to Prestwick. Why should Prestwick airport be designated now? Why should it not have been designated six months before the Irish got their chance? What a chance for Scotland if only we had a treaty with America which got our planes to Prestwick without having to go to Rineanna. It is rather hard luck on us that this treaty has been made between Ireland and America and that they got the line there. If the Government—if I may say so with respect—had been awake, surely we should have had Prestwick designated long ago, so that these aircraft would have had to go to Prestwick instead of Rineanna.

LORD WINSTER

If American operators had indicated that they wished to schedule their routes through Prestwick the facilities would have been given them but the American operators go to the Civil Aeronautics Board and get their licences for the route they wish to operate.

THE EARL OF GLASGOW

Surely that is the explanation. We were so slow in getting off the mark. We all know that American airmen prefer Prestwick to any other airport in this country.

LORD WINSTER

I cannot compel the American operators to come to Prestwick unless they wish to do so and had they expressed the wish to do so they would have been able to go to Prestwick.

EARL OF GLASGOW

I ant quite sure that we shall appreciate what the noble Lord said with regard to the various arrangements he has got in mind. I am not quite sure about the Divisional Board. Is it for operating Scottish Air Services?

LORD WINSTER

I think it is rather late for me to repeat my speech. May I suggest that the noble Earl looks at my remarks in Hansard to-morrow? However, what I said was that I was giving consideration to the possibility of farming a Scottish Airways Division as part of the proposed European Air Corporation.

EARL OF GLASGOW

My Lords, I have nothing more to say, and I ask leave of the House to withdraw my Motion for Papers.

Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.