§ VISCOUNT SWINTONMy Lords, I beg to ask the Minister for Civil Aviation the following question, of which I have given him private notice, Whether he can make a statement on the Agreements reached at Bermuda between His Majesty's Government and the Government of the United States on Civil Aviation.
§ THE MINISTER OF CIVIL AVIATION (LORD WINSTER)My Lords, the Agreements just concluded between the United States and this country at Bermuda represent an achievement satisfactory to both countries. The desire of the United States on the one hand, to avoid regulation which might be construed as restrictive of exploiting the potentialities of air transport to the full, and the desire of the United Kingdom on the other hand, to ensure that international air services are developed on an orderly basis which will eliminate wasteful competition and uneconomic subsidies, have been reconciled. The United States Government have agreed that all fares on air services of mutual interest to the two countries should form the subject of agreement, and this they propose to achieve in two stages. First, they have agreed to recognize for a period of one year the status of the International Air Transport Association, an international organization representative of operators, as a rate-fixing body acting through their various route conferences. They have also undertaken to seek legislation from Congress which will empower the Civil Aeronautics Board to control rates. This is, in itself, a considerable advance on the position which confronted us before the Bermuda Conference began.
As regards the control of capacity operated on the routes, it has been recognized that pre-determination on the basis 368 of estimated traffic potentials is beset with practical difficulties and instead, it has been agreed that the principle for which we stand—namely, the maintenance of a close relationship between capacity operated on the various routes of mutual interest and traffic offering—can best be put into practical effect by providing for an ex post facto review on the basis of this principle. Machinery for close and continuing collaboration between the two Governments will be established to this end.
Turning to the controversial issue of the Fifth Freedom, I cannot do better than quote the text of the Agreement on this subject. It reads as follows:—
It is the understanding of both Governments that services provided by a designated air carrier under the Agreement and its Annex shall retain as their primary objective the provision of capacity adequate to the traffic demands between the country of which such air carrier is a national and the country of ultimate destination of the traffic. The right to embark or disembark on such services international traffic destined for and coming from third countries at a point or points on the routes specified in the Annex to the Agreement shall be applied in accordance with the general principles of orderly development to which both Governments subscribe and shall be subject to the general principle that capacity should be related:In addition to the Air Transport Agreement, the Heads of an Agreement relating to the use of the Leased Bases for civil purposes has been initialled ad referendum. The Bases to which I refer are those in the Western Hemisphere which were leased to the United States for military purposes under the Bases Agreement of 1941. The particular Bases which have formed the subject of these discussions are those in Colonial territories, and Heads of Agreement contain a clause which makes it clear that they are subject to preparation of a formal contract and to certain questions being resolved before any Agreement to use the Bases for civil purposes can become effective. The final text of the documents as signed and initialled is not yet available in this country. As soon as the final text 369 of the Agreement is available, it will be published as a White Paper.
- (a) to traffic requirements between the country of origin and the countries of destination;
- (b) to the requirements of through airline operation, and
- (c) to the traffic requirements of the areas through which the airline passes after taking account of local and regional services.
In the Agreements neither side has, of course, obtained recognition of every point of its policy, but the results have achieved the main objectives of both countries. As I am sure that the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, will agree, no agreement which does not confer benefits on both parties can stand the test of time. Let me say, however, that I cordially welcome the Agreements which go so far to resolve many points about which this country and the United States were previously in disagreement. I wish to express my appreciation of the fact that the United States delegation met our proposals in a good spirit of sincerely seeking to effect accommodation. We, on our part, were actuated by the same spirit and we shall work the Agreements in that spirit and not only in the letter. I must also take this opportunity of informing your Lordships that the British Delegation, led by Sir Henry Self and Sir William Hildred, upheld the British case stoutly and argued it firmly and deserve warm commendation for their labours.
§ VISCOUNT SWINTONMy Lords, the House will be glad that the Minister has taken the first possible opportunity of giving a summary of these Agreements to Parliament. Obviously, these Agreements are of very far-reaching importance, and I am sure he would not expect me, either in a personal capacity, and still less in a representative one, to commit myself until I have had an opportunity of considering them fully. I appreciate that as soon as the texts of the Agreements come to hand—I presume the Minister has not yet the texts in his possession—they will be published in a White Paper. We will certainly desire to have an opportunity—and I am sure it will be agreed to by the Leader of the House—of debating this matter.
I would only ask the Minister to elaborate two points, neither of which he really touched upon, but which seem to me to be of very great importance. In the first place, I would ask him whether or not these particular Agreements, directly and immediately, affect Commonwealth routes. They must affect them indirectly, and all these questions of the Fifth Freedom, as the Minister knows, have been the subject of the very closest 370 and most intimate consultation between us and the Dominions and India throughout their long history. Anything which we do must, of course, have a considerable repercussion, first of all, within the British Commonwealth, and, secondly, with other nations. I would like him to tell us what consultations he has had in the course of these negotiations with the Dominions and India.
The second point is that in any agreement for giving effect to principles like the definition of the Fifth Freedom, traffic—I seem to recognise certain of the elements of that definition—and the reasonableness of fares, and so on, it is very important that, following agreement, we should have some tribunal by which we shall all be bound. Could the Minister say, in the event of disagreement on either the construction of the Agreements or their application, whether there is such an authority which we would accept, and they would accept, as binding on us?
§ LORD SHERWOODMy Lords, before the noble Lord replies I would like to ask him one question. He said it was going to be referred to Congress. Has he any knowledge of the time when it will be referred to Congress?
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§ LORD WINSTERMy Lords, on the first point in respect of Commonwealth interests, due regard has been given to that point. There has been the closest consultation with my colleagues who are affected by those matters. I can assure the noble Viscount that Commonwealth interests have been safeguarded.
§ VISCOUNT SWINTONAnd that there has been consultation?
§ LORD WINSTERI have said I have worked in the closest consultation with my colleagues who are affected by these matters. Throughout the negotiations they have been consulted with regard to Commonwealth interests. With regard to the second point, on the provision for machinery in connexion with the fixing of fares, the United States have agreed to accept the I.A.T.A. machinery for one year, and when the text of the Agreement is published in the White Paper the noble Viscount will find that the most careful machinery has been set up.
§ VISCOUNT SWINTONI appreciate the position with regard to fares, because the noble Lord referred to the proposed legislation in Congress to give effect to it. I was more particularly concerned with the interpretation of the agreement for the Fifth Freedom and whether, if there should be a dispute on either the meaning or the application of that—he will fully appreciate this point, which was a great point of discussion between us—there is to be some international authority, or whatever else it is, which will have power to decide between two parties who honestly cannot come to an agreement but neither of whom should be a judge in his own cause.
§ LORD WINSTERThe noble Viscount will find in the White Paper that there are full provisions for consultation on disputed points arising out of the Fifth Freedom and other matters. With regard to what the noble Lord, Lord Sherwood, said with reference to Congress, my statement was that the United States delegation have undertaken to ask Congress to pass legislation which will enable the Civil Aeronautics Board to take the necessary steps with operators. It is not a question of referring the matter to Congress. It is an undertaking by the United States delegation that steps will be taken to ask Congress to pass that legislation.
§ LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYEWould the noble Lord be so good as to help me in this connexion? In the definition of the "Fifth Freedom," are you taking the Mother Country and the Colonial Empire as a single unit? And, if so, would that protect the traffic between ourselves and, let us say, west or east Africa, or would American aircraft be free to come over here, pick up British passengers, and take them to one of our Colonies?
§ LORD WINSTERThe matter is governed by the provisions of that article which I read out.
§ VISCOUNT SWINTONI am sorry to pursue this, but this is really a vital point. There was a very great deal of discussion at Chicago over the words "home land". The whole question was over that. In respect of what I might call British territory, territory over which we exercise and have the right to exercise cabotage, exactly as the United States have the right to exercise cabotage 372 over the whole of the United States, does it include the British Colonies or merely this country? Throughout every negotiation we have strongly maintained—and it goes to many things beyond the question of air; and under the Chicago Agreement it is so defined—that British territory includes the possessions, that is, the Colonies and Protectorates of this country. It is a perfectly simple question, if I may say so. In this Agreement, and for the purposes of this Agreement, does the "United Kingdom" or "British territories" include the Colonies and Protectorates?
§ THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DOMINION AFFAIRS (VISCOUNT ADDISON)Might I interpose for one moment? I think when the noble Lord sees the White Paper he will be satisfied with regard to the point which he has raised. However, perhaps I might appeal to noble Lords to consider this question, that we can discuss these matters with much greater advantage when we have the Paper before us. I can assure noble Lords that there will be no longer delay than is necessary.
§ LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYEThere is a Motion on the Paper for February 28. Can the noble Lord give an indication if it will be available by then?
§ VISCOUNT ADDISONThat is a fortnight's time. I should certainly think so.