Lords Sitting of 10 December 1946

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers.
  ROYAL MARINES BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and to be printed.
  ST. ANDREWS LINKS ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1936), deemed to have been read 2a and to have been reported from the Committee.

  AIR NAVIGATION BILL [H.L.]
  THE MINISTER OF CIVIL AVIATION (LORD NATHAN): My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to provide for giving effect to a Convention on international Civil Aviation signed at Chicago on the 7th day of December, 1944, and to make further provision for the regulation of air navigation; to provide for giving effect to certain provisions of an Interim Agreement on international civil aviation so signed; and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a first time.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(Lord Nathan.)
  On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

  EXPIRING LAWS CONTINUANCE BILL.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD NATHAN: My Lords, I scarcely think that your Lordships will either wish or expect that I should detain you with this Bill, the purpose of which is simply the continuation of certain measures either in whole or in part whose titles are contained in the Schedule, and which would otherwise expire at the end of the present year, or, in one case, at the end of March
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  next. While, naturally, I shall be happy to answer any questions your Lordships may wish to put to me, I believe the continuance of these measures is wholly non-controversial. I move formally that this Bill be read a second time.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Nathan.)
  On Question, Bill read 2a, and Committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

  UNEMPLOYMENT AND FAMILY ALLOWANCES (NORTHERN IRELAND AGREEMENT) BILL.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD NATHAN: My Lords, I rise to move that this Bill be read a second time. It is a Bill to give effect to an agreement between the Treasury and the Minister of Finance for Northern Ireland. It has to be ratified or confirmed both by this Parliament and by the Parliament of Northern Ireland, and when so confirmed it will come into effect as from April 1 last. It is one of a series of enactments covering a series of agreements, known as reinsurance agreements, between Great Britain and the Government of Northern Ireland, and it relates to adjustments in regard to unemployment and family allowances. It will be necessary to have a comprehensive Bill at a later stage confirming the later agreements when the various social security Acts or Bills of this Parliament become effective in 1948, so that this Bill should be regarded as an interim measure for the purposes of making these adjustments. Parliament has given assent to a series of similar adjustments in Bills since 1926. I beg to move.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Nathan.)
  On Question, Bill read 2a, and Committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

  MINISTRY OF DEFENCE BILL
  2.39 p.m.
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
  Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Viscount Addison.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.
  House in Committee accordingly:
  [The EARL OF DROGHEDA in the Chair.]
  Clause 1 [Appointment and functions of Minister of Defence]:
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: I want to put to the Leader of the House for consideration, but not for immediate answer to-day, a point arising on the drafting of Clause 1 of the Bill. I am a little worried at the words "as a whole" which are inserted in the last line but one of the clause. I think there is absolutely no difference of opinion between us in any quarter of the House as to the general purpose of this Bill. We want to give the Minister of Defence a general power over the formulation and co-ordination of all defence policy. We do not want him to do the detailed work of any of the Service Departments, and, as I understand it, these words were inserted in order to make it plain that he would not be a detailed executive Minister in respect of individual Departments.
  I venture to suggest—and I have received some advice upon this—that if you leave in the words" as a whole" they might be held to limit the Minister's powers too much, and that he could deal only with matters which refer to all the three armed Services of the Crown. A matter which affected one Service only, or was the policy of one Service only, might have a very direct bearing on defence generally; and when you come to the formulation of policy or its general application it may well be that there are many problems which concern two Services but which do not concern three Services. I do not want to revive old controversies which I hope are dead and buried, but I remember one that I had for three years with the Admiralty as to whether the Admiralty should take control of all the aircraft and of all the airfields for every aircraft that could fly in any conceivable circumstances over the sea. That was a controversy between the Air Force and the Admiralty, but it called into question a most vital matter affecting the general defence policy. That ancient controversy, please God, will never be revived. There may be, however, in the future many matters coming up which affect two Services but not the third, and I venture to suggest that we ought to have in this clause the right words relating to the Minister's powers. I suggest that they should be something like this: "the formulation and
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  general application of defence policy so far as it relates to the Armed Forces of the Crown and their requirements." I do not ask for an answer now, I was only able to give the Leader of the House notice of this a few minutes ago, but I think he will agree with me that it is well worth while to look at these words in order to make quite sure that we have words that give the Minister the full powers we want him to have.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DOMINION AFFAIRS (VISCOUNT ADDISON): I am obliged to the noble Viscount for this valuable criticism. In his opening remarks he described the powers of the Minister of Defence correctly, and I am in accord with his description. The words "as a whole" were inserted in order to indicate, as the noble Viscount forecast, that the business of the Minister of Defence was not the detailed work connected with the administration of individual Services. I confess it had not occurred to me that they might conceivably have a limiting effect, as he suggested. I assure him that there is nothing of the kind in our desire, and we are completely at one with him. Perhaps the noble Viscount will be satisfied if I consult our legal advisers and have the matter looked into before it comes up again.
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: I am much obliged to the noble Viscount.
  Clause 1 agreed to.
  Remaining clauses agreed to.
  Bill reported without amendment.

  HOLIDAY AND TOURIST SERVICES.
  2.43 p.m.
  LORD HACKINGhad given Notice that he would call the attention of His Majesty's Government to the efforts now being made to attract tourists to the United Kingdom; ask whether the Government are yet in a position to announce full particulars of their new organization to deal with tourism, home holidays and catering; and move for Papers.
  The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion which stands in my name on the Order Paper. The last time that I introduced the subject of tourism into your Lordships' House was on February 19 of this year—ten months

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  ago. I then spoke of the value of tourists from two points of view—firstly, as a means of contribution to the future peace of the world, and, secondly, as an invisible export capable of providing for this country no less than £100,000,000 a year on international account. Ten months ago I asked the noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, who was then replying in your Lordships' House for the Board of Trade, what was the Government's long-term policy regarding tourism, that is to say, on whom would be placed the permanent responsibility for building up and maintaining this very important export. Lord Pakenham, replying, was exceedingly generous in praise of the work of the existing organization—namely, the Travel Association, and he was also complimentary to myself as Chairman of that Association. I suppose the noble Lord felt that after such a eulogy, I could not possibly complain however unsatisfactory his answer might be. I am bound to say that owing to his flattery, coupled with his well-known diplomacy and skill in debate, he succeeded in giving to your Lordships very little information as to the Government's plans for the future. I am sorry that the noble Lord is not in his place to-day. I had the courtesy to send him a note to say that I was going to mention his reply. But, as he was replying on behalf of the Government, perhaps the Government will receive this odium and not the noble Lord himself.
  I want to make three quotations from what the noble Lord said in his reply. He spoke about the Government's desire to help and in column 731 of Hansard for February 19 he is reported as saying this in reference to me:
  "But he can be assured that the Government, to put it quite simply, is at least as keen as he is (and that is, I know, very keen) on promoting visits to our shores."
  Then, in reference to the Catering Wages Commission's Report—and it will be remembered that the Chairman of that Commission and the man really responsible for the Report was Sir Hartley Shawcross, the present Attorney-General—Lord Pakenham said:
  "the appearance of this Report marks, in our view, an epoch in the history of the catering and tourist trade in this country. We attach enormous significance to this Report."
  Your Lordships will note the expression "enormous significance." Lord Pakenham went on to say:
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  "It is, at the moment, being studied by a Departmental group of officials who are working intensively upon it,"—
  I would like those words to be underlined—
  "and I feel sure it will not be very long—I cannot mention a date; the noble Lord has experience in these matters—before we are in a position when we can speak much more frankly and fully as to what the Government's practical proposals in that field will be."
  That quotation is taken from columns 732 and 733 of Hansard for February 19.
  Finally, in column 734, the noble Lord, who was speaking in respect of the suggested investigation of the Licensing Laws and also in regard to improvements in hotels being disregarded when hotels are reassessed for rates and taxes, is reported as saying:
  "I will say straight away that the two specific points he mentions, as well as all the other points which arise—and as he knows there are a great many arising from the Catering Commission's Report—are being investigated at top speed by the group of officials to which I have already refetrred."
  I hope that the noble Lord will be asked to refer to those parts of the speech which he delivered in this House ten months ago. Now, I just want to emphasize these words: "enormous significance," "working intensively," "not be very long," and, finally, "investigated at top speed." I would like to ask the noble Viscount, Lord Hall, who, I understand, is going to reply to this debate to-day, whether there has, in fact, been any inquiry, any investigation at all, either at top or at second speed, into the existing laws or into the assessment of hotels for the purpose of rates and taxes. I doubt it. But if there has, may we know this afternoon the results of such investigation? Can the noble Viscount who is going to reply honestly reconcile those promises which were made ten months ago with any performance on the part of the Government?
  I think that, possibly, it is fortunate that Lord Pakenham is no longer responsible for answering on behalf of the Board of Trade in this House. I hope that I may be pardoned for believing that the Government really had sufficient information at their disposal ten months ago to enable them then to settle the big question as to the future organization to deal with this vital industry of tourism. For, let it be remembered, at least two long and detailed inquiries had been already held.

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  Apparently, there was still more data which the Government wanted, and, after a delay of a further five and a half months after the last debate, another investigation—again I suppose at top speed—was ordered. The noble Lord, Lord Inman, was appointed as the Government adviser on the future of tourism, home holidays and hotels, and he was invited to make still another Report. I am not complaining about that appointment. Far from it. From what I have seen of it the noble Lord, Lord Inman's inquiry has been most searching, thorough, prompt and exceedingly business-like. He has taken great pains to discover exactly what the Travel Association was doing, by visiting, personally, our headquarters more than once, and examining and re-examining members of our staff. Finally, my Board of Management were privileged to wait upon the noble Lord, at his invitation, and we were allowed to state our case fully and completely. I am bound to admit that the noble Lord exercised the greatest possible patience in the face of stringent and prolonged argument.
  I pay this compliment to the noble Lord, Lord Inman, the more freely because he is not in his place this afternoon. The noble Lord sent me a note to say that he was sorry he could not be here. I do not know why he is sorry; I think he ought to be glad. It is I who ought to be sorry that I am in my place. But I pay him this compliment quite deliberately. Noble Lords on this side of the House may wonder why I am praising at such length a supporter of His Majesty's Government. It may seem especially strange, as I do not know what the noble Lord may have said about me or my Association in his Report. Seriously, I hope the expression to which I have just given voice may be considered as just one further indication that tourism is something far removed from Party politics or Party manoeuvre. I am sure that we all desire to advance the two great principles for which tourism stands—namely, greater friendship amongst nations, and greater prosperity at home.
  May I now ask the noble Viscount a few questions? I understand that the Report of the noble Lord, Lord Inman, has been in the hands of the Government for some weeks. Will the noble Viscount tell us the date upon which it was received?
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  May I ask him, too, whether the Report will be published and, if so, when? May I further ask the Government, just once more, when they will be able to state their decision in respect of a permanent organization to deal with tourism, home holidays, catering and hotels? In reply to a question asked in another place, the Government have already indicated that any new organization to be set up would be non-Governmental in character. I believe that to be a step in the right direction, and if the Government can announce their final decision today, will they further say whether legislation will be necessary and, if so, what possible delay would be entailed by such legislation. I ask—I beg—the noble Viscount to say that there should be as little further delay as is humanly possible in setting up the permanent organization.
  The present uncertainty is far from satisfactory. The Travel Association has been officially appointed by the Government to continue its work of publicizing Great Britain overseas only until such time as some future plan is settled. On the one hand, if the Association is to be appointed permanently, as a definite unit, to undertake the tasks which it is at present performing in a temporary capacity, then we ought to be so informed as quickly as possible. As we are now, we do not know whether we are to be idolized or led to the slaughter; and I am sure that noble Lords in this House would not like to be placed in that position; if, in fact, they are not so placed at the present time. To carry out our work properly and effectively we are undertaking all sorts of commitments which will be a financial charge on someone for years to come. I refer, for example, to the opening of information centres in London and in other large cities, both at home and overseas. There have also been film commitments, and even printing and publishing contracts, which have to be settled many months before the actual distribution takes place. I must also mention the question of a pensions scheme for our staff, a scheme which is of great importance to them. All these matters, and many others, are both urgent and important, and decisions must be taken on them almost at once. At present, we do not know where we stand. These commitments will go on after we have left, or after we are appointed to continue, and

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  we ought to know now what is to happen to them.
  Assuming that the Government do intend to make a change in the set-up of the present tourist organization, then again, we ought to know our fate without any further delay. If, for some mysterious reason which I do not understand, this is not yet possible, then I do press the noble Viscount to say now, during this debate, that the Government, or any future board which may be established hereafter, will accept and take over those obligations which I have mentioned, and possibly many others, which have been entered into in good faith by the Travel Association as part of its legitimate work. I repeat that by force of circumstances—and, incidentally, by good management—we are compelled to enter into commitments and to spend money now from which there will be little or no return until, certainly, next year, and possibly some years after. We are entitled to know that we are financially secured in our commitments for the future.
  We are grateful to His Majesty's Government for placing in our hands, for purposes of investment (for that is what it amounts to) far larger sums than any Government have ever given before—even though, of course, those sums do not go quite so far as they used to do, owing to rising costs. Our total income for this financial year will probably amount to about £175,000, of which the Government will have provided approximately £100,000—the balance being collected from other sources. I would suggest to the Government that their share of the total, which is insufficient for our work to be carried out really efficiently and effectively all over the world, is a pretty sound investment, especially when it is estimated that in 1947 about 250,000 overseas visitors will come here and, in so doing, enrich the country to the tune of at least £25,000,000. That is, an expenditure of £100,000 by the Government should enrich the country to the tune of £25,000,000—a good investment. I am sure that the Chancellor of the Exchequer must wish that all his other expenditure yielded so good a return. If it did, he might be paying us Income Tax, instead of it being the other way round.
  Your Lordships may be interested in three recent developments in the existing organization—and it will be realized that
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  the question of the existing organization does form part of my Motion. The first I would mention is that we are seeking to enlist the influence and support of individual citizens who, by becoming citizen associates at a small nominal subscription and receiving certain of our publications, agree to extend friendly welcome to the overseas visitor and to assist him in any way possible. This will, I hope, help to get our people more tourist-minded, and I am sure your Lordships will agree that that is very necessary.
  The second new development is a poster campaign for young people. Youth organizations, students of art schools, and pupils at day and boarding schools will be given the opportunity of preparing designs and of presenting their country to the world in the form of artistic "Come to Britain" posters. The Royal Society of Arts has agreed to judge the competition. Members of the Travel Association have provided very generous prizes. The Association will distribute the winning posters throughout the world. I pay tribute to the association of girls' clubs and mixed clubs who were largely responsible for the idea and who are working with us in this scheme. I am certain that youth will be proud to play its part in the great work of encouraging world travel, and, consequently, of creating better understanding and more friendliness between the people, especially the young people, of different nations.
  A third interesting development has just taken place. Two months ago the Travel Association organized an international conference of national tourist organizations. It was held in London. Delegates were present from forty different countries, and two other countries were represented by observers. All sorts of resolutions were discussed and voted upon. The conference was mainly concerned with the increased freedom of world travel, how, in fact, the restrictions and regulations which now make international travel a difficult and irksome business, could best be removed. The remarkable thing about this large conference was that practically every resolution was passed unanimously—a good example of how international conferences should be run.
  I wish I could tell your Lordships more about the practical work carried out by the existing organizations, but my time is limited. I should like to tell your

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  Lordships, for example, how we are dealing with 5,000,000 pieces of literature now in preparation for distribution to the world's travel agencies. That is only one item of our activities. As I say, to describe in detail the other numerous activities would take far longer than the time I have at my disposal this afternoon. But I would invite any members of your Lordships' House who are specially interested to visit our administrative headquarters at 6, Arlington Street, or the new Information Centre at 66, Whitcomb Street, which, although not yet officially opened, is I am sure sufficiently advanced to create a favourable impression upon your Lordships' minds.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer has spoken recently and frequently of the vital necessity of procuring more dollar exchange. A few days ago he said that the central problem facing this country was our shortage of dollars, and yesterday, in another place, the Chancellor of the Exchequer again indicated how necessary it was for us to receive more dollars in this country. What an opportunity presents itself here in the development of our tourist industry! The majority of visitors in the years immediately in front of us will undoubtedly come from the hard currency countries, and I beg the Chancellor of the Exchequer to remember that every penny, or perhaps I should say every dollar, that a visitor from overseas spends here is net profit to the country. In this industry no cost of import of raw material has to be offset against the export value of the finished article, as is the case with manufactured goods. The invisible export of tourism, in the main, sells service, and, even if we can only procure £25,000,000 from our visitors during 1947, that means that the country will be better off by exactly that amount.
  Let me just add this. When we are in a fit condition at home to accommodate larger numbers—and I hope that the Government will continue to do all they can to see that we are at the earliest possible moment in a fit condition to receive more people—and when, in consequence, we are able to build up this invisible export to a total of £100,000,000, of which a large proportion will assuredly come from Americans in the form of dollars, where will the American loan stand? The £35,000,000 a year, which will be due from us in payment of interest and sinking fund on the
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  American loan, will be more than paid for in advance, generally speaking, by the American visitors themselves. What a happy and encouraging thought that the Americans, in their desire to visit us, may of their own volition actually be repaying their own loan!
  There is, one request that I would make of the noble Viscount, Lord Hall. I wonder whether he would be good enough to restate the functions of the Tourist. Catering and Holiday Services Division of the Board of Trade. I ask this in view of possible misunderstanding that may have arisen owing to certain newspaper reports. I only wish to ensure full and complete co-operation and no overlapping between the Division and the Travel Association. I gave the noble Viscount notice that I was going to ask him this question, and I hope that he may be able to reply. In passing, I should like to commend the Minister in charge of the Division, and the Division of the Board of Trade itself, upon the interesting and helpful answer given by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Export Promotion Department of the Board of Trade, if that is still his title, as to which I am not quite certain. I should like to commend his answer which dealt with the equipment priority scheme for the hotel industry, especially those hotels which encourage tourists. If that scheme is put into operation with force I believe it will help very much to encourage hotel-keepers to take a bigger interest in tourists.
  I hope that I have said enough to convince your Lordships that a great deal is at present being done by the existing organization to further and advance the important invisible export of tourism. A lot more remains to be done, for up to now we have really only scratched the surface. The Government must—and I believe they will, now that they are fully seized of the importance of this industry—contribute much more, in general encouragement, such as the derequisitioning of hotels and other accommodation, the re-equipping of accommodation, and in other ways, and also give much more financial support to any central organization which is responsible for this export. I have played some part in the creation and in the building up of the existing organization, which now possesses an enthusiastic and most capable staff, but I can assure your Lordships that the past means little to me. I want to state—and

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  am sure it will be accepted—that my one and only desire is to see this tourist industry, with all its many ramifications, flourish in the days to come.
  Having said that, I beg the Government, in reaching their conclusions regarding the future, to hesitate before unduly curtailing the Association's present freedom and rapidity of action, to pause before clamping down its imagination, its flair and its enthusiasm. I beg the Government not to weaken the present authority possessed by the Association, and above all—and I think this is vitally important—to see that there is still maintained within the framework of any new scheme that excellent and happy relationship between the Travel Association and its many supporters, whether the supporters be individuals, companies, associates, local authorities or other public or semi-public bodies, for these are the component parts which in combination with the Association advance its national objectives by placing at our disposal great practical experience, sound advice and, moreover, a considerable measure of financial support. If by any action on the part of the Government these knowledgeable, practical and experienced people cease to take an interest in the machine which at present binds them together, then I am convinced that the country will fail to reap the full benefit which can accrue to them by the serious and orderly development of a great industry.
  Subject to that warning, which I trust will be construed in a perfectly friendly way, my own personal desire is to assist in any way I can and most certainly not to hinder or obstruct the Government in their plan for reorganization. I am sometimes suspected of having been a Conservative. I will not deny that there may be some element of truth in that suspicion, but I repeat with all sincerity that this industry of tourism does not lend itself to Party conflict or Party wrangling; it is, or should be, a great national endeavour in which members of all Parties can combine in wisdom and experience in order to achieve the maximum results. I apologize to your Lordships for having spoken at such length. There was a lot which I wanted to say, and I fear there is still a lot which I have left unsaid. I do, however, share with your Lordships the one hope and the one expectation that after to-day I may remain completely
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  silent on this subject for very many months to come. I beg to move for Papers.
  3.13 p.m.
  VISCOUNT MERSEY: My Lords, I am sure noble Lords in every part of this House will be grateful to the noble Lord who has just sat down for the great work and enthusiasm which he has given over a number of years to this interest of his and, indeed, of everybody in the country. I hope that his efforts will be crowned with the success that he desires. I confess that, listening to his own account of what the Government have done for him, it did not seem to me that there was a great deal to complain of; I thought that on the whole the Government had been fairly generous to him. No doubt his detailed questions and criticisms are worthy of consideration, and on those points I do not attempt to speak. There are, however, one or two points which I would like to bring to the attention of the noble Viscount who is to reply.
  I do hope that more attention will be paid to attracting Dominion, Colonial and American visitors to this country than to trying to draw Europeans here. At the present moment, as your Lordships know, we are not likely to get many Europeans visiting this country as tourists. A good many of them would not be very welcome, and a good many of them have not got very much money. What we want are the people who are welcome, the people who have got sufficient funds to spend in this country, and the people who share a common interest and a common language with those who live in England. I am quite sure that the average American, the average South African, the average Australian and the average Canadian finds much more of interest in this country than does, say, the Spaniard, the Italian or the Russian. We shall no doubt be very glad to see many of these Continentals, but there are great difficulties at present, and there always have been, in attracting them to this country. We have not got the same way of life; very few of our hotel-keepers, for instance, talk Spanish, which is most important, and we do not cook in the way to which they are accustomed. It will take us a long time to learn to do so.
  I agree that a good deal more could be done by establishing abroad in the capital cities small offices such as used

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  to be maintained in Paris before the war. Many of your Lordships will remember the name of Mr. Henry Noble Hall who I think represented the British Council at that time.
  LORD HACKING: The Travel Association.
  VISCOUNT MERSEY: The Travel Association. One could go there and be given brochures telling one where to go, what hotels to stay at, and what the cost would be. A good deal more of that sort of thing ought to be provided abroad for this country, so that a man who thinks of coming over here could go in his own home town, in Marseilles or wherever it was, and ask: "How much will it cost me? How shall I get there? What are the places I am likely to be interested in?" I do not think we do enough of that. I have no doubt that we do something in the Dominion capitals, but I do not think we do nearly enough on the continent of Europe. Particularly, I suggest that this should be done in the large ports of disembarkation for visitors coming from overseas, Havre, Bordeaux, Genoa and Naples. I think we ought to have some sort of English officers there who would tell Americans or visitors from the Dominions how to get to the places they want to see in England. We ought also to pay more attention to the South American continent, which has such an enormous amount of capital in it. People there are becoming very travel-minded and they buy very expensive articles. I happen to be interested in books. I can assure your Lordships that thirty years ago an Argentinian or a Brazilian never bought a book at all in this country. Now they are among the principal buyers of some of the most rare and expensive books. That is only one particular item. If we could devote ourselves to attracting and entertaining the South American, the Dominion, the Colonial and the North American visitors, I think we should find that by so doing we derived the quickest return.
  It is quite clear that at the present time, with a great proportion of the people of this country needing houses, we cannot expect the Government to give priority to the building of expensive hotels, or even of good hotels which are not expensive, which is even more difficult to do, in order to supply the continental
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  visitors with the sort of accommodation and food to which they are accustomed. I think that if we were content with a short-term rather than a long-term policy we should get better results. I believe the Government have this whole question in mind. It was suggested to me that the answering of this question was remitted to the noble Viscount the First Lord of the Admiralty because the Government were all at sea about it; but I am ready to take a more optimistic view, for I believe it was because he was a very distinguished Secretary of State for the Colonies a short time ago.
  I trust that one small matter will be in the minds of the Government and of the Travel Association. I read in the Press yesterday that a number of complaints were being received by quite an important body (I think it was the Automobile Association) of the lack of courtesy on the part of hotel keepers in this country. Of course, hotels are very full and it is not easy to get accommodation at short notice; but there are two ways of telling an intending visitor that no accommodation is available. It would be a great pity if any idea got about that in this matter we were discourteous. It has been my lot in life to live abroad a great deal. I should think I have spent ten years on the continent of Europe. I have lived in a great many hotels and I can only remember one occasion on which I met with discourtesy on the part of a hotel keeper. That was in Bosnia, in a far-off and little known place, and I dare say the complaint may not have had any very great force behind it. The Government are fortunate in having such an enthusiastic protagonist as the noble Lord, Lord Hacking, who suggested he was not so much a Conservative as he was once thought to be. In these matters I think we want someone who is very liberal and who looks forward to what can be done. I hope the Government will be able to meet his detailed criticisms in the manner most beneficial to the industry.
  3.22 p.m.
  THE DUKE OF RUTLAND: My Lords, this is the first time I have addressed your Lordships' House and I would, therefore, ask you to extend to me the indulgence always shown to a beginner. I decided to speak this afternoon in order to bring before your Lordships some idea of the sort of difficulty which the hotel

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  trade is facing to-day. I would like to stress that although this is a personal matter I am only bringing it forward as an example. I am the owner of a sixteenth century hotel in Derbyshire, in the Peak District, and I have been trying to put this hotel into working order so as to attract foreign visitors to the country. Before the war the hotel did a lot of trade with visitors from abroad.
  On July 10 of this year I applied for a licence to modernize the hotel—to make it habitable and completely up-to-date. On August 15 I was informed that a licence was refused. I then got in touch with the Travel Association and after a few weeks the Travel Association managed to persuade the Board of Trade to send down a Ministry of Works official to look into the matter. On October 23 an official came down and went over the hotel with the local Medical Officer of Health, and the licence for which I had applied was there and then granted. The licence having been granted, I got everything ready to start the work on the hotel when suddenly, on December 5—over a month after the licence had been granted—I received a letter, on the direct instructions of the Minister of Works, saying that owing to the shortage of labour and materials the licence was withdrawn.
  That is an incredible state of affairs. The whole negotiation has taken over five months. The licence was refused, granted and then withdrawn one month after it was granted. I might have been sued for breach of contract because in the period between the granting of the licence and its withdrawal I had given verbal orders for the work to be started. The Government are supposed to be great planners, but if they are, why did not the Minister of Works know on October 23 that there was not sufficient labour and materials to enable the work on this hotel to be carried out? This sort of thing is going on throughout the whole of the hotel and catering industry, and I feel that until we get rid of this muddle and inefficiency which is caused by excessive Government control we cannot expect the hotel industry to put its house in order and attract foreign visitors. If this is an example of what is happening all over the country as regards hotels, then no wonder the foreign visitors who come over here are extremely uncomfortable. I would ask the noble Viscount who is to reply to do all he can to help the hotel trade
  726
  to get these licences and to put its house in order. Let us modernize the hotels and give foreign visitors decent service and decent accommodation. If we do that, we can expect them to come again next year, but otherwise they will go elsewhere.
  3.28 p.m.
  LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, I owe your Lordships an apology for intervening in this debate, not having been present during the whole of the speech of my noble friend Lord Hacking. I was, however, aware of the remarks he intended to make to your Lordships. I know your Lordships will be more ready to forgive me for not having been here all the time when I take upon myself the pleasant duty of welcoming my noble friend the Duke of Rutland to our debates and of congratulating him on the forceful, penetrating and very definite way in which he put his points. I know your Lordships will look forward to hearing an equally positive, definite and, we trust, reassuring reply from the noble Viscount who is to speak for the Government.
  I think this drive to attract visitors to Britain can be termed an All-Party effort to assist our export drive, because the war has depleted our income from overseas investments and here is a way of earning foreign currency. Every visitor who comes to this country from the U.S.A., for instance, is a net gain to this country in dollars. Therefore I hope that the noble Viscount will be able to tell us that the previous attitude of past Governments and past Chancellors (which has been in effect that when the Treasury has made a grant it has, as it were, written it off), will be no longer maintained and that the Government will say that if the Treasury makes a grant of £100,000,000, or whatever sum is necessary and agreed upon, it will look upon it as a capital investment, for it may well earn many times its capital value in visitors coming to this country.
  It seems to me that in approaching this problem we want to get one thing clear in our minds, and that is what sort of life we are going to offer foreign visitors when they come here. We must make up our minds whether we are going to offer them the sort of standard of life that the citizens of this country cannot enjoy, and give them the standard of luxury which naturally they would welcome, or whether

  727
  we are going to say to them "We will do all we can for you but we will not run a dual standard of life in this country." That seems to me to be the fundamental problem in this connexion. My own view is that it would be a mistake from many angles to try to run an entirely dual standard of life in this country. I believe that we should tell visitors when they come here that we will do all we can for them and rather more than we do for ourselves, but at the same time we will not set up an artificial standard which is alien to this country at the present time. Having said that, I believe there is much the Government can do, within the boundaries of our own standards of life in this country, to attract visitors. The noble Lord, Lord Hacking, and other noble Lords who have spoken to-day, have made certain suggestions as to what could be done in those particular directions.
  I agree with the noble Viscount, Lord Mersey, when he said that we cannot expect priorities to be given for building great new hotels when our people are still wanting homes. On the other hand, do not let us take that too far. Do not let us deny to the hotel industry a very reasonable measure of help to which they are entitled at the present time, and which would cost really nothing in the housing effort as regards depriving other people of houses—help which, if granted, would certainly enable many hotels to open which are at the present time closed. Could not the Government speed up the derequisitioning of hotels and other accommodation throughout the country at a much greater pace than they have been doing hitherto? One also hopes that they will be more generous in the compensation to those who have been dispossessed, In order to allow them to re-equip.
  The President of the Board of Trade, in another place, has foreshadowed a new organization and has said that it is to be free from Governmental control. If the Board is set up, may we hope that it really is going to be composed of business people, non-Governmental in its attitude and non-Governmental in its administration, and that it will not be the commencement, or nucleus, as it were, of a new sub-department of Civil Service administration with unnecessary authorities, unnecessary files and unnecessary "Passed to you, please, for action in due course." Let it be an organization of
  728
  business people who know their job, who are given a certain amount of money and assistance by the Government and allowed freedom to get on with the job.
  There is just one other point which I would like to put to the noble Viscount and to which I think the Government will agree—and that is that the tourist trade cannot be a one-way business. A nation which itself does not travel abroad cannot expect to attract visitors to its own country. Therefore, while we welcome the information given in the debate in another place on the Exchange Control Bill, in particular in relation to tourists from this country, we do hope that the £75 travel allowance is going to be increased in due course. The restrictions which at present surround anyone venturing to take a journey abroad, the number of papers one has to sign and the number of certificates one has to give, really engender so much fatigue as to make the journey scarcely worth while. Could we not cut away the red tape which surrounds people leaving this country, and which surrounds people coming into this country? The Treasury, by delegation under the Bill, will be able to relax restrictions, and I hope that tourism on a two-way basis is going to loom very large in the minds of the Chancellor and the Treasury officials when they come to administer the Bill, which, if all the delegated powers given to the Treasury under that Bill are used, could indeed drop an iron curtain on this country and prevent anybody from coming in or going out.
  The Motion we have been discussing has an important bearing upon the tourist traffic. I conclude by saying that we approach this problem in a non-Party spirit, but it is the Government of the day who are responsible for seeing that action is taken. Here is a golden opportunity for the Government to please not only their own supporters but supporters of all political Parties and of none, in seeing that we have a brighter Britain, easier for people to come into, easier for people to get out of, and a Britain which is far more able to smile than unfortunately at the present time we seem able to do.
  3.36 p.m.
  LORD DARWEN: My Lords, although a very young member of your Lordships' House, perhaps you will allow me to echo appreciation of the speech made by the noble Duke, the Duke of Rutland, and to

  729
  welcome his joining in our debates. I want to echo the words of the noble Lord, Lord Hacking, who opened this debate, about the tremendous importance of international travel towards deepening and increasing the understanding between nations. I want to suggest a line which has not yet been mentioned in this debate, and that is the importance of international travel for working people. International travel was increasing very considerably before the war under the Workers' Travel Association, and to some extent under the Youth Hostels Association. The Youth Hostels Association is making very big plans now for a tremendous development in international travel, and there are also many other workers' organizations which have been engaged in that work and are planning to develop it a very great deal. Holidays with pay have now made that a good deal easier. Travel abroad has always been more reasonable, I think, for people going from this country than for people coming into this country. A friend of mine recently went on a £25 Travel Scholarship. He went to Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Finland on £25. That is a pretty big tour for that amount.
  In this country there is a very great shortage of accommodation at a price the workers can pay. I have myself been running a guest house since 1911. We began by charging 18s. a week and we have now got up to three guineas a week, so I know that it is possible to do it. I think facilities for that kind of accommodation could and should be very much increased. We, in this little guest house, have been very much overcrowded during the last few years, and from the way the bookings are coming in it looks as if we will be very much overcrowded for the next year or two, at any rate. There is definitely a shortage of that kind of accommodation, and I hope that this new Government organization will do its utmost to increase the facilities for working travellers coming to this country. There is also a need for the consideration of the difficulties arising from lack of equipment. There are places I know where they have been obliged to refuse guests, not because they have not beds but because they have not sheets. The laundries take so long in dealing with sheets that beds have actually been kept empty because sheets were not available. That is one of the small things which is making difficulties in this very very im-
  730
  portent industry. I believe that this organization which has been set up by the Government is going to do a very big job of work. I would just like to say that I do hope that facilities for workers to travel abroad will be helped in every possible way.
  3.40 p.m.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (VISCOUNT HALL): My Lords, I greatly appreciate the manner of the approach to this interesting and important matter by the noble Lord who opened the debate. No one can disagree with him as to the importance of it, or that its importance far transcends Party policies or Party manœuvres. I trust that the proposals of His Majesty's Government will be considered in this light, for that is the wish of the Government. I should like the noble Lord, Lord Hacking, to know how much His Majesty's Government appreciate the services rendered by him to the tourist movement, a movement with which he has been very closely associated for so many years. Indeed, it can be said that the inception of the Travel Association in 1929, when he was Secretary to the then Department of Overseas Trade, was largely due to his efforts. Since that time he has rendered very good service both to the Travel Association, about which he said so much this afternoon, and to the United Kingdom by the work he has done.
  I trust that, although he may feel some regret for the effect on the Association of the merging of the tourist activities into a wider national association—which I hope to announce in the course of my remarks—there will be no reluctance on his part to extend to the new organization the good will, the friendliness, and the ready assistance which he has so generously given to the Travel Association for such a long time. I thought the noble Lord was unduly critical of my noble friend Lord Pakenham and, indeed, somewhat critical of the Government in not announcing its long-term policy before this date. It will be fully appreciated that money has not been the hindrance to receiving large numbers of people into this country since the cessation of hostilities. There has been the difficult question of transport during the period of demobilization, the question of accommodation in this country, and, last but not least, there has been the very great difficulty of the scarcity of food.

  731
  I also thought the noble Lord was just a little critical in his reference to not receiving assurances that there would be some changes for the hotels in the Licensing Laws, and in their assessment and rating situation. I am sure he will know, as one who has had a very long experience of public life, that you cannot give preferential treatment to any body such as the Hotels' Association without giving very serious consideration to the matter, and that you cannot single out an industry of this kind without causing very many anomalies among other industries. All I can say to him concerning this matter is that I have no doubt that, if the existing laws are a hindrance to the provision of the necessary accommodation for bringing visitors from overseas, the authorities responsible for this industry will take these matters into consideration.
  LORD HACKING: I am loath to interrupt the noble Viscount. I said I knew of the difficulties in changing the law. What I was objecting to was the statement made by the noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, when he said these things would be investigated at top speed. I thought "top speed" meant something a little bit quicker than ten months.
  VISCOUNT HALL: It is all a question of degree and the preoccupation of those charged with the responsibility of examining the position. Whilst it may be a very long time in the minds of the critics on the Opposition side, it is a very short time taking into account the vast number of problems with which any Government would be faced during the first year or two of the post-war period after a six years war. His Majesty's Government fully agree as to the importance of the tourist industry to the nation. In 1938 it was estimated that tourists spent no less than £38,000,000 in this country, and, as the noble Lords have already mentioned in their speeches, it is believed by those competent to judge that this figure might well be very largely increased in the near future. I do hope, with the noble Lord, Lord Hacking, that these figures are not too optimistic. In any case, this potential increase of invisible exports would be a very welcome addition to the great effort which is now being made to balance our Trade Budget. In addition to this trade advantage, there is, as the noble Lord who preceded me rightly said,
  732
  the great value of foreign visitors coming to this country, not only to see the beauties of our land and its historic places, but also to meet our people and to get an understanding of the British character and way of life and our British institutions, of all of which we are rightly proud. This understanding should be mutually valuable to ourselves and to visitors from all parts of the world.
  We must ensure, as was rightly pointed out by the noble Duke, the Duke of Rutland, that such visitors are provided with suitable accommodation in up-to-date hotels. May I join with the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, in congratulating the noble Duke upon that very forthright speech which he delivered here this afternoon. I have not any information about the case to which he referred, but I will make inquiries into the matter. I promise him that after doing so I will write to him as to any result which might be achieved, and I trust successfully, as a result of his intervention in the debate. We must ensure that such visitors are provided with suitable accommodation in up-to-date hotels which will provide them with reasonable amenities, otherwise unfavourable comparison might well be made with conditions which they might well enjoy in hotels in other countries.
  I was rather surprised that in the course of all the speeches to-day, with the exception of the speech made by the noble Lord who preceded me, so little was said about holidays for our own people in our own country. Any organization which is set up, and which will be set up, to deal with tourists and holidays certainly must take this factor into serious consideration. Noble Lords will fully appreciate the tremendous increase which has taken place in this country recently in the matter of holidays with pay. I asked the Ministry of Labour to give me the figures and I must say that I was greatly surprised when I learnt from the return which I received that about 10,000,000 industrial workpeople, who are covered by industrial agreements made under collective bargaining and Statutory Orders, are now receiving, many of them for the first time in their lives, holidays with pay. In addition to that number there are about 10,000,000 shop assistants and about 3,000,000 or 4,000,000 other individuals, mainly clerks, not covered by collective agreements or Statutory Orders. That

  733
  means, that in all, in this country something like 15,000,000 persons, plus their dependents will now be able to enjoy a holiday with the breadwinner receiving his pay for the period of his holiday. That is a departure which I know is very warmly welcomed by the industrial worker.
  I spent many years of my life in industry, and from the time I commenced work in industry until I came out of it and began what was, in effect, a non-productive job, never was I in a position to enjoy a holiday free from the worrying thought of losing a day's pay, a week's pay or a fortnight's pay. Noble Lords will realize that here is a great departure—something quite new which is going to mean a great deal to the catering industry in this country. Any organization which is set up by the Government to deal with this matter will have to take into consideration this question of holidays with pay. The introduction of this system has considerably increased the demand for facilities for home holidays. I am definitely of the opinion that most of those holidays should be spent away from the drab towns and industrial villages in which the majority of these industrial workers live.
  It will be seen that, as I have said, all this will mean a very large extension of the facilities for holiday making in this country. These demands were rightly visualized by the Coalition Government, who passed the Catering Wages Act in 1943. Under Section 2 (1) (b) of that Act, the Commission were given authority to make such inquiries as they might think fit, or as might be directed by the Minister of Labour and National Service, into the needs for meeting the requirements of the public, including, in particular, the requirements of visitors from overseas, and also for developing the tourist traffic. In pursuance of these powers, the Commission, after inquiry, furnished two Reports, one in November, 1944, and the other in September of last year. These Reports dealt with the rehabilitation of the catering industry and the development of the catering, holiday and tourist services. The second of these Reports also dealt with the long-term arrangements for developing the services in question, and the Commission's proposals formed the basis of consideration by the Government of plans for dealing with these problems. I think it was the noble Vis-
  734
  count, Lord Mersey, who dealt, and rightly dealt, with the difficulties that arise in connexion with bringing people from the Continent. I understand that he thinks that we should concentrate more on the Dominions and Colonies and America—including of course both North America and South America. We entirely agree with the noble Viscount—not that we would, in any way, put any obstacle in the way of visitors from any part of the world coming into this country. They will all be very helpful.
  Reference has been made by Lord Hacking to Government Departments. A number of Government Departments have responsibility for different aspects of this problem, while certain functions devolve upon the Catering Wages Commission. Special central machinery was necessary if the problems relating to the functioning and development of the tourist, catering and holiday services were to be tackled resolutely and efficiently. Noble Lords will remember that the Prime Minister announced in the House of Commons on June 7 last that His Majesty's Government had decided to place with one Department—namely, the Board of Trade—the responsibility for co-ordinating Government action in this field. As a further measure of co-ordination, an Inter-Departmental Committee, representing the Departments mainly concerned, was set up under the Chairmanship of the Secretary for Overseas Trade. In July he announced that the Government had decided to bring into being a non-Government organization to foster and develop the trades referred to, and that before reaching any conclusions as to its structure, discussions with the interests directly concerned would be undertaken.
  I would like to assure the noble Lord, Lord Hacking, that the need for those discussions was one of the causes of the delay. He has rightly said that the noble Lord, Lord Inman, to whom I shall refer later, has held lengthy conversations with representatives of the Travel Association.
  LORD HACKING: I said so and I paid tribute to Lord Inman.
  VISCOUNT HALL: Yes. But it was not only with the Travel Association that the noble Lord, Lord Inman, had to hold conversations. It was necessary, having had these conversations, that some time should be devoted to acquiring a full

  735
  understanding of the difficulties and problems with which these organizations are confronted. As noble Lords will be aware, in early August it was announced that Lord Inman had accepted the invitation of the Secretary for Overseas Trade to be his principal adviser in the establishment of this new organization. On behalf of His Majesty's Government, I wish to join with the noble Lord in paying a warm tribute to the very valuable services rendered by Lord Inman and to the energy and ability which he has devoted to the task entrusted to him. Not only has he made contact with a great number of the interests concerned in the industries, but he has also conducted his discussions in such a manner that we confidently hope for the co-operation and support of those interests for the new organization. He worked with the utmost speed. He has made recommendations which His Majesty's Government are able to accept and His Majesty's Government will proceed forthwith to their full implementation.
  The noble Lord asked me when this Report was received by His Majesty's Government. The Minister received the Report on October 31. The noble Lord also asked whether the Report was going to be published. In answer to this, I should explain to your Lordships that this Report was a personal report to the responsible Minister by the personal adviser of the Minister, and it is therefore felt that it would not be appropriate to publish it. As a result of the recommendations of the Report it has been decided to set up, early in 1947, in the form of an unincorporated body, a Tourist, Catering and Holiday Board, consisting of twelve members, together with a Chairman and a chief administrative officer. The names of the Chairman and the members of the Board will be announced as soon as possible, and I can give the noble Lord an assurance that those persons who are actively engaged in the industry will not be overlooked when the Board is being set up. It is intended to include on the Board representatives of the industries concerned—the tourist, catering, home holiday and hotel services—as well as representatives of Scotland and Wales, the Trades Union Congress, the Co-operative Movement, and representatives of the wider national and consumer interests.
  736
  Apart from the Chairman, and the chief administrative officer, the members of the Board will not receive salaries. They will be appointed for a period of two years by His Majesty's Government, and after that time one third will retire annually and will be eligible for reappointment. The executive functions of the organization will be carried out by four main divisions, dealing respectively with tourist, catering, holiday and hotel services. Each division will be supported by a committee which will be appointed by the Board, and which will be representative of the appropriate service and of consumer interests. The position of the existing Travel Association of Great Britain and Northern Ireland calls for special attention.
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: Before the noble Viscount passes to that, would he say if the establishment and functioning of that new body will require special legislation, or under what powers it is to be established?
  VISCOUNT HALL: If the noble Viscount will allow me, I am coming to that. It is essential that the existing Travel Association should play an important part in the new organization, under the general authority of the new Board. It is important to maintain continuity, and, indeed, to preserve the valuable experience which the Travel Association has accumulated and the good will which it has increasingly built up with the interests concerned. I hope that the details can be worked out in friendly discussion, with the object of maintaining the support which the Association increasingly enjoys. All the industries covered by the Board are, or may reasonably expect to be, prosperous; that is our wish and our hope. Therefore, there is every reason why they should bear the major part of the cost of the new organization, the success of which will benefit them all. At the same time, His Majesty's Government recognize that financial assistance from the Exchequer will be necessary in the early stages, and they are considering what form this can best take.
  In his opening speech, the noble Lord asked whether, if there is to be a change in the organization, the Travel Association could know that obligations entered into in good faith will be taken over by the new body. I want to assure the noble Lord that commitments already entered

  737
  into with the approval of the Board of Trade, will, of course, be honoured. The noble Lord also asked—and the question was repeated—whether legislation will be necessary in the setting up of this new Board. Legislation will not be necessary, and there should be no delay in its setting-up.
  The noble Lord's speech related not only to the long-term problems but to the efforts now being made to attract tourists to the United Kingdom. Of course, His Majesty's Government are closely concerned with these efforts. The Tourist, Catering and Holiday Services Division of the Board of Trade, which was set up to fulfil the Board's responsibility for co-ordinated action, is working with other Departments, so that all the necessary steps on the part of His Majesty's Government are taken in good time for the forthcoming holiday season. Apart from assisting in setting up the new organization, the functions of the Division are specifically directed to preparations for the attraction of tourists to this country next year, and the increase of facilities for home holidays during the same period. I was asked whether the facilities or restrictions which now apply to persons entering or leaving the country could be removed. I am pleased to say that an announcement was made recently, for the information of the shipping companies, travel agencies and so on, that British Passport Control Officers, and, in certain cases, His Majesty's Consular Officers, have been authorized to grant visas to tourists from any country, except to former enemy nationals, who desire to visit the United Kingdom.
  I would like to point out to your Lordships that there is still a limit to the number of foreign visitors who can be provided with transport, but it is believed that the number will be sufficient materially to assist our foreign exchange position. That number has been calculated on existing information, and careful consideration has been given to the arrangements that can be made for the supply of equipment to certain classes of hotels, boarding houses, holiday camps and similar establishments, which would be able to cater not only for foreign visitors but for those at home who need to enjoy a period of recuperative leisure after their strenuous efforts during and since the war. In this connexion, I would draw the
  738
  attention of any persons who are interested in this matter to the reply given to a question put to the Secretary to the Department of Overseas Trade in another place on December 5.
  Reference has been made to the de-requisitioning of hotels, and to reconstruction work on hotels, which are almost as important for the attraction of foreign visitors. The action of His Majesty's Government in these difficult matters was stated recently in another place, but it would be as well if I repeat the figures which were then given by the Minister. He stated that 86 per cent. of the hotels, boarding houses and restaurants held on requisition on January 1, 1945, had been released by the end of September last, the number held being reduced from 4,190 to 558. Rapid progress is being made in releasing the remainder. The rate of release has been at an average of about two hundred per month during 1946. This rate must, of course, decline as the total number of holdings is reduced. Hotels are given a considerable priority of release, every Department realizing the importance to the economic life of the country of this type of accommodation. It is expected that the number of such premises held on April 1 next will not greatly exceed 300. In addition, Regional Licensing Officers of the Ministry of Works, in common with Regional Officers of the Ministry of Food, the Board of Trade and other Departments concerned, have been instructed to give urgent and sympathetic consideration to all projects, whether they relate to derequisitioned establishments or not, which will benefit tourists and holiday services, paying particular attention to schemes in areas most likely to attract overseas visitors.
  I trust that I have given your Lordships sufficient information to indicate that His Majesty's Government are fully seized of the urgency of these problems, and I desire to take this opportunity of appealing to all concerned in the tourist, catering and holiday services to give their support and co-operation to the new organization. Its creation does not represent either in form or intention any endeavour to nationalize these great services. The industries will continue to administer the services, but it is confidently believed that, by being welded into a great co-operative national effort, and by being provided with an organization which can ensure that full consideration will be given

  739
  to the innumerable inter-related problems continually arising, they will be enabled, in ever-increasing measure, to improve and expand their services to the advantage and benefit of themselves and of the nation as a whole.
  4.14 p.m.
  VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: My Lords, I do not propose to say more than one or two words on this question. I think all of us have listened with very great interest to the important and, I think on the whole, sympathetic statement that has been made by the noble Viscount who has replied for the Government. What he said with regard to holidays for our own people will, I am sure, evoke a very warm response in this House, because as your Lordships know, whatever may be thought outside, this House is an extremely human body, and we welcome anything tending to relieve the drabness of the life of the ordinary industrial worker. We also welcome the recognition by the Government of the importance of having foreign visitors—a matter which has become much more important to us now than it was before the war—and also the desirability (which is perhaps not quite so universally recognized) that they should have comfortable entertainment when they come here in order that others may be encouraged to come to this country.
  In particular, I think the announcement of the noble Viscount with regard to the granting of visas to foreign travellers from all but ex-enemy countries will receive the warmest approval from all quarters of your Lordships' House. That should tend, apart from anything else, to remove the "iron curtain" which is supposed to be beginning to separate one country from another. The noble Viscount said that tourism is one of the greatest of our invisible exports. Of course, that is absolutely true. I think that is why the noble Lord, Lord Hacking, above all other reasons, urged the importance of it to your Lordships to-day, and that is why we regret the delay that has taken place in bringing about arrangements for the greater encouragement of tourists. I know, as the noble Viscount has said, that the Government have many other matters which they have to consider; but this is not the least important of those matters with which they have to deal.
  740
  Of course, the most important passage of his speech was with regard to the new plans which His Majesty's Government are initiating for the better organization of this traffic—above all, the Tourist, Catering and Holiday Board, of which he has given your Lordships some details. He said, as I understood him, that the executive functions of this Board would be allotted to appropriate committees. Inevitably perhaps the noble Viscount was somewhat vague as to what those functions were to be. As a Conservative, at one time I was a little nervous whether the object of this Board would be to control rather than assist private effort. But the concluding passages of the noble Viscount's speech removed that anxiety. If I may make a suggestion to the Government it would be this: Would they consider the possibility of preparing a White Paper on this question, which would provide an opportunity for a rather fuller exposition of their ideas than was practicable for the noble Viscount this afternoon? I am quite certain such a White Paper would be widely welcomed, and it might lead to the Government receiving suggestions with regard to this subject which would be of value both to themselves and to the country.
  That is all I wish to say to your Lordships this afternoon. Generally speaking, we warmly welcome the statement that has been made, and I feel sure that the efforts of the Government to attract foreign tourists to this country, and to bring foreign money to this country, will receive the co-operation of all in every Party who are anxious for the prosperity of our land.
  VISCOUNT HALL: My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Viscount for his very helpful words. He has made a suggestion. He will, of course, appreciate that I cannot make any promise at all—
  VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: No.
  VISCOUNT HALL:—with regard to the publication of a White Paper. But I will certainly consider it in conjunction with the Department, and see whether it can be done.
  4.18 p.m.
  LORD HACKING: My Lords, I am indeed very grateful to the noble Viscount who has replied for the Government. I should also like to express my thanks to noble Lords who have taken part in this

  741
  debate and to other noble Lords for attending, thereby showing the considerable interest that exists in this great industry of tourism. If I may, I should like for a few moments to deal with some of the points which have been made this afternoon. First of all, with regard to the noble Viscount, he asked for my co-operation in any future organization. I hope that he already understands that that is very freely given. Of course, that will still leave me free to say what I think in connexion with any new set-up. In other words, I hope that ray co-operation will not mean that I have pledged myself to complete silence. I hope that I shall never be described as a silent man or as a "Yes" man. Subject to that, I hope that I shall be able to give any assistance for which I am asked.
  I should like to make one thing abundantly clear. In connexion with this matter of delay I am not sure whether the noble Viscount still thinks that I was in arty way criticizing the noble Lord, Lord Inman. Far from it. The noble Lord, Lord Inman, carried out his work with great expedition. What I was criticizing was the delay of five and a half months between the last debate we had in this House on this subject and the appointment of the noble Lord, Lord Inman. Lord Inman did the whole of his work in three months, whereas the Government were apparently thinking about this for five and a half months without doing anything. That was my criticism. I want to make that perfectly clear. I very much regret that there is not going to be any publication of Lord Inman's Report. I should like to repeat the request that has been made by my noble friend the Leader of the Opposition in your Lordships' House, that a White Paper might be published, which would give certain extracts from the Report of the noble Lord, Lord Inman, and provide us with the opportunity of knowing a great deal more about the new scheme than was possible for the noble Viscount to announce in his statement to-day.
  There is one matter about which I am a little uncertain, and which I think might be cleared up fairly soon, even if it cannot be cleared up immediately by the noble Viscount. That is with regard to this appointment of chief administrative officer. I would like to know who appoints the chief administrative officer. I do not think the noble Viscount, Lord
  742
  Hall, told us whether he was appointed by the Government or by the Board.
  VISCOUNT HALL: By the Minister.
  LORD HACKING: By the Minister. In other words, the Board will not have any real control over the administrative officer who has to do the day-to-day work, which certainly seems rather strange and rather unsatisfactory.
  VISCOUNT HALL: Surely the administrative officer of the Board, which is an unincorporated Board, can only be the servant of the Board and not of the Minister.
  LORD HACKING: He will be the servant of the Board but not appointed by the Board.
  VISCOUNT HALL: I am of the opinion that he will be appointed by the Minister, but I would like to check that point.
  VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: Would the Government consider making the amendment that the Board might appoint their own administrative officer?
  LORD HACKING: I desire to press that point. I think it is very important that the Board should appoint its own officers and that there should not be even that measure of control on the part of the Government. Did I understand correctly about the appointing of the individual members of the Board? The noble Viscount said that most of these members of the Board would be people who had knowledge of the various sections of the industry. I did not understand him to say who would appoint those members. Would they all be appointed by the Government on the recommendation of various sections? I do not press for an answer to that, but these are the sort of things which it is necessary to clear up and which reinforce the suggestion of having a White Paper to make things a little clearer than they are at the present moment.
  There is one other matter which is of importance to the existing organization. Speaking about financial assistance and commitments, the noble Viscount said that our present and future commitments so long as we remained as a Travel Association would have to be submitted to the Board of Trade for their approval. I hope the noble Viscount does not mean by that that the day-to-day expenditure,

  743
  or things of that kind, will have to be submitted to the Board of Trade for their approval. The position now is that we have on the Board of Management a representative of the Board of Trade, and he has the opportunity, as a member of the Board of Management, of criticizing our work on behalf of the Government. He also reports to the Board of Trade as to any decisions we may take. I hope that there will not be any closer scrutiny than that of our expenditure, because, frankly, we do not want to be held up but want to get on with our job with as little interference as possible by Government Departments or by anybody else.
  There is very little more I want to say. I would like to thank the noble Viscount for his speech. We are now in a clearer position than we have been before, and I repeat my promise to help the Government in any way that I can to make certain that this new set-up is a success. I just want to say one word in reply to the speech of the noble Viscount, Lord Mersey. He spoke of the Paris office which was so successful before the war. The Travel Association had about six offices in various parts of the world before the war, and it is only because of our financial position that we have not got more of them reopened. I am glad that the noble Viscount was satisfied with the Paris office, and I am pleased to tell him that Mr. Noble Hall, whose services he so appreciated, was servant and was not employed by any other organization. As to the matter of courtesy which the noble Viscount, Lord Mersey, mentioned, the Travel Association was responsible for starting up the Courtesy Campaign which is at present in being in London, especially on the underground and the buses. I agree that it is vital that we should be a great deal more courteous to visitors from overseas, and should make them feel that they are welcome in our midst.
  With regard to the speech of my noble friend the Duke of Rutland, I, of course, knew about his case and I am glad that he put it forward in such a forceful manner. I can vouch for the fact that his hotel is largely concentrating on visitors from overseas. That is why we would support his appeal. I was glad to hear the noble Viscount, Lord Hall, say that he hoped the appeal would succeed. I also hope that it will be successful.
  744
  Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Darwen, said that we must not confine travel to the rich people. He did not use those words exactly, but I think that is what he intended to mean. I absolutely agree that travel must not be confined to any one section or class; it must be general. If we are going to get a great friendly feeling between nations we must extend travel to every walk of life. I am glad that we are very closely associated at the Travel Association with the Workers' Travel Association which the noble Lord mentioned. The General Secretary of the Workers' Travel Association, as I think he describes himself, is a member of the Board of Management of the Travel Association. We comprise every political thought and every walk of life in our own organization, and that is why possibly we advocate it in general. I repeat that I am more than grateful to all the noble Lords in this House who have taken part in the debate for the sympathy which they have extended to me and and to my organization. In the circumstances, and in view of the probability of a White Paper being published shortly in connexion with the new scheme, I beg leave to withdraw my Motion for Papers.
  Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

  HENDON POLICE COLLEGE.
  4.28 p.m.
  VISCOUNT TRENCHARD VISCOUNT TRENCHARD rose to ask His Majesty's Government, when the Hendon Police College which was closed at the beginning of the war is going to be reopened; and to move for Papers. The noble Viscount said: My Lords, it was with some doubt that I put down this Motion that stands in my name in regard to the Police College at Hendon as the last thing I want to do is to introduce controversy into this most important question. All noble Lords who spoke in the last debate with regard to tourist travel claimed that it was no Party question. I too claim that this question of the efficiency and leadership of the police forces of this country is no Party question; it has nothing whatever to do with Party politics, in my view.
  I would like to say now to the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, who I understand is going to reply for the Government, that I am not in any way criticizing or attacking the Government, because

  745
  this college when it was set up was set up under a Coalition Government, and when it began to fail it did not fail under this Government. Therefore, I hope that the noble and learned Lord will realize that, if anything I look to this Government to put right what was allowed to slide. I repeat that it is not a Party question. What I am interested in is that the magnificent force, the Metropolitan Police Force, should be put in a position and remain in a position in which it can feel that it is up to date in the modern world, is efficiently led and able to carry out the necessary changes to its organization which may be required by the increase in the population, the increase in crime and the changing conditions of life in London.
  I remember when, many years ago, I went to the Metropolitan Police Force for a short time. I do not want to go into the past, but I found then for one thing that there was no single map of crime kept for London. There was no map of London, only a map of England. If were asked why that was I would say it was because of the leadership. I do not want to go into other things of the past, or to mention pay, which has been dealt with. We know that the standard of living and the cost of living have gone up everywhere, and it is only right that the police should get their increase.
  I hope the Government, and the noble and learned Lord in particular, will not think I am imbued with class legislation. It is not class legislation that I am going to talk about this afternoon. Although I have been accused of it, surely nobody would really believe that I favour class legislation or try to keep the leaders of any profession to one particular class. Surely the Air Force proved in the 1914–18 war, and most of all, in the 1939–45 war, and in the period between the two wars, that there was no class distinction. It was a question of choosing the right type of young man who would make the most efficient leader. There is no force in the world whose leaders are chosen more democratically than those of the Royal Air Force. But that is not the question; the question is: What is the best way to train leaders? What are officers? They are leaders. That is the important point. I hope the Government will realize the spirit in which I put my question; it is not based on any question of class.
  I feel that the Hendon Police College in the past has been misunderstood by
  746
  many. I want to begin this afternoon by saying definitely that although in the past I claimed that direct entry should be allowed into the Police College, I am not pressing that in any way to-day. I agree that they should all go through the ranks first, as in the other Services. I should like, however, to say in my own defence, that in the past only a very small percentage came in direct. I agree that they should now all go through the ranks, but I am concerned as to when the best of them should be taken to be trained at a college for positions as leaders in the years to come and for how long they should remain at that college. I remember that when I was at Scotland Yard I received as much help from the Labour Party of that day as I did from others, and I acknowledge it. I listened to suggestions from anybody, and many were most valuable. It would not, in fact, have been possible to have done some of the things that were done at Scotland Yard if I had not had the assistance of all Parties.
  What did I find when I went there in 1931? I found a wonderful force which was terrifically handicapped by not having up-to-date and efficient leaders of all ranks, a force which was tremendously handicapped by having an out-of-date organization, and not only in the technical aspects of the work. There were no maps and no statistics. There was not a statistical department in Scotland Yard except the Finger-Print Department. But they were also handicapped by their welfare arrangements. Within 400 yards of your Lordships' House I found barracks that were not fit for animals to live in. The disgraceful state of the cubicles and the barracks generally would not have been possible if the force had been properly led. There have been many Committees on this subject in the past. In the 102 years of the life of the Metropolitan Police Force there have been many recommendations for alterations of its officering arrangements but they have all been pigeon-holed. I fed that if it is to be efficient and to remain efficient the Police Service should offer ambitious young men a career comparable with careers offered by other professions and other forms of Government employment. Unless that is done you will not attract the best men to the service. The question is, therefore, how to attract them and, when you have attracted them, how to train them?
  What are leaders, and what has been called the "officer class"? They are a group of picked young men taken from any and every walk of life and given at an early age a training to fit them for the higher posts in their profession. I should like to suggest to you that the Hendon College was, in fact, a democratic institution in the best sense. Here were collected for a period of two years men from elementary schools, secondary schools, public schools, and universities. They worked, played and lived together, and this intermingling of different types was undoubtedly beneficial to all. This, I am certain, was one of the reasons for the success of the College. It will, surely, be generally agreed that in any service maximum efficiency can only be achieved by securing a sufficient inflow of the right type of men, some of whom, if properly trained in early years, will rise to controlling positions and fill them successfully. At present in the nation there are boys who have no mare than elementary education, whilst others continue to secondary schools and still others who go on to universities. In the Police Service you want all types, and it should be the aim of the Service to attract some of the very best from all of them. As I say, they will only come if they see a chance of being selected early for special training so that they can get on—or those of them who pass a stiff Selection Board.
  The purpose of the Metropolitan Police College started at Hendon in 1934 was to achieve these two objects. During the whole course of its existence the Metropolitan Police Force had failed to produce its own higher leaders, and most of the top posts had had to be filled by importations from other Services and professions. There was, I believe (although I am not qualified to speak on it), a similar state of affairs in the provinces. For many years it had been the usual practice to fill vacant county Chief Constableships by bringing in men from outside. This would obviously not have been done if the system had been sound.
  This curious situation arose from a number of causes. In the first place, in the earlier days not enough men of the best type were electing to make their careers in the Police Service, and in the second place, the training given—and that is the thing that matters, the training
  748
  given to them when they do come in, because you can train nearly anybody—failed to produce the leaders required. Another reason was that in the absence of any opportunities for accelerated advancement (and this, I beg the Government to remember, is important), the average age of Superintendents and Chief Constables was too high, and those who might have had the ability required for the yet higher ranks were already too old and too near their time of retirement to be given further promotion.
  The war has been over now for quite a long time. The police forces of this country are short of men, and crime is increasing. Recruits are not coming forward in sufficient numbers. I would like to suggest that the reason for this is that there is no Police College to which the best of the young men could be selected to go after they have done their time in the ranks and at which they could be given a longer training. At the present there is no suggestion, as far as I can see, of its being reopened, or if there has been such a suggestion, I have not heard of it. It seems a little unfortunate that the recently published Annual Report of the Commissioner of Police for the Metropolis does not even mention the Police College, which surely was one of the most important developments of the last ten years.
  Various unofficial statements have appeared which suggest that the authorities have in mind quite a different sort of college—a place where police officers with considerable service might receive short courses of training in police duties. Such a college—I cannot call it a college; such a place for promotion examinations is not what I mean, and I do not think it would achieve any of the objects which the pre-war college was designed to secure. Its existence would not attract men of the highest quality from all walks of life, and such training as it gave them would not be given at an age when training is most effective. I do hope that the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack in his reply will be able to assure me that these statements about the college are incorrect and that the plan which was approved by your Lordships' House and by another place, many years ago, will not be fundamentally altered.
  I have said that the pre-war college was successful in achieving its objects.

  749
  There were, of course, a few failures, but I am dealing now with the young men in their early twenties who went through the two years' course at Hendon; and the subsequent careers of the majority of these I would suggest is sufficient proof of the soundness of the scheme. A number of these young men are already holding the appointments of Chief Constables in counties and boroughs in this country, and I believe these positions are always advertised. Applicants put in for them, their records are examined and then they come down to a short list. Let me tell your Lordships that not very long ago the short list for a county Chief Constableship consisted of boys who had passed through Hendon College. It is curious, if this college is such a failure, that the counties and boroughs outside London should choose the boys who pass through the college. Apart from that, five of these Hendon boys have become Chief Constables, two have become Acting Chief Constables, one has become a Superintendent, one has become an Inspector General abroad and two have become Superintendents abroad. One has been made Chief Security Officer in the Colonies, and one a Superintendent of a very big dockyard abroad. Five or six have become Lieutenant-Colonels in the Army, five or six Majors, one a Group Captain in the Air Force, and others hold responsible positions in civil employment. A good many have become Sub-Divisional Inspectors in the Metropolitan Police Force.
  During the war I received a letter from a man I had never met in my life who said that some of the Metropolitan Police had gone abroad and said how wonderful they were. There is nothing new in the principles I advocate for finding and training leaders for the police service; it has been done for centuries. All the three Fighting Services recognized this during the war. They selected the bulk of their officers from the ranks at an early age, passed them through O.C.T.Us and other similar training establishments. By so doing, they discovered the best and continued their training at the right period of their lives. The average age for entry to a college Should be in the early twenties, but I should like to qualify that for the purpose of this debate. At the outbreak of war a large number of young police officers joined the Fighting Forces. A high proportion of these proved them-
  750
  selves first-class leaders in war. They are now back to their peace-time occupation in the police force and are, of course, a good deal older than the age at which I ordinarily recommend students to be admitted to a long college course. I hope, therefore, that though they have had no opportunities while serving in the Armed Forces but have given fine service to the country during this war, they will be taken on until the war generation is used up. These men should obviously be given a chance of entry to any co11ege.
  I saw in the Press quite recently a statement made by the Home Secretary when addressing the Police Federation of England and Wales. He said he intended to see that there would be no special recruiting for a short cut to an "officer class" I feel I must have misunderstood what he meant by this, and I am rather at a loss. I would ask the noble and learned Lord to amplify this remark, because some of the police may also have misunderstood what he meant. I feel certain that the Home Secretary could not mean that he was only going to take men for this college after they had done eight to fifteen years' service on the streets and promote them according to their seniority, that is to say, from the date of joining the force. In that way you will always have old men at the top, and you will not have used their brains and trained their brains at the time when they are most receptive to training. To be trained for work in a police force men must be taken at an early age. Unless you do that the police force can never be efficient. If, however, you take them early enough it will mean much for the future of the force.
  I leave this point because I feel there must be some misunderstanding about what the Home Secretary meant. I suggest that it is absolutely essential to retain what I believe to be the two fundamental principles in any future police college. In the past, I agree, there was a good deal of opposition to the Hendon Police College by a large number of men in the Metropolitan Police, and I would ask your Lordships to listen for a short time as to why that was so. One has to remember that in no service can all the people who join get to the top. It is mathematically impossible. Even if fifty per cent. get to the top, you can take it that there are still men one off the top, and when promotion

  751
  comes they retire the next day because they have reached the retiring age. Mathematically, if you work out a curve of promotion, you will find that everybody who joins the Army does not become a Field-Marshal. I know there is a saying that every man carries a Field-Marshal's baton in his knapsack, but that does not mean that every man will become a Field-Marshal. Every clergyman does not become a Bishop, and every man interested in politics does not become Prime Minister.
  I will now come to the reason. When I joined the Metropolitan Police I found over fifty per cent. were constables—the noble and learned Lord can correct me if my figures are wrong—who were still walking the streets and could not get any further. In those days there was an impression that the poor unfortunate men could not get on and had to remain without a chance of promotion. Naturally when they saw young men taken into the police force and put over their heads they said that that blocked their promotion, when in fact it really had little effect upon it. The same applies in the Army, where a number of men have to remain as corporals and privates. The police force was formed over 100 years ago, and its system of selecting officers may have suited a police force of about 2,000 to 3,000 men. When it was 8,000 it did not suit it. They tried to get the system changed, but nothing was done. When it was 16,000 another Committee tried again, but it is harder every year you postpone the change. I do not know what the Government feel about this point, but I do know that many people have told me that these ideas are sound and that a young man should be taken early to be trained.
  I would like to bring to your Lordships' notice this afternoon some remarks which have been made, not in the Conservative Press but in what I believe is called the Labour Press. I am not very good at which is which sometimes. The Tribune starts by saying:
  "The higher posts in the police force can be filled either by promotion from the ranks or by importing proved leaders, such as Army officers, from outside the police force. Trenchard introduced a modification by creating a Police College to which he sent a few selected young men from outside the force, but also a larger proportion of chosen young men from the force itself."
  752
  I cannot weary your Lordships by reading it in full, but I have not cut out anything against it. I am quite willing to hand the paper to the noble Lord, if he wants to see it, afterwards. Another paragraph reads:
  "Apparently the Home Office set up a large Committee (about 18) mainly of Chief Constables. They have recommended the first alternative. So -far this report has not been published. But this Committee did not include any firm supporter of the Trenchard thesis. Had such a man been included there would certainly have been a strong minority report.…
  "A service should be able to produce its higher officers from its own members without going outside, as has hitherto been the case with the police. But no service should insist on arduous, slow promotion through the ranks. In the Fighting Services, picked young men, after a short course in the ranks are sent to a specialized course for training officers. The same system should be adopted for the police."
  I should also like to quote from an article in the Economist of the 26th October, which reads:
  "At a time when so much progress has been made in methods of selecting and training men and women for promotion, it is disappointing to hear of steps which can only be a rearded as retrograde for the police. The War Office Selection Boards have been the most prominent example of the new methods of picking out men of any age and rank, even the very young and stripeless, and putting them through exhaustive tests in order to select those most fitted for Commissions. The successful experience of the Services makes it the more surprising that a Home Office Committee consisting mainly of Chief Constables the majority of whom are recruited from outside the police force and very frequently from the Services themselves, should have neglected current experience and be recommending methods for the police which are antiquated and far less satisfactory than those in force before the war.
  "For years the great problem of the police has been to breed sufficient men capable of holding the highest posts and to do away with the need to recruit almost all Chief Constables from outside the force. The Hendon Police College was one attempt to overcome this difficulty for the Metrpolitan Police.
  "Many of Lord Trenchard's innovations met with resistance from the men, but much of it was a natural reaction to new ideas—the self-protective instinct to cling to seniority rules—and was in process of readjustment."
  In my own career, thank goodness, I did not cling to seniority rules, and I beg you to lay down that system for all time for the police force.
  I would like to repeat one point. Although in the past I advocated taking in young men from outside the force and

  753
  letting them go to the college, I have refrained from saying anything about that, and I do not want to advocate it. They can all come from the police ranks now with the present system. I feel that there are two main points that must be decided. First, on what shall this college be based? It must be based upon taking men in the early twenties—excepting the war-period men—who must be given at least eighteen months to two years' training so that you will always keep an efficient and up-to-date police force. Secondly, men so trained, who pass successfully through the college, should receive accelerated advancement. I beg to move.
  4.56 p.m.
  VISCOUNT TEMPLEWOOD: My Lords, I do not think there is anyone in this House who deserves to be listened to with greater sympathy when he talks about questions dealing with our Services, military or civil, than the noble and gallant Viscount who has just addressed the House I am only sorry he did not have a bigger House to address. I am sorry, for instance, that the Benches opposite are not better filled than they are at this moment. He has raised a very important labour question to-day, and I had hoped that more of the noble Lords opposite would have been here to listen to it. I remember very well that when I was at the Home Office the question of the Police College created a good deal of prejudice and misunderstanding. It was supposed to be a class affair and an attempt to militarize the police. Let us be quite clear that there is no intention whatever in anybody's mind to militarize the police. The police are a civil force in almost every respect. They differ from the Fighting Services, and the last thing in the world that any of us had in our minds was to militarize the police force. At that time we had not had the experience of the war in the matter of the selection of officers and leaders. I think the machinery for selection has entirely dissipated any idea that class interests enter at all into these matters of the selection.
  What does emerge, and it is a fact to which the noble Viscount has drawn emphatic attention, is that the police force as it is to-day has never been reformed and has never kept up to date with modern methods. For generation after generation there have been attempts to
  754
  introduce new methods into the police force, but from the time when it was only a force of a few thousand under Sir Robert Peel until to-day when it has scores of thousands; scarcely anything has been done. Whereas in every walk of life in the world outside—military and civil—there have been adopted these new methods of selecting young men at an early stage in their career and fitting them by special training for holding high posts in their subsequent careers, very little of that kind has been done with the police. The beginnings of the college were only showing themselves when I left the Home Office, but, at the same time, even the limited record of the Police College up to the present is a very creditable record. The noble Viscount quoted the cases of the counties who have looked to these young inspectors for their high posts in the local police forces, and several of the Colonial police forces have also selected these young men.
  I am sure we should try to avoid what has always happened in the past—namely, that when it comes to the top posts in the Metropolitan Police or in the county police forces, there is a very general tendency to go outside the police force. If you look at the officers at the head of these forces now you will find, in many cases, that, owing to the fact that there was no suitable material in the forces themselves, the authorities have had to go outside for their selections. I notice that in the speech to which the noble Viscount has referred, the Home Secretary also said that he intended, in the future, not to go outside the Metropolitan Police Force for his promotions. If that be the case, it strengthens very greatly the demand for a college of this kind, that will train leaders from their earliest days in the Service, and will enable him to have at his disposal material from which he can make his Commissioners and Chief Constables. Unless a system of this kind is employed, I do not see how, without lowering the general standard of the police, he will be able to avoid going outside to get men for these higher appointments.
  The noble Viscount, to-day, has removed from the picture one, of the factors that certainly prejudiced the idea of the police college in the years immediately before the war. He said that he did not contemplate direct entry into this college. He was prepared to move on the lines

  755
  that have proved so successful with the three Fighting Services during the war, and to make every entrant into the police go through a period in the ranks. I think, if I may say so, that that is an improvement on the original scheme. It seems to me to remove the prejudice that had been created against bringing in young men from outside and giving them the rank of Junior Inspectors.
  I would have thought, myself, that in view of the experience of the three Fighting Services in the War, the success of this experiment and the urgent need to provide the police with better material for promotion to the posts of senior officers it is essential that a college of this kind, based upon the noble Viscount's original conceptions, should be formed. And it should be made perfectly clear that this is no attempt at class differentiation, nor is it an attempt to militarize the police force. I therefore support the Motion of the noble Viscount, and, as a former Home Secretary, I say to the House that I think, in the interests of the police, it is essential that a college of this kind should be formed and satisfactorily supported.
  5.4.p.m.
  VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, I spent five years of my life in work at the Home Office and, however inadequate my service may have been in other respects, I think that I am entitled to a certain measure of public gratitude for the fact that I succeeded in inducing the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, to accept the post of Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police. He did so against his own wishes and desires, and indeed contrary to arrangements which he had already made. It was purely out of a sense of public duty that he accepted the office. He has mentioned to-day that it was for a short period, but, as a matter of fact, he served in it for four years, and improved very greatly the efficiency of the whole force.
  Perhaps one of the greatest of his achievements was the establishment of this police college which is tinder discussion to-day. Of course such an institution ought to have been established years and years before. It is extraordinary that it was never done previously during the hundred years that the police force had been in existence, but I suppose it was always imagined that the police was a sort of rough-and-tumble business, a force
  756
  which could be managed more or less by rule of thumb. However, now that rogues and criminals have become technicians in their trade, it is necessary that the police also should become highly specialized in their counter measures. Moreover, Parliament is continually placing fresh duties, the fulfilment of additional functions, upon the police forces, and the police system of the country is becoming a complex and highly technical profession.
  As both the noble Lords who have spoken have mentioned, the Metropolitan police force has never, hitherto, produced its own chiefs from its own ranks. That is because of the method of promotion from within. After all, fifteen, twenty or thirty years' application to more or less routine duties, through all the different ranks, does not tend to evolve men capable of showing the necessary grasp and initiative which is called for in the high command. The result has been that the best posts in the Force in the past have always gone to outsiders. That is wrong, and it is discouraging to the force as a whole. If it is to be remedied, the first step must be to secure that in their youth the most promising members of the force should receive special technical training.
  It is right, as is now proposed, that young men should go first into the ranks, for experience of the conditions of the rank and file is one of the qualifications of a good officer. That has been recognized in our day in the Defence Services and indeed in many businesses. The young cadets of business are often put into lower ranks before being taken into the executive posts. I believe that people at the head of hotel businesses if they have sons or other relatives whom they wish to 'put into their businesses, usually send them to start in the sculleries and kitchens. But they do not keep them there for two or three years, and then promote them to other subordinate posts and keep them in subordinate posts for five or ten years before bringing them into positions of management. The procedure is similar in many of the other great industries of the country. Young men may go into business to get training at the bench or in the foundries as the case may be, and they are swiftly brought forward into positions of authority. The same idea is now applied in the Services of the Crown, and the experiences of our Army during the recent war was most striking in that regard.

  757
  We all know of the system that was then established of War Office Selection Boards and Officer Cadet Training Units—W.O.S.B. and O.C.T.U., as they are technically called, and how that system has been exceedingly successful. Under it, young men go through the ranks and the most promising, on the recommendations of their Commanding Officers, were quickly given opportunities of promotion. But could you imagine, in the Army, the authorities insisting that every man should become a private, then a corporal, then a sergeant, then a Second Lieutenant, then a full Lieutenant, then a Captain and so on, before he can attain the rank of General? It is quite certain that that would by no means conduce to success in war, while the system now adopted has unquestionably given us a far better and more efficient Army than we have ever had before. Why should the police force alone differ from businesses and the Military Services and be deprived of such an advantage? Why should there be insistence that its chiefs must have ten, fifteen or twenty years of routine experience before they can be given opportunities of command?
  Unless this new system, which was first introduced by the noble Viscount, is revived and continued, the right men of the right class will not come in. They will just simply keep away because they will not agree to go through all these years of routine service before getting the opportunity to use the talents which they may know themselves to possess. Equality of opportunity is an essential democratic principle, and we who call ourselves Liberals follow the creed of politics which has striven for that all through the generations. But equality of opportunity must be applied first in our educational system. Throw open our secondary schools and universities to the whole nation. That is now rapidly being done, and the best students from the secondary schools and the universities should be afforded opportunities in the police force as in other Services to go in and to secure quickly the promotion to which their special qualifications may entitle them.
  I hope we are moving towards a classless society. That is the proclaimed purpose of the Party now in power, and I for one entirely support that aim. A classless society, however, does not mean that men are to become leaders in all the various branches of our political, Indus-
  758
  trial and social organization, merely by seniority, that they are all to be assumed of equal capacity and to rise equally, and with equal speed, to the higher ranks, We want to gain advantages from the new order by drawing our talent from the whole nation, but we do not want to throw away the advantages that the old order possessed of securing for the higher posts men of the best education. That would be discouraging access to the higher posts for the men who have been to secondary schools and universities.
  Certainly there is a reaction from the long centuries of privileges granted to the well-to-do, and the well-born (as we sometimes call them) in giving them posts of profit under the Crown above their personal deserts. In reaction from that, we must not give posts above their deserts to other people, merely because they do not belong to the well-to-do classes. That would be a kind of inverted snobbery. That is not democracy; that is demagogy. True democracy holds that the nation has a right to draw its leadership in all activities from the best in the whole population, and to produce a literal aristocracy, government of the best, out of its own democratic system. That the members of the wealthier classes should secure advancement above their qualifications when others are better, is wrong; but for members of the poorer classes to secure advancement above their qualifications when others who are better are available, is also wrong.
  Here we have a question of principle—on what lines our social transition, which has now been going on for a long time, shall go on proceeding in the future. This matter is really a test case, and that is why it merits the very careful consideration of your Lordships' House, and of the whole country. Upon the principle adopted in this outstanding instance the future well-being of the nation may in large measure depend. For my own part, I share the anxieties of the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, and the noble Viscount, Lord Templewood, as to the future of this police college. I trust that the Government will reply to-day to the question of whether the college is to be reopened and, if so, at what age the students are to enter. I sincerely trust that the answer may be such as to relieve those anxieties.
  5.13 p.m.
  LORD CALVERLEY: My Lords, I speak from a quite different angle from

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  that of the three noble Lords who preceded me. I can only add my quota to the debate as a member for many years of a Watch Committee, although a very important Watch Committee. I hope the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack will say that Hendon College is going to be reopened. I visited that college from its very beginning to its closing. The noble Viscount, who was then Commissioner, made a grave mistake in making the college the residence of a very small, privileged, hand-picked body of students. I got to know many of them personally. They were a grand lot of young fellows. The only thing against them was that they had come in at the wrong door. I hope that in his reply the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chancellor, with be very forthright, and will say that Hendon College shall be one of several colleges to be opened for constables—those who have carried the lamp, as we say in the provinces—and that Hendon College will not be allowed to be under the sole control of the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police.
  If he will allow me to say so, the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, was a genius in administration, and we have a gem of a Commissioner to-day. But Hendon College should be one of several colleges belonging to, and administered through, say, the Home Office—through a board of governors if you like. Entry should be not simply from the Metropolitan area. When the noble Viscount instituted his privileged class at Hendon, he sent a cold shiver down the backs of young fellows with good education—not a university education, but a good secondary education—from our London grammar schools and similar establishments, of which there are plenty. When he said: "I will promote at once a young chap who has done eighteen months' efficient service at Hendon, I will make him an Inspector," they felt it equally. I would remind your Lordships, in reply to the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, that promotion in the police force, by its very nature, must be slower than promotion in either the Army or the Air Force. The very number of sergeants and inspectors who are needed—the even smaller number of superintendents—. means that the gate of promotion—you might call it a postern gate—is largely closed. It is easier for one of Viscount Trenchard's nominees to go through the
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  eye of a needle than for constables who are not hand-picked to become sergeants, let alone inspectors.
  I had the privilege of joining a Selection Board for the Army on a few occasions, and of seeing the young fellows who were to be picked for the O.C.T.Us. We can still adopt that method in the police force, and yet recognize and appreciate the channel which is there, the advice of the Chief Constable to the Watch Committee. Let us copy what the West Riding Police Authority have done. They have a most admirable training centre in Yorkshire. The principle needs extending, and we want similar centres in other parts of the country. Open Hendon College, which, as I say, is admirable, for the southern counties—although I deprecate even that. I well remember paying a visit to the college just before it was closed, and finding twenty-four inspectors, men in their "thirties" who had come in for a refresher course at the college. It did them the world of good.
  When, as I think he did, Lord Temple-wood stated that we had not made much progress in the training of our police, I would rather deprecate his suggestion, because any Watch Committee worth its salt has its own course, though one which, I agree, may be inadequate. In West Riding it is to some extent inadequate, but they are now, and have been for many years, seeing the light. It is now out' of the question, as it was out of the question during the war period, to have a Sandhurst course, with training extending over a period of eighteen months. I do not know but I believe that in the Royal Air Force the training had ro be somewhat longer than in some of our O.C.T.Us. In the infantry, I believe training, was cut down to four or five months, and in the artillery to under six months. Therefore, let us get hold of these young fellows and give them a six months' course. Some of them may be married. Let them take their wives along with them.
  I trust that the House will set its face like flint against the prehistoric policy which the noble Viscount adopted when he was Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police Force. So far as privileges are concerned, I hope they are done with once and for all. Let us throw Hendon open as quickly as possible. I would suggest that we extend these colleges in the provinces. We need them if our police

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  forces are to be able to tackle modern crime. Let us realize that a policeman's lot when he is on his beat by himself is a lonely one, and the training of a policeman is not comparable with, and cannot be treated in the same way as that, let us say, of a company of young lads in the infantry or some other arm of His Majesty's Forces.
  I am glad that the noble Viscount has introduced this debate. I hope that he will force an answer from His Majesty's Government that Hendon, Harrogate and similar places shall be made available and that young fellows shall not have to be handpicked; that there shall be a proper method of selection through the appropriate channels, that they shall be allowed to train, and shall not be as old as Methuselah before they are promoted to Superintendent or Chief Constable. I agree with the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, that the idea that there can be an equalitarian basis of promotion has gone by the board. Therefore I am hoping that the Lord Chancellor will be able to say that Hendon will be opened as one of several colleges under a new régime, that there will be new ideas, and that the course shall be open to all young constables who can benefit from it.
  5.25 p.m.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD JOWITT): My Lords, I am glad that the noble Viscount has raised this matter, which is obviously one of very great importance. His speech, reinforced as it was by the speeches of two previous Home Secretaries, and further reinforced in certain aspects by the speech of the noble Lord who has just sat down and who has much practical experience, is obviously one that the Government must take into consideration.
  I am, however, in this rather difficult position to-day. It so happens that to-morrow is the day on which the Home Secretary is meeting the representatives of the provincial police authorities, that is to say, the County Councils Association and the Association of Municipal Corporations, in order to see whether a police college can be evolved, not confined to the Metropolitan Police but available to the police forces throughout the country. That was, indeed, one of the ideas of the Hendon College. In its later stages Hendon did take police officers from the provinces. But it did not work very well.
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  As the noble Viscount knows quite well, there were difficulties. I am quite certain that we should do well to consider whether we should not try and constitute this college on a rather wider basis extending to the provinces. If that is so, noble Lords in all parts of the House will realize that I should to-day be very ill-advised, within a few hours of to-morrow's meeting, to state any definite point of view which would seem to indicate that the Home Secretary had made up his mind before he heard the views and representations of these two bodies. Therefore, if your Lordships will allow me, I will discuss this matter on very broad and general terms.
  Of course, I agree that we owe it to the police and we owe it to ourselves to see that the police are given every facility for dealing with modern crime as it exists to-day. That means a very high degree of training and a very high degree of skill in the various methods which the up-to-date criminal uses. Therefore, obviously, we must aim at efficiency. I will state quite frankly, that whatever else may be said about Hendon College, there is no doubt that no criticism could be levelled at it on the ground that it failed to secure efficiency. On the other hand, great men can always afford to admit that they have made mistakes, and I think it probable—indeed I inferred it from his speech—that the noble Viscount will agree that it was unfortunate that he tried the experiment of bringing in a certain proportion of young men from outside. I do not know the exact figures; I have had them given to me; I have not got them at the moment, but my impression is that something like one third were people who came from outside the police force altogether, with no previous police experience. They came largely from the public schools, and when they had passed through the college they were at once appointed Junior Station Inspectors.
  That was the position, and there is no doubt that the police force felt considerably disturbed about it. Fortunately, we have a very fine body of men in the police and the fact that the police were disturbed about this—were disgruntled, if you like, about it—is a fact which any wise administrator must take into consideration. And, therefore, the noble Viscount in his speech to-day said quite plainly that he was not now pressing any claim for that sort of entry. He realizes

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  that every policeman must now serve some time in the ranks. As to the length of time which he has to serve in the ranks, obviously I am on rather delicate ground, in view of to-morrow's meeting. May I say this? On the one hand, I do not think that his service in the ranks should be merely colourable. The noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, referred to the fact that eminent people in the catering trade send their sons through the scullery, through the kitchen and so on. I suspect that they stay in the scullery only a few days and in the kitchen only a few weeks. They can then say that they have been through the scullery and the kitchen, but I should imagine it is rather colourable. I think we must avoid that mistake.
  In view of the present feeling in the police force, I am certain it would be unwise to think that we were having what was really this direct entry in another guise. But having said that, equally I think we should do well to avoid the other thing. The noble Viscount referred to arduous and slow promotion, and seemed to think that men would not be able to get to this college for fifteen years. I sincerely hope that it will be nothing like that length of time, because I quite agree that you should select not on the mere basis of age or passage of time. You should no doubt have regard to experience, but surely you should also have regard to intelligence and to character. I devoutly hope that those selecting the young men who have been through the ranks—and really served in the ranks—will select them for a police college on that sort of credentials.
  I do not suppose that the time to be spent at the police college will be as long two years, as I think the time used to be. I think it will probably have to be shorter. I think it will be much more embracing. By that I do not mean that the course will be more embracing, but the number of men coming in will be much larger and, as I have said, they will come in not only from the London Metropolitan Police but also from the provincial forces, and possibly that who are going to serve in the Colonial Services will go there. You will therefore get a mixing of all sorts of people. Those are the sort of lines on which the course will probably be developed.
  But may I add this? I believe it is a scheme which will grow. I think at the
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  present moment, in starting it again, we should be very wise to consider the atmosphere which prevails to-day in the police force in regard to such a scheme. I think we should be wise to start on the sort of lines I have indicated. But it is an expanding idea; it will develop, and I sincerely hope that, whilst avoiding anything that can be thought to be an officer class in the police, or anything of that kind, we shall at the same time make it quite plain that the men we want to get into high position in the police force are men who, after adequate experience, have shown by their skill, judgment and initiative that they are men who can be entrusted with a great position. I am afraid I have replied to this debate in very general terms. I think your Lordships will appreciate, in view of the discussions which are taking place to-morrow morning, that I have deliberately refrained from going into greater detail with regard to this matter.
  5.33 p.m.
  VISCOUNT TRENCHARD: My Lords, I cannot do more than thank the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack for his very courteous reply, although, to be quite frank, I do not think he has answered the main point more than to put into very nice language that it is coming out against my thesis. The question of opening the college to all the police forces of this country has a lot to be said for it,. but it does not alter the basis of the college. The noble and learned Lord seemed to criticize me for not having opened it to all. A large number of people wanted me to do it, but they were attacking me for wanting to unify the whole of the police forces under the Metropolitan Police, and were saying that I wanted to eat up all the provincial police. I only started the college for the Metropolitan Police Force because the Metropolitan Police Force is the force for which I was responsible, although I hoped that other forces would join in. They did not join in then, but I understand now that they want to.
  I would urge the noble and learned Lord with all the force that I can muster to represent to the Government that it is not a question of saying that a man has to have a lot of experience. It is a question of what are the best ways of training although some experience in the ranks is no doubt good. The noble and learned

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  Lord devoted part of his speech to making reference to my introducing people from outside. I do not defend that here to-day, because I do not want to weary your Lordships, although I could give a very good explanation, which would no doubt convince a number of your Lordships, as it did then.
  To come back to the point that part of the time should be served in the ranks which was not a humbug, I entirely agree on that. I want the same as is done in other professions. If a man goes before a Selection Board and is selected as a likely leader he should not be kept back on the streets to do a certain term but should be given a chance straight away. I say definitely that if you keep a man too long on the streets, or too long in the ranks—and as to the definition of "too long we may differ—you are doing him harm if it is intended that he should become a leader. He will not be as efficient as he would be if he were taken earlier. It is hard enough to train a constable to be a constable, but it is a thousand times harder to train him to be a superintendent or an inspector. He wants more training and, therefore, he has got to be taken earlier. You will never keep the police force up to date, any more than it was kept up to date before, in their ordinary amenities and standard of life, unless you take men who are trained and keen for it at the earliest possible age after they have had a minimum experience in the ranks. I beg leave to withdraw my Motion for Papers.
  Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

  PROCEDURE OF THE HOUSE.
  THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DROGHEDA): My Lords, I beg to move that the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, be added to the Select Committee on Procedure of the House.
  Moved, That the Viscount Stansgate be added to the Select Committee on Procedure of the House.—(The Earl of Drogheda.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932.
  Orders made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department extending Section of the Act to the
  Borough of Dartmouth;
  Urban District of Stroud;
  Rural District of Petworth:
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and ordered to lie on the Table.