MINISTRY OF DEFENCE BILL. (Hansard, 5 December 1946)

§ THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DOMINION AFFAIRS (VISCOUNT ADDISON)
My Lords, I think this Bill will already be well understood in consequence of the long and interesting discussion which your Lordships had on the subject of our Defence proposals quite recently, and it is only necessary for me to put into form what was generally the understanding at that time. I would, however, make one or two explanatory observations on the Bill. It will be noticed that the definition of the duties of the Minister in Clause 1 is in general terms. The reasons for that are fairly clear, I think. If your Lordships look at the White Paper, you will see that in paragraph 19 it says: Above all, experience during these years has shown the need of a Minister who has both the time and the authority to formulate and apply a unified defence policy for the three Services; 632 Those are quite general terms. Later on in the White Paper, in paragraph 26, there is considerable elaboration of the functions of the Minister of Defence, but I think your Lordships will agree that it would be better to express them in such general terms as are set out in Clause 1 so that his powers may be exercised as experience may develop.
I should, however, mention one other matter. In Clause 1 of the Bill occur the words "and general application of a unified policy." The words "general application" are inserted in order to make it clear that the Minister of Defence will not be responsible for the detailed administration of the separate Services. That, I am sure, is most important. In the White Paper the scheme is set out under which the Ministers responsible for the different Services retain administrative responsibility for their Services, and it will not be for the Minister of Defence to undertake the detailed responsibility of Service administration; his duties are of a wider and more general character.
Another matter which I think I ought to point out to your Lordships is this. As experience in the last war shows, defence involves the whole civilian population and everything else, but it is not our intention that the Minister of Defence, as such, shall deal with all the work of the civil Departments, the Fire Services and so on, which will be necessary. That will be the business of the Defence Committee, of course under the Cabinet, and not the responsibility of the Defence Minister. The words in Clause 1 confine the duties of the Minister of Defence to the "general application of a unified policy relating to the Armed Forces of the Crown" I think what I have said indicates the necessity for wording of that character. As to the rest of the Bill, it is purely machinery and in the usual form. I hope that those few explanations have satisfied your Lordships and that you will give the Bill a Second Reading.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2^a.—(Viscount Addison.)

§ VISCOUNT SWINTON
My Lords, I agree with the noble Viscount the Leader of the House that this Bill can be rapidly disposed of, because in effect it had its Second Reading in the long and interesting Defence debate we had on the White Paper. As the noble Viscount has said, 633 the Bill gives legislative sanction and approval to the policy of the White Paper. In so doing it confirms the policy of co-operation as against self-sufficiency, and it effects that by having permanently a Minister of Defence. I think the proposals in the White Paper commanded very general approval, subject to the proviso which I think the Government fully accept that the Prime Minister shall in no way, either in form or in fact, divest himself of his responsibility for Defence. The Minister of Defence is in some sense his alternate.
The Bill establishes the Minister and the Ministry. It is right that the Minister should have a Ministerial establishment. The Bill is in what I may call common form. I agree with the noble Leader of the House that it is wise to keep this organization flexible, and I was particularly pleased to hear him emphasize that there was to be no duplication in the work of the Minister. The Minister has a tremendous task in formulating and evoking a combined policy, making that effective and co-ordinating the work of the Services. He should have a department but I hope and trust it will be a small department. What he wants is an adequate staff, good but small. Apart from the anxiety which was expressed and which we all shared, that there shall be no weakening but on the contrary a strengthening in common consultation and common planning in matters of Defence for the whole Commonwealth, I think the general set-up of the White Paper was acceptable to the House; and particularly acceptable was the firm laying down of the position of the Chiefs of Staff, both in their individual capacity and in their combined capacity as the Chiefs of Staff Committee. We are, therefore, for once really in complete agreement over some measure.
There is only one other matter I should like to mention, and I mention it now because the announcement was made after our last debate. I am sure I am speaking for all noble Lords in all corners of the House when I say how gratified we are that Sir Henry Tizard has been appointed Chief Scientific Officer. It was my privilege to work for many years with him. In two wars and between two wars no man of science gave greater help to the three Services, and to the Royal Air Force in particular. He commands in equal degree the confidence of men of 634 science and of men in all three of the Fighting Services. He has a unique capacity for team-work whether he is working with his fellow scientists or with Service officers. There could not be a better appointment. We welcome this Bill and, if I may say so, we welcome the appointment not only of a Minister but of the Minister who has been chosen for this post. We wish the Bill a swift passage and the Minister a happy and successful voyage.

§ VISCOUNT SAMUEL
My Lords, the purpose of this Bill is simply to carry into effect one of the principal provisions of the policy stated in the White Paper recently and fully discussed in this House. In the course of that discussion I expressed on behalf of noble Lords on these Benches our support of that policy, and consequently it is unnecessary for me to say more to-day than that we support also this Bill.

§ LORD MORRISON
My Lords, if I may be permitted very briefly to make a suggestion arising out of this Bill I do so because I know of no other opportunity to bring forward the point that I wish your Lordships to consider. In another place the Prime Minister pointed out, as indeed my noble friend the Leader of the House has done, that it is not intended to make this Department a large one. I hope that will work out in practice, but small Departments have a habit of becoming very large Departments unless a careful watch is kept upon them. If I may venture to prophesy, this country in the very near future will have to face an economy campaign. I do not think there is any doubt about that. I doubt whether at the present time the public realizes the need for economy, I doubt whether the Services realize the need for economy, and I doubt whether the Government realize the need for economy.
It has been said that all war is waste, and I dare say everyone of your Lordships could occupy many hours of the time of this House in quoting examples of such waste. I suggest that this new Ministry should make sure that it starts off on the right leg, and my suggestion is that the new Minister should consider setting up immediately a small Co-ordinating Committee of the three Services in order to deal with the problem of what I call 635 roughly the prevention of waste. It was found in the last war that that was absolutely necessary. The noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, has just said that the Bill provides for consultation amongst the Services, but I would like to see it go further and provide for consultation not only amongst the Services themselves but with other Government Departments, from many of whom a great deal can be learnt. In the last war it was found necessary to set up such a Co-ordinating Committee and before it was fully formed no fewer than ten Government Departments were involved in it. I know a good deal about it because I was its Chairman. It did a great deal of good work and I very much regret that, according to my information, since the war has finished the idea that the Services have anything to learn about the prevention of waste has apparently been abandoned. The people who were responsible, a small technical body, are gradually being dropped and the whole idea is being abandoned.
May I, very briefly, give two examples? I wonder if your Lordships have ever considered what would have happened in the war if the numerous campaigns for the collection of waste-paper had failed to arouse the enthusiasm of the people of the country, and whether the Services would then have got the enormous quantities of containers that were needed for all kinds of munitions and all kinds of supplies. It would have been quite impossible to provide them. The war is now over but there is still need for economy. Are we going back to the same old wasteful ways? The other day I visited the largest paper mills in the British Empire, situated down the River Thames. They are in difficulties because it is impossible to get sufficient raw materials. They are even importing old newspapers from overseas—and this at a time when our streets are littered with old newspapers. There is extravagance in this country, and I am afraid the Services must bear their share of the responsibility for that extravagance.
One of the memories I shall always have of the last war is of an occasion when, six months after the war had started, I saw at the Thames Board Mills a ship which had come in from Norway or Sweden with a cargo of 6,000 tons of old newspapers to be used to keep the 636 board mills going on munitions, and at the same time as the ship was unloading those old newspapers, which British sailors had risked their lives to bring across the seas, barges from Westminster and Chelsea were going past that very place taking old newspapers out to sea and dumping them there. That was the kind of problem we had to face. The other matter I want to mention is waste food. If ever the story of the Co-ordinating Committee over which I presided comes to be written, many people will be startled at the discoveries that were made as to the amount of food that was being wasted at a time when this country was up against it. A great danger arose out of that. In order to maintain our animal population, as much waste food as possible was collected for that purpose, but I am afraid the Services were not always as helpful as they might have been, purely because of lack of understanding. The result was that once or twice during the war serious epidemics of foot-and-mouth disease swept this country, caused entirely through swill collected from the Services which was not properly sterilized.
Local authorities are still carrying on this economy campaign. Up to now they have collected £50,000,000 worth of raw material and put it back into industry, and they are still continuing. Surely this is not the time for the three Services to abandon this idea. If the local authorities are able to carry on and to realize the need for carrying on, surely the Services, under this new Ministry, will be able to carry on as well. That is the suggestion I make. I apologize for having raised the matter in this debate, but I know of no other way in which I could have put the point forward. I hope that the new Minister, as soon as he is appointed, will appoint a Co-ordinating Committee of the Services to deal with the question of the prevention of waste generally. There is at the Board of Trade to-day a small department of technicians who are doing an excellent job of work, and indeed I am perfectly sure if the Ministry would consult them they would advise them in the technical aspects of this matter. I am not suggesting, far from it, that a great number of people should be enlisted in the work. I hope the new Minister will see his way clear to consult with that department in the Board of 637 Trade and get the advice of the technicians on this problem, which is of some importance to the well-being of the country in the near future.