Lords Sitting of 15 April 1946

Preamble
The House met at four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers.

POLICE BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments agreed to.

UNITED NATIONS BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with an Amendment: the said Amendment considered and agreed to.
House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed.

ROYAL COMMISSION.
The following Bills received the Royal Assent:

Patents and Designs,

United Nations,

Police,

Inverness Water Order Confirmation,

Metropolitan Water Board,

London Necropolis.

House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
LORD AMMON: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Viscount Addison, I beg to move the Motion standing in his name.
Moved, That Standing Orders Nos. XXI and XXXIX. be considered in order to their being suspended until the House adjourn for the Recess at Easter, and that, until that date, Government business have, except with the consent of the Government, precedence over other
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Notices and Orders of the Day.—(Lord Ammon.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

ACQUISITION OF LAND (AUTHORISATION PROCEDURE) BILL
Amendments reported (according to order).
Clause 9:
Provisions as to Scotland.
(13) Paragraph 11 is of the First Schedule to this Act shall have effect as if—

(i) the Minister having jurisdiction to give a certificate under sub-paragraph (1) were in all cases the Secretary of State; and

(ii) sub-paragraph (3) were omitted.

(15) Paragraph 11 of the First Schedule to this Act shall have effect as if in sub-paragraph (1) thereof after the words "not being less in area" there were inserted the words "(unless the person in whom the land was vested otherwise agrees)."
4.21 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD JOWITT): My Lords, there are several Amendments which I am proposing to move in answer to your Lordships' requests on the Committee stage. The first is a manuscript Amendment which arises on Clause 9 of the. Bill. If your Lordships would be good enough to turn to page 12, you will see that this is a mere matter of drafting. This clause deals with the application of the measure to Scotland. Subsection (13) begins:
"Paragraph 11 of the First Schedule to this Act shall have effect as if—"
and then, in subsection 15, you will see exactly the same words. The explanation is that one of the subsections was moved in Committee. It is quite obvious that subsection (15) and subsection (13) ought to be put together in order that we may deal in one subsection with paragraph 11 of the First Schedule, and that subsection (14), which deals with a different matter should be differently placed. The Amendment I intend to propose later is to omit subsection (15), which will become part of subsection (13) by the Amendment I now move. My first Amendment, therefore, is in subsection

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13 (i), after the word "State," to insert: "(ii) after the words 'not being less in area' there were inserted the words '(unless the person in whom the land was vested otherwise agrees).'" That is simply putting subsection (15) into subsection (13). I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 9, after ("State") insert ("(ii) after the words 'not being less in area' there were inserted the words. '(unless the person in whom the land was vested otherwise agrees)'").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, the next Amendment is consequential. It is to leave out subsection (15).
Amendment moved—
Page 12, lines 28 to 31, leave out subsection (15).—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.

FIRST SCHEDULE.

  PROCEDURE FOR AUTHORIZING COMPULSORY PURCHASES.
  Validity and date of operation of compulsory purchase orders.
  15.—(1) If any person aggrieved by a compulsory purchase order desires to question the validity thereof, or of any provision contained therein, on the ground that the authorization of a compulsory purchase thereby granted is not empowered to be granted under this Act or any such enactment as is mentioned in subsection (1) of Section one of this Act, or if any person aggrieved by a compulsory purchase order or a certificate under Part III of this Schedule desires to question the validity thereof on the ground that any requirement of this Act or of any regulation made there under has not been complied with in relation to the order or certificate, he may, within twenty-eight days from the date on which notice of the confirmation or making of the order or of the giving of the certificate is first published in accordance with the provisions of this Schedule in that behalf, make an application to the High Court, and on any such application the Court—
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, in sub-paragraph (1) of paragraph 15, to leave out "twenty-eight days" and insert "six weeks." The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, in answer to your Lordships' blandishments I promised that we would see what we could do and I hope we have satisfied your Lordships. Any rate, we have done what we can. I may say that I am not altogether praised
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  by the Ministry of Health when I make these concessions, and I think we are making a real concession here. I have found out—the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Maugham, raised the question—that even though the Courts are not sitting, this application to the Courts is done by means of an originating summons. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 18, line 26, leave out ("twenty-eight days") and insert ("six weeks").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  LORD WOLVERTON: My Lords, I would like to thank the noble and learned Lord Chancellor for this concession.
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THIRD SCHEDULE.

  PROVISIONS AS TO AUTHORIZATIONS UNDER SECTION 2.
  3. Before giving an authorization under Section two of this Act the confirming authority shall consider any representations duly made to the authority.
  The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR moved to add to paragraph 3:
  "and as soon as may be after the authorization has been given or the decision has been taken to refuse it the confirming authority shall send to any person who has made representations with respect thereto specifying an address for the purposes of this paragraph, notification thereof in a registered letter by post to the address specified."
  The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, this is the result of an undertaking we gave to my noble friend Lord Llewellin to look into the matter. He asked that the person concerned should be notified by the Minister and your Lordships will see that we have dealt with that satisfactorily by saying that the Minister has to give notice as soon as may be of the decision he has come to. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 23, line 33, at end, insert the said words.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, my noble friend Lord Llewellin has a number of meetings in the country and could not be here to-day. He wishes me to express his regret.
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Sixth Schedule [Enactments repealed]:
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to insert:

  "The Police Act, 1946. (9 & 10 Geo. 6. c.).

  In Section five, in subsection (3), after the words "Local Government Act, 1933," there shall be inserted the words "and the Acquisition of Land (Authorisation Procedure) Act, 1946."

  In Section fifteen, the words "by means of an order made by the council and confirmed" shall cease to have effect."

  The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, the reason why this matter was not moved in Committee was that there was then no such thing as the Police Act, 1946. The Bill only became an Act during the last few minutes on receiving the Royal Assent. Obviously it was better to leave this matter until the Police Bill had became an Act. The object is to make one common code and consequently I move that we amend the Act which we so recently passed, and your Lordships will understand the reason for doing so. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 38, line 32, at end insert the said words.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended) Bill read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

  HOUSING (FINANCIAL AND MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS) BILL.
  Read 3a (according to Order).
  Standard amount of Exchequer contributions for flats, etc., on expensive sites.
  (2) Where a house (not being a flat in a block of flats)—

  (a) is provided on a site the cost of which as developed (ascertained in accordance with Part I of the First Schedule to this Act) exceeds one thousand five hundred pounds per acre; and

  (b) is provided under a scheme of development which makes provision also for the erection of one or more blocks of flats on the same site as the house;

  then, if the Minister thinks fit so to direct, the standard amount of the annual Exchequer contribution for that house shall be determined in accordance with the Table contained in Part II of the said First Schedule:
  Provided that the Minister shall not give any direction under this subsection in relation to any house unless he is satisfied with respect to the total housing accommodation which has been and is to be provided on the same site as the house, that, satisfactory arrangements could not have been made for providing that accommodation on that site in a single building containing in all its parts the same number of storeys, or in two or more such buildings, unless the number of storeys in that single building, or in each of those two or more buildings, was at least three.
  4.30 p.m.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DOMINION AFFAIRS (VISCOUNT ADDISON)THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DOMINION AFFAIRS (VISCOUNT ADDISON) moved to leave out the proviso in subsection (2). The noble Lord said: My Lords, as your Lordships will be aware, in our very interesting discussion last week, on an Amendment moved by Lord Balfour of Burleigh, it was suggested that in Clause 4 (2) the Minister's discretion was unduly restricted. In an answer which I gave to the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, I promised to look into the matter, and to see whether any Amendment could be devised which would leave the Minister less fettered. The noble Viscount contended that the desire was that the Minister should not be restricted in the exercise of his discretion by words in the Bill. My right honourable friend and his advisers have given careful consideration to this, and I should like here to say how very much we are indebted to the noble and learned Lord Chancellor for the assistance which he gave us in our conferences. The Minister was very anxious to meet the wishes of this House.
  Of course, it is quite understood that where you have these highly expensive sites in crowded areas, it must be necessary, in some cases, to build flats on them. That is accepted by everybody. But, quite clearly, it was felt that, to some extent, the words in the proviso rather fettered the Minister's discretion. I do not think that he felt that really would be so in fact, but he has authorized me to say that, in deference to what was said here, he is prepared to omit the whole proviso. I think that that fully meets the case put by the noble Viscount opposite. I accordingly beg to move the Amendment standing in my name, which will have the effect of omitting the words from line 29 to line 37 inclusive on page 3. In other words, it will omit the whole of the proviso to which exception was taken. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 3, line 28, leave out from ("Schedule") to the end of line 37.—(Viscount Addison.)
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, I am extremely grateful—and I am sure that the whole House is—to the noble Viscount, the Leader of the House, and to the noble and learned Lord Chancellor, for the reconsideration which has been given to this matter. What has happened does show how greatly we can improve things here when we act, as the noble Lord has expressed it, as a Council of State in these matters. I think that we have really managed now to get this Bill into exactly the form which we should all wish to see it take. Everybody agrees that where you have a great density of population which must be rehoused in the same place, and it is physically impossible to rehouse them except in flats, then you have to do the rehousing by means of flats. Equally, if the expense of the site is so enormous that the only way of building houses instead of flats would be by giving an utterly disproportionate subsidy or charging wholly excessive rents, then the erection of flats, again, must be the way of rehousing. But this is a general Bill, and the Schedule does apply to everything over £1,500 an acre.
  Without expressing an opinion on the legal aspect of the drafting, I would say that it certainly appears open to doubt whether "shall not" does not provide a positive direction. It seems to me that the proviso does constitute a positive direction, and I believe that it would have made it impossible for the Minister of Health, in many cases, to do what he would wish to do, even if he had a predilection in favour of flats. Certainly, the great majority of us here, and of the people in the country also, want to build houses rather than flats where it is not outrageously expensive to do so. We desire to build houses wherever that is a socially and economically sound procedure. There will now be complete discretion in the Minister to approve proposals to that effect which may be made to him by local authorities. May I repeat that I am very much obliged to the noble Viscount, the Leader of the House, and to the noble and learned Lord Chancellor for taking a great deal of trouble about this? I think that we have
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  now arrived at a solution which will give very real satisfaction.
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Clause 11 [Contributions for certain houses provided by housing associations since 1939]:
  LORD HENDERSON LORD HENDERSON: My Lords, I beg to move the first Amendment standing in my name. This is a purely drafting Amendment. It is necessary because only one condition is specified in the preceding paragraph. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 9, line 31, leave out ("conditions") and insert ("condition").—(Lord Henderson.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Clause 22 [Provision of housing accommodation in the Isles of Scilly]:
  LORD HENDERSON LORD HENDERSON: My Lords, this is also a drafting Amendment which it is desired to make to bring the provision into line with common form. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 18, line 26, after the second ("to") insert ("the validity of").—(Lord Henderson.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.

  EDUCATION BILL.
  4.38 p.m.
  Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
  LORD AMMON: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend the Earl of Listowel, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a third time.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord Ammon.)
  THE EARL OF PERTH: My Lords, I had meant to submit to your Lordships this afternoon a question which I raised in the Committee stage of this Bill, and which the noble Earl who is in charge of the Bill had promised to consider. I read in Hansard of the 9th of April the answer which the noble Earl gave to me in the Committee stage on Tuesday, and it did not seem to me that, as it was there reported, it was altogether satisfactory. Therefore I had intended to raise the point again this afternoon. My attention has, however, been called to a correction which, was made in Hansard the next

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  day, April 10. This, frankly, had escaped my notice, as there is no mention earlier in the Report of the correction, and though read Hansard very carefully, it did not occur to me to look at the very end of the Report. Now, having read that amended version of the noble Earl's reply, I would like to thank him, and to state that the assurances given are as satisfactory as assurances can be, although I still rather wish that the Government had seen their way to accept the Amendment I proposed. I have ventured to draw attention to this matter because I think it may well be that some of your Lordships
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  missed the corrected version of the noble Earl's speech, and the matter with which he was dealing, so far as the people for whom I speak are concerned, is of considerable importance.
  On Question, Bill read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

  GREAT WESTERN RAILWAY BILL.
  Brought from the Commons, read 1a and referred to the Examiners.
  House adjourned at twenty minutes before live o'clock.