HL Deb 11 April 1946 vol 140 cc711-9

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly:

[The VISCOUNT MERSEY in the Chair.]

Clause 1 agreed to.

Clause 2:

Temporary powers for speedy acquisition of land in urgent cases.

(2) Where during the period aforesaid the Minister of Transport is satisfied that it is expedient that he should purchase any land under any enactment mentioned in paragraph (b) of subsection (1) of the foregoing section, or the Board of Trade are satisfied that it is expedient that they should purchase any land under the Distribution of Industry Act, 1945, and the Minister or Board are satisfied that it is urgently necessary in the public interest that the Minister or Board should be enabled to obtain possession of the land without delay, the Minister or Board may, in lieu of being authorized to purchase the land in accordance with the provisions of the foregoing section or of the said Act of 1945, be so authorized, subject to the provisions of the Third Schedule to this Act, by an authorization in writing given by the Minister or Board under this subsection.

In the following provisions of this section and in the Third Schedule to this Act the expressions "acquiring authority" and "confirming authority" include the Minister of Transport or Board of Trade acting under this subsection.

(6) Notwithstanding anything in the two last foregoing subsections, where apart from this subsection the compensation for the compulsory purchase of land in respect of which an authorization has been given under this section would be reduced by virtue of paragraph 9 of the Fifth Schedule to the Town and Country Planning Act, 1944 (which relates to purchases under that Act of houses unfit for human habitation), the reduction shall not be made unless an order under the said paragraph 9 has come into operation before the date on which the acquiring authority entered on the land.

4.11 p.m.

LORD LLEWELLIN had given Notice of two Amendments to subsection (2)—namely, to omit the words "Minister of Transport is satisfied that it is expedient that he should purchase any land under any enactment mentioned in paragraph (b) of subsection (1) of the foregoing section, or the," and, after "the Distribution of Industry Act, 1945," insert "or where the Minister of Transport is satisfied that in connexion with such action by the President of the Board of Trade it is expedient that he should purchase any land under any enactment mentioned in paragraph (b) of subsection I of the foregoing section."

The noble Lord said: The two Amendments that stand in my name on this clause are consequential one upon the other. They attempt to do this. In this Bill we are giving these extra quick powers to four Ministers—the Minister of Health, the Secretary of State for Scotland, the President of the Board of Trade, and the Minister of Transport. I think probably there is no noble Lord who, in his heart of hearts, really likes having powers of this sort and taking land and property from people without the owners having the right to be heard. And indeed the Government are not greatly enamoured of these powers because, although they say they are necessary, they are to take them for a period of five years only. Nobody, as I said on Second Reading, wishes in any way to hamper expeditious house building in this country, nor does anyone want to see unemployment growing in some of the distressed areas because of the difficulty of acquiring land for factories. But the Minister of Transport, of course, is on a rather different footing from either of these two purposes, and yet he is given exactly the same powers as the Ministers concerned for housing and building factories.

In another place an attempt was made to delete the Minister of Transport entirely from this Bill and not to allow him to have these powers. I read very carefully what the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport said on that occasion, and, as I understand it is in order to quote a Minister, perhaps I may just quote what he said. He justified the powers on one ground, and on one ground only. He said: In order that we may assist the President of the Board of Trade in creating his Development Areas by making the necessary access roads, to make them really effective for their purpose, it is desirable, it is essential that my right honourable friend the Minister of War Transport should have the powers which we propose in this subsection. That was the only ground on which this clause was justified. My Amendment, if accepted, would give the Minister of Transport that power, because in connexion with such action by the Board of Trade he gets the full powers which were the only powers that the Parliamentary Secretary has asked for in this Bill.

I do not think that we should give those powers unless they are really shown to be necessary. So far no justification has been put forward for their being given to the Minister of Transport on any other ground. He never wants them for his ordinary trunk roads. They are planned ages ahead and work started on them. Plans are made and the land can be acquired well in advance, and surely there is no necessity to have these rush powers in cases of that sort. If this Amendment is passed we give those powers where they are asked for—I would not say justified—and restrict them to that. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 13, leave out from the second ("the") to ("Board") in line 16.—(Lord Llewellin.)

LORD PAKENHAM

We are very grateful to the noble Lord who has moved this Amendment for the very reasonable way in which he has done it, thereby giving us a chance in this House of making a full explanation of the point involved. I have been at some pains in the fairly short time available to conduct some researches into this question, and I hope the noble Lord will tell me when I have said enough, because otherwise I might be in danger of detaining the Committee for too long a time. I have one positive piece of reassurance here which I think I might impart to the noble Lord at the beginning, because it may be of comfort to him and to your Lordships. If these powers are acquired by the Minister of Transport it does not mean that no local inquiry will be held. This is a point that may be new to many members of your Lordships' House. The Minister of Transport has no power to construct a new trunk road anywhere save under the provisions of Section I of the Trunk Roads Act, 1946, which has just passed through Parliament. Under that section he must first make an order, advertise it locally and in the London Gazette, receive objections, and if a public inquiry is demanded, hold that inquiry before he can confirm the order. It is only after that has been done that he has power to buy the la ad for the construction of the new road. So that one inquiry is bound to take place anyway, in the case we are discussing. All that is being cut out, in the exceptional situation where Clause 2 is used, is a second inquiry which would otherwise be necessary. I do not know whether that will satisfy the noble Lord or whether he would wish for a rather more detailed account of the kind of purpose for which the powers in question are being sought.

LORD LLEWELLIN

I am much obliged to the noble Lord. Apparently, those powers, as drafted in the Bill at the present time, do not give him any wider power (if he has still got to rely on the Trunk Roads Act) than would be given to him if my Amendment were accepted. Is that what it comes to?

LORD PAKENHAM

No, it does not quite come to that. If the noble Lord's Amendment is accepted be would be involved in two inquiries, one under the Trunk Roads Act and one under Clause 1, and the ordinary case will be where he does use Clause 1. In exceptional cases Clause 2 will be relied on. I do not know whether the noble Lord would like me to indicate the kind of case where it would be required, and where it would be denied under this Amendment. I am told that it is needed quite independently of action taken by the Board of Trade—of course we hope it may still be effected under Clause 1—and it may be required for schemes which are not themselves within a Development Area, though they may be absolutely fundamental to the prosperity of the Development Area. Examples which I will give are the proposed new bridge across the Severn and its associated roads. The roads in question will in many cases not be in the Development Area themselves, yet they are vital as access roads to South Wales. That is one example. Perhaps I might conclude by reminding the noble Lord that powers very similar to those under Clause 2—in some ways more drastic—were in existence and were used from the Act of 1920 onwards for a period I think of about fifteen years, so that there is nothing very novel in making use of powers of this kind in this connexion. May I once again repeat what I feel cannot be repeated too often, that it is only in exceptional cases and during the emergency period that Clause 2 will be used. I am genuinely grateful for the chance of making this explanation, and I hope the noble Lord will see fit to withdraw his Amendment.

LORD LLEWELLIN

After that explanation by the noble Lord I will withdraw my Amendment. I gather of course with regard to the Severn Tunnel bridge that there is bound to be some public inquiry. I am very much obliged to the noble Lord. I only wanted to ensure that in the normal case there would be some public inquiry in which local opinion could be expressed and men given an opportunity of expressing their views. After the noble Lord's explanation I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

4.20 p.m.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD JOWITT)

My first Amendment is a mere drafting Amendment. These words appear three lines lower down and need not appear twice.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 40, leave out ("as the case may be").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

The next, too, is a drafting Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 4, line 13, leave out ("those provisions") and insert ("the provisions of those sections").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, in subsection (6), to leave out "entered on" and insert "took possession of". The noble and learned Lord said: This is perhaps slightly more than drafting, but very little more. It really is clarification. The words "entered on" are rather ambiguous words. They might cover the case where a man entered beforehand to take a survey or a photograph, or something of that kind. What we have in mind is entering for the purpose of taking possession. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 4, line 23, leave out ("entered on") and insert ("took possession of").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 3:

Power to extinguish certain public rights of way over land acquired.

3.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this section, where land is acquired, or proposed to be acquired,— and there subsists over any part of the land a public right of way, not being a right enjoyable by vehicular traffic, then if the Minister of Town and Country Planning (hereafter in this, section referred to as "the Minister") is satisfied that a suitable alternative right of way has been or will be provided, or that the provision thereof is not required, he may by order extinguish the right of way as from such time as may be specified in the order, not being earlier than—

  1. (i) the making of the order,
  2. (ii) if in the exercise of any power conferred by this Act or by the agreement to acquire the land the acquiring authority enters on the land before the acquisition thereof is completed, the date on which the authority enters on the land,
  3. (iii) if the acquiring authority does not enter on the land in the exercise of any such power as aforesaid, the date on which the acquisition of the land is completed:

THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, in subsection (1) (ii), to leave out "the agreement to acquire the land" and insert "agreement." The noble and learned Lord said: This Amendment is necessary because it is not uncommon for acquiring authorities to agree with the persons interested that the former may take possession of the land after notice to treat has been served, notwithstanding that the actual purchase has not been completed and the land has not been conveyed to the authority. The closing of a footpath or bridle path should clearly not be made to operate before possession is taken by the acquiring authority. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 5, line 15, leave out ("the agreement to acquire the land") and insert ("agreement").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

This is consequential on an Amendment I have already moved.

Amendment moved— Page 5, line 16, leave out ("enters on") and insert ("takes possession of").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

The next Amendment is consequential.

Amendment moved— Page 5, line 18, leave out ("enters on") and insert ("takes possession of").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

The next Amendment is also consequential.

Amendment moved— Page 5, line 19, leave out ("enter on") and insert ("take possession of").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 4 to 6 agreed to.

4.24 p.m.

LORD PAKENHAM moved to insert the following new clause after Clause 6:

Application of S. 1 to Local Acts.

"—(1) Where, apart from this Act, power to authorize a local authority to purchase land compulsorily is conferred by any enactment contained in a local Act and in force immediately before the commencement of this Act, the Minister of Health may by order made on the application of the local authority direct that Section one of this Act shall apply in relation to the enactment as if the enactment were contained in a public general Act:

Provided that nothing in an order under this section shall empower the authorization of a compulsory purchase in accordance with the provisions of Section two of this Act.

(2) Where an order has come into operation under this section the last foregoing section shall apply as if the local Act to which the order relates were specified in the Fourth Schedule to this Act, and as if there were specified in the second column of that Schedule such amendments of the local Act as may be provided for in the order, being amendments appearing to the Minister to be consequential on the making of the order.

(3) Any order under this section made after the expiration of two years from the commencement of this Act shall be subject to special parliamentary procedure."

The noble Lord said: I beg to move the Amendment standing in the name of the Lord Chancellor. This Amendment, which would become Clause 7 of the Bill, requires a word or two of explanation. You will recall that the main object of Clause I of the Bill is to simplify and harmonize the various procedures by which local authorities are at present empowered to acquire land compulsorily under various public general Acts. Those Acts are set out in the Fourth Schedule. Noble Lords will be aware that local authorities also possess in some cases powers of compulsory acquisition under local Acts, and, to put it quite briefly, the object of this clause is to assimilate the procedure under local Acts to the procedure under public general Acts.

I would, particularly call the attention of your Lordships to the proviso at the end of the first subsection. There it is laid down for all the world to see—which I know will reassure this House—that nothing under this clause shall authorize the use of the Clause 2 procedure, which some regard with a certain amount of anxiety. That does not come in at all in this case, but it simply assimilates the procedure of which local authorities will make use when their powers are derived from local Acts, to the procedure which they will employ when their powers are derived from public general Acts. I do not know if there are any detailed points noble Lords would like to raise, but perhaps I have said enough to explain the main purpose to the Committee.

Amendment moved— Page 7, line 42, at end insert the said new clause.—(Lord Pakenham.)

LORD LLEWELLIN

So far as I am concerned, I have no objection whatever to this new clause. I think it is another useful piece of consolidation and should therefore be welcomed in this measure, particularly so because of the proviso to which the noble Lord has already drawn our attention.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 7 [Interpretation]:

4.26 p.m.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

The next Amendment is a mere drafting Amendment which adds the word "also".

Amendment moved— Page 8, line 37, after ("includes") insert ("also").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 7, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 8 [Provisions as to Scotland]:

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

This also is a drafting Amendment, which is required by the Scottish draftsmen who are not quite satisfied with the English phraseology. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 9, line 29, leave out from ("For") to ("references") in line 33.—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

The next Amendment became necessary because on the Report stage in another place a reference to the "appropriate Minister" was inserted. That being so, you have to have this Amendment and we leave out subsection (13) on page 11 This also is drafting. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 10, line 15, after ("expression") insert ("'appropriate Minister' means in relation to the undertaking of the North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Board, the Secretary of State; the expression").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

The next Amendment, too, is a drafting Amendment required by the Scottish draftsmen.

Amendment moved— Page 10, line 47, at end, insert ("(8) Subsection (2) of Section three of this Act shall have effect as if for the words '(that is to say, the Council specified in subsection (1) of Section two of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1932)' there were substituted the words 'within the meaning of the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act, 1945'").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to leave out subsection (13). The noble and learned Lord said: This is consequential.

Amendment moved— Page 11 line 36, leave out subsection (13).—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 8, as amended, agreed to.

Remaining clause agreed to.

First Schedule: