§ Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
§ Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Earl of Listowel.)
§ On Question, Motion agreed to.
§ House in Committee accordingly:
§ [The LORD STANMORE in the Chair.]
§ Clause 1 agreed to.
§ Clause 2:
§ Division of a single school into two or more schools.
§ (5) Subsection (4) of Section fifteen of the principal Act (which relates to the circumstances in which an order directing that a 630 school is to be an aided school is to be revoked) shall have effect as if the references therein to an order included references to a direction having effect under ibis section.
§ 4.33 p.m.
§ THE EARL OF LISTOWELhad given Notice of two Amendments in subsection (5)—namely, after "order," where that word occurs for the second time, to insert "by virtue of which a school is an aided school"; and to substitute "that a school shall be an aided school" for "having effect." The noble Earl said: The first Amendment to this clause in my name is a drafting Amendment to clarify the word "order" in line 35. The Bishop of Truro has been good enough to tell me he means to speak on it and I am sure your Lordships will listen with interest to anything he may wish to say. I beg to move this Amendment.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 35, after ("order") insert ("by virtue of which a school is an aided school").—(The Earl of Listowel.)
THE LORD BISHOP OF TRUROSubsection (4) of Section 15 of the principal Act deals with cases in which the managers or governors of an aided school or special agreement school are unable or unwilling to carry out their obligations under the Act. It is greatly to be hoped that such cases will be rare. The Church of England, if I may speak for the Church of England in particular, is very anxious to co-operate to the full in the new educational development throughout the country. But we are conscious of great financial strain at the present time, and we see no prospects of that being lightened in the near future. Our supporters find it difficult to increase their contributions with taxation at its present level, and it is too much to hope that any substantial relief will come from another place this afternoon. And there is so much to do with Church money. So many of our benefices have large unmanageable houses and inadequate incomes, and very often, under the operation of the Tithe Act, income is seriously decreased, even now. I have one important country living to be filled, and the income has gone down automatically by £98. It was not too much before.
Then we really must look to the Minister of Education to maintain a sympathetic a generous attitude, as 631 we do our best to tackle the new problems as they occur one by one. Perhaps I may be allowed to say how much we welcome the realistic approach to the question of the village school which is taken in Circular 90. I think it will be generally welcomed by all who are concerned with village life. The Circular lays down that village schools should be considered individually, on their merits, and, further, that where necessary the Minister will be prepared to consider some modification in the standards of accommodation set out in the Third Schedule regarding building regulations. No one, of course, would wish school buildings to be left in a condition that would endanger the health of the pupils, but various modifications might be allowed, as regards cubic space and so on, in certain instances. We therefore very greatly welcome the realistic approach of that Circular, and although this Amendment, as I am well aware, only concerns drafting, I think your Lordships would not object to my just raising these points. These measures, this Bill and the principal Act, give the Minister very great powers. No doubt it tends to efficiency to have executive powers concentrated in this way. All may be well if the Minister continues to act with sympathetic understanding of the considerable difficulties of the voluntary bodies which are genuinely making great efforts to co-operate.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE EARL OF LISTOWELThe second Amendment does for the word "direction" what the first did for the word "order."
§
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 36, leave out ("having effect") and insert ("that a school shall be an aided school").ߞ(The Earl of Listowel.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clauses 3 to 9 agreed to.
§ Clause 10:
§ Qualification of teachers for membership of local authorities and their committees.
§
10.ߞ(1) For the proviso to Section ninety-four of the Local Government Act, 1933, there shall be substituted the following proviso:
Provided that a person shall not, by reason of his being a teacher or holding any other office in a school or college maintained by a local education authority, be dis
632
qualified for being a member of any committee or sub-committee of any local authority:
or for being a representative of a local authority on a joint committee appointed by agreement between the authority and other local authorities for any such purpose as aforesaid.
§ (2) Subsection (2) of Section fifty-nine of the Local Government Act, 1933, shall not operate so as to disqualify any person for being elected or being a member of the council of a county district by reason of his being a teacher or holding any other office in a school or college which is maintained by a local education authority.
§ 4.37 p.m.
§ THE EARL OF LISTOWEL moved, in subsection (1), in the substituted proviso, to leave out "or holding any other office in a school or college maintained" and insert "in, or being otherwise employed in, any school college or other educational institution maintained or assisted." The noble Earl said: We now come to the first Amendment of substance, which I am proposing. The object of this Amendment is to widen the scope of eligibility of people employed in educational activities for service on local authorities. The first subsection of Clause 10 as now drafted would not allow such employees of local authorities as youth wardens or youth organizers to be members of the education committee of the local authority that employs them or, of course, of any of its sub-committees. The inclusion of, the words proposed, "other educational institution", will cover youth centres or community centres, which cannot, of course, be described either as schools or colleges. But it would be rather absurd to make wardens and organizers, engaged authorities, eligible for this kind of public work without also admitting those employed in similar institutions merely receiving financial assistance from local education authorities. Accordingly, it is proposed to acid the words, "or assisted" after "maintained".
§
Amendment movedߞ
Page 5, line 28, leave out from ("teacher") to ("by") in line 29, and insert ("in, or
633
being otherwise employed in, any school college or other educational institution maintained or assisted").ߞ(The Earl of Listowel.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE EARL OF LISTOWELThe next Amendment, in subsection (2), really follows on the previous Amendment. Its object is to give a wider eligibility for service on local authorities. It is proposed that what is now provided for in subsection (1) of the clause shall apply also to membership of county district councils. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 1, leave out from ("teacher") to ("by") in line 2 and insert ("in, or being otherwise employed in, any school college or other educational institution maintained or assisted").ߞ(The Earl of Listowel.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 10, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 11 agreed to.
§ Clause 12:
§ Compensation for certain officers of county councils.
§ 12.ߞ(1) If in consequence of any alteration in the arrangements for discharging the functions of a county council relating to education, being an alteration attributable to the coming into force of the principal Act, any person who was, immediately before the commencement of Part II of that Act, an officer employed by that council suffers, at any time after the commencement of the said Part II, direct pecuniary loss by reason of the determination of his appointment or the diminution of his emoluments, he shall, unless provision for his compensation for that loss is made by or under any other enactment for the time being in force, be entitled to receive compensation from the county council under this section.
§ 4.41 p.m.
§ THE EARL OF LISTOWEL moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "If in consequence of any alteration in the arrangements for discharging the functions of a county council relating to education, being an alteration attributable to the coming into force of the principal Act" and insert "If as a result of any action taken by the council of a county in consequence of the fact that any of their functions relating to education are, or are to be, exercised in accordance with a scheme of divisional administration."
§ The noble Earl said: This Amendment is designed to tighten up the provisions relating to compensation. The object is to limit the right of officials to compensa- 634 tion in cases in which direct financial loss has been caused by the setting up of a divisional executive by the local education authority. The clause as now drafted might admit of other claims as well, and, therefore it needs to be qualified in this way. I beg to move.
§
Amendment movedߞ
Page 6, leave out from the beginning of line 33 to ("any") in line 36 and insert the said new words.ߞ(The Earl of Listowel.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE EARL OF LISTOWELThe next Amendment is consequential and follows on the preceding Amendment. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 37, leave out ("that") and insert ("the principal").—(The Earl of Listowel.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE EARL OF LISTOWELThis is a drafting Amendment to leave out of redundant worn the word "county." I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 44, leave out ("county").—(The Earl of Listowel).
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 12, as amended, agreed to.
§ Remaining clauses agreed to.
§ FIRST SCFIEDCLE.
§ MAINTENANCE OF VOLUNTARY SCHOOLS.
§ 2. Where under subsection (1) of Section sixteen of the principal Act the Minister has made an order authorizing the transfer to a new site of an aided school or a special agreement school, the duties of the managers or governors of the school; hall include the duty of defraying, with the assistance of any grant which may be made in accordance with Section one hundred and three of the principal Act, the expenses of providing any school buildings to be provided on the neat site, and accordinglyߞ
- (a) the Minister shall not direct that a school shall be an aided school or a special agreement school unless he is satisfied that the managers or governors of the school will be able and willing to defray any such expenses;
- (b) the duty of the local education authority to maintain an aided school or a special agreement school shall not include the duty of defraying any such expenses; and
- (c) if at any time the, managers or governors of an aided school or a special agreement school are unable or unwilling to carry oat their obligations under this para
635 graph, it shall be their duty to apply to the Minister for an order revoking the order by virtue of which the school is an aided school or a special agreement school, and upon such an application being made to him the Minister shall revoke the Order.
§ 4.45 p.m.
§ THE EARL OF PERTH moved, in subparagraph (c) of paragraph (2), after "paragraph," to insert "and desire that the school shall continue to be carried on as a voluntary school." The noble Earl said: Your Lordships will notice that I have two Amendments on the Paper, the first on the First Schedule and the other on the Second Schedule. If your Lordships will allow me, I will explain the reasons for the two Amendments together, as the second is really consequential on the first. Your Lordships will be aware that under the Act of 1944 the voluntary schools are of three kindsߞagreed schools, aided schools and controlled schools; but the principles which govern the controlled schools are not acceptable, as your Lordships may perhaps know from previous debates, to the denomination to which I have the honour to belong.
§
If you will look at sub-paragraph (c) in paragraph 2 of the Schedule, in respect of which I am proposing an Amendment, your Lordships will see that it reads as follows:
If at any time the managers or governors of an aided school or a special agreement school are unable or unwilling to carry out their obligations under this paragraph, it shall be their duty to apply to the Minister for an order revoking the order by virtue of which the school is an aided school or a special agreement school, and upon such an application being made to him the Minister shall revoke the order.
I call your Lordships' attention to the word "shall" occurring in both cases because we hold that, in respect of those cases, a definite mandate is laid on the Minister. She has no latitude or discretion. Supposing that such a case arises. We fear that if the managers or governors of a Roman Catholic aided or agreed school find that they cannot defray expensesߞand the expenses are likely indeed to be far higher than was estimated at the time of the 1944 Actߞthen the managers or the governors have to go to the Minister, and the Minister will be compelled to hold that, as the school cannot
636
be continued as an aided or agreed school, it must become a controlled school.
§ As I have said, that system of controlled schools is not acceptable to us. An Amendment was put forward in another place in order to remedy the difficulty, and the Parliamentary Secretary said that he did not consider that any such Amendment (which was a little different to the one I have put down) was necessary. But he gave a categorical assurance. I am not going to trouble your Lordships with the first part of the assurance, but with the second part. He said that the reason why it was unnecessary, the second reason, was that the provisions of Section 15 of the main Act as to the conversion of an aided or special agreement school into a controlled school under subsection (4) only apply if it is intended that the school shall continue to be carried on as a voluntary school of one sort or another.
§ We were very grateful for that assurance, but we did not feel it was quite sufficient by itself. Therefore I have put down these two Amendments to ensure that the interpretation given by the Parliamentary Secretary is actually embodied in the Bill. I very much hope, as that is a quotation from an assurance given, that the Government will see their way to accept it. Without it I am advised that there is, to say the least, a serious doubt about what may happen in the future. Although of course we have every confidence in the Minister, she cannot bind her successors simply by such an assurance. If the Amendment were accepted, we should feel fully safeguarded, because if the managers and governors of an agreed or aided school wish that such a school shall continue as a voluntary school, it can then be declared a controlled school by the Minister. If they do not wish it to be so continued as a voluntary school, then, then according to the 1944 Act, negotiations can take place with the local authorities, and the school either becomes a county school or is discontinued altogether. I beg to move.
§
Amendment movedߞ
Page 10, line 38, after ("paragraph") insert: ("and desire that the school shall continue to be carried on as a voluntary school") ߞ(The Earl of Perth.)
§ THE EARL OF LISTOWELI am very much obliged to the noble Earl for making one speech on both Amendments because it enables me to reply in the same way. The noble Earl has explained that this subsection of the First Schedule of the Bill provides for one of the things that may happen if the managers or governors of a voluntary school are unable to meet their financial obligations owing to the monetary difficulties with which they find themselves confronted. The noble Earl has quite correctly pointed out that the legal effect of the revocation of an order establishing an aided school is that it automatically becomes a controlled school. I appreciate the views of the denomination which the noble Earl represents in regard to, the conversion of a voluntary school into a controlled school, but there are two other courses which can be taken. Either notice can be given to the Minister by the managers or governors of their intention to discontinue and close down the school altogether or, alternatively, if it is thought that the school should carry on, but not as a controlled school, the school premises can be transferred to the local education authority for use as a county school. Now I hope that this explanation of the position, which I think offers two alternatives to the managers of an aided or special agreement school, does satisfy the noble Earl. So far as the actual words of his Amendment are concerned, I do not feel that they clarify the provisions laid down either in the First or Second Schedule, and as I am advised that they make no difference at all to the legal position, I hope that the noble Earl will be satisfied with my explanation.
THE EARL OF PERTHI am grateful to the noble Earl for the explanation, but I am still rather troubled about the effect of sub-paragraph (c) as it stands now. It is quite definite, surely, that if the managers and governors find that they cannot defray these payments they have to go to the Minister for him to make this order, and I cannot see that they have the alternative, therefore, of saying to the local authority: "We want to negotiate with you." They must go to the Minister. That is my real trouble. Can I have a definite assurance in this respect? I think the noble Earl sees the point that is troubling me.
§ THE EARL OF LISTOWELI am assured by my advisers that there are 638 these two alternatives which can be employed, if the managers are not satisfied about their school being converted into a controlled school. If the wording does not carry out the intention, I will have the point re-examined before the next stage of the Bill and let the noble Earl know what the experts think if the intention, which I think we both share, is not fully carried out.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ THE EARL OF LISTOWELMy next Amendment is a drafting Amendment.
§
Amendment movedߞ
Page 10, line 39, after the second ("order") insert ("or direction").—(The Earl of Listowel.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE EARL OF LISTOWELThe next Amendment is consequential.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 10, line 42, after ("order") insert ("or direction").ߞ(The Earl of Listowel.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ First Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
§ Second Schedule [Miscellaneous Amendments of Principal Act]:
§ THE EARL OF LISTOWEL moved to insert in Part II:
| "Section thirty-four | At the end of subsection (4) there shall be inserted the words "unless the parent makes suitable arrangements for the provision of such treatment for the child otherwise than by the authority." |
| In subsection (6), for the words "cease to provide" there shall be substituted the words "if they are providing"; and after the word "issued," where that word secondly occurs, there shall be inserted the words "shall cease to provide such treatment for the child"." |
§ The noble Earl said: The Minister is proposing this Amendment to meet the representations made by the noble Lord, Lord Holden. The noble Lord pointed out that the Bill might be interpreted as requiring a local education authority to provide special educational treatment for a child even if the child in question is already receiving suitably and satisfactory treatment, for example, from a tutor at home. In order to avoid any ambiguity 639 it is made clear in this Amendment that a local education authority is under no obligation to provide these facilities in cases where they are satisfied that the parents have arranged for the right treatment to be given. My right honourable friend is extremely obliged to the noble Lord for the trouble he has taken to put the matter right, and I hope he will accept this as an alternative to the Amendment standing in his name.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 16, line 54, at end, insert the said words.ߞ(The Earl of Listowel.)
§ LORD HOLDENI should like to thank the noble Earl for his Amendment and I hope it receives the support of your Lordships. There is now no need for me to move my Amendment which is the last on the list. Parents of children who are receiving special educational treatment should be in the same category as all other parents under the Bill.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Second Schedule, as amended, agreed to.