Lords Sitting of 26 November 1945

Preamble
The House met at four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers.
The Lord Monteagle of Brandon—Took the Oath.

INDIA (PROCLAMATIONS OF EMER- GENCY) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA AND BURMA (LORD PETHICKLAWRENCE): My Lords, the object of this Bill is to deal with a somewhat technical and complicated matter, and I think it will meet the convenience of your Lordships if I give a very brief description of its objects. Should any of your Lordships wish for any further explanation I will do my best to furnish it. The purpose of the Bill is to remove doubts as to the validity of certain emergency powers exercised by the Government of India during the war. In the Government of India Act, 1935, a rather unusual method was adopted for dividing those forms of legislation which ought to be carried at the Centre and those which belonged to the Provinces. Generally, I imagine, it is usual in such cases to specify
2
certain forms of legislation which should be dealt with either by the Central or by the Subordinate Legislatures, and having done that, to place all residuary objects of legislation with the other body. That was not done in the Government of India Act of 1935. What was done was to put into the Seventh Schedule of the Act two lists, one for the Central and one for the Provincial Legislatures, and as to any possible items that remained over after these two lists had been exhausted, to give the Governor-General powers to allocate them as he might subsequently desire, either to the Centre or the Provinces.
The Government of India Act, 1935, gave certain further powers to the Governor-General in the event of an emergency. By declaring an emergency he was entitled to act at the Centre on behalf of the Provincial Legislatures and to pass legislation at the Centre which would normally belong to the Provinces. It was under these powers that when the emergency broke out in 1939, the Governor-General produced the Defence of India Act and under that Act Rule 75A was made which gave the Government of India powers to requisition moveable property. The power that was given under this Rule was never called into question until recently. It was no doubt in the minds of people that it was a reasonable power that was required, and that it was in accordance with powers taken in this country. No one supposed that it was the intention to have lesser powers in India than were given in this country. A number of actions took place under these powers on the assumption that they were

3
correct, but recently the validity of these powers has been called into question. The ground on which the question has been raised is whether there was power to deal with matters that might not be held to be within either of the two lists, either for the Centre or for the Provincial Legislatures.
I ought to tell your Lordships that three cases have arisen in the Courts. In one of these the application on the ground of invalidity was upheld. In the other two cases the decision of the Government of India was sustained against the applications. They were all heard in different High Courts. In two of them appeals have been lodged which would, in the normal course, go to the Federal Court for final decision. It is to remedy that state of affairs that this Bill is introduced. It cannot be carried in India for reasons that I will explain if it is desired. I will only say for the present that it cannot be carried in India, but it has to be carried out by an Act of this Parliament. The main object of the Bill is to give the Governor-General the power to make the Rule for which everybody supposed that he had the power and upon which the Federal Court has not, so far, adjudicated.
It only remains for me to make one or two additional remarks. In the first place, there is no question that when moveable property was taken by the Government of India, under the alleged powers, compensation was duly paid for what was taken. It is also the case that it is not only the particular power for taking moveable property, which has already been dealt with and which might be called into question: it is conceivable that there are other powers in this Rule which might be called in question in the future. Therefore, it was absolutely essential that the doubt should be removed and this Bill proceeds to do it. I am quite aware that neither in this House nor in another place does retrospective legislation find any favour. It is a thing which has to be avoided as far as possible, but cases arise occasionally where it is essential and unavoidable that retrospective legislation should be carried. It is with that object that I am asking your Lordships to give a Second Reading to this Bill.
4
I should like to say one thing more before I sit down, and that relates to Clause 2 of the Bill. It was felt that every thing possible should be done to remove any hardship which might fall on a litigant who had won his case in the High Court and who had been deprived of opportunity of upholding the decision which he had obtained. Therefore, Clause 2 endeavours, as far as possible, to put him right in so far as costs and in so far as any costs he may have incurred due to his having assumed that the decision would be upheld when, in fact, it is overruled, as it were, by the proposals in this Bill. I beg to moved.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Pethick-Lawrence.)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

CIVIL DEFENCE (SUSPENSION OF POWERS) BILL.
4.11 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD AMMON: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Westwood, I beg to move the Second Reading of this Bill. As its title indicates, this Bill is introduced for suspending certain parts of the Civil Defence Act. It has already passed the other place with approbation—indeed, I might say with warm approbation, as Mr. Osbert Peake, speaking for the Opposition, said, "I can find nothing in the Bill to oppose." Therefore I imagine that it will not be necessary for me to make a very long speech in commending it to your Lordships. In addition to that, I should like to say that the representatives of the local authorities were informed and consulted, and the Bill seemed to meet with their general approval. The Bill, in fact, takes note of the present position and relieves local authorities of certain duties. The war is over; the Civil Defence Services and the Fire Guards have been disbanded, so that it is now necessary that these steps should be taken in order that there should be a certain measure of relief, about which I expect there will be no division of feeling on either side in your Lordships' House.

5
This Bill does not abolish the powers held by the Government, but it does take stock of the position without destroying the whole conception of Civil Defence. In that connexion I cannot do better than quote the words of the Home Secretary, in introducing this Bill in another place on November 5 last:
" So long as this country is liable to attack, the Government regard it as essential a duty to make adequate arrangements for the protection and rescue of the civil population, for the mitigation of the affects of air attack and for the restoration of industries and services after attack, as it is that the Fighting Services should be maintained for active defence of the country."
I might add that, though recognizing the need for Civil Defence, it would be unrealistic to continue the organization in its present form without first examining whether, in the light of experience of attacks of raiding far more severe than this country had to suffer, there could be mitigation of existing arrangements or present policy, and for that reason the Bill temporarily suspends the obligation of local authorities to submit to what were called air-raid precautions schemes, except as regards certain things. The derequisitioning of premises used for Civil Defence and the removal of shelters may be mentioned in this connexion, and the Government would wish to pay a tribute to the way in which so many local authorities, in the midst of their pre-occupation with housing and other matters, are making time to get on with the winding-up of war-time demands.
There is little more, I imagine, that I need say in commending this Bill to your Lordships. Your Lordships will recall that Civil Defence had to be extemporixed during the war. In view of possible needs of the future, many lessons have been learnt during the war, many things have been realized, and consideration has been given to needs that might be called for in any future eventuality. The Government intend to, study the conditions of Civil Defence in all other countries in order that we may take the necessary precautions as and when, and if, such a catastrophe as war should again descend upon the world, so, that we shall be prepared with a full knowledge of all that has happened before and con take adequate and necessary steps. There is only one other word to add, and that is that your Lordships, I am sure, would wish to express thanks to
6
the many thousands of men and women who took part in Civil Defence and to affirm our approval of the public spirit and patriotism of those who gave themselves without stint in. time of great need and danger in defence of us all. In view of the reception this Bill had in the other place, and the brief explanation I have given of it, I imagine that your Lordships would not desire me to go through it clause by clause, but I would do so if requested. I beg to move.
Moved, This this Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Ammon.)
4.17 p.m.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, we too, searched in another place to see if there was anything to which we could take exception in this Bill, but there was nothing. But I would not like this Bill to have its Second Reading without noble Lords on this side associating themselves with the tribute -to the Civil Defence personnel which the noble Lord, Lord Ammon, paid just now. The personnel have already had the official thanks, but no thanks can be too great, and there cannot be too many occasions on which we reiterate our gratitude to these people. When in years to come they have their grandchildren on their knees, and their grandchildren ask what they did in the war, these men will say that they served in Civil Defence, and they will find as much honour in the generations to come as any soldier or sailor. I was glad to hear the noble Lord say that the local authorities were taking energetic steps for the removal of war-time constructions in the way of shelters. Only recently we had, in this House, a debate on road traffic dangers. I am quite sure that if local authorities can be put to the work of removing some of these surplus street shelters, the Government will be doing a great deal to alleviate traffic dangers and traffic difficulties, which are increasing as the number of motor cars increase. We have no wish, on this side of the House, to do anything, except to thank the noble Lord, Lord Ammon, for the way in which he introduced this Bill, and we do not propose to press him to go through it clause by clause. We support the Second Reading.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, I can assure noble Lords that it is in no spirit of parochialism that I rise, but I would

7
like to ask whether Scottish local authorities were consulted equally with the English authorities.
LORD AMMON: I cannot answer that, but I would venture to say that they were. I can hardly imagine the English authorities being consulted without the Scottish authorities, or that this Bill would go through the other place without some indication that they had not been consulted, if that were in fact the case.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the whole House.

INSHORE FISHING INDUSTRY BILL.
4.19 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (THE EARL OF HUNTINGDON): My Lords, the object of this Bill is to help inshore fishermen, or other suitable people who wish to become inshore fishermen, especially those returning from the Services; so that the industry can he started again under favourable conditions. This Bill, with certain verbal modifications, is a replica of the Bill introduced by the late Government into the last Parliament and on that account I hope it will commend itself to the members of all Parties. The proposals are modest enough; and are confined to inshore fishermen engaged in the catching of fish and shell fish, excluding herrings. In the summer of last year a somewhat similar Bill was introduced by the then Secretary of State for Scotland, with the support of the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries, to provide financial assistance for herring fishermen and to equip the Herring Industry Board, which was in existence before the war, with fuller powers so as to enable that industry to get under way as soon as the exigencies of the war permitted. The measure for which I ask a Second Reading is intended as a complement to the other measure and will enable the inshore fishermen to whom it applies, on their return from the Forces back into the industry, to obtain such facilities as they need to re-equip themselves for their post-war tasks.
8
There are three good reasons why this Bill should pass speedily through your Lordships' House and become law. In the first place I need hardly remind your Lordships of the gallant services of these fishermen during the war. Those who were not serving in the Navy, the Mercantile Marine or with any of the Services carried on in a magnificent way. Although subjected to severe restrictions as regards fishing grounds and the times during which they could fish, they have carried on their occupation of fishing in face of all dangers and in face of all risks of mines, of enemy attack from the air and from surface craft, and have made a tremendous contribution to the nation's food supplies. Before the war these fishermen, who number some 17,000, were not doing too well. During the war many of the boats have been laid up and will want complete overhaul—in many cases complete renewal. New equipment will also have to be provided. His Majesty's Government feel that, without some financial assistance from the State, the inshore fishermen will not be able to face this heavy expenditure.
Secondly, I should like to remind your Lordships that in spite of the growth of air power and the development of atom bombs, this island must still rely on its Navy and its Mercantile Marine; and will still urgently need men brought up in the traditions of the seafaring life. You will all remember the heroic part these fishermen played in evacuating our troops in their little boats from Dunkirk. I hope that our fishermen will never again have to be put to such an ordeal, but I am sure we all realize the importance of maintaining a contented and numerous fishing population, with their intricate knowledge of local conditions and their stirring seafaring qualities. The third reason is that in the new conditions in which we find ourselves, with a world food shortage and with most of our foreign investments gone, we must depend to a great extent on food produced at home; and fish is a most valuable part of our diet. For those three reasons I hope your Lordships will consider this Bill favourably.
Now I may turn to the Bill itself, which is a very simple and modest Bill. Under Clause i the responsible Ministers seek authority for grants up to £500,000 and loans up to £800,000 for persons engaged in the inshore fishing industry or

9
desiring to engage therein, in particular those who have been previously so engaged and persons who have served whole-time in the Armed Forces. This assistance may be applied towards the acquisition of boats or equipment, or towards the improvement or reconditioning of boats or their equipment, or both. No grants may exceed one-third of the price of the boat or the equipment or one-third of the cost of any improvement or reconditioning.
The general intention is that an applicant who needs a grant as well as a loan will be expected to find 10 per cent. of the cost himself; 33⅓ per cent. of the cost can be by way of grant and the balance, 56⅔ per cent. by way of loan. On the other hand, if an applicant does not need a grant, he may get a bigger loan than he otherwise would. The grants may be made over a five-year period but under Clause 2 there is to be a possibility of extending it by Order for up to two years. All this, I may remind your Lordships, is in line with the Herring Act of 1944. Clause 3 contains certain definitions. "Inshore fishing industry" means the business of catching and landing in Great Britain of fish, including shell fish found in the sea, by means of boats not exceeding seventy feet in length and not exceeding fifty tons gross tonnage. There is a proviso that no assistance shall be given under this Bill in respect of any boat or equipment which is mainly used or intended for use for the purpose of herring fishing.
I hope that your Lordships will give approval to this Bill in all its stages with a minimum of delay. It is of the utmost importance that demobilized fishermen should find these facilities awaiting them on their return to civil life. They will then be put in more or less the same position as the herring fishermen, for whom financial facilities have already been provided by the Herring Industry Act of 1944 and its predecessors. I beg to move that the Bill be read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Earl of Huntingdon.)
4.28 p.m.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, we on this side of the House agree with the noble Earl who introduced this Bill that it is a good measure and, as
10
the noble Earl said, it is helping a most gallant band of men. I would associate noble Lords on this side of the House with what the noble Earl has said concerning the gallantry of these men and the national services they performed during the war. I had the honour for sixteen years, when was a member of another place, of representing a constituency which embraced many of these inshore fishermen, and I know what splendid work the men of the East coast of Kent did. Not only did they provide in war men for the Mercantile Services, but during peace-time they manned the lifeboats. Many a man owes his life to the Margate and the Ramsgate Lifeboats that used to go out in appalling weather to the Goodwin Sands and save lives, with no other reward than the satisfaction of having done a job well and properly.
This Bill, good as it is, is only part of a pattern—the whole pattern for the resuscitation of our sea fishermen—and whereas this Bill provides for financial grants for the obtaining of boats and equipment, such financial help is of no avail unless also the noble Earl's Depart-merit can obtain from the Board of Trade and the Supply Departments the necessary priority to enable the equipment to be obtained for which the money is going to be voted. I will not press the noble Earl now 'for particular assurances on that point, but I would be glad if he would make a note in order that we, on this side of the House, in supporting this measure, can feel assured that together with the financial grants will go a measure of priority in the supply of boats, boat equipment, netting and other inshore fishing requirements, which will enable these men, directly they get the grants, to have the full advantage which it is intended shall come to them.
The other point I would touch on for one moment is the need for the protection of our spawning beds from depth charges and bombs used in practice naval and air operations if our stock of inshore sea fish is to be revived. Those noble Lords who take an interest in these matters will know that this year has been a phenomenally bad one for fresh water fish running into the rivers from sea water. I refer particularly to salmon and to sea-trout. There have been many arguments as to the cause of this shortage around our

11
islands. There is a tenable theory, which is subscribed to by many experts—namely, that one of the causes is the constant releasing of depth charges and bombs within a few miles of the shore. That is necessary in war-time, but I hope the noble Lord's Department will take up with the Service Departments the question of the need for conducting operations of that character, required to be performed in peace time, well out to sea so as to save the inshore fish from those dangers. I sincerely trust that in conjunction with this Bill there will be a review by the sister Department of the noble Lord's Department, the Ministry of Food, in order to see that the extra fish obtained by the inshore fishermen will go to the housewives in every part of the country in increasing quantities and rather fresher in condition than is often the case at the present time.
4.32 p.m.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, I should like to join with my noble friend in saying that I am quite confident that inshore fishermen will be grateful to His Majesty's Government for this Bill. I am the owner of a boat myself, I have been with fishermen, and. I know I can speak for them. There are one or two question. which occur to me. Half a million pounds. is to be devoted to this purpose. It sounds rather, when that is said, as if it will be a case of first come, first served. I should like to remind the noble Lord that the Admiralty have not yet released all the boats they have taken from the fishing fleet, and it stands to reason that it is the most useful boat they will be inclined to release last. Boats are taken for survey strictly in rotation as they arrive in home ports. The queue system prevails amongst boats as well as amongst human beings to-day! I should like some assurance that this will not be a case of first come, first served, and that the boats which may be released later and the men connected with them (who may have been released and are waiting for their boats) will receive due consideration.
Then the noble Lord talked about one-third of the cost of a boat. That is rather ambiguous. Does that refer to the valuation in 1939? A boat will cost £5,000 to-day which, in 1939, cost £2,100 or something like that. That is a point on which we ought to have some informa
12
tion. I will not reinforce what my noble friend has said about priority for equipment, but I should like to remind the noble Lord that a good deal of equipment comes from other countries. I believe that before the war most of our nets were made in France. That is a question which may require special consideration.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, before we part with this useful little Bill, which everyone supports, may I suggest to my noble friend Lord Huntingdon that the word "equipment" is unknown to fishermen? Their word is "gear." The use of the word does not matter in the Bill itself, but may I ask him to see that in any regulation or instructions issued to the fishing fleet the word "gear" is used, which fishermen will understand?
4.36 p.m.
THE EARL OF HUNTINGDON: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, for his kind reception of this Bill, and to assure him that the questions he raised will certainly be drawn to the attention of my right honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture and passed on to the Board of Trade. As to the questions asked by the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, perhaps I may answer his last question first. It will be one-third of the cost of the boat at present prices. In regard to the first-come-first-served point, we will naturally consider later applicants in the same way as early applicants. In fact, there is a provision in the Bill to extend the period during which this grant may be used in the event of people not being able to use their boats in the early years.
LORD SALTOUN: I was asking about the amounts. Will they be protected in that connexion?
THE EARL OF HUNTINGDON: Yes. The point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, will certainly receive our attention.
On Question, Bill read 2a; Committee negatived.

POLICE (OVERSEAS SERVICE) BILL.
4.38 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (LORD NATHAN): My Lords, this is a short

13
Bill, but rather technical. Within its limited scope, it is somewhat urgent and important. It relates to the maintenance of police forces overseas and also to those employed on police duties in territories outside this country at the invitation of foreign Governments. The immediate purpose of the Bill is to provide for such forces in the British occupied zones in Germany and in Austria, and also for the Police Mission now in Greece at the invitation of the Greek Government. Your Lordships will be aware that law and order have hitherto been maintained in the British zone in Germany by the British Army of Occupation. They have performed very valuable work in that respect; it is work to which perhaps not very great public attention has been paid, but it is worthy of the greatest commendation. It is felt, however, that the time has now come when we must look forward to the creation of an adequate civilian police force.
With that object in view, it is necessary that measures should be brought into operation whereunder the German police forces in the municipal areas of Germany may be purged and denazified in personnel, methods and outlook, and may be reconstructed and reconstituted so as to be able to function in the British zone in Germany with, we hope, very much the same outlook and by very much the same methods as those which have been perfected over a very long period of years in this country. Consequently, police forces are required in Germany not so much for the purpose of actually performing the duties as of ensuring that the duties are performed, and for creating and instructing a police force drawn from German civilians. So far as the British zone in Germany is concerned, the establishment of the force is, I think, 815. In Austria, where the problem is of a somewhat different nature, and a good deal easier, there is a very small group of eleven as the establishment; and in the mission to Greece there are about fifty. The denazification of the German police forces, and the constitution of new police forces in municipal areas with a modern and, as we hope, British outlook and method, will be undertaken by the force there under the command of Colonel G. H. Holland, who is one of His Majesty's Inspectors of Constabulary for England and Wales. The small group in Austria, with a headquarter establish-
14
ment of only eleven persons, is headed by Mr. J. H Nott-Bower, an Assistant Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police. The Police Mission which is in Greece at the invitation of the Greek Government is under the Command of Lieut.-Colonel Sir Charles Wickham, Inspector-General of the Royal Ulster Constabulary.
Putting it shortly, the object of this Bill is to provide for pay, pensions, discipline and in general the maintenance of these forces. The Bill is drawn in general terms, and it may be that at some latter date it may apply over a wider range than that to which I have referred. The clauses of the Bill are of a somewhat technical character. I am entirely at the service of your Lordships, and will naturally go through them it you so desire, but I think that f can put the matter briefly by saying that so far as concerns those who are drawn from police forces in England and Wales, regulations will be made whereunder they will be put in exactly the same position as if their service was maintained in any police force to which they belonged before in England and Wales. They will be entitled to reinstatement, and for the purposes of pension their service overseas will be taken into account. The regulations as to discipline will be based upon the Police Regulations already in force, made by the Home Secretary, so far as England and Wales are concerned. The regulations will be submitted to your Lordships' House as well as to another place, and will be subject to a negative Resolution.
While it is to be expected that the majority of those in these forces will be drawn from police forces in this country, there are others who may come from -the Colonies, and some may come from Northern Ireland. It is expected that the Northern Ireland Government will make arrangements similar to those which I am outlining to your Lordships, and provision will be made by the regulations to which I have referred for their discipline and their obligations and rights, and for their pensions and maintenance, along the same lines as in the case of those drawn from the British police forces. I ought perhaps to mention, and your Lordships will be interested to know, that all those who serve in these forces are volunteers. As I have said, I am very ready to go through the clauses of the Bill in detail

15
if that is desired. I beg to move that the Bill be read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.— (Lord Nathan.)
4.43 p.m.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, for the third time to-day we find ourselves in general agreement with the Government, and noble Lords on this side of the House wish to give their general support to this small measure. There is, however, one point on which I should like information from the noble Lord. He said in the course of his remarks that this Bill was widely drawn. Oppositions are always suspicious of Bills which are widely drawn. My suspicions were not allayed when the noble Lord said that it was widely drawn because it might apply over a wider field at some future date. I am sure that there is some innocent interpretation of that remark, but I think that we are entitled to ask the noble Lord for it.
LORD NATHAN: My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Lord. The explanation of the phrase, to which he was not unnaturally inclined to give a somewhat sinister interpretation, is really very simple. Just as there has been a Police Mission sent to Greece at the invitation of the Greek Government, so it is possible—who can say?—that some other Governments might ask us to afford facili-
16
ties by sending a Police Mission to their countries. The Bill is sufficiently wide to cover that, and thus avoid the necessity of introducing in each instance a new Bill.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

GLOUCESTER CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments; the said Amendments considered and agreed to.
REIGATE CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments; the said Amendments considered and agreed to.

HUDDERSFIELD GAS ORDER, 1945.
Special Order proposed to be made on the application of the mayor, aldermen and burgesses of the Borough of Huddersfield:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and referred to the Special Orders Committee.
House adjourned at a quarter before five o'clock.