HL Deb 12 December 1945 vol 138 cc621-40

3.48 p.m.

THE DUKE OF MONTROSE had given Notice that he would ask whether His Majesty's Government can now give any information regarding the promised report of the Electro-Acoustics Committee on their research into the possibility of producing a national standard aural aid for deafened people, and as to the establishment of clinics for the examination of aural aids; and move for Papers.

The noble Duke said: My Lords, in moving the Motion which stands in my name, I think it would perhaps be appropriate to remind your Lordships that last March I had a Motion on the Paper dealing with aural aids and the placing of clinics in different parts of the country. At that time the noble Viscount, who replied on behalf of the Government, drew attention to the fact that a special Committee, called the Acoustics Committee, had been appointed by the Medical Research Council and was at that time sitting. On being pressed the noble Viscount said he anticipated some report, possibly an interim report, of the work which that Committee had achieved would be made towards the close of this year. We are now at the end of the year, but no report, interim or otherwise, is forthcoming. That Committee has been sitting for over a year making a scientific investigation into whether a more perfect aid can be supplied than exists to-day. Surely some progress must have been made at the end of a whole year's research. The object of the Motion is to try and elicit from the Government whether any, and if so what, progress has been made. Everybody is anxious for the best aid available to-day. They always say that the mills of God grind slowly but they grind exceeding small. It seems to me that the mills of the Medical Research Council grind small, but even more slowly than the mills of. God. We should like to have some more pressure put on.

Another point concerns the clinics. I suggested on the last occasion that clinics should be established all over this country, and particularly in every great city, but my idea was not very strongly supported by the Government of that day. I am glad to see the noble Viscount, Lord Cranborne, present. He was Leader of the House at that time, and he said that my suggestion of clinics was absurd. I think that perhaps he misunderstood my idea, and thought that these clinics were purely for ex-Service men. That would be absurd, but my idea was that these clinics should be established all over the country as places where people could have their hearing properly tested and aids applied as the result of an impartial examination.

I see that a Government representative said last March that this Committee had nothing to do with the supply of aural aids. The Committee might produce the most perfect aid on earth, but had nothing to do with the supply or with getting them over to the people. That was very disappointing, because it must be obvious that it is no use inventing the most perfect aid on earth and then doing nothing with it. I should like to ask for some information about the National Medical Service, about which we hear a great deal. Has anything been done or thought of in connexion with this Service for supplying aural aids to the people? Surely the Government are not going to leave it to an unholy scramble to take what results from the work of the Committee and ensure its supply? There must be some orderly system for getting these aids to the people. We should like to know whether anything is being done to organize the supply of the best aural aids available.

What is more, we should like to know, if this Committee discovers the best aural aid in Great Britain or in the world, at what price the Government will supply it in a National Medical Service to the people. The price of aids to-day is terrific. Twelve years ago it was possible to buy good British aids for £10 to £12. To-day those aids cost anything up to £50, and you cannot buy a good aid on the market in this country for less than £25. How can a working man afford to pay £25? But to a working man who has to keep his job and keep his home it is very important to have one of these aids. At present to be deaf is a luxury of the rich and the ruination of the poor. Is this proposed National Medical Service going to do anything to supply aids at a reasonable price to all people, rich and poor alike? If so, their price ought not to exceed £5 to £8, and not be £25 to £50.

In Britain to-day, as I have said, you cannot get one of these aids under £25, but I have a very much smaller one from America which is only half the price of the British aid and every bit as good. Why cannot we get them in this country? It is because of the difficulties of the dollar exchange, of getting import licences, and of high Customs Duties. I know a great deal about America and the Americans. Whenever I have spoken to them they have said that so far as artificial eyes, artificial limbs and hearing aids are concerned, we should have free exchange between Britain and America, without any restriction, not looking on it as a commercial matter but as a means of repairing the ravages of war. I am confident that if that proposal is put up by the Government to America it will be sympathetically entertained. That is the object of my Motion, and I beg to move for Papers.

3.57 p.m.

VISCOUNT CECIL OF CHELWOOD

My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend for bringing this Motion before the House. I do not think that any of the official world have any conception of the importance of this question. It is a question which affects some people much more than some of the more blatant proposals (if I may call them so) of the present Government. My noble friend began by a reference to the debate of last March, and he mentioned the appointment of a Committee to deal with acous- tic aids. I am always afraid when a Government appoints Committees. I understand that in France it is the recognized method of getting rid of a disagreeable question, and it has sometimes happened in this country too. I hope that that is not the intention in this case, because polite burial is not the proper way of dealing with this question.

The net result of our debate last March —I do not think that I am exaggerating, and I speak in the presence of the noble Viscount who was then leading the House, and who took part in the debate—was something like an acceptance by the Government of an obligation to protect and assist the deaf. That is the central proposition that I want to press very much on the Government in this matter. For some reason or other, the ears of the human being are treated entirely differently by our health administration from the eyes, and even the teeth. It is recognized that the Government are under an obligation to deal with the eyes and the teeth of all the population of the country. As the noble Lords on the Front Bench know very well, there is a medical inspection made in elementary schools now which is particularly directed to questions of eyesight and of defective teeth, and wherever it is found that something requires to be done it is done at the cost of the Government as a measure of public health which is of advantage to the whole community, and not only to the people who are treated. I see no reason in the world why deafness, which is at least as great a handicap as blindness, should not be treated in precisely the same way as blindness and disease of the teeth.

I think that that general proposition ought to be accepted by the Government, whatever else they say in the debate this afternoon, because it seems to me clearly true; and a Government who have come before the country with great success on the broad principle of setting right injustices committed against the poorer classes should feel more than ever bound to put an end to this particular injustice. In the course of that debate, in March last, three main propositions were, if I remember rightly, put forward which embodied particular and special amendments that we desired apart from the general principle to which I have alluded. The first was that to which my noble friend has already referred—the establish- ment of clinics. I understood that the proposal of my noble friend on that occasion, which was accepted by the Government and by the House, was that there should be established in every centre of population a clinic—that is to say a place to which those afflicted with deafness could go to have themselves properly examined and to receive advice as to the best and most suitable instruments to obtain. Unfortunately, in most ordinary cases of deafness the trouble is quite incurable, but a very large number of machines have been invented which do give material assistance, although they do not provide a remedy. What I understood was suggested was that at these clinics there should be facilities for examination and advice, and that that was as far as the clinics would go. The question was riot then raised as to whether the Government ought not, where necessary, to provide these instruments, just as they provide such auxiliaries to health as special drugs, surgical apparatus and surgical operations. The suggestion has been made that they ought to do as much in the case of deafness.

With regard to the clinics, I do not know whether any have been established or not. But I was advised that there was a clinic in operation in connexion with the National Hospital in Queen's Square, and a friend of mine and I attended it in order to see how it operated. I have nothing but praise and gratitude for the doctors and others who were managing the proceedings. I do not know whether my noble friend is familiar with the place, but it seemed to me very much the kind of establishment which he had in his mind when he was recommending clinics. Both of us were given a very careful examination, and both of us were able to try a very considerable number of instruments, in fairly good scientific conditions, in order to see whether there was anything that could be done to help us so far as the machinery side of the clinic was concerned. As I say, that seemed to me the kind of thing which my noble friend had in view. But, of course, one clinic in Queen's Square is very poor provision even for London. You must have very much more than that. This particular of course, was established in connexion with the hospital, and therefore could be worked in only as part of the general business of that hospital. I hope that we shall receive full information to- day as to what has been and what is to be done with regard to this matter of establishing clinics.

My noble friend the Duke of Montrose has again pressed for cheap hearing aids. Everything he said on that subject is absolutely true. At present there is no such thing on the market as a cheap aid which is also really efficient. There are cheap aids which are practically valueless, but there is no such thing as one which is both efficient and inexpensive. By a "cheap aid" I mean much what my noble friend means—that is something in the neighbourhood of £5 to £8. I think it is a great scandal that prices should be as high as they are. There is no sufficient reason for the enormous sums which are asked. For a particular machine I myself was asked to pay £62. It was quite beyond my income, and it would be a fantastic figure, of course, from the point of view of anyone in the position of a day-labourer or anything of that kind. The normal price, I think my noble friend was right in saying, is about £20 to £25. It is a scandal that that should be so, and I believe that, if it is so, it is, the duty of the Government to see whether they cannot recommend, or manufacture by their own resources, some instrument which would be nearer the kind of thing that is wanted to comply with the needs of the poorer classes.

I need hardly stop to add that, of course, there is a difficulty when you have got your instrument because you have to keep it supplied with batteries. That is a matter of considerable expense, and I suggest also that that should be considered with a view to seeing what could be done to meet the difficulty. I was very glad that my noble friend referred to the American experience. I should very much like to ask the Government what is the state of the law in that respect. I have been given to understand—I do not assert it as a fact, because I do not know if it is—that there are very great Customs and other difficulties in the way of the importation of these machines. The duty and the other expenses, I am told, add very greatly to the cost of any American machine. This. I think, is a case in which there ought to be really complete free trade. It is a matter of providing scientific aid for sufferers, and there ought not to be any attempt to make money out of the misfortunes of any section of the inhabitants of this country. I know that considerable difficulties occur—perhaps owing to the war —in connexion with the supply of batteries and spare parts even for the machines that now exist. I shall be very grateful to the noble Lord who is going to reply on behalf of the Government for any information he can give us on that point.

Next I would refer to a great point which was made in the last debate with regard to the condition of fraud and near-fraud that exists in the selling of some of these so-called hearing aids. I had myself some experience of this which I think I detailed to the House last time, so I do not need to say anything now of the shocking kind of way in which an absolutely valueless article may be foisted upon the public at quite a considerable price. I would very much like to know if the Government have given any further consideration to this and have done anything with regard to formulating the kind of rules which it was suggested ought to be insisted upon. I think one of them that would be very valuable would make it clear that no one would be allowed to sell any of these machines without stating publicly what they are, what their principle is, what is the nature of their manufacture and all the rest of it. That is not very much to ask, it is certainly not more than the makers would have to set out if they made application for a patent. It is, indeed, not much more than all vendors of compound drugs disclose on the packages in which their products are sold. The same kind of publicity ought to be insisted upon for the sale of these instruments.

Secondly, I feel very strongly that it ought to be a statutory provision attaching to the sale of any of these instruments that the purchaser should be allowed to try them in his own home, for a certain period, on reasonable terms. All the best and most respectable purveyors of these instruments allow that. I think it ought to be insisted upon. The kind of firm which refuses it is that which has not got a good reputation in the trade. I ask my noble friend to say whether they have done anything towards the inception of that condition and, of course, the communication to the proposed purchasers of the real price and the real cost they would be put to if they decided to take the machine.

That is all I want to say to-day except this. I have become an almost fanatical believer in publicity. I think that the one essential safeguard, particularly in a democratic form of government, is publicity. I should like to see that in a great many of the proceedings of the Government, which no official ever likes. I should like to see it in connexion with the sale of these healing aids. I think the Government might go so far as to make an annual report on the whole subject similar to that which they already make on a great number of health subjects, saying what are the numbers of deaf people, what are their classes, what has been done with regard to the provision of instruments and clinics and protecting deaf people against frauds, and what, in point of fact to the best knowledge of the day, has been the result of the efforts which have been made to assist deaf people. I earnestly press for these things; I do not think that any of them are beyond in principle what is allowed in other cases of ill health and I think that we ought to have some very definite undertaking from the Government on this subject.

4.12 p.m.

VISCOUNT LEVERHULME

My Lords, I hesitated as to whether I should speak to the Motion placed before us by the noble Duke on this occasion, as I thought it might not, perhaps, be the best tactics for the same battery of hearing-aid users to open fire on the Government as went into action when the noble Duke raised this matter last March. I hesitated lest it should be imagined that only those who are themselves dependent on these aids to hearing have a real sympathy for, and understanding of, the problem. I am sure there is wide-felt sympathy in your Lordships' House; I am sure there is increasing sympathy amongst the general public. The noble Duke is President of the National Institute for the Deaf. I have the privilege to occupy a similar position in the North Regional Association for the Deaf and we both know how great is the zeal of those who are working for the deaf, quite regardless of whether their own hearing is impaired or not.

It is always difficult when debating this subject in public or in private to avoid making a comparison between blindness. and deafness. The noble Viscount, Lord Cecil, has referred to blindness and up to a point the analogy between the two afflictions is very close, but I think there does come a point when you can no longer precisely compare them because of the very nature of the difference between the waves of sound and the waves of light. Sound, let us not forget, diminishes with the square of the distance. That means that if you double the distance between yourself and the speaker you only hear him one quarter as well. That may, perhaps be only the theory of the matter; in actual practice there are many other factors, like the shape of the room, the materials of which the walls are made, the way sound echoes back from them and so on and so forth.

I would illustrate what I mean by reminding your Lordships of the hearing aids which were installed in our own Chamber. Originally the microphones were on the table, and those who were depending upon that hearing device could hear those speaking from the Front Benches extremely well; in fact so well that they frequently heard little asides which they were not intended to hear! Perhaps that is one of the small compensations which a hard-of-hearing person is entitled to enjoy, and I think there was, generally speaking, some regret when the microphones were lifted up higher and suspended from the roof. Whether that was done to avoid them hearing asides or to enable us the better to hear those speaking from the Back Benches I am not in a position to say. But I think that to refer to this does illustrate the special problem which defective hearing presents, and my reason for mentioning it is that I want to be sure that when these clinics are established and hearing aids prescribed those who have to use them will be given an opportunity of trying them not merely in the clinic itself but under the conditions in which they will have to use them in ordinary life.

That the Acoustics Committee has not been entirely inactive I have myself seen some evidence. I know that in the Department for Deaf Education in Manchester University, the Director of which I think is a member of that Committee—Mrs. Ewing—experiments are going on which have a bearing on this work. I know that because I went one day to Manchester to be one of those to be experi- mented upon, and I hasten to assure you that it was very interesting and entirely painless. This Government has given so many signs that it is a Government in a hurry. We may not be in agreement about all the things over which haste is being shown, but I think that in regard to the Motion before us to-day we can all agree on the need for pressing on with this work, and getting the hearing aids out and the clinics established. We can all agree that that should be done as speedily as possible.

4.18 p.m.

LORD WALKDEN

My Lords, I am sure we all admire the persistence and the vigour with which those who have especially interested themselves in this important subject have followed it up. I personally am glad to be here at the discussion to-day. I was not here in March but I read the debate of March 14 and was exceedingly interested in it. The position is a little simpler to-day because the Motion on the Paper is simpler. Last year it was restricted to the consideration of ex-Service men suffering from bad hearing. To-day it is open to the consideration of all classes of people, civilian as well as ex-Service. I am sure we all agree with the information that has already been brought out in this House, and which is obtainable elsewhere, that all persons afflicted with deafness should have our sympathy, that we should give them all the assistance we can and that everything should be done to modify the hardships they are suffering from. Equally, proper steps should be taken to protect them from fraud by quack people who provide cheap and useless instruments. Sometimes such instruments are cheap and sometimes, though not often, they are of little use, but very often they are useless and some measure should be taken in regard to that point.

This time we have the Motion falling into two parts. Various supplemental questions have been raised which I will endeavour to deal with, but I will take the first part of the Motion first. It deals with the anticipated report of the Electro-Acoustics Committee. It was anticipated that that report would be available before the end of this year—I agree that was the position in March last. The second point is as to the "establishment of clinics for examination of aural aids." That is all the Resolution says, but I presume it is intended that the clinics should also be used for the examination of patients and for the provision of treatment to enable them to recover from their trouble or, at any rate, to be aided to the maximum extent.

On the first question I want to give the House a little more information than it has had before. The Electro-Acoustics Committee is one of three Committees, special bodies set up by the Medical Research Committee—the head Committee—to assist in the particular work of discovering how sufferers from deafness may be helped by medical science. The second Committee, of which I do not think your Lordships have been informed before, has been deputed specially to inquire into the causes of deafness and the means of improving methods for testing the nature and extent of deafness, for instance, by the audiometer. That instrument is being considered and tested, and questions of its improvement are being undertaken by the first Committee. The matter of ascertaining causes is very important. It emerges that a great deal more deafness is caused—in fact nearly all of it is—by illness and diseases. After fevers people sometimes go deaf, and a small minority of cases arise from smashing noises, concussion, or industrial noises.

It is relatively like the trouble in industry, because, where men are affected in noisy industries, they can still go on with their work and there is no movement made to get industrial deafness scheduled as an industrial disease, hardship or obligation. If it were, I am sure there would be a move to get it scheduled and bring it under the Workmen's Compensation Acts, but that is not the case. We must accept it, broadly, that deafness is caused by certain peculiar diseases, and arises from certain illnesses, and in these circumstances measures for avoiding deafness are, of course, very important. This second Committee is exploring that aspect of the matter. The third Committee is considering special courses of education, and I think the noble Viscount, Lord Cecil, was very concerned about training and helping people to earn their livelihood. This Committee is so occupied. It wants to find out how to help in training adults and to aid their rehabilitation for fresh occupations where neces- sary; and it is considering the teaching of children who are born deaf and who are in most need of help. A man or a woman who goes deaf can learn lip reading, and can carry on with the knowledge of speech much better than a child who is born deaf and who has to be specially taught. I understand that whilst the medical inspection of school children does include eyesight questions and dental questions, where children are found to be deaf arrangements exist for deaf and dumb children to be specially educated. Whether the provision is adequate or not I cannot say, but it will be the duty of this third Committee to ascertain whether enough is being done in the educational sphere.

I will now come back to the Electro-Acoustics Committee which is concerned with the application of instruments to be used in the investigations of deafness and in its alleviation. It is really endeavouring to provide detailed specifications of standard instruments of high performance and relatively low costs. Its task is the provision of aids. Whether it will arrange for their production or not is an open question. This Committee wants to discover the best means. It is testing all the aids that exist, and that takes time. You have got to explore and discover where the errors are and how improvements can be made. I think we can wait hopefully—if we do have to wait a little longer—in view of the amazing discoveries in the matter of acoustics and telegraphy. During the war some marvellous discoveries have taken place, and it is to the people who made those fine instruments which were of such help to our Armed Forces in this terrible war that we shall have to look for the ultimate productions of an aid, simple and efficient and moderate in price. I had thought, perhaps from force of habit, that they might be made by the Government through the Ministry of Supply, but I do not want to press that suggestion for a moment.

We must find out the people capable of producing the finest sort of instrument for this kind of aid that can possibly be found, and that is the task of the Acoustics Committee. They have been very busy on that work and it will be appreciated, I am sure—I know your Lordships can sense that some disappointment is going to emerge from what I am saying, but I think I will have some comfort for you as well—that having these three strong Committees, manned by confident scientific experts, is a great thing and something new in dealing with the question of deafness, and that something great and good will emerge from their labours. I feel confident that helpful conclusions are going to be reached These three Committees are always in touch with the Medical Research Committee, and have made great progress in their work. They have not been standing or sitting still.

VISCOUNT SAMUEL

Will the noble Lord say when this Committee began its work?

LORD WALKDEN

I have not exact information, but, judging from the previous debate, it was early last year—getting on for two years, roughly. Of course, two years is not long when making scientific investigations of a very important kind. The human car is a marvellous production given us by the Almighty, and to produce something which will function as well as that is no light task. But I live in hopes because of the wonderful inventions that have taken place in our time. They have been working very hard on their tasks, but they have not yet leached the stage of recommendations. They are drafting their work as, of course, all committees do, as they go along, marshalling their facts, arid they are very near the stage of recommendations. They hope— and I can say this quite confidently—to reach their conclusions in the near future. I know that is not very positive, but, in a sense, it is. At no very distant date, as a great relative of the noble Viscount was fond of saying. I will say in the near future. I am authorized to say that.

When the Committees' findings are available, they will go to the supreme Medical Research Committee, and they, of course, have to transmit them for consideration to the various Government Departments concerned, who will have to take action, assuming action is authorized. Those Departments are the Ministry of Health, the Ministry of Labour, which is concerned with rehabilitation, and the Ministry of Pensions which, I am pleased to say, already provides all the aids available for ex-Service men. Ex-Service men and ex-Civil Defence workers, if injured during the course of their service for the country, get unstinted aid free of charge from the Government, through the Ministry of Pensions. We are very hopeful that when all this has been done the results will not only alleviate the sufferings of the deaf, but will assist them to become equal to other persons in their capacity for useful work and for happy citizenship. That is our aim, and that is what these three Committees are working for. That is what this Government desires to bring about—I can assure you most sincerely that that is the position.

So Much for the provision of mechanical aids. The second main point of the Motion deals with the provision of clinics for the treatment of deaf persons and for the examination of aural aids and their supply. That, of course, will be a part of the great National Medical Service which is being evolved. I am sure your Lordships will remember debating the great White Paper on the National Health Service which was put forward by the Coalition Government, I think a year ago last March. Many close negotiations have been proceeding with the various professional bodies concerned, and a large measure of agreement has been reached. Conclusions have been come to, and we may all hope for, and I am sure your Lordships will be quite keen in anticipating, the arrival of a Bill to give effect to the conclusions laid down in that great White Paper, with possibly some improvements—I think we might hope to have some improvements in view of the length of time taken. That really is the position, and the noble Duke, the noble Viscount, Lord Cecil, and the noble Viscount, Lord Leverhulme, may rest assured that all the points they have urged in connexion with this matter will be given the fullest possible consideration—anxious, earnest, sympathetic consideration—by all concerned. They are having consideration by the Committees and they will have just as much consideration by the Departments of State and by the Cabinet itself when it comes to deal with this matter.

There are one or two subsidiary points which were raised and which I will try to answer. The noble Duke complained about the time taken. I have tried to explain that time is really necessary. The process of trial and error of scientific instruments is not something you can do quickly. I am sure it will be appreciated that if a hasty conclusion were reached, and an apparatus were decided upon, put into mass production and supplied to the public, which proved to be less good than it might be, or deficient, faulty or bad, it would be generally condemned. Everybody would jump on it and the Government would have to take the responsibility. They want to produce a good instrument, the best that can be produced, and therefore time has to be taken. You cannot do anything without time. As to price, that depends upon the cost of production, and the cost of production depends upon how many you want. I do not think it has ever been ascertained how many deaf persons in the country really need these aids. Many are a little deaf, some are rather deaf, some are deaf, some are very deaf indeed, and some are stone deaf. But they do not all want these appliances. The number who did would have to be ascertained and on that would depend the price, because the larger the number the cheaper the instrument, as we all know.

The noble Viscount, Lord Cecil, referred to the fact that there are some clinics in existence for deaf people. That is perfectly true. There are some in London and some in the provinces and we find they are doing very satisfactory work. We agree that more are needed, but it must be part of the great plan to provide better facilities in medical aid for all people. That, of course, will be part of the grand plan. As to the present aids being too expensive and more supervision being required in the way in which they are marketed, that of course is very obvious, but at present it has not been found practicable to promote special legislation on that one point. It is hoped that we shall be able to safeguard the public generally by the great national arrangements that will be made to meet all public requirements.

The purchase tax has not been mentioned this time, but that, if still in operation, is a point I, for one, would gladly bear in mind, to see what can be done about it. The point about the importation of American aids and the matter of duties applied to them is a new one. We have not had it before and I have not had time to contact the Board of Trade to ascertain what may be possible in that regard. I can assure noble Lords, however, that that will be borne in mind, and I will take special steps to see what can be done to try and get free trade between the two countries so far as these special instruments are concerned. But I am not without hope that when our own scientists have done their best in this matter, and the producers have done their best with the British aids, the instruments we produce here will be so good that they will like to import some into America rather than our needing to take theirs. However, that is rather a hope the justification for which time alone will show.

With regard to the point about fraudulent trade, the Minister of Health has had widespread complaints about this matter. As to whether we can arrange for it to be stipulated and made legal that all these things must be openly declared and described in the ways suggested by Viscount Cecil, that is again a new point which will be fully considered. We will endeavour to meet his views on that matter. But we must bear in mind that once we get our great National Health Service into operation, with aid given to blind people, deaf people, and people with dental trouble, all free of charge, with the very best provision in the way of public institutions, clinics, infirmaries and so on, the quack will go. The quack and the fraud will be knocked out by the great new public service, and will disappear from our midst and be of no further trouble. Now I think I have dealt with all the points raised. If you feel I have not done so quite satisfactorily in regard to some of them, may I assure you that they will be given further consideration.

VISCOUNT CECIL OF CHELWOOD

Before my noble friend sits down, will he give me an answer to my proposal that the Ministry of Health or some other Department should make an anual report on this question of deafness? I do not think he has dealt with that.

LORD WALKDEN

I am strongly in favour of an annual report. Your Lordships may know that when a great Water Bill was before the other place I insisted that the Ministry should provide an annual report on water supply. I will certainly convey to the Ministry the suggestion that there should be a report on what has been done to aid the deaf. That should be publicized. Publicity is a splendid thing and from every point of view it ought to be used as far as possible.

I am glad that this matter has been raised once more, and I am glad to say that it is being actively dealt with by the Government. I have every reason to hope that very fine results will follow in our day and generation.

4.41 p.m.

VISCOUNT SAMUEL

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Leverhulme drew attention to the fact that the three speakers in this discussion who have pressed this case are members of this House who themselves have suffered, or are still suffering, from the affliction of deafness. I feel sure your Lordships will not wish it to be thought that they are the only ones who feel strongly about this matter and that one, at all events, who has not so suffered should voice the general feeling of this House that effective action in the matter should be taken by the Government. I listened to the debate last March and was greatly impressed by the case which was made out by my noble friend the Duke of Montrose and other speakers. One of the best features of our modern society is that it is very tender towards those citizens of the nation who suffer from sickness or from physical disability. A vast system of hospitals, medical services and special services has been evolved for those who suffer from particular infirmities. The blind have been mentioned. As an old Postmaster-General, I well remember receiving a deputation from the blind, as a consequence of which arrangements were made by the Post Office for the transmission of the very bulky volumes of Braille books at a nominal charge. Those arrangements have been a great blessing to the blind.

Now an appeal is made on behalf of the deaf, and particularly with regard to mechanical aids. Mechanical aids, due to the invention of the microphone, have worked a transformation in the lives of very many deaf people and have enabled them to take their full share in social intercourse, in business, in politics and in all the various activities of society. But these aids to the deaf are not easily available to all members of the community, and particularly not to the poorer members. Consequently, my noble friend the Duke of Montrose and those who support him have urged that active and effective measures should be taken to render these aids as easily accessible as, for example, wireless apparatus, which is a piece of mechanism of very much the same order. These aids are available now to the wealthy, but not to the poorer classes.

My noble friend Lord Walkden has done his best to 'make out a case in defence of the present situation, but I am bound to say I do not think he has been successful. That is not his own fault. We all know that he is not the responsible person and we all know that his sympathies are fully aroused and if it rested with him the matter would be quickly dealt with. He has to state the case as it is at present on the material which is provided for him. When we had the debate last March—I made a small intervention at that time—we said that the delay on the part of the Committee which had been dealing with this matter was excessive, that there seemed to be no sense of urgency and that they were ambling along without producing any effective results. The Duke of Montrose gave notice that he would raise the matter again at a later date. Nine months 'have elapsed, from March to December, and the answer of the Government to-day is very much as it was then—namely, that they are exploring every avenue, that three Committees are sitting and that three Ministries are involved. The three Committees apparently are to entitle the Government to a three-fold delay and the three Ministries may multiply that delay by three again.

While the Government are exploring every avenue and the Technical Committee on Electrical Aids is making the laborious investigation which the noble Lord said is quite essential to get the best results, in America the thing has been done. The noble Duke produced from his pocket a small apparatus, which apparently is easily obtainable in America, and which is half the size of those produced here, which costs half the sum and which is more efficient. While a deaf person in America can obtain that apparatus quite easily, the deaf person here has to await the exploration of every avenue by a technical committee which has already sat for two years, and whose recommendations are not to be put into effect until two other Committees have reported and until three Ministries have come to conclusions. This process may go on literally for years and meanwhile the situation, so far as deaf people are concerned, remains exactly as before.

One immediate step could be taken, and that is to render these American appliances at once available here. A simple clause in a Finance Bill to remove Customs Duties would be at once effective. No doubt questions of dollar exchange are involved, but the total amount is so minute in proportion to the financial transaction between this country and the United States that it would be invisible except to the most scrupulous statistician. The fact remains that apparently it is nobody's business to press this matter to a conclusion. Three Ministries are concerned and three Committees, under the Medical Research Council, are involved. I suggest that since somebody should take up this matter and should be determined to see it through, the House of Lords should do so.

I suggest that this House, which has already taken cognizance of it and which does carry some influence, should make it its business to see that this question is not neglected but pressed through to a conclusion. I suggest that we should say to the Government: "You must work to a time-table; it cannot be permitted that this procrastination should continue indefinitely." If I may make a suggestion to my noble friend the Duke of Montrose, it is that he should proceed with the pertinacity for which he is famous, that he should inform the Government that in three months from now he will put down another Motion and if no satisfactory reply is obtained he should press it to a Division. I, for one, would very gladly support him and I feel sure that many of your Lordships would be ready to do the same.

4.49 p.m.

THE DUKE OF MONTROSE

My Lords, I have listened very carefully to the answers and I must say I am disappointed in them. I had hoped that the noble Lord who replied to-day would tell us of some definite progress. He seemed, however, to be obsessed with the difficulties of the research that is being carried on. He said it would take some time to get the perfect aid; but there is no finality in research; there is no finality in mechanics or in medicine. Why go on waiting and waiting for the perfect aid? Why not put something out now? Hundreds, I might say thousands, are standing on tiptoe, waiting. All that comes forward is the difficulties of getting a perfect aid and research and all that. You will never get a perfect aid, so let us have something definite.

My noble friend Lord Samuel referred to three Committees. There are three Committees. There is one dealing with the medical side of deafness, the treatment of ears and of diseases of the ear. Another is dealing with the education of deaf children, and perhaps applying aids to hearing to deaf children in the schools. But what have either of those Committees got to do with the production of a good aural aid? Nothing at all. There is only one Committee which is concerned with that, and that is the Acoustics Committee, which deals with the actual aids themselves. There is going to be a National Medical Service, so let the Government give us an aid which is better than anything on the market to-day. Do not let them wait for the perfect one. Never mind about the other two Committees; get on with the work of the Acoustics Committee and give us as good an aid as possible. As the noble Lord said, the Committee was appointed in the autumn of 1944, well over a year ago. I shall take the advice of my noble friend Lord Samuel and wait for another three months. Then I shall put down a Motion and, if I do not get satisfaction, I shall press it to the end. I ask leave to withdraw my Motion.

Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.