§ 4.36 p.m.
§ LORD AILWYN had the following Notice on the Paper: To ask His Majesty's Government, whether they are aware—
- (1) That many thousands of acres of sugar beet in East Anglia are still in the ground with little prospect of being lifted this side of Christmas;
- (2) that delayed lifting can only result in serious depreciation in the quality of the crop;
- (3) that farmers who were directed to grow this sugar beet are faced with considerable financial loss unless immediate assistance to them is forthcoming;
- (4) that Italian prisoners of war are the main source of labour supplied to cope with this urgent matter, and that their output of work in this direction is altogether inadequate and shows no sign of improvement;
§ The noble Lord said: My Lords, in rising to ask the question which stands in my name on the Order Paper I should like to preface the few remarks which, with your Lordships' permission, I propose to make in amplification of the question by saying that I am in no way an interested party, nor can I lay the smallest claim to the distinction of being an agriculturist. My information, on which the question is based, has emerged from conversations with residents living on the spot close to my home, from personal interviews with some of the unfortunate farmers concerned, and from written testimony from other suffering farmers, all of which reinforces and confirms the substance of certain paragraphs which appeared in the public Press some ten days ago, describing the situation in this part of the country. The district to which I am referring lies in Suffolk and Cam- 1224 bridgeshire. Although I have been unable to check the exact figures, I understand that the area affected is something in the neighbourhood of 25,000 acres. I was assured on the 5th of November, when I was making my inquiries, that, owing to lack of suitable labour and conditions aggravated no doubt by the treacherous weather of the last few weeks, the probability was that some 60 per cent. to 80 per cent. of this vast crop of sugar beet would still be in the ground at Christmas.
§ There are three aspects, as I see it, of this deplorable situation. The first is the potential loss to the country of valuable food supplies. The second is the grave loss overhanging the farmers concerned. The third is the unsuitability of, and apparently the complete lack of control over, these Italian prisoners of war upon whose work mainly depends the lifting or the loss of the crop. As regards the first aspect—the loss to the country of food supplies—your Lordships will not be disposed to minimize in any way the gravity of such a situation. I believe it is true to say that, in this area, you get the highest yield of sugar beet to the acre in the country. It has been computed that the sugar rations for something like 3,000,000 persons are involved in this threatened peril. I was told moreover, at the time, that the authorities of certain of the factories were talking of closing down owing to lack of supplies.
§ With regard to the second aspect, the loss to farmers, I will quote only one case, that of a farmer, which was disclosed to me in a personal interview. He was directed to grow 275 acres of sugar beet on his 1,200-acre arable farm. The whole operation cost him £5,000. At the time of my interview with him, ten days ago, he saw no prospect of lifting 200 of those 275 acres. It seemed as if he would be involved in a loss of something like £4,000, and that some 30,000 sugar rations might go to waste. I feel I should tell your Lordships that I took the precaution last night of ringing up this farmer and he told me, much to my content, that the situation during the last week had slightly improved, and that he was not so gloomy about the prospect as he had been ten days earlier. The only comfort that this man received when he went to the district war agricultural executive committee was an observation by the chairman telling him to go home "and 1225 not to worry, as the war agricultural committee would get his beet up by March." Comment on such a remark is needless. Ribaldry of such a nature in the face of grave misfortune, and from such a source, is, to say the least of it, out of place; and I only hope that the noble Duke who is to reply will be able to say that such an attitude is not typical of war agricultural committees generally throughout the country.
§
Finally, there is the question of the Italian prisoners of war. On every hand one hears the same complaint, that they are absolutely and utterly useless. From among the mass of evidence which I have here I will select an extract from the letter from one farmer:
During the past three years, through an acute shortage of labour, I have endeavoured to make very extensive use of Italian prisoners but have been forced to the conclusion that, with rare individual exceptions, they are absolutely useless. The farmer himself is for all practical purposes in a hopeless position, firstly because he has no legal means at his disposal to force a prisoner to work, and secondly because any complaints he makes to the authorities concerned are either ignored or belittled. In either case the prisoner himself knows by experience that no action worth mentioning will be taken against him, and therefore he continues sitting still accordingly.
As two typical instances of the appalling slacking which takes place, I have had a gang of twelve prisoners who spent four days singling under one acre of beet, and six who took three weeks to top four acres. It appears in all seriousness that the recognized duties of a gang of twelve men are as follows: two men to cook, two to assist the cook, and eight to poach, pilfer or peruse the paper.
§ The efforts of sentries, interpreters and labour officers are all ignored. Meanwhile, the local beet factory runs at half capacity, while the Italians chew their ample cud and our men are pushed to the limit of endurance. That is the burden of the complaints which I have heard on all sides. In reply to questions in another place, the Minister of Agriculture admitted that he was not satisfied with the output of these Italian prisoners of war, but at the same time he admitted that he knew of no way of improving the situation. We are told that it is contrary to International Law and to the Geneva Convention to exercise compulsion or to resort to disciplinary action of any kind against prisoners of war. One can only hope that this same consideration and protection are afforded to our own prisoners of war in enemy countries. In any case, what is the use of drafting this type of labour to assist our harassed 1226 farmers in a really serious and urgent situation such as I have described?
§ Cannot something be done in the way of diverting, temporarily, labour from other industries in order to cope with this urgent situation and tide over this difficult period? Cannot volunteers be called for from our own Armed Forces in this country? In my own experience volunteers were continually being called for from naval establishments to help in the wheat harvest, and volunteers were forthcoming. Is there any reason why the same procedure should not be used for the sugar beet harvest? Is there any reason why greater use should not be made of German prisoners of war? I imagine that there are large numbers of them in the country to-day, and I understand that where they are working they work very well.
§ Before leaving this question of the Italian prisoners of war, I should like to say that I cannot help feeling that there may be something not altogether satisfactory about the way in which these Italians are supervised. I wonder whether a contributory cause to their ill behaviour may not be that the wrong type of man is put in charge of them. How are these gangers (as I think they are called) selected? Have they had any experience of taking charge of men? Is there a sufficiency of interpreters distributed amongst these prisoners of war to snake known requests and complaints? Is full use made of such people as pensioned petty officers from the Royal Navy and pensioned N.C.O.'s from the Army and Air Force to take charge of these men? I do not know; I can only throw this out as a suggestion, and I do not ask the noble Duke for a reply on this aspect of the case: I imagine that the War Office is the Department to which we must look for an answer in due course. I do feel, however, that some investigation along these lines might prove fruitful, and might bring to light reasons for the ridiculous ill behaviour of these Italians. In any case my submission is that immediate assistance is—or was ten days ago—necessary to avert this disastrous waste and loss to the country and to farmers alike. I sincerely hope and believe that I have put before your Lordships a fair and accurate picture, and I beg leave to ask the question standing in my name.
§ 4.47 p.m.
LORD STRABOLGIMy Lords, before the noble Duke replies, I should like to 1227 make a very short observation about that part of Lord Ailwyn's question which deals with Italian prisoners of war. I wish that my noble friend Lord Addison were here, because in the county of the agricultural committee of which he is chairman and in which he himself farms, he has had much better experience than apparently has been obtained in East Anglia. I have been about the country a good deal lately and have been making inquiries about the work of the Italian prisoners. I find that it varies a great deal. I have heard farmers say that they are useless, and I have heard other, and I am glad to say more, farmers say that they have done excellent work. It seems to me that a good deal depends, as the noble Lord has said, on who is in charge. I have usually found that where the Italian prisoners have given satisfaction, they have had a good sergeant who has been given, no doubt, some extra privileges to act as foreman or ganger. The work which they do under him is good.
I understand that a good deal also depends on the sort of attitude which the local people adopt towards them. If the local people treat them as Ishmaelites or war criminals, or anything of that kind, and ostracize them, they become very disheartened. Men from the South of Italy in particular are sensitive and temperamental and may lose heart and not work. I put a question some little time ago to the Government which was answered by my noble friend Lord Croft, asking about the general work that these men had done under contractors. Of course the contractor cannot afford to employ men who do not work. The contractors have found out how to make these men work and they do it. The answer I got from the noble Lord on behalf of the Government was that the work they had done of national importance had been valuable, and I know my noble friend will stick to that. But on isolated farms, of course, the problem is much more difficult.
It comes down, I think, to this: it is partly a question of the man in charge and partly one of the general attitude of the people, employers, neighbours and so on, to the men themselves. I am speaking of those who are collaborationists now; I do not mean the Fascists; the 80 per cent. who collaborate and are prepared to do anything: if they are given a little sympathy and encouragement, I 1228 think the reward from these men will be very ample indeed. After all, we have now diplomatic relations with Italy. She ranks as an Ally; Italian warships are sailing with the Royal Navy; Italian divisions are fighting on the front with our own Eighth and Fifth Armies; and I do not think it is too much to ask that these men who are trying to collaborate and to help should be given a little encouragement.
I am sorry to dwell on this matter, but I spoke yesterday, when I saw this question of my noble friend Lord Ailwyn's on the Paper, with a gentleman in London of Italian descent, who has taken a great interest in this matter, and I think he feels, too, that that is quite right. He is a very loyal subject of this country, but he feels for his former compatriots. He has gone into this matter deeply. He is a considerable employer of labour, and he says: "I could guarantee that if I had charge of those men I would get that acreage cleared in record time. It is simply a matter of how they are treated and how they are handled." I hope therefore that the result of my noble friend's question will be that the Ministry of Agriculture and the executive officers will look a little more closely into the conditions under which these men work, particularly with regard to those in charge of them and what is the system of seeing that they do an honest day's work in return for the small amount of money and the meals which they receive.
§ 4.53 p.m.
§ THE EARL OF STAIRBefore the noble Duke replies, I have one point I wish to bring up in connexion with these Italian prisoners. Our experience has not been quite the same as Lord Ailwyn's. In many cases the prisoners work extremely well where they are working only one or two on a farm. It is when they are together in gangs that there is practically no work done at all. But the point I wish to raise concerns the transport of these prisoners to work in country districts. At the present moment in our district, which is very widely scattered, these Italian prisoners are sent in some form of contractor's conveyance. The contractor is paid very highly for this contract and the service is abominable. The drivers of the lorries very often will not drop the prisoners within three or four miles of where they have got to work, and they 1229 tell them they have to get back there by a certain time. The result in the end is that the actual transport costs a good deal more than the value of the work. In many cases these prisoners are quite unable to get in any work, even if they wish to do so, for more than perhaps three hours a day. They probably do not arrive, on these winter days, until half past ten, possibly wet through and tired, and they have got to be back at some quite remote spot by half past three or earlier. If military transport could be given definitely to these camps I am perfectly sure it would save a vast amount of labour and a great deal of cost to the public in every way.
§ 4.55 p.m.
THE DUKE OF NORFOLKMy Lords, I shall try to give as full an answer to my noble friend as I possibly can. I would not like to appear to be trying to pass any of the points raised to other Departments, but it will become obvious as we go on that the War Office plays a certain part in the matter of that part of the question which deals with the Italian prisoners. The last point which has been raised by my noble friend the Earl of Stair is one of which I have not had any notice. We have had no complaints that I know of, but, if it is across the Border where it has happened, it would be with some diffidence that I should answer; and certainly not without finding out the facts; but I will bring them to the notice of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Department of Agriculture. The noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, mentioned that he had somebody who could make these Italians work very well, and I wonder possibly whether, if the person he meant was brought into closer contact with the Italians, we might have the results that we are all aiming at.
THE DUKE OF NORFOLKThank you very much. I think that the best means of answering this question would be to take the question in the order of its divisions on the Paper. I would at once tell my noble friend that the Government are well aware of the great difficulties that farmers are having in East Anglia in gathering in these root crops, potatoes and sugar beet. Also I should like to say that they are having great difficulty all 1230 over the country, owing in no small degree to the enormous amount of time that has been lost and to the delays caused by bad weather. At this moment in East Anglia priority has been given to the gathering of the potatoes, because the potato is far more apt to come to harm and be lost if it is left out after the end of this month. So we are hoping that in another week or so, when all the potato harvest is finished, there will be slightly more labour available for the gathering of the sugar beet. It is estimated at this moment that between 25 and 50 per cent. of the sugar beet crop has been collected in East Anglia; and I am afraid that a proportion of the crop—though, unless the weather continues to be really bad, it should not be a large proportion—will not be lifted before Christmas. But practically the whole crop should be lifted before the end of January.
With regard to the second part of the question, it is perfectly true that a certain amount of the sugar content falls when the beet is left out as late as Christmas, and the risk of damage by frost of course is greater as the winter progresses. I admit therefore that the probable production of sugar in this country this year will be less than it was the time last year; but I do not think that, if we are able to find the labour and have favourable weather, the loss is going to be serious, provided, as I said just now, we can get the crop lifted by the end of January.
As to the third part of the noble Lord's question, the contract prices for this year's sugar beet crop are 81s., 82s. and 83s. per ton according to the factory group. The factory group price in East Anglia is 81s. This price is paid on a sugar content of 15½ per cent. and the price is also subject to a variation of 3s. 4d. for each 1 per cent. either up or down from the 15½. In 1944 a new provision has been introduced into the contract which in effect relieves growers in all parts of the country of freight costs to the factory in excess of 7s. per ton. Previously this concession only applied to two factories, Alscott and Kidderminster. In the last three years the averages of the sugar content have been: in 194r, 17.2 per cent.; in 1942, 16.65 per cent.; and in 1943, 16.5 per cent. The sugar content of the 1944 crop (the one which is now under discussion) is likely to be slightly less than 1231 last year's; but it is not possible at this moment to give a precise forecast of the percentage.
Both 1942 and 1943 were good years, and the average return to the grower in those years was 85s. 11d. and 85s. 3d. per ton. The Government consider that the present prices will cover the costs of production and provide a reasonable return to growers and do not regard any further price adjustment as necessary or desirable. The growers have had the advantage of two good seasons which have brought them returns above the average and ought not to expect compensation from the Government on account of the less favourable conditions prevailing this year. This would be merely a "Heads I win, tails you lose" policy. I am afraid it is not possible at this stage to furnish any estimate of the extent to which sugar beet growers' returns are likely to be reduced this year as compared with the two previous seasons. Naturally, this is bound to differ as between one grower and another according to individual circumstances, but the Government do not consider that any substantial loss will occur provided we can get the beet collected.
I now come to the last of the noble Lord's questions, referring to the work of Italian prisoners, and I shall try to deal reasonably fully with this. It is perfectly true that we have been obliged to rely to a considerable extent on Italian and German prisoners of war in East Anglia. We have, of course, had the assistance of the Women's Land Army and a certain number of sailors, soldiers, airmen and civilians, but those numbers, owing to the present state of the war, are not as great as they have been in the past. The noble Lord referred to the unsatisfactory way in which, he said, the Italians worked, but I think, as the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, and the noble Earl, Lord Stair, said, it is not quite true to say that they are all unsatisfactory. Some are good, and they work better, as I think everybody agrees, when there are only two or three working for an individual farmer, than when they are in gangs.
But there has been a justifiable complaint about one of the camps in East Anglia, and the worst offenders in that camp have now been sent to a deten- 1232 tion camp, where they are submitted to the disciplinary measures which are allowed under the Geneva Convention. But all matters concerning the action that may be taken in handling the prisoners is, as my noble friend realizes, a matter for the War Office, and if any-body has reason to complain about the behaviour of these Italians or the work they do, a formal complaint has to be made to the camp authorities, and it will be taken up. Whenever that has been done we have had the fullest support from the military authorities. At this moment we are having another urgent investigation made at the camp by the Labour Advisory Officer, and we are now awaiting his report.
One of the troubles this year is that in the whole country there is an increase of 40,000 acres of potatoes and sugar beet, and although we have got an increase of labour the extra labour is only that of women and prisoners. But the real grievance with all the farmers, and with my Department, is against the weather, which has played a part which we could not have foreseen. We did, in fact, foresee that the shortage of labour in East Anglia was going to be great, and we had arrangements some months ago to post 9,000 additional prisoners of war to the Eastern Counties to collect the root crop. But unfortunately when the moment came for those men to be moved from the other areas where they had been working, it was found that owing to the weather the harvest was still out in those areas and the men could not be taken from them until that part of the harvest had been collected. However, since the 1st of October last 12,500 German and Italian prisoners have been sent to East Anglia. Altogether, there are now working in those counties 15,000 Italians and 4,000 German prisoners.
§ LORD AILWYNCould the noble Duke say what is the proportion of German and Italian prisoners?
THE DUKE OF NORFOLKI have just given it—15,000 Italians and 4,000 Germans. The number, however, is still too low. The noble Lord has asked what steps we are taking to remedy the situation. We are hoping that the weather will improve. We shall, however, continue to transfer prisoners of war to the Eastern Counties, both German and Italian, but one of the difficulties at this 1233 moment in trying to get a large quantity of labour into this rather small area is that of accommodation. Although many buildings may appear to be suitable for the purpose we are again up against the Geneva Convention, under which only a certain level of accommodation can be used for this purpose. Therefore I think your Lordships will agree that the matter is not altogether an easy one. We have made representations to, I think, all Departments, and as far as it is possible all Departments have helped us with a certain amount of labour. But after five years of war and with the large number of our Forces overseas we are not in a position to call upon the military. If things improve and we can get this prisoners' labour accommodated and working satisfactorily, the Government feel that they will get the sugar beet crop harvested and lifted in time. The matter is at this moment under the active consideration of the Government, and everything that is possible is being done to accelerate the work.