Lords Sitting of 3 May 1944

Preamble
The House met, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers.
The Lord Shaughnessy—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.

SECRET SESSION.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DOMINION AFFAIRS (VISCOUNT CRANBORNE) (Lord Cecil): My Lords, I beg to move that the House do sit in Secret Session.
Moved, That the House do now sit in Secret Session.—(Viscount Cranborne.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.
The Official Reporter then withdrew.
House in Secret Session.
Sitting resumed in Open Session.

LONDON & NORTH EASTERN RAILWAY BILL.
Read 2a, and committed.
CONNAH'S QUAY GAS BILL.
Read 2a, and committed.
SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932:

  URBAN DISTRICT OF COALVILLE ORDER.
  THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA AND BURMA (THE EARL OF MUNSTER): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name.
  Moved, That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department under the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, and laid before the House on the 18th day of April last, be approved.—(The Earl of Munster.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  NEWFOUNDLAND.
  LORD AMMON LORD AMMON rose to ask His Majesty's Government for information regarding the constitutional position of Newfoundland and their arrangements for the post-war economic development of the island; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, in addressing your Lordships' House for the first time I am conscious of speaking in a more rarefied atmosphere than that to which I have been accustomed for some years. If I show signs that I am not fully acclimatized, I throw myself on the forbearance of your Lordships. The Motion which I have placed on the Order Paper really calls for a progress report arising out of the debate that took place in another place on December 16 last when the following Motion was moved and unanimously agreed to after being accepted by the Government:
  "That this House welcomes the statement made on behalf of His Majesty's Government of the acceptance in principle of the right of Newfoundland to self-government; and urges His Majesty's Government to give effect to such approval by taking the necessary preliminary action as soon as practicable."
  As your Lordships know, the Motion now before the House was put down before Easter, but owing to other circumstances I withdrew it, so that the noble Viscount, whom I am glad to see here to speak for the Department, has had a further opportunity of obtaining information as to what steps have been taken to implement the Motion that was carried in the other place.
  Speaking in another place on the 2nd December last, the Under-Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs said:
  "… my noble friend will be greatly helped by the stimulating suggestions which they made."
  This is a reference to the reports that were sent in by the members of the good-will mission.
  "Many of the suggestions deal with administrative matters and the development of the country's industries and public service. These matters are all under consideration and examination. I will not go into them to-day, but I will confine myself to the constitutional issue which the Government have recently had under review."
  I take it that we shall now hear that since then they have been able to go into these other matters and that we shall have further information concerning the constitutional position.
  I must throw myself on your Lordships' mercy if I make a preliminary survey of the history of the development of the constitutional and economic affairs of the island of Newfoundland, but it is absolutely necessary to do so in order that one may get a full understanding of the present situation, and it is rendered still more so owing to the reluctance, which need not go into now, of the Department to publish the reports that were sent in by the members of the good-will mission. Really the root of the difficulties, both constitutional and economic, that Newfoundland finds itself in, go back right to the very beginning when this oldest land of the Empire first entered the family. It was discovered by John Cabot on June 24, 1497, and it was adopted by Sir Humphrey Gilbert on behalf of Her Majesty queen Elizabeth on August 5, 1583. That followed a long period of parental neglect and of some ill-treatment too on the part of the Mother Country, so much so that the sores are there even to this day. They were not allowed to develop the country or even to settle in it, and laws were passed and enforced by the notorious Star Chamber to prevent fishermen and others settling there in any numbers. It was also enacted that ships should bring back the same number of persons that they set out with. This was promoted by the merchants there because they wanted to keep Newfoundland simply as a fishing station, but with the obstinacy born of British people the groups mentioned did settle here and there, and you now have the position that a relatively small population of 280,000 persons in normal times are distributed over no less than 1,300 different settlements or outposts.
  It was not until 1832 that an elected Assembly was formed in Newfoundland. In 1855 responsible government was granted arid this continued until 1933. Then, owing to difficulties mainly economic, the country was put into a state of virtual bankruptcy, and application was made to this country in order that it might be relieved of its distresses. I cannot do better than state the position in the words of the Under-Secretary when he addressed another place on 2nd December. He said:
  "In the twelve years from 1920 onwards conditions deteriorated. During this period the Budget was never balanced… By 1931, when the world economic depression was at
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  its height, the public debt had been doubled, its credit was exhausted, it had no reserves on which to fall back, and conditions had become desperate."
  There was appointed the Amulree Commission which brought in some very drastic recommendations, and of its own volition the Newfoundland Parliament asked this Government to give effect to the findings of the Amulree Commission. What was called by the curious name "The Commission of Government" was appointed. It consisted of three civil servants from this side and three Newfoundlanders nominated to serve with them. That Commission had both weakness and strength in that, while it had perfect integrity and honesty of purpose and administration, it had no breadth of outlook, no spirit of the future and little or no contact with the people. The position was unfair both to the Commissioners and to the Newfoundlanders. I have no adverse criticism to make of the Commissioners as Commissioners, and in fact I would take the opportunity of paying a tribute of respect to Sir Wilfrid Woods, the Chief Commissioner, who after doing very valuable work has retired. But by the very nature of things the Commissioners were tied to their desks when they ought to have gone about seeking out persons with some political knowledge and coming in contact with the people, and formulating policies for civil servants to give effect to, as in this country. All that happened was that they just managed to keep the balance of things.
  Then we must consider the nature of the country itself. In size Newfoundland is about the size of England and Wales. About one-third of it is water and somebody has suggested that if you fly over it in an aeroplane it looks very much like what the world must have looked like when the dove went out from the ark after the great flood. The population, as I have said, consists of 283,000 people in normal times distributed over the whole country in 1,300 settlements which gives an average of 183 persons in each settlement. Over 40,000 of these people are centred in St. John's, and St. John's is both the capital of the island and also an object of suspicion by the rest of the island, because the people have a fear that they are dominated and ruled by the people in St. John's—which seems perfectly true—with little or no regard for the rest of the population. We must

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  also have regard to the fact that the settlement concerning Labrador—about which the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack knows something—added territory at least three times as large as that of Newfoundland itself, with an added population of some 4,000, including Eskimos and Indians. That has been more than doubled by the opening of the Goose Bay airport.
  Social and economic conditions in Newfoundland are no advertisement for the British Empire on the American continent. You have on the island some of the worst housing conditions, I should think, to be seen anywhere in the world. Transport conditions are deplorable. The small railway that ambles—that is the right word—round the island has been described by Mr. A. H. Morton as being like one bought at Hamley's. That will give some idea what sort of railway it is. It is a nice comfortable railway, but you must not be worried if you are a day late—you are sure to be two hours late—in arriving at your destination. There is no single road across the island and little other means of transport besides the railway. The Commission travelled in all sorts of vehicles, including one which for want of a better name was called the ice-cream cart.
  It will be seen, therefore, that there is very little hope of getting a good economic development, nor can one hope that much can be done to set up local government, which was a thing we were most concerned about. Local government is practically non-existent in the island except in St. John's and the two towns of Grand Falls and Corner Brook. When one thinks of the smallness of the population in the the various settlements one can realize that it is almost impossible for the people to afford to set up amenities and all the things necessary to help a population to become prosperous. The interior of the island would seem to be much the same as when John Cabot discovered it in 1497. Little or nothing is known about parts of it. There have been rumours from time immemorial about hidden mineral wealth in the interior of the island, but nothing has been done in the way of scientfic survey or prospecting to see whether there is any foundation for the rumours. Since the war broke out the island has had a period of unusual prosperity, but already I think
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  there are signs of its ebbing. It is a prosperity based wholly on the war effort and war activities and nothing else, and has largely arisen from the establishment of the naval and military bases of Canada and the United States of America.
  What everyone who has any concern for Newfoundland and the Empire is very disturbed about is lest the island should lapse again into the conditions which followed the prosperity of the last war. The intention of the Motion I have put on the Paper is to obtain if possible from the Government some reassuring statement that steps have been taken, and are being taken, to safeguard against such a disaster as and when the "Cease fire" sounds. When the Newfoundland Act was passed setting up this separate Government it was stated that it would be understood that as soon as the island's difficulties were overcome and the country was again self-supporting, responsible government, on a request from the people of Newfoundland, would be restored. I would beg to ask your Lordships' consideration of what is involved in a statement such as this. The good-will mission of which I was a member was asked to go out to Newfoundland to make certain inquiries and investigations, to get into touch with the people, to obtain their reactions and their good will. I think that, without any conceit or without any fear of contradiction one can say that the good will of the people, at least, was obtained by the mission during the time that they were there. As one colleague of mine said, the last message from the island when we left was: "There will be more tears than water in our whisky to-night." That was their message when they bade us farewell, and I think it was an indication that some, at any rate, of the members of the mission were leaving a good reputation behind them.
  I want to make it clear from the outset that so far as the good-will mission is concerned, there is no question or challenge of the right to the restoration of self-government. It is a right that every self-respecting community has, and to the people of one of our Dominions, so classified, which has already had it, it must be a natural feeling that they would like it restored as soon as possible. This does, however, raise the question whether it would be wise to restore the right of self-government without some assurance

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  as to the future economic stability of Newfoundland. To restore self-government if the people of that country are again to be faced with a similar position to that which confronted them after the economic blizzard had swept the world in 1931, would be even more disastrous than not to attempt to do anything at all. Up to now, there seems to be little or no reassurance that some steps will he taken to prevent such a collapse. Endeavours have been made to obtain some information from Newfoundland itself. I have had letters from a number of people during the last few weeks, and all of these correspondents get to a point where they say in effect: "Oh, well, it seems that there is nothing doing. Matters are drifting back again to the same position in which they were after the little stir-up.' People are drifting into a state of indifference, thinking all is hopeless, and even the Press have given up commenting upon it." I hope that there are no real grounds for any such feeling as that.
  The mission ventured to make a report, and to put forward suggestions to His Majesty's Government in regard to both the economic and the constitutional positions. The good-will mission had adopted a line of inquiry which I think was unusual in such missions. Deliberately we did not accept the very generous hospitality which was offered to us by the Governor of the island to stay with him all the time we were there, because we did not wish it to be thought that we were by any means in the hands or under the control of the Government. We adopted the method of mixing with the people themselves. As there are practically no hotels in Newfoundland except the one in St. John's, that was not so difficult as it may sound. We stayed in fishermen's cottages, met the people on the wharf-side and in the sheds where they work. Sometime; we met the fishermen on their boats and in their churches and other places of worship. By these means we did get into touch with the people themselves. They talked to us, and, what was of even greater value, they talked to each other in front of us. In that way we managed to get a clear realization of their point of view. It is to be confessed that while there was exhibited a very overwhelming desire on their part to recover self-government, there was no definite idea as to exactly what they wanted,
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  because there was a very strong suspicion amongst them that some of the old politicians were still alive, and the people were afraid that these persons might get back into position again. That idea was voiced very freely, and it was pointed out that, in view of this suspicion, the people were not prepared to go right back to the conditions that obtained immediately before the war.
  After discussion it occurred to us that there must be a middle course, and it was suggested and discussed all round. It was thought that, perhaps, the people wanted some further training in their political education because where there is no local government there is bound to be very great ignorance in regard to the conduct of political affairs. So it was suggested that, perhaps, if from this side Commissioners were nominated and they elected their Commissioners over on that side, afterwards agreeing on an independent Chairman to preside over them, that might be a middle course. The idea did seem to find considerable favour. That is what has been proposed. It is illogical, I know; so is the British Constitution, but it works. I am not very much disturbed as to whether things look entirely log cal or not. If we can get the thing going and thereby raise the self-esteem of the people, that would help them to feel that they are taking a part in their own government. Nothing, I am positive, can be done to improve the economic conditions of the people unless action is taken in the way of developing their roads, and opening up lines of communication. That seems, of necessity, to call for some help from this side. We cannot enjoy all the kudos of Empire without also realizing that we may have to carry some of the burden. If it is worth while, then the sooner we get down to it the better. So I suggest that something in the nature of a fair-sized loan, either free of interest or at a very low rate of interest, should be spread over a number of years in order that the people of Newfoundland may be enabled to develop their road system, develop their housing, and develop their agriculture.
  One of the most extraordinary features of their regime is to be found in the methods by which they raise their taxation. Eighty per cent. of their taxation is raised by taxes on imported goods, and even on the very essential necessities of life. It does not need any argument

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  to point out that that must bear the hardest on the poorest people in the community. And yet one is convinced that it would be possible to feed the people to a very much larger extent on the resources of the country itself if those resources were properly organized and developed. On the West coastline there is a fertile country capable of yielding good agricultural results, and much could be done in that connexion. But whilst the sort of thing of which I have been speaking obtains it is absolutely hopeless to think that one will ever be able to do anything in regard to it. The main industry is fishing. Fishing is the gold of Newfoundland and yet it is only latterly that the people have begun to take it in hand and deal with it in any scientific manner in order to capture markets further afield. As I have said, they are at present enjoying an artificial prosperity brought about not only by the work in connexion with the war which is being done there but also by the fact that Iceland and Norway, their two biggest competitors, are out of business at the present time. When they return there will be a struggle and a test, and one wonders whether the Government are able to report that any steps have been and are being taken to strengthen the position in that regard. There ought to be the possibility of a big market in the Middle West of the United States if the matter is properly handled.
  These are some of the very obvious things which stand out a mile, but there are others also to be considered. Education is at a very low ebb. It is bound to be, perhaps, with the population so scattered, but the position is aggravated considerably by the method of administration in which denominationalism plays a tremendous part. However small a community may be, there have to be schools for at least three denominations—Roman Catholics, Anglicans and Free Churchmen—and sometimes the Salvation Army come in as a separate denomination. This sort of thing is carried so far that, although it is not now so openly done as used to be the case, when Government appointments are made regard has to be had to the claims of the different denominations. Whether by chance or design, the three Newfoundland members of the Commission of Government happen now
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  to represent the three different denominations.
  Those are some of the difficulties. It is like going back a chapter to the time before the Industrial Revolution in this country. However, a finer people never existed than the Newfoundlanders and, much as I think they have cause to complain of neglect by the Mother Country, more loyal people do not exist anywhere. In proportion to their population they have probably sent a larger contingent than any other part of the Empire to serve in the Forces, both on sea and on land, without counting those engaged in logging operations in the North of Scotland. They are fine, upstanding, independent people. They show a curious difference in their attitude towards the community. If a man's house happens to be burnt down—it happens fairly frequently, because all the houses are built of wood—or if the local church is burnt down, everybody turns out to help; but if a bridge is burnt down they will not do a stroke, because that is the affair of the Government and seems to them no concern of theirs.
  Perhaps I may mention an incident in that connexion. A man came to see the good-will mission and complained that a bridge near-by had fallen into decay, and that he could not get his sheep over it to their pasturage. We had just passed by the bridge, and I suggested to him that as there was plenty of wood lying about and plenty of men available he should get down to doing the work himself. He replied: "What, and have somebody else walk over it?" There is no community spirit in that regard, but I am sure that that same man, if his neighbour's house had been burnt down, would have turned out readily and worked night and day to help to restore it. That attitude arises as much as anything from the lack of a community spirit due to the lack of self-government. Although steps are being taken to attempt to remedy the matter, it is almost impossible to hope for much to be done in that respect when the communities are so small that the rates which can be levied are too trifling to be effective. Steps must be taken to provide roads and other communications, which alone will help to cure the isolation of these small communities.
  From time immemorial it has been said that there are untold mineral resources in

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  the island. Predatory capitalism has not had much chance in Newfoundland, and has not been attracted there, because the openings have not been very obvious. There is however, a chance for anybody who is prepared to settle down and work hard. There are the mining and logging industries in addition to fishing. On Bell Island there is probably the biggest ore field in the world; it is said to be inexhaustible. Right up to the outbreak of this war not a ton of that ore came here; it all went to Germany. We are now getting some here. It is said that that position arose because the furnaces in this country are not suitable for the ore, but that statement needs to be taker with a grain of salt, because furnaces can be altered. It has been suggested that the investment of capital in Spain may have a little more to do with it. These things should be inquired into and there should be some means of linking the country up with the rest of the Empire, so that it can be given effective help.
  Housing is deplorable. On Bell Island I should think that there is tae worst housing in the whole world. I have visited native villages in the depths of West Africa, but I have not seen anything so dreadful there as I saw on Belt Island. There is no proper water supply and no proper sanitation. Pails used for the latter purpose are not emptied for months. The conditions are deplorable and beggar description. The capital, St. John's. occupies one of the most beautiful sites in the world, with its harbour and surrounding hills, but it is simply an ugly agglomeration of buildings with hardly an achitectural feature in the whole place, and it is without an independent water supply and sanitation, although it is the capital city.
  I know that when I speak on this subject I am in danger of talking too long, and must not spoil my first speech in your Lordships' House by going on for an unduly long time. I do, however, ask the noble Viscount who is to reply to give some hope and encouragement to the people of Newfoundland that help will be given to them both for the restoration of self-government and to pave the way for a better economic future. I beg to move for Papers.
  VISCOUNT BENNETT: My Lords, although but a recent member of your
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  Lordships' House, I trust that my noble friend will permit me to congratulate him on his first speech in this Chamber, and to say with what interest we have listened to his observations. While he was good enough to state that this was his first speech here, it will have been apparent as he proceeded that he was a skilled debater with a wide experience of public gatherings, and the power to bring to bear on the problems which must be considered by this nation a breadth of thought and a point of view which it is very desirable should be presented in your Lordships' House.
  I speak to-day because I have some knowledge of the Newfoundland situation. When the Commission Government was appointed we assumed certain financial responsibilities for the moment to enable the situation to be met. It is a very odd thing, but the fact is that the present history of Newfoundland is just what it has been during the centuries. Of all the possessions of the Crown I think it has had one of the most remarkable experiences. It was discovered by the Norsemen nearly a thousand years ago. It is nearly four hundred years since an Englishman landed there, and it is three hundred years since a formal effort was made to colonize it. As a young man I remember very well becoming acquainted with the difficulties which arose in connection with the treaties, such as the treaty of 1818. There were French cruisers off the treaty areas and cruisers from the British Navy patrolled the sea front. Two of the most celebrated dispatches written by the grandfather of the noble Viscount who leads this House were written with respect to fishing rights in the waters contiguous to Newfoundland.
  It has had altogether a very strange experience indeed, because when one of our historians, Sir Charles Lucas, was dealing with the survey of the British Empire and came to Newfoundland he found that it was then stated that it was about to become a part of the Dominion of Canada, and so he thought it would be unnecessary to deal with it separately. But nothing came of that, as your Lordships know, and Sir Charles Lucas used these words:
  "I was always enchanted by the strange half lights, the shifting ideas and the obedience to natural law which the scene displayed."

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  And at the close he put his thoughts into these words:
  "Newfoundland is one of those communities where the web of life consists, even in these latter days, of six or seven threads, and no more, and is an instance of a State absolutely dependent on world trade, yet absolutely simple."
  That was his summary of the situation then. Is it much different to-day?
  And when I heard the noble Lord, Lord Ammon, discuss the historic side of the subject, it seemed to me that one could not forget that here was a vast island, perhaps a third larger than Ireland, apart from Labrador, which had no means of communication between many of its parts, had several thousand miles of coastline, and was used during the years largely as a fishing station—a fishing station for the United States so far as it was possible under their treaty rights, for France, for Portugal and even for the men of Devon, who went from these shores and came back with their catch. The sale of codfish was their principal and stable source of revenue. They sold them to the Iberian Peninsula and to the West Indies and largely to the Mediterranean countries. Difficulties were experienced through the decline of prices, and, while there is probably not a single member of this House who is not in favour of the restoration of responsible government and representative institutions in Newfoundland, I personally think it would be a very great mistake if they were granted at this time, for reasons I shall give. Although I believe that the Government are most anxious that they should be granted, I think they must equally be anxious that the grant should not be made too soon.
  It is over a century since they first had elections in Newfoundland. It is within a few years of a century that the Crown has been represented by a Resident Governor. During all that time it was incurring debts, and in the end its debts amounted to 101,000,000 dollars, with a population of about 280,000. The service of the debt became impossible because their revenues, to the extent of 80 per cent., were derived from duties on imports, which affected the population very acutely. As the noble Lord has said, it was quite impossible for them to maintain the increased duties and to service the debt which had been incurred. This country had largely advanced the money, and in order that
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  Newfoundlanders might protect their credit they passed in their Legislature a Resolution asking that their representative institutions should be suspended and that they should have a Commission form of government. It was their action that brought that about—not the action of anybody else. It was not forced upon them by this country. It is true that when Lord Amulree, the Chairman of the Commission, was making his Report he came to Ottawa for the purpose of ascertaining what the position was with respect to the relations between the two communities, but the people themselves in their Legislature, without coercion or duress, and without pressure being put upon them, decided that if this old country would assume the responsibility of paying the interest on those obligations, when they were unable to do so, they would gladly give up their representative government for the time being. I think it only fair to say to my noble friend that it is a mistake to say that this country has done nothing for Newfoundland during the last few years. The pulp and paper industries were developed in part by guarantees given to the securities under the Act you passed after the last war, and I shall presently indicate just what effect that has had upon them.
  Now in these circumstances is it wise to suggest that there should be a return to conditions which they themselves admit at the moment they are unable to deal with? The circumstances that brought about the conditions to which I alluded with respect to the interest on their obligations have been improved, as the noble Lord has said, by reason of the war, and nothing else. Let me give your Lordships an illustration. Codfish is the basis of their prosperity and the sale of codfish and other fish for the nine months of last year amount to something over 12,000,000 dollars. The price per quintal was 14 dollars. The price per quintal two years before was 10 dollars 50 cents, and the year before that 5 dollars 50 cents. Is it wise to contemplate a return to the conditions that formerly prevailed when you have this extraordinary price of 14 dollars per quintal for their fish, as against 5.50 dollars, the price that existed when the war began? Would it not be better to be sure as to just what the level of conditions will be under post-war conditions?

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  There is a second matter which in my judgment leads to the same conclusion. Strange as it may sound, in view of the magnificent fertile land in Newfoundland—and there are considerable areas of excellent agricultural land—the average importation of farm products to that island is of the value of 7,500,000 dollars per annum. Would it not be better if, instead of talking about institutions, we did what we could to improve agricultural conditions and to get the Newfoundland people into a position when they will supply their own requirements of agricultural products from their own country? Because even the agricultural products are taxed, and the result, as has been pointed out, is that the price to the poor consumer is very large.
  Education is another matter that it is difficult to speak about without arousing animosity, as the noble Lord knows, for he has recently been there. It is a denominational system. The State assists the denominations in maintaining the schools, and there are three sets of schools in most of these little communities. There are 65,000 children at school or thereabouts at the present moment, and in order to improve educational faculties they have done something with respect to adult education, which is highly desirable. That is the position at the moment as regards those matters.
  It has been suggested that Newfoundland should become a part either of the United Slates or of Canada. In the years past there was negotiated a treaty between Mr. Blaine and Mr. Bond, of Newfoundland, which was the subject of much acrimonious discussion between this country and that. In the end the Treaty was not noted upon because Canada intervened and opposed it. Then there was the famous Bond-Hay Treaty which was negotiated by Mr. Hay as Secretary of State of the United States, and that fell by the wayside. Every effort that has been made to secure a permanent treaty with the United States has usually failed because the United States was not prepared to enable the Newfoundland fishermen to send his products from the Great Banks, obtained in open competition, into the port of Gloucester in competition with their own fishermen. The result has been that, failing to obtain that and other concessions, their efforts have failed.
  With respect to Canada, Newfoundland is a very excellent customer of the
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  Dominion. At one time, as long ago as 1893, negotiations for the admission of Newfoundland into the Confederation were almost concluded. They broke down because the Government of Canada at that time was unwilling to accept responsibility for what it considered to be the over-large debt of Newfoundland. That was the nearest approach there has ever been to the admission of Newfoundland to the Confederation. The terms had practically been agreed upon, and Judge Prowse, the historian of Newfoundland, declined to go on with his second volume because, he said, by the time he would have it in print Newfoundland would be part of the Dominion of Canada. That was the reason also that Sir Charles Lucas gave for having to make a separate volume with respect to Newfoundland. That, as I say, is the nearest approach we have had to the admission of Newfoundland to Canada, and it failed for financial reasons. At the moment, I think the Newfoundland people are not desirous of becoming a part of the Dominion of Canada, and certainly there is nothing to indicate a desire that their country should be merged into the United States of America. The concession granted to the United States with respect to bases in Newfoundland has caused much discussion to which I shall not refer.
  There are three great airports. There is one at Gander, where there is a magnificent lake for seaplanes as well as provision for landplanes. There is an aerodrome at Botwood, which has really been built by Canada, and then over in Labrador you have Goose Bay aerodrome, which is a very magnificent one, built to overcome some of the difficulties experienced by reason of the fact that though Newfoundland has a very equable climate—very seldom does the thermometer fall much below zero—the action of the Gulf Stream on the cold water from the Arctic is apt to create fog areas in the southern part of the island in the spring, making it difficult to operate the aerodromes at either Botwood or Gander. The hope is that the great aerodrome at Goose Bay may overcome that difficulty. I fancy that the noble Lord was there himself.
  We come to the resources of Newfoundland. Canada in the east is wholly dependent on the iron ore resources of Newfoundland. It is quite true, as has been said, that this country has declined

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  so far to purchase iron ore from Newfoundland. The late Sir Newton Moore, when he was President of the Dominion Iron and Steel Company at Sydney, which buys its supplies from Wabana in Newfoundland—it is entirely dependent on this source for its iron ore—urged this country very strongly to purchase ore from Newfoundland. He failed for reasons I shall not discuss, and I agree with the noble Lord that some of them were wholly incapable of being supported. As a result the iron ore went to Germany where, up to the time of the outbreak of war, it was being bought in increasing quantities. That could be remedied, and I think should be remedied. That is my personal view after very careful study of it in days long since passed.
  With respect to Labrador, efforts have been made by a rather strong company to ascertain whether or not there are great mineral resources in that territory. It is idle to say that there are untold riches there. I agree with what the noble Lord has said on that point. Equally, it is untrue to say that we have any evidence of there being any great mineral resources in the centre of Newfoundland itself. We have seams of coal there, and copper in fairly large quantities, so much so that there has been considerable export of copper in the last few years; but the coal areas have not been developed. Copper has been developed in a minor way. It may be possible to extend the development of copper very greatly and thereby provide some employment for the citizens, and to develop the coal as well.
  Your Lordships perhaps have not realized that the part of Labrador that belongs to Newfoundland has an area of 120,000 square miles. In other words, it is nearly three times as large as the island of Newfoundland itself. My personal opinion is that this vast territory will some day be acquired by purchase from Newfoundland by the Dominion of Canada or by the Province of Quebec, because it marches with part of the area still under the control of the Dominion. It is rich in timber. I have seen reports that make it quite clear beyond peradventure that there are large quantities of timber to be found in that area. Equally, the timber resources of the island of Newfoundland are extremely
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  valuable. I am sure that the noble Lord satisfied himself on that point, because some of the pine is of a very large size. The pit props which are supplied from Newfoundland in peace-time are very valuable so far as this country is concerned. At the moment there is no export at all because of lack of shipping. The pulp and paper industry is capable of very considerable development, and the mills which I am sure Lord Ammon saw at Corner Brook and at the location of the other mill, give evidence of a very powerful and strong industry. In fact, much of the paper that has come into this country since the war began has come from Newfoundland. Shortly put, it may be said that Newfoundland's six or seven threads of life resolve themselves into (a) fishing and fish, (b) pulp and paper, (c) minerals and mineral deposits.
  I do not share the view I frequently hear expressed in many quarters that there has been some neglect of Newfoundland by the Old Country. The extent is so vast that even to make highways is very difficult. You have to remember that the island is 317 miles across one way and 316 miles the other way, and it is a thickly wooded country in many parts. Then we must have regard to the fact that there are thirteen hundred settlements or more—the number is larger than that at the present time. These settlements are little communities with a few families in each, living at small coves or bays along the coast of this island for 2,000 miles. Having developed self-government, as was done, and having made Newfoundland a Dominion, as it was, it is not quite fair, it seems to me, to expect this old land to provide money for all the development that should take place after the country assumed the status of a Dominion. I do not think that is to be expected, but it is quite clear that under the present form of government—that is a Commission consisting partly of nominated Newfoundlanders and partly of civil servants from this country—at least some ordered development will take place and has indeed taken place since the Commission was established.
  I should think from my observation and knowledge of Newfoundland that we might have to go back to our early plans for the development of responsible government and representative institutions. In

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  other words, as has been suggested, Commissioners might be elected if need be. I do not know whether that is possible or not. The noble Viscount looks at me very hard at the suggestion of the possibility of it. It might be very difficult but it will be recalled that in the early days of Nova Scotia, when the Governor arrived in the harbour of Halifax, he signed a decree providing for the election of members, very few in number, and it might be that such a course as suggested would remove suspicion. It would be possible to make some provision for the election of suitable men so that they might have a part in advising on various matters. I have read the speech made by the noble Lord with respect to his recent visit to Newfoundland and I should presume that probably most members of your Lordships' House have read the report of the Parliamentary Association. If any of your Lordships have not read it you will find that a perusal of it will amply repay the time taken, for it is a very illuminating statement of the situation.
  Notwithstanding the lack of money and of the conveniences of modern life the Newfoundlander is a very fine man, healthy, of excellent physique, of the highest courage, and active and industrious. He has made a real contribution to this war, not only amongst the woods of Scotland, but on the ships in which he has sailed and in the land Forces of the Empire. Part of the debt that was incurred, part of the 101,000,000 dollars to which I referred, was the contribution that they made in the last war. I think the amount was about 17,500,000 dollars, but I speak subject to correction in regard to that figure. And the sums they have expended during this war have been substantial. Their revenue last year far exceeded their expenditure and their railway has become prosperous. During the last few years it has more than paid its way. It will be recalled that on its inception the then Colonial Secretary, Mr. Chamberlain, referred to the bargain that had been made by the Government of Newfoundland with respect to the railway as most objectionable and such as had never been made previously in any self-governing community in the British world. The fact of the matter is, however, that it was not vetoed. That is another illustration of the lack of any
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  effort on the part of this country to force its views upon the people of Newfoundland.
  The free determination of that great issue was left to them, and they voted in favour of the railway and of the grant of 5,000 acres per alternate mile in addition to guaranteeing the cost. In the end the electors took a hand and determined that it was not satisfactory to them, and a better and more reasonable bargain was made. Nevertheless, it is one that involved Newfoundland in tremendous financial responsibilities and I think that the observations made with respect to the railway are quite in order. But it is fair to say that what was done was done by the people of Newfoundland and was not done at the instance of this country. Nor had this country anything to do with it except to point out the inevitable result that would follow, and which has followed, if they pursued the course that they did pursue. That is the position with respect to the railway. I happen to know, unfortunately, quite a lot about that and its effect upon the fortunes of Newfoundland.
  I make these observations in the hope that the Government will not too speedily go back to self-government but that by gradual evolution they will follow the old system. That system in days gone by was for our Governors to take counsel with representative men and seek their assistance and advice and, ultimately, to create a Legislative Council. It is perhaps a dreadful thing to say but in Newfoundland I think it may be best to begin again at the beginning, and develop effectively the institutions that will ultimately make possible the full development of the country and its people. The provision of transport is necessary. Transport means roads. There are practically no roads in Newfoundland. I think my noble friend will agree that that is not an unfair thing to say. There must be development of roads and of transport and of the agricultural resources of the country. I think the Government might well direct their energies to that object. With regard to the mineral resources, a geological survey should be made both in Newfoundland and Labrador and we should ascertain beyond question to what exent the mineral resources are worthy of great development. Private enterprise in Labrador has already created a large company with a considerable capital to deal

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  with some of these matters. In fact, before it was decided by the Privy Council that Labrador was the property of Newfoundland and not of Canada or Quebec, the development of the Labrador area had received much consideration.
  I do not think it would serve the purpose for this country to make loans to Newfoundland, but rather that we should assist financially and otherwise in a plan that will encourage development and make it possible that there should be settlement that will not be dependent entirely upon fishing. We have developed to some extent a market in Canada and elsewhere for frozen fish. That has increased to the extent of from 50,000,000 to 90,000,000 quintals and is increasing rapidly as days go by. I suggest that it is along that line that we should proceed at this time for the purpose of showing not only our interest in but our concern for Newfoundland, which stands at the gateway of Canada and the whole American Continent. This is a critical time in its history, and we can best show our concern for its people by making it possible for them to have the opportunity for self-development not only in an economic sense but also by the development of a Constitution on the lines that have enabled this country to act so successfully in the development of free institutions throughout the world, starting with the best men in the community, beginning with the advice and help of the business man and growing up gradually until such time as there can be established a system of full representative and responsible government.
  Representative government is one thing —they have had it there for over a century—but responsible government is another thing. They have had it for nearly a century and now it has failed. I could give the reasons for its failure if I were so minded, but I think the noble Lord who has spoken could give them much more fully and accurately than I would care to do because he has seen the country close at hand much more recently than I have done. The fact is the Report of a Commission indicated that all the money that was borrowed did not find its last lodging place in the development of the country!
  VISCOUNT MAUGHAM: My Lords, the last two speakers who know very much
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  more of this topic than I do have said much that I had intended to inflict on your Lordships, and to that extent I am relieved from repeating what they have told you. There remains for me to say that it seems to me there is the strongest possible case for something to be done and to be done without delay. I am in touch with people who are intimately acquainted with Newfoundland. I know very well that there is in that island a feeling of dismay about the position of the island when the war comes to an end and a feeling that the Mother Country has no great interest in the future prospects of the island. It is therefore in my belief absolutely essential that some steps should be taken to show that the idea that we are not interested in the matter is wrong and that the Mother Country really has greatly at heart the future interests of this fine race of men. Everybody who knows the people has the highest possible opinion of them, their character, their physical powers and so forth. The usual phrase that you find in a book of geography is that the climate is salubrious and that the people are a strong, brave, healthy, hardy and industrious race. All who go there agree with those facts.
  The reason why the position seems to me to be somewhat urgent is the reason which has already been touched upon—namely, that when Newfoundland petitioned this country to take the steps which we have been told were taken in the year 1933 those steps were taken on the footing to be found in the Schedule of the Newfoundland Act in which there are these words:
  "It would be understood that, as soon as the island's difficulties are overcome and the country is again self-supporting, responsible government, on request from the people of Newfoundland, would be restored."
  The island, it may be owing to circumstances which will not recur, is now self-supporting and a great number of people, as I am told—I am far from saying the country as a whole—are desirous of obtaining once more some sort of responsible government, not necessarily the sort of government which the island had before the year 1933.
  Your Lordships can readily understand that people who desire that Newfoundland should become either part of the United States, a matter that has been referred to, or to become one of the provinces of Canada, have got in their hands a very

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  easy topic to raise annoyance and anger against this country. For my part, I think, judging from all I have read, that there is a great future both for Newfoundland and for the part of Labrador that is now known to be part of Newfoundland. That is based partly upon the enormous change which has taken place since 1933 in relation to air travel, a matter on which my noble friend Lord Brabazon will probably enlighten us in a few moments, and also by reason of the great advance of science in various ways during that period.
  It is a mistake to suppose that nothing is known about the mineral resources of Newfoundland and, one might add, of Labrador The Amulree Report of 1933, only just over ten years ago, a most elaborate document of over 100 pages of print, contains a fairly elaborate statement of the then position with regard to the mineral wealth of Newfoundland and also a most elaborate statement of the position of the islanders in regard to other forms of industry. I had hoped that your Lordships would have been told by the noble Viscount, Lord Rothermere, the position with regard to wood pulp, in relation to which his family have taken so distinguished a part in Newfoundland, but with regard to iron ore it may be mentioned that the Wabana ore, as it is called, has been tried in this country. It is a mistake to suppose that none of that ore has been tried here. In 1931, as you will find by looking at paragraph 441 of the Amulree Report, over 33,000 tons of Wabana ore were tried in Great Britain. For some reasons winch I do not know, though I gather that my noble friend Lord Bennett knows them, the English ore smelters preferred to use some other ore, with the result that most of the Newfoundland ore went to Germany.
  One thing which I think the Government might fairly do, pending the restoration of responsible government in Newfoundland, is to take steps to send a Commission of some kind to Newfoundland to investigate the geological facts, to make prospecting surveys of the island, and to see whether the facts do not warrant expenditure by private enterprise or by private and public enterprise combined to make use of what I believe to be the very great mineral wealth both of Newfoundland and of Labrador. I also think that some use might be made of science to help
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  the islanders in agricultural matters. My noble friend Lord Bennett has said there are parts of the island where the soil is excellent. That may be so—I am the last person to deny his knowledge—but it is also true that according to various reports the bulk of the island's soil is of a peculiar character which, I should think, in all probability requires a very special kind of seed, and is perhaps in many places suitable only for the growing of potatoes and cabbages. But the people who go in for agriculture in the island are so poor that they are unable to provide any agricultural implements, and the probability is that with some assistance in the matter of agricultural implements there night be a great extension of agriculture in the river valleys, where alone the best soil would be found.
  I am not so vain as to think that I can tell the Government what form of new Constitution should be given to Newfoundland, but I do think one may without vanity press upon them the desirability of getting the islanders to know that this country is greatly interested in their future and is ready to do everything that can possibly be done at the present time on the request of the islanders to improve their position.
  LORD BRABAZON OF TARA: My Lords, I am sure you will allow me to extend to Lord Ammon the congratulations of everybody in this House on the most admirable speech which he has made to-day, and to welcome him in this noble assembly. I have sat listening to his words and gazing upon his features for so many years that it is indeed a pleasant thing for me to find him again by my side. Curiously enough, I never met him in the Lobby, but that was probably due to the fact that he dislikes overcrowding. I suffered from that in the lower House for many years.
  I am not an expert on Newfoundland, and I am rather pleased that I am not, for a few more of the depressing speeches such as we have heard to-day would cause me to burst into tears. It seems to me that this is a very sad subject. But I am an ordinary man in the street, and nobody as yet has voiced the views of that class of individual. I think there is general regret throughout this county to-day that when there is a gathering of Prime Ministers of our Dominions in London there should not be one from our oldest

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  Dominion, Newfoundland. It may be a sentimental point of view, but it is there. Everyone is conscious that in this curious island we have failed. I consider that the thought that the High Commissioner is now a Trade Commissioner is a sad matter. From the point of view of personnel we are happy in that the Leader of the House is now the representative here of Newfoundland, but he is here, so to speak, with a watching brief as a trustee in bankruptcy—not a very desirable and enjoyable part to play in life.
  Sir Stafford Cripps, in the debate in 1933, expressed the hope that the rearrangement would only last for three years. Eleven years have now passed and still we go on. I am prompted to say: "How long, O Lord, how long is this denial of all we stand for, of representative government, to go on?" And I am addressing the Leader of the House. Of course, all these troubles which beset Newfoundland arise from lack of prosperity in the island. But the situation is changed now. I understand that Newfoundland has been lending us money, that she has loaned us no less than 13,000,000 dollars without interest. I wonder what the situation with regard to this country is going to be after the war as to payment of these loans. Supposing we default; is Newfoundland to abolish our Parliament and govern us by a Commission? And if that is not so, if there is not a natural sequence of events in these affairs, then we are governing on the basis of the big stick. That is not the genius of the British race—governing on the basis of the big stick.
  I do not think, if I may say so, that the mover of this Motion was strong enough in his appeal for the publication of the reports of the three Members of Parliament who went on the good-will mission. After all, there could not be anybody more representative of England than these three—the mover of this Motion, Sir Derrick Gunston, who is universally respected and esteemed, and the great A. P. Herbert. Surely their remarks and impressions were well worthy of being published so that everybody might get to know what their impressions and conclusions were as to what was going on, and use them in order to build up some form of knowledge of a. rather little-known place so that a policy might be moulded upon
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  that. I know that it is easy to say: "Now nothing must be done until after the war." Political events have shown that if you kick up enough fuss things are done during the war. This is a matter which I should have thought might have been got on with rather more quickly than has so far been contemplated.
  But I do not rise to talk about the general subject. I rise to speak about the importance of Newfoundland as an air Clapham Junction. If you look at an ordinary map it is extraordinary how, on Mercator's projection, Newfoundland looks as though it were not directly on the route between London and New York; but if you stretch a string on a globe you will find that in order to make the shortest aerial journey between those two capitals you have to fly directly over Newfoundland. The Lord Privy Seal has told us, and very rightly told us, that this route between England and America will be far and away the most important air route in the world, and from a flying point of view it is a very difficult flying area. You must remember that the wind averages throughout the year something like fifty miles per hour. We had recently—and it went on for over a week—a wind of 87 knots against us. This, of course, gives pretty trying conditions for flying. Furthermore, you have got, over Newfoundland, icing conditions which are probably unequalled in the world. So you have to fly extremely high. Altogether it is a very difficult proposition, in view of all these things and the scarcity of bases, to fly with existing machines from this country to New York.
  With existing machines and in face of these conditions, you would probably arrive with a pay load approximating in weight to a post card. That is why when you take on that particular job you will have to get, at enormous expense, colossal machines, none of which have so far been built, one of which is contemplated. If you can break your journey at convenient halting places, your pay load goes up. That is one of the cardinal things about long-distance flying. If you go too far at a time, the necessity of carrying enough fuel means that you will have no useful pay load. Now in Newfoundland we have a half-way house. The flight from London to America could be made in stages—London to the West of Ireland, the West of Ireland to Gander, and Gander to Montreal or New York.

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  You may say, "That sounds ad rights but these aerodromes in that part of the world are always beset by fogs." Well, they may be, but in view of the advances which we have made in radiolocation and in radio aids to navigation generally, within, I was going to say months, but at any rate a few years, the possibility of landing in conditions of no visibility should become an accomplished fact and should, in fact, be one of the normal ways of landing. When that comes about there can be no objection to fog.
  Furthermore, it has got to be remembered that this service is not to be only for the rich. If it is going to mean anything at all it is going to mean that people will be carried by air from America to England and from England to America at reasonable rates. And that will only be made possible if you can get halting places at reasonable intervals on the journey. It is for that reason that aerodromes at such places as Newfoundland are of vital importance. It is quite true to say that an immense amount of money has been spent upon these aerodromes. I asked the other day, in a debate on civil aviation, what was the position in that regard, and what was going to be the post-war situation. I did not get a reply, and I am wondering whether the noble Viscount, the Leader of the House, can say a word about that to-day. When an aerodrome is built in, say, Iceland, no one supposes that after the war that aerodrome should go to anybody else but the Icelanders, but when an aerodrome is built on British Empire territory there seems to be a question of to whom it should belong after the war. That appears to me to be a new and intolerable situation. These aerodromes have been built with Canadian money, British money and American money, and. I sincerely hope that we shall have an assurance that they will revert, after the war, to the sovereignty of Newfoundland and to nobody else.
  I do not wish to be a dog-in-the-manger in this matter at all; I have always pleaded and always shall plead, for freedom for anybody to use any aerodrome which exists. I do plead, however, that these aerodromes should not be handed over either to the United States or to the great Dominion of Canada; in other words, that Whitehall should not make a decision or this matter without the con-
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  sent of the people concerned. Frankly, I should like to see these great aerodromes vested in some joint body—either a company or a non-profit-making board—consisting of representatives of Newfoundland, Canada, the United States and Great Britain, because it is on the development of the aerodromes of Newfoundland that the prosperity of air inter-communication between the old continent and the new must be based.
  I know that the noble Viscount, the Leader of the House, wishes to leave; otherwise there were other points which I should have liked to raise. I hope that he will reassure us to-day that we shall get back to self-government in Newfoundland as soon as possible, which is what people in this country desire. We have the greatest confidence in him, and know that he would never do anything which he did not think in his conscience absolutely right. Although one can "kid" one's conscience a little, I doubt whether it is possible to "kid" a Cecil's conscience, and that is very reassuring. Although my noble friend has occupied many distinguished positions and will occupy many more, there is one which I should hate to see him try to fill, and that is that of a modern Lord North.
  VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: My Lords, the future of Newfoundland, I know, is a question which is of very special interest not only to your Lordships' House but also to the British people as a whole, and, as your Lordships well know, His Majesty's Government themselves showed that interest in no small measure in recent years, first by sending to visit the country my predecessor, the present Lord President of the Council, and later by sending the good-will mission to which the noble Lord, Lord Ammon has referred. I think that your Lordships owe a very real debt of gratitude to Lord Ammon for raising this question. It has led to a most valuable debate. This is the first time, I think, that the noble Lord has spoken in your Lordships' House, although he was a very old hand, if I may say so, in another place. I hope he will allow me most respectfully to congratulate him on what has been a very helpful and constructive maiden speech. I know that we shall look forward to hearing a great deal from him in the future.

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  It was particularly appropriate that Newfoundland should be the theme of the noble Lord's first speech in your Lordships' House, for, of course, it is a subject on which he speaks with an authority born of personal knowledge. He was the leader of the Parliamentary Mission which went out last year at the request of my predecessor, the present Lord President of the Council, and your Lordships will have seen from what he said to-day that he certainly did not waste his time while he was there. All the members of that Mission achieved most valuable results. They travelled the length and breadth of the island, and went even further afield, to Labrador. They mixed with the people and studied their way of life. The informal contacts which they made, and to which the noble Lord referred to-day, certainly gave them a real insight into local problems and trends of thought. I am very glad to have this opportunity of paying a tribute once again on behalf of the Government to the most admirable way in which the members of that Mission discharged their task.
  The Mission was not, of course, as the noble Lord himself would be the first to agree, a commission of inquiry. Indeed, as he and other members of the Mission have already emphasized here and in another place, the informal manner in which they carried out their tour contributed largely to its success. I say this partly in reply to the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon. There was therefore no question of their presenting a report for publication; they were not asked to do so. What they did—and we are very grateful to them for it—was to give their confidential impressions to the Secretary of State. As I say, they did give written statements, and they contained very valuable suggestions and recommendations, covering not only the constitutional field but the affairs and the activities of the island generally. I personally have found these impressions and suggestions of the greatest value, and I hope to refer to them again later on, if your Lordships will allow me to do so.
  Lord Ammon, at the very beginning of his speech, referred to the circumstances in which the Commission of Government was established in 1934. I do not want to follow him at any great
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  length over this ground. It has already been covered fully and authoritatively by the noble Viscount, Lord Bennett, and personally I want to concentrate upon the present and the future rather than on the past. I should like, however, to emphasize once more a point which is too often forgotten, and which I think was forgotten (although he had been listening to this debate) by the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon. It was not on the initiative of His Majesty's Government but at the pressing request of the Newfoundland Government and Parliament, at a time of serious crisis, that His Majesty's Government agreed to assume temporary responsibility for the island, and the Newfoundland Act of 1933 was passed by Parliament here. I do hope that noble Lords will get that into their heads, because it is essential. The suggestion which is constantly being made that we took away self-government from Newfoundland has no foundation at all.
  None of those who spoke for His Majesty's Government in this country at that time made any secret of the fact that it was only with very great reluctance that His Majesty's Government acquiesced in the course that was adopted. It was, however, quite unthinkable that they should stand aloof from the island's difficulties, and they felt bound to act on the appeal made to them from Newfoundland itself, based as it was, as your Lordships know, upon an exhaustive and fully-documented Report of a Royal Commission which had already explored, and rejected, all possible alternatives. I would emphasize that, because I think that Lord Ammon said that he regarded Commission Government as unfair both to the Commission and to the people. The Royal Commission explored every alternative before they came, rightly or wrongly, to their final decision.
  LORD AMMON: My Lords, I did not say that Commission Government was unfair; I referred to the way in which it was appointed, as not being sufficiently strong.
  VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: I misunderstood what the noble Lord, Lord Ammon, said. The Commission of Government has now, as the House knows, been in office for ten years, a period which falls into two almost equal parts—the five

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  years before the war and the war period. In the period 1934–1939 steady progress was made, though it was clear that the Commission could not have taken over at a mere difficult time, internationally as well as internally, and that its task in furthering the rehabilitation of the island would demand much patience, ingenuity and resource at a time when the trade of the country, on which its well-being depended, was so seriously handicapped by increasing complications in the international field.
  It would take a very long time for me to go into all the activities of the Commission and the various experiments which they made, with the object of opening up the island and expanding its economy, and there clearly would be no time for me to go into more than the very general headings to-day. They reformed the administration, overhauled the Customs tariff and the revenue collecting machinery, set up the Newfoundland Fisheries Board, and organized through it, in co-operation with the merchants, an improved system of marketing. They expanded and greatly improved the social and health services, including the rebuilding of the main hospital at St. John's and the provision of cottage hospitals at selected centres throughout the island. They gave increased grants for education, which has lately been made compulsory. They built roads, promoted agricultural development, set up a new Department to make surveys of geological possibilities; they launched experiments in land settlement, in co-operation, in the building of schooners; and they generally did all they could to give new life to the industries of the country, and to open it up to fresh enterprises. I am not pretending that there is not a great deal more to be done, but I should like just to say what has been achieved. I should here mention also that the Commission co-operated with the Air Ministry in building the vast Transatlantic airport at Gander—not at Goose Bay—an undertaking which was to prove of the greatest value to us in war-time, and which I am sure Lord Brabazon would agree will prove to be an immense asset to Newfoundland in the future.
  The Commission could not of course do all this without substantial assistance from home, and in the period before the war the island's Budget was only balanced by means of yearly grants in aid from the
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  United Kingdom Exchequer. In addition, loans or grants were made from the Colonial Development Fund. Taking the last year before the war—because I think it might be useful to the House to have one or two figures—the grant in aid for which provision was made from United Kingdom funds was £1,000,000, or about 4,500,000 dollars. This was equivalent to about 35 per cent, of the island's normal revenue, and the island was therefore still some distance from being fully self-supporting. At the same time, throughout this period, notwithstanding all the efforts of the Commission, the earnings of large numbers of the people were so low—and I think that was a point to which Lord Ammon drew attention—that they had to be assisted from public funds throughout the winter months.
  With the outbreak of the war a great change came over the scene. The island entered a completely new chapter in its history, and vast and far-reaching changes occurred. Newfoundlanders, as your Lordships know, are intensely patriotic people. They are never slow to answer the call when the Empire is in danger. Large numbers immediately joined the Navy and other branches of the Forces and the Mercantile Marine. Newfound land now has two artillery regiments serving with the Allied Armies, one of which has very greatly distinguished itself in Italy and in North Africa; there is a Newfoundland Air Squadron operating in this country; and a Newfoundland forestry unit has been doing most valuable work over here since the early days of the war. In addition to all these demands on its man-power, which are considerable, the island has had to find the men for important war purposes in the island itself. For the island has become, as your Lord ships know, a most important fortress for the North Atlantic, and a base not only for ships but for aircraft. The great American bases which are now established there have given rise to huge constructional projects. Canada, too, has been responsible for a large share of naval and air development, and at the same time the island has become by means of these bases infinitely more important for our own ships and aircraft.
  All these developments have contributed to an acute demand for Newfoundland man-power, and have resulted in an in flow of money into the island on an un-

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  precedented scale. At the same time, many of Newfoundland's natural products have been in high demand for export, both to this country and elsewhere, and man-power has been needed for the production of these. As a result, Newfoundland has for the last four years been in a boom period. Though expenditure has greatly increased as everywhere, with war demands and higher costs, revenue has increased to a height hitherto undreamed of in that island, and in the year just ended reached the record figure of 28,000,000 dollars, compared with some 9,000,000 dollars when the Commission took over in 1934, and 12,000,000 dollars just before the war broke out. For the last few years, indeed, as the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon, said, the boot has been on the other leg; instead of Newfoundland receiving annual grants in aid from this country, she has not only balanced her Budget, but has been building up a surplus, a large part of which she has lent to this country free of interest, for the prosecution of the war. I thought the noble Lord was unduly pessimistic about our own prospects, and I do not anticipate that there will be any difficulty in our repaying these loans when the time comes.
  It is very natural, indeed healthy, that with this dramatic change in the island's fortunes—and it is a very dramatic change —there should be much speculation both as to the country's economic prospects after the war and as to a possible return to responsible government. But while I think it is too early yet to forecast how Newfoundland is likely to fare after the war—and I do not think even the noble Lord, Lord Ammon, would attempt that rather speculative task—there is, I think, in the island itself a general realization that the present period of prosperity has arisen largely as a result of abnormal war conditions, and that the country is likely to be confronted with very many difficult problems in the transition period of adjustment from war to peace. Certain difficulties have, indeed, already shown themselves, as the peak of expenditure on defence works of all kinds has been passed.
  All the same, I think personally that we may hope that some of the developments of war-time have come to stay. For instance, in the field of civil aviation, to which Lord Brabazon referred, Newfoundland is bound to become a key-point
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  on the Transatlantic route. Her large airports provide first-class facilities—Goose Bay, in particular, is fairly free from fog—and I think we may confidently prophesy great developments in catering for the needs both of passengers and aircraft, as air travel grows. At the same time, however, we must face the fact that large numbers of men at present engaged in various war undertakings will inevitably be displaced when hostilities come to an end. These will have to be re-absorbed into useful employment and openings will have to be found for those returning from the Forces. Clearly a great deal will depend on a quick revival of trade, for Newfoundland depends on imports for many of the necessaries of life and she thus lives, as we do here, by her export trade, principally in fish, timber products, and minerals. In this situation, when the war-time conditions which have brought a sudden spell of unexampled prosperity may be succeeded by an uncertain future, Newfoundlanders generally are optimistic but cautious. I think the noble Lord, Lord Ammon, would agree with that assessment of the situation.
  Under the arrangements made in 1933, referred to by the noble Viscount, Lord Maugham, it was provided—I quote the words again—that
  "as soon as the island's difficulties are oval-come and the country is again self-supporting, responsible government, on request from the people of Newfoundland, would be restored."
  Newfoundlanders are, as Lord Ammon will agree, very mindful of this provision, though a considerable body of opinion clearly feels that the only safe course is to see how the island stands after the war before considering whether the time has come for a return to full responsible government. Opinion as to the form which such a change might take is equally very divided. Some no doubt would like a return, at a single plunge, to the form of responsible government previously enjoyed. Others, by accounts which I have received, would prefer a return to full self-government by stages. So far no dominating trend of opinion has declared itself in either direction.
  His Majesty's Government for their part recognize that it is not to be expected that Newfoundlanders will be in a position to make up their minds on this issue while the war is going on. For one thing, many of the younger people are out of the

  609
  country. But they feel that, as soon as possible after the war ends, the people of the island must be given full opportunity to review the position for themselves and decide on the path they want to tread. It must be their decision; it must not be our decision. It was against this background that the whale situation was considered first by myself, with the assistance of reports given to me by Lord Ammon and his colleagues, and later by the War Cabinet, with the result that an authoritative statement of policy was made in another place by the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, on behalf of the Government, on the 2nd December last.
  Your Lordships will perhaps bear with me if I quote this statement in full, as is gives a short and clear exposition of Government policy:
  "After reviewing the position the Government have decided that their policy should be based on the following main points:
  "The arrangements made in 1933 included a pledge by His Majesty's Government that as soon as the island's difficulties had been overcome and the country was again self-supporting, responsible government, on request from the people of New foundland, would be restored. Our whole policy is governed by this undertaking.
  "Owing, however, to the existing abnormal conditions caused by the war which make it impossible for the Newfoundland people as a whole to come to a considered conclusion as to the island's future prospects, there should be no change in the present form of Government while the war lasts.
  "As soon as practicable after the end of the war, that is, the war in Europe, machinery must be provided for enabling the Newfoundland people to examine the future of the island and to express their considered views as to the form of Government they desire, having regard to the financial and economic conditions prevailing at the time. In the meantime the Secretary of State will take soundings in order to ascertain what kind of machinery would be acceptable to the Newfoundland people.
  "If the general wish of the people should be for a return to full responsible government we for our part shall be very ready, if the island is then self-supporting, to facilitate such a change.
  "If, however, the general wish should be either for the continuance of the present form of Government or for some change of system which would fall short of full responsible government, we shall be prepared to examine such proposals sympathetically and consider within what limits the continued acceptance of responsibility by the United Kingdom could be recommended to Parliament.
  "In the meantime a vigorous attempt should be made to push on with the develop
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  ment of local government, on which the members of the Mission have made some interesting recommendations, as well as with general reconstruction plans. Every effort should he made to encourage the development of local government institutions, which would afford a base for an effective Central Government."
  That is the end of the statement. It will be seen from what I have said that His Majesty's Government's main objective is that the Newfoundland people after the end of the war in Europe should choose their own course for themselves. The noble Lord asked what further steps have been taken since that statement was made. The present position is as follows. Since the statement was made I have been in close consultation with the Governor and the Commission as to the most suitable form of machinery which might then be set up for enabling the Newfoundland people to review the position and give expression to their wishes, since it is the object of His Majesty's Government that all the details should be fully worked out before the war ends with a view to the machinery being in readiness to be brought into operation as soon as circumstances permit. It would be no good waiting until the end of the war and then starting to manufacture the machinery. We must get the machinery ready now. I have now arranged for two members of the Commission of Government to pay a visit to this country in the near future, in order that they may go personally into the whole matter with me. No final decision has yet been reached, and there are clearly many considerations which must be taken into acount, but I incline myself to the establishment of some form of National Convention, a suggestion which was first put to me by one of the members of the good-will mission.
  In the meantime it will be understood that it will not be for His Majesty's Government to gather opinions on the question of a change in the form of government: this will be for the National Convention or for such other body of Newfoundlanders as may be set up after the war for that purpose. It would be useless for us to pre-judge the consideration of the matter by the Convention by ourselves advocating this or that policy. For that reason I do not propose to go into the merits or demerits of any of the various possible courses this afternoon. There is, however, one aspect which I

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  should like to stress—namely, the interdependence of the constitutional and economic issues. As Lord Ammon mentioned, a country cannot enjoy self-government on any realistic basis unless it is financially independent and can stand on its own feet; hence the need for a review by Newfoundlanders of their future economic prospects before coming to conclusions on the constitutional issue. It is essential they should know where they stand. This explains why provision has been made for such a review, as a preliminary to any further steps, rather than for a straight plebiscite on the question of for or against the return of responsible government. At the same time, however, we must guard against the danger that constitutional progress may be impeded by uncertainty in the minds of the Newfoundland people as to the economic future, while at the same time uncertainty as to a possible change in the form of government may retard development and so impair the island's economic prospects.
  This is a dilemma which we must avoid, if possible, and it is one of the matters which I propose to discuss with the Commissioners when they come over in the near future. In the meantime, in answer to a point which was made by Lord Ammon in his opening speech, I would say that the Commission of Government are engaged in drawing up the outline of a long-term programme which might serve as a basis for reconstruction policy after the war, and it is my hope that ways and means may be found to ensure the continued financing of such a programme, irrespective of the conclusions which may be reached by the people of Newfoundland on the constitutional issue. That was a point which was made by the noble Lord and I think by other noble Lords, and I fully recognize its importance. In drawing up their long-term programme the Commission are taking into account the many valuable suggestions which have been made by Lord Ammon and his colleagues, and I hope that it will be possible for many of them to be adopted.
  I should hope to include in the development programme the question of housing to which Lord Ammon rightly drew attention this afternoon. He gave a terrible account of some very bad housing which he had seen, I think, in St. John's itself. I am sure he would not wish to give the
  612
  impression to your Lordships that this account which he gave was of universal or even general application. That would be, I think, a little unfair to Newfoundland. He gave to me the impression that he had sketched in the worst instances he had seen and that they were generalized into an account of Newfoundland housing. I am afraid that similar instances are to be found in this country; yet an immense amount has been done to improve housing in the years between the two wars. I am sure that he will agree with me that it would be wrong that the impression should go out that it is his view that all housing, or the general standard of housing, in Newfoundland was as bad as the houses which he described this afternoon.
  LORD AMMON: I think I had better put that right. I was making special reference to Bell Island and I suggested that there was bad housing in St. John's, but Bell Island was much worse.
  VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: I have referred very briefly to what one may term the long-term programme which we have in mind, but meanwhile it is not of course the intention of His Majesty's Government or the Commission that all development in the way of housing or of anything else must necessarily wait till the end of the war. I would not like to give that impression. On the contrary, the Commission are not only thinking and planning ahead as far as they possibly can, but they are already proceeding with certain development schemes within the limits imposed by war conditions. The noble Lord, Lord Ammon, mentioned fisheries. I would agree with him that there are immense potential markets in the United States and elsewhere for Newfoundland fish, and he will, I am sure, be glad to know that a far-reaching plan of fishery reorganization has recently been approved, designed both to make the fishing industry more compact by concentrating activity at selected centres and also to enable it to devote itself increasingly to the production (by the latest scientific processes) of frozen rather than of salted fish. There is no doubt that the market for frozen fish is potentially a very much larger one. The Newfoundland Government will itself participate in this new enterprise and a sum of 4,000,000 dollars has been allocated for the purpose. The balance of the capital required will be found by the industry itself. Consider-

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  able hopes are being placed on this scheme and, if successful, I am sure the House will agree it will be of far-reaching benefit to the island.
  Schemes have also been drawn up and are now under consideration dealing with agricultural expansion, land settlement and housing, the former (land settlement) with a view to settling demobilized men and their families on the land after the war, and the latter with the aim of improving the housing conditions and general amenities of the capital at an initial outlay of some 2,000,000 dollars. In the meantime, I think the House would like to know that a start is being made with the improvement of roads both in St. John's itself and in the country generally. I do not say it will not take some considerable time to make roads as good as they should be, but a start is being made.
  The Commission are also planning ahead as regards education and medical and nursing services, though in the latter field, as noble Lords will understand, they are rather severely handicapped at present by the difficulty in obtaining suitable personnel at a time when doctors and nurses are required in such numbers for the Armed Forces. Education, as I have already said, was made compulsory in 1942, a step which was made possible, as Lord Ammon knows, by the increased number of schools which have been provided since the establishment of the Commission of Government. The Commission are new most anxious to improve the standard of recruitment to the teaching profession in Newfoundland and I have recently myself approved proposals providing for a general increase in teachers' salaries which will, I hope, do much to raise the status of the profession and relieve teachers from financial anxieties resulting from the increased cost of living.
  There have been suggestions—I rather think the noble Lord made them this afterroon—that there ought to be a scientific survey of the whole of the island's resources. We should all be in agreement with the object which the noble Lord has-in mind, but it has, I believe, been found that in practice it is a matter which is best approached subject by subject. Your Lordships will appreciate that no one survey can suitably cover all the island's varied resources., fish, timber, minerals and so on, since each is a matter for
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  technical inquiry by experts in that particular field. Actually, great attention is being paid, and has been paid, under the Commission of Government to the island's mineral possibilities and as a result of the work of the Newfoundland Geological Survey these are now fairly thoroughly known. The same too can be said of the island's fish resources which are the subject of constant study and research both by the Government and the industry itself, and the two great paper companies in Newfoundland are unceasingly engaged in exploring new uses for Newfoundland timber. I have tried to give at some length an idea to the House of the activities which are at present going on and which are in contemplation, so that the Commissioners can at least have the credit which they deserve. I hardly think Lord Ammon gave them quite enough credit. They have had a very difficult time and l think they have done very well under the conditions in which they have been placed.
  There is one point to which the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon, referred, about Goose Bay. That was, I thought, really the most important part of his speech. The House always enjoys speeches by the noble Lord. He has a sort of genial buccaneerishness which is infinitely endearing and he has a sort of jovial ferocity which is pleasing even to those who are the recipients of it, but I do not think he was quite so helpful to-day as usual. I may be entirely wrong, but I seem to detect in his mind a suspicion that either the Canadian Government or His Majesty's Government, or both, have made rather a shady deal at the expense of the Newfoundland Government over Goose Bay. Really nothing is further from the truth than that. The initiative for the construction of this airfield at Goose Bay did not come from the Canadians at all. They were asked in 1941 to construct it by the military authorities for defence purposes and in particular to assist in the ferrying of aircraft from America to this country. On that basis they spent 24,000,000 dollars of Canadian money and they have produced results of infinite value to the cause of the United Nations.
  It was agreed by the Newfoundland Government itself—by the Newfoundland members as well as the United Kingdom members—that a lease should be granted

  615
  for 99 years to the Canadian Government for military purposes. The details of that lease, which is as I say for defence purposes, have not yet been finally agreed, but there will be in the lease provision that its use for civil aviation shall be left over for discussion between those concerned after the war. Clearly, as the Newfoundland Government will be a party to the lease, they will have a very strong position to protect their own interests in the matter. The noble Lord stressed this afternoon the considerations which he thought should be in the minds of His Majesty's Government and I can assure him that we are fully aware of those considerations.
  LORD BRABAZON OF TARA: Does the same apply to Gander as to Goose Bay?
  VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: I would like notice of that. It is not quite the same as Goose Bay. Gander is not a Canadian airport but Goose Bay is.
  LORD BRABAZON OF TARA: They are both in Newfoundland.
  VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: I would rather have a little notice with regard to Gander. I can assure the noble Lord we shall bear all these considerations in mind when the time comes.
  I do not think there is very much more that I can add this afternoon. I hope I have said enough to show that both His Majesty's Government and the Commission are fully alive to their responsibilities in relation to what is Britain's oldest Colony. No one rejoices more than we do that its dark hours of adversity have been replaced by a period of prosperity, and, difficult as the period of adjustment after the war may be and indeed is likely to be—as it is likely to be for all of us—I can assure your Lordships that both His Majesty's Government and the Commission will do all they can to enable the island to face the future with confidence. After the war, it will be for the Newfoundlanders themselves to review their prospects and make their choice as to the form of government they want. His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom for their part are fully content to leave that choice to them and we shall do our best to help them to move forward into a stable and prosperous future whatever their decision may be.
  LORD AMMON: My Lords, as I have already inflicted myself on your Lordships for some considerable period I have no wish to get a bad reputation by making another speech, though there were many items in the speeches of other noble Lords which one would like to traverse. I would say at once that I am sure the speech just made by the noble Viscount, the Secretary of State, will give great pleasure in Newfoundland. The people there will at least know that they are not forgotten and that we are having regard to their affairs. I extend to the noble Viscount my sincere thanks for the attention he has given in answering the questions. I would also like to thank the noble Viscount, Lord Bennett, for giving me the opportunity of making an acknowledgment of the work done at Corner Brook and Grand Falls by the paper companies. They have established what are really model towns and have done a splendid job of work. I would like also to acknowledge the work of the Grenfell Commission. May I tell the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Maugham, that I have read the Amulree Report more than once and indeed more than twice? I again thank the noble Viscount for his reply and I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
  Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

  NEUTRALS' EXPORTS TO GERMANY.
  LORD VANSITTART LORD VANSITTART asked His Majesty's Government whether they regard the export of wolfram to Germany by Portugal as consistent with Portugal's position as an ally of this country, and whether any statement can now be made as regards the export to Germany of wolfram from Spain, and ball-bearings from Sweden.
  The noble Lord said: My Lords, in rising to put the question which stands in my name I desire not only to elicit information but to state a view. If I speak with indiscretion I shall expect no reciprocity in official quarters. I have seen and heard of a great many different types of alliance, but I have never heard of one that covered the supply by one partner, even a comatose partner, of war material to the mortal enemies of the active partner to the alliance. Such goings-on seem to reduce the alliance to a farce and not a very pleasant one. The vocabulary

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  of diplomacy will have to be revised to cover all these new phenomena of neutral allies and hostile or unfriendly neutrals. Between them they have contributed in various degrees to the death of many of our fellow countrymen. I am glad indeed that tae Turks have realized that such proceedings are incompatible with the status if even a nominal ally. Our oldest ally Portugal seems to me to be still obdurate and I do not think it unreasonable to suggest that the assistance of our allies to our enemies, or the alliance itself, should terminate. We have shown every consideration, made every allowance during the period in which the position of the Allies—the real Allies—was sufficiently precarious to warrant some trimming on the pat of the neutral allies, and the unfriendly neutrals, but I submit that those days are long past and that even the most timorous might now quit the cross-roads. I remember at the beginning of the last war the French Ambassador in speaking of the Italians said, "Ils voleront au secours du vainqueur." I do not wish to overstress the point, but I think that a little volatility might recommend itself to those of the neutrals who still countenance the foulest losers in history.
  I was in Sweden myself for some time during the last war. The spirit of the country then was unfriendly to the Allied cause, very largely because it was Anti-Russian. I gladly admit that there has been a considerable change for the better in that respect. At the same time I do not think that anyone would pretend that the conduct of Sweden during this war has conformed to any hitherto known standard of neutrality, and I earnestly hope that the Swedes will not persist in this course to the bitter end lest somewhat bitter memories be left.
  As to Spain, I congratulate the Government on the agreement recently concluded and described yesterday in another place. I am sure we have all heard of that with pleasure and I imagine that it was not perhaps doubly unwelcome to the very Blue Division. At the same time I would like to add that it will require a little more than this agreement to efface from the minds of some of us the hostility with which the Allied cause has been treated for the greater part of this war. There has been a very definite tendency to put coloured shirts on the wrong horse. I hope that now there has been at least a tendency for the chastened punter to
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  hedge his bet, and I shall be better pleased when the entire bet has been laid off. I trust that that desirable consummation may be possibly hastened by the force of circumstances.
  THE EARL OF CARLISLE: My Lords, recent events have led the noble Lord, Lord Vansittart, to omit from his question the export of chrome from Turkey and have left him with the export of wolfram from Portugal and ball-bearings from Sweden, both extremely important articles. But of all shipments that have recently been made to Germany probably the most important to the functioning of the war machine are those of wolf ram and of chrome. I think everybody will agree that it is the duty of His Majesty's Government and the Governments of the Allied Nations to exert all possible pressure on the Governments of the exporting nations to see that they either prohibit altogether or at any rate reduce to a minimum the shipments to Germany. Particularly we have the results if the conferences that have recently been held at Ankara between the Turkish Foreign Minister, M. Menemenjoglu, our Ambassador, Sir Hughe Knatchbull-Hugessen and Mr. Steinhardt, the American Ambassador. These are indeed a matter of congratulation, both to the Turkish authorities and to His Majesty's Government. I understand from the debate in another place, which is reported in the Press this morning, that the same fortunate results have been achieved in Spain, and I hope that the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, in his reply, may be able to give us even more satisfactory information on the progress of the negotiations.
  I have just returned from a stay extending over the greater part of three years in Turkey where I was the chief representative of the United Kingdom Corporation. I was also a member, and for some time Chairman, of the Anglo-American Co-ordinating Committee, as well as a member and Chairman of the Anglo-American Purchasing Committee. I can therefore speak to your Lordships with some knowledge of the state of affairs in Turkey and what his been going on there. I found on my return to England—in my opinion at any rate—that there is, or was, some misconception of the Turkish attitude before the recent statements. People here seem to have thought that the very genuine feelings of good will and friendship towards us that

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  existed in Turkey were slipping away. That is not so at all. Right from the darkest period in the history of this war, after the collapse of France, and during the lean and difficult years of 1941 and 1942, when Turkey was in a very isolated position, she remained firm in her friendship with ourselves, and in her belief in a final Allied victory. We, on our part, have done a great deal to assist her. We have sent to Turkey an immense quantity of armaments, of foodstuffs, of railway locomotives and wagons, and of every conceivable kind of gear. Although great difficulties had to be overcome in matters of transport and other things—particularly after the German invasion and the closing of the Ægean Sea—these goods were continually sent.
  In spite of these efforts and in spite of the work of our Anglo-American Coordinating Committee in Ankara, the Turkish authorities found that if they were to maintain even the moderate state of efficiency that existed in regard to their railways and roads, their public services generally, and the standard of living of their people, they were bound to import goods from the Axis Powers, and in return they had to sell to the Axis Powers a certain amount of Turkish produce. It is true that until the end of 1943 no chrome went to Germany as it was all taken by the Allied Nations, and it is only since the expiry of that treaty that some has been sent. Therefore in acceding to our wishes to send no more chrome to Germany, I think that the Turkish authorities have played a great part on our side, and that it is incumbent upon us, so far is is possible in these days, that we should assist them in any way we can with their requirements in their time of difficulties.
  THE MINISTER OF ECONOMIC WARFARE (THE EARL OF SELBORNE): My Lords, I think your Lordships will agree that my reply to the interesting speeches to which we have just listened had better be quite short. I should like to thank my noble friend Lord Vansittart for his kindness in having postponed this question for a fortnight at my request. The reason why I made that request will now, I think, be apparent to your Lordships. During that period very satisfactory agreements have been made with two important neutral countries. Valuable as Parliamentary
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  discussion is at all times, it is not easy to debate such matters publicly while negotiations are actually proceeding. My noble friend has changed the terms of his question, which previously referred to Turkey, and I should like to take this opportunity of expressing my appreciation of the action taken by the Turkish Government in response to the request of His Majesty's Government. I was very glad to hear what my noble friend Lord Carlisle, who has rendered such important services to this country during the last three years in Turkey, has been able to tell us about that matter.
  My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary yesterday made a statement in another place regarding the agreement which has just been concluded with Spain, and the terms are now known to your Lordships. In this matter both the Allies and the Spanish Government have moved to meet each other's position, and we can rejoice that Spain is now to a greater extent asserting that neutrality which has been her proclaimed policy for some months past. This happy result is in no small measure due to the skill and patience of His Majesty's Ambassador at Madrid, Sir Samuel Hoare, and to the statesmanship of General Jordana, the Spanish Foreign Minister, whose advent to office has resulted in happier relations between Spain and the Allies.
  As your Lordships are aware, this agreement is by no means confined to the subject of wolfram, but I, as Minister of Economic Welfare, must emphasize the great importance of the wolfram clauses. Export licences for wolfram from Spain in 1943 averaged about 100 tons a month, but I should like to point out that under the influence of high prices, production of wolfram in Spain has been rising very rapidly. We calculate that in 1944 it was likely to average something like 400 tons a month. This agreement provides that the exports to Germany in 1944 cannot exceed 20 tons a month for May and June, and thereafter 40 tons a month. So your Lordships will see what a very great reduction in what otherwise might have been exported has been effected by this agreement. We should be in no doubt as to the vital importance of this mineral. Wolfram is the ore from which the mineral tungsten is extracted, and tungsten is an essential ingredient in high speed cutting tools without which production for war and many industrial purposes

  621
  must be seriously impaired. It is also an essential ingredient of certain most important munitions of war. We are satisfied that German stocks of this metal are low and, apart from the Iberian peninsula, Germany can replenish her stocks only by means of such blockade runners as can rim the gauntlet from the Far East. The notable diminution of supplies of wolfram from Spain brought about by the agreement, therefore, will necessarily have a very important influence on Germany's capacity to produce ammunition and weapons in the coming months.
  In regard to Portugal, I regret that I cannot say much, because negotiations are still continuing. I should like, however, to emphasize the fact that it would be idle to pretend that His Majesty's Government are satisfied with the situation, it which our Ally continues to supply vital material to the enemy, and we have left the Portuguese Government in no doubt as to our feelings in the matter. My noble friend also asks me whether I can made any statement with regard to ball-bearings from Sweden. As your Lordships are aware, the Swedish Government recently expressed their inability to agree to the request of the British and American Governments for an embargo on the export of ball-bearings to German-controlled Europe. As has already been stated in another place, we cannot regard the subject as closed by the Swedish reply, but there is nothing. I can usefully add at the moment.
  I think the United Nations are entitled to ask neutral countries to recognize the fact that their own independence depends on an Allied victory, and that at this stage in the war any country that delivers supplies of military importance to the Axis is assisting in the prolongation of the war. There is a heavy responsibility on all neutral Governments who value independence and liberty and whose people value independence and liberty to see to it that no act of theirs shall assist that evil force whose triumph would obliterate liberty from the world. The victories of the Allies have saved these countries from that horror, and will save them. The issue of the war is no longer in doubt, and the war can be materially shortened by withholding these vital supplies from Germany and much human slaughter and misery can be saved thereby. We have a right to ask neutrals to recognize that patent fact.

  PEERS' TRAVELLING EXPENSES.
  LORD ADDISON LORD ADDISON had the following Notice on the Paper: To call the attention of His Majesty's Government to the expense incurred by Peers, many of whom are engaged upon work of rational importance near their homes in the country, in travelling to London for the purpose of carrying out their Parliamentary duties there and to ask whether they will take this into consideration. The noble Lord said: My Lords, the little question which stands on the Paper in my name is of a very different character from the other matters which have been occupying our time to-clay, but I suggest that it is nevertheless of very substantial importance. I think it has been agreed on all hands that the debates in your Lordships' House during the war have served a very valuable national purpose, and the discussions which we have had to-day have been no less important and significant. That being so, we recognize that those members who are able to contribute to our debates render a notable public service; and it is right, I think, that we should take account of the difficulties under which many of them inevitably work at the present time.
  It is a long time since a salary was first voted to members of the House of Commons. I quite recognize that, in view of the very large number of difficult and complicated matters which would arise, questions of that sort are not appropriate for discussion here; but I do know, as a matter of fact, that a considerable number of members of your Lordships' House who occasionally have made noteworthy contributions to our debates, and who are themselves engaged in important national work in the districts in which they live, would wish to attend this House more often were it not for the expense of doing so. That is a fact which is not, I think, to be wondered at in these days. Notwithstanding the very large numbers of members of the Peerage who are usually absent from our debates, there is a substantial number of noble Lords of high distinction who take part in our deliberations so far as they can. It is because it was brought to my notice that a considerable number of members of your Lordships' House, and especially those who live at a distance find it impossible, in these days, to incur the expense involved by frequent attendance, or by attendance as much as they would

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  like or as the public interest would make desirable, that I raise this matter.
  The day has passed when this House consisted only of well-to-do people. What with taxation and so on even the pockets of the wealthiest have had substantial inroads made into them. Apart from that, a considerable number of members of this House are of moderate means, and in these days it would be true to say in some cases of small means. In view of the fact that the system has worked at the other end of the passage very successfully for many years, I think it is right that at all events the cost which a member of the Legislature necessarily incurs in discharging his duties should be taken account of by His Majesty's Government. That has been the case in regard to the other place for many years past. I raise this matter simply because I feel that it is not right that a number of members of this House should be deterred by considerations of expense from attending as they would wish to do in these days.
  My own view of what ought to be done goes a good deal further than the words on the Paper, but I should like to acknowledge that this subject has been a matter of informal and friendly discussion for quite a long time past, and that I have received most friendly guidance and help from the noble Viscount, the Leader of the House, and from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I sincerely hope that your Lordships will feel able to give this matter a friendly reception to-day. We cannot, of course, commit breaches of Privilege; we cannot decide anything which will mean an increase in public expenditure. All that we can properly do, I think, is to ask His Majesty's Government to consider the matter fairly in the light of all the circumstances. If they consider it favourably, no doubt they will make suitable proposals in the right place at the proper time.
  VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, I desire to associate myself briefly with whathas been said by the noble Lord, the Leader of the Opposition. The suggestion embodied in his question is very narrow in its scope, and for my own part I am glad that the noble Lord has not carried the matter further, although he says that his own view would have induced him to do so. This relates entirely to transport expenses, and does not in any way raise the question of Parliamentary salaries for
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  members of this House; it is not even the thin end of the wedge in that direction. I am sure that any suggestion of that kind would have been very widely disapproved in your Lordships' House, and would probably meet with even greater disapproval elsewhere.
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: My Lords, I do not think it would be right that this subject should be referred to only by the Leaders of the two Parties opposite. I feel it is appropriate that someone on the Back Benches should also give support to the proposal which has been made by the noble Lord opposite. I think the importance of the proposal is not really reflected in the number of noble Lords in the House to-day. It is a very important proposal, and one which deserves support from every one of us who tries to attend the debates in your Lordships' House. It is one which appeals to me as a Scottish Peer, not only for the reason which may occur to some of your Lordships that thrift is a national Scottish characteristic, but because the journey from Scotland is a good deal more expensive than the journey which many of your Lordships have to make in order to attend the sittings of your Lordships' House. For my part I welcome the proposal, and I hope that His Majesty's Government will give it favourable consideration.
  THE EARL OF CLANWILLIAM: My Lords, as my noble friend Lord Balfour of Burleigh has spoken for his friends north of the Tweed, may I say one word for my friends who come from a still further distance—namely, from Ireland, the South of Ireland especially? Before the last war this House used to be very often occupied in discussing Irish questions, and we used in those days to have a very large attendance of Irish Peers, which very often added to the interest of the proceedings. Since then the falling off in the attendance of my friends from both the North and the South of Ireland has been very noticeable, and I think I can say without fear of contradiction that during this war only two Peers from the North of Ireland have paid any attention to their duties in your Lordships' House. Those who come from the South of Ireland are in an even worse position, because we all know the difficulties which they have, and which prevent them from attending to their duties here as much as they would like to do. In their case

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  the expense is greater even than it is for the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Burleigh, and his friends, because the distance is much greater, and it is deplorable that this has prevented many friends of mine from attending the debates here. Therefore I gladly support the proposal of the noble Lord, Lord Addison.
  LORD GRANTLEY: My Lords, I have every sympathy with the question of the noble Lord, Lord Addison, but could any arrangement be made for a Committee of the House to study this matter? I only ask the question as a humble student of the history of this House and a great admirer of the immense prestige which it has. Many years ago its prestige was less than it is to-day. To-day it is a very live factor in the country, and people of all classes admire the debates that take place in your Lordships' House. I wonder whether we should not have a close study of the question, because perhaps some of the prestige of the House might disappear if it were felt in any way that money, either for travelling expenses or anything else, were received by the members of your Lordships' House.
  VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: My Lords, the point which has been raised by the noble Lord, Lord Addison, in his question is clearly one which has become of in creasing importance to members of your Lordships' House. In the old days before the war we were all of us a good deal better off, and, in addition, the majority of Peers had houses in London where they lived during the Session, so that the problem of travel largely did not arise. Now the situation is very different. Whatever our position was before the war, the heavy hand of taxation has fallen upon all. Most people have had to give up their London houses and nearly all the members of your Lordships' House are doing work of national importance in their own country districts, very often at a great distance from London, and, to make things worse, the cost of travelling has, I think, considerably increased. This, as I know from my own experience, seriously interferes with the ability of noble Lords to fulfil their duties in this House. I have had many examples, in the two years since I have been Leader, of Peers who had important contributions to make on subjects upon which they were experts, but who simply could not afford to come up for the debates.
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  That, surely, is a profoundly unsatisfactory state of affairs. Noble Lords have their duties to do as legislators and it clearly cannot be right that they should not be in a position to perform them.
  There could of course be no question of salaries for Peers: that would be quite contrary to the traditions of your Lordships' House. But payment of their bare out-of-pocket expenditure on railway travel, just to enable them to perform their Parliamentary duties, comes in rather a different category, and I believe it deserves proper consideration. With regard to the point which the noble Lord, Lord Grantley, has just raised about the setting up of a Committee I ought perhaps to say that when the matter was first raised by the Leader of the Opposition we did set up a small unofficial Committee, including the Leaders of various Parties and other experienced members of your Lordships' House, and it was in the light of their discussions that the noble Lord has now pit down his question. Therefore I hardly think that it would be necessary to set up another Committee for this purpose. I would suggest that I should bring this matter to the notice of my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I shall be very glad to do that and I hope that it may receive a sympathetic response if and when it comes to be considered in another place.
  LORD ADDISON: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Viscount and the other noble Lords who have spoken for their contributions to this discussion.

  GILLINGHAM CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
  Reported, with Amendments.
  CITY OF LONDON (VARIOUS POWERS) BILL.
  King's consent signified and Bill reported without amendment.

  PONTYPOOL GAS ORDER, 1944.
  Report from the Special Orders Committee that no Petition has been presented praying to be heard against the Special Order, and that there is nothing in this Order to which they thick it necessary to call the attention of the House.
  Read and ordered to lie on the Table.
  House adjourned.