Lords Sitting of 25 July 1944

Preamble
The House met, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers.

CHESTERFIELD AND BOLSOVER WATER BILL.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (LORD STANMORE): My Lords, the agents for the Promoters have been unable to comply with the Standing Order, but manuscript copies of the Amendments have been sent to the Government Departments concerned and, as there is no opposition to the Amendments, I hope that in the circumstances your Lordships will agree to the suspension of the Standing Order.
Moved, That Standing Order No. 173 be considered in order to its being dispensed with in respect of the said Bill.—(Lord Stanmore.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.— (Lord Stanmore.)
On Question, Bill read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

LIABILITIES (WAR-TIME ADJUSTMENT) BILL.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT SIMON): My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to provide for the adjustment and settlement of debts and liabilities arising in certain areas and to amend the Liabilities (War-Time Adjustment) Act, 1941; and to move that the Bill be read the first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

HOUSING (TEMPORARY PROVISIONS) BILL.
Brought from the Commons, and read 1a.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Cranborne, I beg to move the Motion standing in his name.
Moved, That Standing Orders Nos. XXI and XXXIX be considered in order to their being suspended until the House adjourn for the Recess, and that, until that date, Government business have, except with the consent of the Government, precedence of other Notices and Orders of the Day.—(Lord Templemore.)
On Question, Motion agreed to and ordered accordingly.

FOOD AND DRUGS (MILK AND DAIRIES) BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Duke of Norfolk.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[The LORD STANMORE in the Chair.]
Clause 1:
Amendment of s. 20 of principal Act.
1.—(1) The power of making Milk and Dairies Regulations under Section twenty of the principal Act shall, instead of being exercised by the Minister of Health, be exercised jointly by that Minister and the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries.
(2) Regulations made under paragraph (a) of subsection (1) of the said Section twenty for the registration of dairies, and of persons carrying on or proposing to carry on the trade of dairymen, shall provide—
(b) for the refusal of any such registration by that Minister if in his opinion, having regard to conditions existing at the premises to be registered, the regulations cannot be complied with and the registration should be refused, and for the cancellation of any such registration by that Minister if in his opinion the regulations are not being complied with and the registration should be cancelled.
(3) Any regulations made by virtue of paragraph (b) of the last foregoing subsection shall—
(c) provide for the reference of any such objection to a tribunal constituted in accordance with the regulations;
LORD TEVIOT LORD TEVIOT moved, in paragraph (b) of subsection (2), after "and," where that word last occurs, to insert "therefore that." The noble Lord said: On behalf of my noble friend Lord Bledisloe, I beg to move this Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 22, after ("and") insert ("therefore that.")—(Lord Teviot.)
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (THE DUKE OF NORFOLK): The clause as it stands enables the Minister to exercise his discretion in special circumstances and to refrain from cancelling registration, not-withstanding that in his opinion the regulations have not been complied with. The suggestion underlying the Amendment appears to be that should this Amendment be accepted, the Minister would be in the position of having automatically to cancel the registration. As that is not intended, I hope the noble Lord will not press the Amendment.
LORD TEVIOT: I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD TEVIOT LORD TEVIOT moved in paragraph (c) of subsection (3), to substitute "an independent" for "a." The noble Lord said: In moving this Amendment I wish in a few words to make an explanation and to ask my noble friend one or two questions. I have studied this question very considerably and I cannot see why an independent tribunal should be be objected to. I have read the debate in the other place and while I find really no reason for objecting to an independent tribunal I do find many very cogent reasons why the tribunal should be independent. I notice that my right honourable friend the Solicitor-General seemed to be of the opinion that the tribunal should be an expert one. I cannot see why it should not be an expert tribunal and also at the same time an independent tribunal. My information is that in the past when these cases were tried it was distinctly laid down that nobody interested in the Ministry of Agriculture or in the particular farm could adjudicate upon them in court, and I ask my noble friend, where is the necessity for the alteration in that custom? There are many persons throughout the country with a great deal of practical experience extending
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over many years who could be found to become members of this tribunal. In fact, I should think that their practical experience, which is just what is wanted in this matter, must be far greater than that of any member of the Ministry. Without any difficulty I can think of two or three men who would most admirably fill the position of members of the tribunal and who would be completely independent.
Let me explain why I regard this matter with considerable anxiety. It is most important, I am sure your Lordships will agree, that the person concerned shall be satisfied that his or her case has had a really fair deal, because it may mean the whole livelihood of the individual concerned. As an illustration, suppose there was a private Bill before your Lordships' Committee upstairs: it would be most improper if one of your Lordships who happened to be interested in the controversy should sit on that Committee. I feel absolutely certain that no member of your Lordships' House would do so. That seems to me very analogous to what is suggested is going to take place with regard to this tribunal. I cannot believe that your Lordships or the country will want a tribunal which will be undoubtedly weighted on the side of the Minister by having one of his officers sitting upon it. It seems to me that it puts that officer in an impossible position. He has to bear in mind all the evidence, which I take it he would have before him, and at the same time try to eliminate his own knowledge when thinking of the position of the person who is bringing the case before the tribunal. Again I cannot believe that the Minister himself, whoever he may be in the future, can really want this. Surely he must wish to be advised by a tribunal which brings to him a report that cannot possibly be influenced by his own Ministry which has to implement the regulations.
If any of us want advice on a subject, do not we take very good care that we go to a person who will be completely unprejudiced and quite independent? I am not suggesting for a moment that a sense of fairness will not actuate the Minister or members of the tribunal no matter how it is composed, but I am anxious about those people who are going to have their cases tried and the great necessity there is that they should be absolutely satisfied.

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I am hoping that the Minister himself will come to the conclusion, after further consideration, that everyone will be far happier with my Amendment in the Bill. The Amendment does not rule out anybody. It just desires that the tribunal should be composed of fair-minded Britishers and that the custom shall be continued, which I understand has been observed in the past, that tribunals of this nature shall be independent and that great care shall be taken that they be both independent and impartial.
The question of clean milk is, I know, all-important and no one is keener on that than I am, but I cannot understand why the word "independent" should jeopardize in any way the question of clean milk. The question at issue seems to me a quite simple one. It is this: Have or have not the regulations been complied with, or will they quite certainly not be complied with? There is really no difficulty about this at all. What I want, and what I feel sure my right honourable friend the Minister must want, is that there shall be no possible risk of bias or prejudice in this matter. With the best will in the world I am of the distinct opinion that unless this Amendment is made there will be grave danger of injustice and dissatisfaction. I hope my noble friend who is to reply will tell us why an independent tribunal is not desired, and why it should be considered that if a tribunal is independent it will not be competent. Undoubtedly there have been many tribunals which have been both. The Minister, whoever he may be, will be adequately protected because no matter what report he receives he will undoubtedly consult with the high officers in his Department. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 12, leave out ("a") and insert ("an independent").—(Lord Teviot.)
THE DUKE OF NORFOLK: The Amendment which has been moved by my noble friend is, of course, the same Amendment that was debated in another plane. Under the Bill it is for the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries to register dairies, farms and dairy-farmers and Clause 1 (2) (b) deals with the refusal and cancellation of registration. Clause 1 (3) provides for an appeal by a farmer to a tribunal when the Minister has given notice of his intention to refuse or
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cancel a registration. This tribunal, in accordance with a suggestion made by the Solicitor-General in another place, is restricted to dealing with facts, that is to say, whether the regulation can be or is being carried out. The further question whether the regulation is being or not being complied with, and whether therefore there should be cancellation, remains one for the decision of the Minister. The Solicitor-General said in another place—and this without challenge—that this approach to the problem, that is the separation of the sphere of facts and the determination of facts from that of the operation of this policy by the Minister, had been unanimously accepted by the House. The function of the tribunal would be to examine the facts in relation to the technical question whether or not the conditions existing are fit for the production of milk and, if they are not, whether they can be so made.
If I may try in my own way to express to your Lordships' House what I think will happen, it is this: When the farmer—who has been told in the first case that he may not produce milk, and in the second case that having already been producing milk he may not continue to produce milk—makes an appeal to the tribunal, that tribunal will not be a body of people sitting round a table who will call upon the farmer to produce his witnesses and then discuss among themselves whether or not a case is actually being made out. What they will in fact do is to visit the farm in question and make an inspection of it and consider whether or not the place is fit for the production of milk. If milk has already been produced on that farm and the farmer has been told that the conditions are not being complied with, then the tribunal will consider whether or not it is possible for that farmer to comply with the conditions, in fact, whether or not he has been guilty of not carrying out the regulations. It is for that reason absolutely imperative to my mind that experts who themselves know what is required on a farm should be allowed to carry out the inspection. If I understood him aright, my noble friend when moving his Amendment said that if we accepted it and the word "independent" was inserted in the Bill it would rule nobody out from sitting on the tribunal. But one of the reasons why we cannot accept the word "independ-

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ent" is that it may be that somebody we want to call in, somebody who really knows his job, might not be independent. Therefore if the word "independent" is inserted certain people would be automatically ruled out. The Minister and the Solicitor-General both gave explicit assurances in another place that they would give very careful consideration to the constitution of this tribunal. The constitution of it will be part of the regulations when they are laid down by the Minister, and before those regulations come into force they have to be laid before both Houses of Parliament, so that in your Lordships' House and in another place there will be plenty of opportunity to discuss them. I sincerely hope that the noble Lord will accept my explanation and will not press his Amendment.
LORD TEVIOT: I would like to refer to one or two remarks that fell from my noble friend. As regards visits to farms, surely they are more likely to bring out the facts if the individuals making the visits are practical farmers themselves. I should very much doubt whether any officials in the Ministry would have the very intimate and technical knowledge possessed by practical farmers. I do not wish that one of the Ministry's own officials should be on the tribunal because I have a feeling that that might lead to dissatisfaction on the part of a person whose livelihood might be taken away. If it were felt that the question was being brought forward under the regulations which are implemented by the Ministry, and that the Ministry was represented on the tribunal that was trying this case, I am quite certain that most men or women would say: "Well, I don't like this at all." I said purposely that I did not rule out anyone. That definitely means anyone who is independent and can be so regarded. I am loth not to agree to the appeal which the noble Duke has made in his very adequate reply, especially in view of the fact that so far as I can see no one is going to speak in favour of my Amendment. I have registered my opinion, and I think that under the circumstances it would be very unwise for me to occupy the time of your Lordships in dividing the Committee, as the Amendment would not get very far. Therefore, I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 1 agreed to.
Clause 2:
Amendment of s. 21 of principal Act.
(3) Regulations made under paragraph (b) of the said subsection (1) shall provide, as respects any special designation of raw milk, for the granting by the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries, instead of by the Minister of Health or county councils or local authorities, of licences to producers of raw milk authorizing the use of that special designation.
LORD TEVIOT LORD TEVIOT moved, in subsection (3), after "local," to insert "sanitary." The noble Lord said: On behalf of my noble friend Viscount Bledisloe, I beg to move this Amendment which stands in his name.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 38 after ("local") insert ("sanitary").—(Lord Teviot.)
THE DUKE OF NORFOLK: If this Amendment were accepted it would mean having to amend the principal Act. It is merely copying from that, if I may say so. Exactly the same consideration applies to the two later Amendments which are on the paper in the name of Lord Bledisloe, and I think that my noble friend only put them down as drafting Amendments. They really are not necessary and I hope that they will not be pressed.
LORD TEVIOT: I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Clause 2 agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
Schedule agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment.

DIPLOMATIC PRIVILEGES (EXTENSION) BILL. [H.L.]
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.

HERRING INDUSTRY BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD ALNESS: My Lords, this Bill is designed to secure the rehabilitation of the herring fishing industry. Yes, my Lords, "rehabilitation" is the right word, because, as your Lordships must be well aware, the herring fishing industry, during recent times, has passed through very dark and difficult days. Our fishermen are scattered all over the

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Seven Seas on national service. Their boats and their equipment are obsolete. The markets on which they relied have either been severely abridged or completely lost. Rescue work is therefore necessary if the industry is to survive. This Bill, accordingly, sets out to provide a stabilized and secure economic future for the fishermen concerned—for a race of men whom I venture to describe as worthy as well as hardy. Moreover, the Bill is further intended to provide obvious nutritional advantages for the whole population of the country.
The Bill comes before your Lordships with excellent credentials. It is endorsed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, by the President of the Board of Trade, by the Minister of Food, by the President of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries and by the Secretary of State for Scotland. I would like, if I may, to pay a special tribute to the services which have been rendered by two ex-Secretaries of State for Scotland—namely, Sir John Colville, now Governor of Bombay, and Colonel Walter Elliot, Member for the Kelvingrove Division of Glasgow, who were in succession Chairmen of a Departmental Committee which went into the whole question of the present problems of the fishing industry, and on whose recommendations, in their Report, this Bill is based. I should also like, if I may, to pay a humble tribute to my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland who, in this matter, as in many others, has proved himself to be not only a visionary but a realist.
In accordance with his customary technique, my right honourable friend, before the Bill was presented in another place, made it his business to engage in patient negotiation with the herring industry as a whole, and in the result, it is not too much to say, the Bill came before another place as a substantially agreed measure. The best illustration of that, perhaps, is that there was not a single Division with regard to any one of its provisions; there was not a single unofficial Amendment moved; and not the slightest conflict arose in the course of the debate in another place, between the provisions of the Bill as they affect England and the provisions of the Bill as they affect Scotland.
While all that is so, I should be the last to suggest to your Lordships'
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House that you should accept the Bill at its face value. Your Lordships, if I may respectfully say so, have the right and duty to examine the measure on its merits, and to form and express your Lordships' opinion both on the content and on the intent of the measure. That I respectfully invite your Lordships now to do. If your Lordships will bear with me for just a few minutes, I think I can single out the salient points in the Bill, which I shall presently invite your Lordships to read a second time. Clause 1 of the Bill provides, as was recommended by the Departmental Committee, for grants up to a total of £820,000 being made towards the provision of boats, gear and nets where these cannot be provided without such assistance. These grants may be made in each case up to one-third of the cost of the boats, gear and equipment, and there too the Bill echoes the recommendation of the Departmental Committee.
Under Clause 2, which confers additional powers upon the Herring Industry Board—these powers are suspended in the meantime by a Defence Regulation—the Board will, when its powers are restored, be enabled to make schemes, subject to approval by Ministers and to affirmative Resolutions in Parliament, for the purchase of boats and equipment for charter or hire to suitable applicants. Further, they will be empowered to arrange for the refrigeration and processing of such proportion of the herring catch as they think suitable, having regard to two considerations: first of all, providing a supply of herrings for the public all the year round; and secondly, providing for glut conditions, which have had somewhat unfortunate results. The clause will also enable the Board to regulate the conditions under which processing is to proceed, and finally to arrange for a proportion of the proceeds of the first sales of herring to be pooled among fishermen, and so to eliminate undue profits on the part of any one boat. I am assured that the last proposal has the assent of the entire fishing industry.
Clause 3 makes provision for the payment of grants during five years after the passing of the Bill up to a total of £250,000 towards the expenses to be incurred by the Board. Of this total a sum of not more than £75,000 may be allocated to administrative expenses.

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Clause 4 makes provision, on the lines of former Herring Industry Acts, within a period of five years from the passing of the Bill, for advances to the Board from voted moneys of the sum of £1,700,000 for loans to fishermen and for the other purposes which are enumerated in the clause, and which I do not propose to deal with in detail. Clause 5 provides for the extension by Ministerial order of the five-year period to which I have referred, during which financial aid is to be available to fishermen, if it should be found that during these five years, owing to circumstances which your Lordships will readily conceive, fishermen and the Board hive not had an opportunity of taking the advantage of these provisions which it is anticipated they might. In that case the period may be extended for not more than three years.
Clause 6—an important clause—increases the borrowing powers of the Board, which under the Herring Industry Act of £1935 were £1,000,000, to £2,500,000 Clause 7 provides that if it appears to the Board to be practicable and desirable to make provision for the election of members of the Board, the Board are to prepare their proposals for that purpose, and thereupon the Ministers are required to lay the proposals before Parliament with a report upon them, setting out their own views with regard to them. Clauses 8 and 9 are minor and formal in character, and I do not feel justified in detaining your Lordships by referring to them in detail. Such in brief is the outline of the Bill to which I invite your Lordships to give a Second Reading.
I wonder if your Lordships will allow me in conclusion to strike a personal note. It was my privilege and pride to represent a fishing constituency in another place for nine years, and I confess that I conceived a sincere admiration and even affection for the fishermen engaged in the industry. I early recognized that these men had proved their national worth both in time of peace and in time of war. Instead, however, of trying to pay what your Lordships might regard as empty verbal compliments to this great industry, I had rather, if your Lordships will permit me, relate a little incident of the last war, which I think illustrates far better than any poor words of mine could do the type of men whose lot this Bill is intended to safeguard and to better. On a December night in the North Sea, a minesweeper
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manned by fishermen was sunk by an enemy submarine in the approved German fashion, without warning and without mercy. The crew escaped on a raft. They were tossed through a long winter night on a tempestuous sea, with an icy wind blowing, and with scarce a rag on their backs. But they made the land. And what do your Lordships suppose that they then did? They went round to the nearest shipping office and signed on, every man of them, for the next voyage. Such is the type of men whose lot this Bill is designed, as I say, to safeguard and to better. One is proud to belong to the same breed as these men. One is proud to be able to sponsor a measure which is designed for the advantage—nay, for the salvation—of their high and hazardous calling. I beg to move that the Bill be read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Alness.)
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, I make no apology for saying a word of welcome to the Bill, but I rise to draw attention to what I consider to be a misuse of language in the drafting of the Bill. Your Lordships will find that continually through the Bill, beginning with Clause 1, there is a reference to "boats and "equipment" I know something of the herring industry and of the fishermen, and "equipment" is a word which is never found in their vocabulary. When the noble Lord introduced the Bill to your Lordships he did not use that word, but referred to Clause 1 as dealing with the provision of "boats, gear and nets." "Gear" is the word which all fishermen use. It is a perfectly proper word, and I submit to your Lordships we should be jealous that words beloved in Whitehall but unused by the lieges in their callings do not find their way into Acts of Parliament. I did not give my noble friend notice that I was raising this objection, but I would ask him to consider between now and the Committee stage whether we could not have an Amendment to change this odious word "equipment" into a word that is understood by the men to whom the Bill will apply—namely, "gear".
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

ISLE OF MAN (CUSTOMS) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Clifden, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord Templemore.)
On Question, Bill read 3a, and passed.

INDIA: POLITICAL SITUATION.
LORD STRABOLGI LORD STRABOLGI rose to ask His Majesty's Government, whether they are in a position to make a statement on the present political situation in India; and to move for Papers.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, for some time your Lordships have been promised by the Government an opportunity of discussing affairs in India and for the Government to make some statement as to what has been happening there. My noble friends were good enough to ask me to take advantage of this opportunity to-day, and also for my noble friend Lord Faringdon to raise the other side of the matter, the food situation in India. We deliberately decided to put down two questions, because we remembered that the charming manner of the noble Earl, Lord Munster, who usually replies on India, hides a very adroit debater, and we knew from the past that if we put the matter into one question he was quite capable of taking one subject at great length and ignoring the other. So we decided, in our wisdom (we also have some guile in political matters), that we would put down two questions. That is why my noble friend and myself are apparently separated, although I support him on the very important matter which he will presently raise.
My noble friends and myself, when we discussed this matter, decided that what we primarily need is information. We want the facts if we can have them from the Government. There has been a fierce censorship in India, both military and political. Even on the military side there has been complaint that the censorship seems to be aimed, at least in part, at preventing news reaching the British people and not primarily, or not wholly,
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at preventing that news reaching the enemy. But the political censorship has been most rigid, and it is very difficult indeed to obtain information as to what has been taking place on the political scene. I do not wish to go into the past. We decided that we would look to the future. I must, however, remind your Lordships that when we were in a weak position in 1942 and the Japanese threat to India was serious, the Cripps offer was made. My right honourable friend Sir Stafford Cripps was sent out to India on behalf of the Government and he was authorized to make certain suggestions and an offer to the various political Parties. This offer not only was made, but it was made perfectly clear, as has been reiterated since, that it stands. There was no question at all of the Indians of the various sections and groups having to accept it at that time or else it would be withdrawn. That was not the attitude adopted at all. There was no time-limit; indeed there could not be a time limit.
As I have said, we have no desire to dwell on the past, but we wish to look to the future, and now that the danger of a Japanese invasion has passed and the war everywhere is going well, it is surely unthinkable that what I have called the policy of the Cripps Mission should be thrown overboard. I am quite sure that no responsible British Government could countenance such an act of bad faith. We received one important piece of news from India, despite this censorship, about a fortnight ago, when Mr. Gandhi gave a long and remarkable interview to Mr. Stuart Gelder, a well-known journalist representing the News Chronicle, who saw him at Panchgani. This interview has been widely reproduced in the British and American newspapers. Certain features stand out from the pronouncement which Mr. Gelder made public. The first is that Mr. Gandhi was prepared to recommend to his colleagues on the Working Committee of Congress the acceptance of what was in effect the Cripps offer, that is an Indian National Government composed of leading elements and Parties, but with Army and Defence and war-like operations managed and controlled by the Viceroy and Commander-in-Chief. Secondly, Mr. Gandhi approved the proposed terms of a settlement of the Moslem question drawn

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up a year ago by Mr. Rajagopalachari, which in effect grant self-determination to the regions with Moslem majorities, these regions to be settled as to their area in advance. This was obviously, therefore, not only an acceptance in principle of Pakistan, but it gave a great advantage to its advocates in that they could draw up the boundaries of the areas which would vote or hold plebiscites as to whether they wish to remain a part of united India or to enjoy federal independence.
The third feature was that the right to independence in India after the war be agreed. In effect, this has been agreed, for Dominion status to-day does carry within it the same rights of independence as sovereign independence, and that was made perfectly clear on behalf of His Majesty's Government at that tine by Sir Stafford Cripps in his negotiations. That is all on record, we need not dispute about that. Fourthly, that there is to be no return to civil disobedience. I notice in to-day's News Chronicle that the same journalist had a further talk with Mr. Gandhi, and Mr. Gandhi makes no secret of the fact that he made a mistake over civil disobedience and he is prepared to climb down. Fifthly—and this is, of course, only a summary of this long interview of which I am giving only the main and salient features—Mr. Gandhi would not allow his creed of non-violence to obstruct the Congress in giving help in the prosecution of the war, which in effect means that the Congress would support the war effort. I am sure the noble Earl, or whoever speaks for His Majesty's Government, will not belittle the importance of those declarations, and those who know Mr. Gandhi personally, as I do, and as the noble Earl does, will recognize that this is a remarkable change of front. To raise unnecessary suspicions about it now and pretend it does not matter—as I notice with great regret that the Delhi correspondent of The Times has been busy doing—is to be below the level of events.
The questions I propose to ask His Majesty's Government on behalf of my noble friends, of which I gave notice to the noble Earl, are three. First, what information have His Majesty's Government about these matters? Secondly, can His Majesty's Government see in this declaration and in these developments the long-awaited chance to break the present deadlock
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in India? Thirdly, what do His Majesty's Government intend to do or to advise His Excellency to do? In particular, we should like to know whether opportunities are to be granted to the imprisoned Congress leaders to consult with Mr. Gandhi and with each other. As I said, I am not dwelling on the past. I am not posing the question in a hostile manner. We are looking to the future. We certainly see more than a ray of hope, and we trust that His Majesty's Government are in a position to give us some good news. I beg to move for Papers.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, I am glad that the noble Lord has put down this Motion, if only to enable some of us to express our views on the very important points he has raised. I am sure no one in this House or outside, who has followed the war so far as it has affected India, can help being impressed by the tremendous voluntary military effort that is being made by India towards winning the war. At the same time I believe that no sound thinking person either in India or in this country would consider the withdrawal from India at the present time of our troops so long as the war in the Far East is going on. It would be quite impracticable for such a thing to happen.
LORD STRABOLGI: That was never suggested by me in the few remarks I made, and it is not part of our proposals at all.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: I did not say that the noble Lord had said that. I have not come to his remarks. I am coming to them. I am not altogether in agreement with what he did say, and perhaps when I have finished he will be in utter disagreement with some of the things I shall say. If so, I hope he will forgive me. As I say, withdrawal from India at the present time would, during the war, be quite impracticable and quite wrong. That is the considered view of His Majesty's Government. I go so far as to say—and here perhaps I differ from the noble Lord—that the differences of opinion must be bridged over between the Hindus and the Mahomedans before our pledge in respect of Indian independence or Dominion status, whichever you like, can be fulfilled. If we were to permit Indian independence or Dominion status under the conditions existing in India to-day, in regard to the differences be-

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tween castes and religions, we should be failing in the responsibilities that we have, and towards our heritage and what has been handed down to us. It is certain if we were to do such a thing directly after the war, as my noble friend suggests, India would revert to a state of anarchy, and the progress India has made during the past two centuries under British guidance and with British help—I am proud to be able to state that fact—would be, if not entirely lost, at any rate nearly lost altogether.
There is one point I feel I must touch upon because it is of tremendous importance in this settlement of India. There is one individual in India—I have not the same regard for him as has the noble Lord who has spoken—who, I say without hesitation, is the greatest obstacle to a settlement and the biggest bamboozler of the century and in Far Eastern history. He has bamboozled many of his own countrymen for years, and I am sorry to say he has bamboozled a good many people in this country as well. One of his greatest tricks of bamboozlement is the art he has devised of self-inflicted starvation just up to the point of dying. In this way he preys on the sympathies of the Indian peoples and leads them into further difficulties. The noble Lord has suggested that a meeting between the Viceroy and Mr. Gandhi would be of advantage in obtaining a settlement. There has been a certain amount of criticism that Lord Wavell has not accepted the request of Mr. Gandhi that he should see him. There has been a good deal of criticism in India, and there has been criticism here, but I suggest that that is a matter which should be left to Lord Wavell to decide. The Viceroy has all the strings in his hands and knows what is going on. You must trust the man on the spot who has all these tremendous responsibilities on his shoulders to-day and knows all the turns of the game as it exists in Lord Wavell is a man of exceptional calibre, a man with fine administrative and military qualities, all of which he has shown. There is no question about his military qualities, and as far as his administrative qualities are concerned he has shown by his actions since he has been in India his outlook on these subjects, his keen sympathies with the peoples of that
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country, his intense interest in trying to lead India into that path which will enable her to achieve the independence which she is seeking.
Here I should like to add a word of commendation of the right honourable gentleman, the Secretary of State for India, Mr. Amery. I have known him for many years, and I know his keen sympathy with the Indian peoples. At a time when there was a good deal of controversy in this country, in which I took some part myself, I am aware of the attitude that Mr. Amery adopted to give India much greater control of her own affairs than many of us at that time were prepared to do. My own view is that, with Mr. Amery here and Lord Wavell in India, we should be prepared to leave these matters which the noble Lord has touched on very largely in their hands to solve. With the lack of information which we have in this country to-day, owing to the fact that so few people can go to India and see what is going on for themselves, and can only know of it by chance conversation or what they read in the Press, I am sure that we should trust the Secretary of State and the Viceroy to do the best for India in present circumstances.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA AND BURMA (THE EARL OF MUNSTER): My Lords, I gather from the speech to which your Lordships have listened from the noble Lord who moved the Motion that it is the desire of himself and of his noble friend Lord Faringdon to discuss their Motions separately for reasons which he gave to your Lordships. On this occasion I shall confine my remarks to the political situation, but nevertheless my speech will be of some length on this and even longer on the food question. The noble Lord who moved this Motion will doubtless expect me to give some account of the pronouncements which have been recently made by Indian political leaders and upon which a good deal of misunderstanding and misconception have arisen. But before I deal with that important point I should like, if I may, to remind noble Lords of the speech which the Governor-General made to the combined Legislatures on the 17th February this year. This is, as I think was mentioned by the noble Viscount, Lord Elibank, the first occasion on which your Lordships

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have had an opportunity to discuss the affairs of India since the appointment of the noble and gallant Field-Marshal, Lord Wavell, as Viceroy and Governor-General of India. I cannot help thinking that his personal and prompt intervention into the food problems from the very earliest days of his arrival in India has considerably enhanced the morale of the Indian peoples, and he has certainly imbued them with a sense of civic responsibility to one another. I think his actions in the political sphere have been no less striking and it would be true to say that in all his dealings he has displayed the qualities of a statesman with the characteristics of a great soldier.
In his remarks on February 17, besides referring to the important matters relating to the economic and reconstruction work, he reiterated Government policy. He said that he was speaking as a sincere friend of India. He announced that the Cripps offer was still open and remained in all its essentials, which he enumerated. He asked Indians to co-operate in the Government on the basis of that particular plan which, he said, was still open to any and all who had a genuine desire to further the prosecution of the war and the welfare of India. The noble and gallant Field-Marshal also advocated the setting up of a small authoritative body of Indians to make a preliminary examination of the constitutional problem and he promised that he would render to them any assistance for which they might ask. Finally, he asked for the full co-operation of all British and Indian peoples, including that of Hindus, Moslems, and other minorities, to prepare now for the great future which must surely and undoubtedly await that vast country.
I would ask your Lordships to let me remind you of the substance of the Cripps offer in two essential details. In fact, the proposals imply two things: first, that there must be agreement amongst the main elements in India as to the terms of the Constitution to be framed by Indians after the war; secondly, that any interim provisional Government must be within the terms of the present Constitution, with the Viceroy having all his existing powers—that is to say, on the basis of the retention by the Viceroy of his existing reserved powers. It will be remembered that the draft Declaration implicitly
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ruled out any major change in the form of Constitution so long as the war should last. I think the reasons for these stipulations were clearly inherent in the solution. We have to ensure that not only should nothing affect the continuance of the war but that everyone should assist in its successful prosecution, and also make quite sure that the activities of the Interim Government which would be formed would not prejudice the claims of the minorities with respect to the ultimate Constitution. His Majesty's Government have not departed in any way whatever from the intentions which were declared at the time of Sir Stafford Cripps's Mission and which have been repeated again by the Governor-General in the course of his speech to the combined Legislatures.
I would ask noble Lords to bear these important and essential points in mind for they are certainly relevant to the remarks which I intend to make in the course of a few moments. Before I pass on, however, let me remind Lord Strabolgi that it is wrong to say that because we were weak in 1942 we were prepared then to come to an agreement at once and at any price with Indians. These plans were being worked out before Singapore and Rangoon fell, and the fact that the arrival of Sir Stafford Cripps in India should have coincided with the fall of Rangoon had really nothing to do with the position we were in at that time. I hope that once and for all I can remove from the mind of the noble Lord those beliefs which he has expressed because in point of fact they are quite inaccurate.
Now, my Lords, I pass on to give the House such information as I have upon the recent political moves which have been initiated by Mr. Rajagopalachari and Mr. Gandhi. At the beginning of this month Mr. Rajagopalachari published details of correspondence which had taken place between him and Mr. Jinnah earlier this year on a proposed basis for a Congress-Moslem settlement which was proposed by Mr. Rajagopalachari. The latter stated that the draft scheme which he submitted was discussed with Mr. Gandhi at the beginning of his fast in March, 1943, and that he was authorized to say that it had received his full approval—that is to say, the full approval of Mr. Gandhi. But at no time, so far as His Majesty's Government are

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aware, did Mr. Gandhi append his signature to any document which was delivered to Mr. Jinnah by Mr. Rajagopalachari.
This document which is full of importance contains the terms of a settlement and I should like, if I may, to read the six clauses to the House. The first was that the Moslem League should endorse the Indian demand for independence and co-operate with the Congress Party in the formation of a provisional Government for the transitional period. Secondly, after the termination of the war, a Commission was to be appointed for demarcating contiguous districts in North-West and in East India in which the Moslem population is in an absolute majority. In the areas which were thus demarcated a plebiscite of all the inhabitants was to be taken and would ultimately decide the issue of separation. Thirdly, that it was open to all Parties to define their points of view before the plebiscite took place. Fourthly, in the event of separation mutual agreement would be entered into for safeguarding defence, commerce and communications and for other essential purposes. Fifthly, any transfer of population was to be held entirely on a voluntary basis. Sixthly and lastly, all these terms would be binding only in the event of transfer by His Majesty's Government of both power and responsibility for the Government of India. This, then, was the scheme which Mr. Rajagopalachari urged Mr. Jinnah to accept and suggested thereafter that both he and Mr. Gandhi should advise the Working Committee of the Moslem League and the Working Committee of the Congress Party respectively to accept. Mr. Jinnah was prepared to submit, though not previously to endorse, the scheme to the Working Committee if he received it from Mr. Gandhi direct, but he declined to accept the responsibility for agreeing to it or rejecting it before doing so.
The exact position is, I think, somewhat obscure but these negotiations seem for the moment to have been suspended. The publication of the scheme had a very mixed reception in the Indian Press, and it is difficult at the present moment to understand and appreciate their reactions to it. It does, however, appear that Mr. Gandhi's association with these particular proposals does mark a very significant change in his attitude towards the Moslem
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League position. That in itself might improve the chances of an agreement between the two major Parties. So far as this should prove to be the case we can, of course, only welcome the fact that there has been such an advance on the part of Mr. Gandhi. Your Lordships will, of course, appreciate that this scheme has not been put to the Moslem League, and it has not been possible to know their reaction to it. I understand, however, that there is to be a meeting of the Working Committee of the Moslem Party towards the end of this month when the position may become more clarified. So far as His Majesty's Government are concerned, it seems hardly the time, and it might indeed prove to be very unhelpful, to discuss the practicability of these proposals which are inter-communal and have not been submitted or communicated to the Government at all. Your Lordships will observe that neither during the consultations between Mr. Gandhi and Mr. Rajagopalachari nor during the correspondence between Mr. Rajagopalachari and Mr. Jinnah has the Viceroy received any communication from any one of the three participants.
What I have already said is, of course, by no means the end of the tale, for after the publication of this scheme there appeared a series of statements in the Press which were attributed to Mr. Gandhi. I think the more important of these statements contained seven points, and it was issued after the publication in the News Chronicle of an interview which Mr. Gandhi had with one of that newspaper's correspondents. Indeed, Mr. Gandhi stated himself that the premature publication of the interview with Mr. Gelder, the News Chronicle's representative, had led to some confusion and therefore Mr. Gandhi advanced these views. If your Lordships will forgive me I would like to go through them. Firstly, he said he would never use the weapon of civil disobedience during the war unless for a very grave reason such as the thwarting of India's right to freedom; secondly, that he would be satisfied with a National Government during the war with full control of the civil administration composed of persons chosen by the elected members of the Legislative Assembly; thirdly, that the Viceroy would be, like the King of England, guided by responsible Ministers; fourthly, that popular government would

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be automatically restored to all the Provinces, that is the Provinces which are at the moment under Section 93; fifthly, that while, under the National Government, the Viceroy and the Commander-in-Chief would have complete control of military operations, there would be a Portfolio of Defence in the hands of the National Government which would be genuinely interested in the defence of the country and might render great assistance in the shaping of policy; sixthly, that Allied forces would be allowed to carry on operations on Indian soil but the expenses of such operations would not be borne by India; and seventhly, and lastly, that Mr. Gandhi would advise Congress to participate in the National Government in full. I apologize for giving the details to your Lordships but the procedure followed is a little complicated and a little difficult to understand.
A few days after Mr. Gandhi had published these seven suggestions through the intermediary of the Press, he gave further explanations to Press correspondents in which he emphasized that the statements constituted a personal effort to end the deadlock, but that if his suggestions were unacceptable to Mr. Jinnah or the powers-that-be he would consider it a most unfortunate incident. In clarification, if indeed it be clarification, of his offer to Mr. Jinnah he stated that his proposals were wholly different from the Cripps offer which he said contemplated almost perpetual vivisection of India. Frankly it is difficult to understand whether these statements by Mr. Gandhi have in point of fact definitely improved the chances of inter-communal settlement. The main point so far as His Majesty's Government are concerned is this. Mr. Gandhi is still clinging to precisely that claim which wrecked Sir Stafford Cripps's Mission and put an end to negotiations in April, 1942, for he is no more prepared to-day than he was then to accept the formation of an interim Government with the Viceroy maintaining his existing reserved powers. He demands a so-called interim Government in full control of the civil administration with the Viceroy occupying the position of a constitutional monarch as we understand it in this country. Let it not be forgotten—this is really a very important point—that if an agreement is reached between the Congress Party and the Moslem League and an interim Government
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is set up under the present and existing Constitution, there are still a number of very important questions, not least of which is the protection of minorities, to be resolved. All these matters must be settled before a final Constitution can be evolved.
It will be seen that His Majesty's Government have not departed one iota from the pledge that they gave some time ago, and, which I repeat now, that the proposals which were taken to India by Sir Stafford Cripps still stand in their entirety. May I say this in conclusion, and also in replying to a question which was addressed to me by the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi? He asked me whether the Viceroy was prepared to allow Mr. Gandhi to see the members of the Working Committee. I would refer the noble Lord to the letter which the Viceroy sent to Mr. Gandhi on the 22nd of June last. He said that any meeting between himself and Mr. Gandhi—and it followed also with the Working Committee as well—could only raise false hopes. He said that Mr. Gandhi had publicly stated that he adhered to the "Quit India" Resolution, which he regarded as innocuous. But the Viceroy did say that as soon as Mr. Gandhi had any definite or constructive policy to put up he, the Viceroy, would be very glad to consider it a t that time.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, I am obliged to my noble friend Lord Elibank for his intervention. I must assure him again that there is no ground whatever for his believing that we on these Benches are suggesting that there should be any withdrawal by us from India at the present time. I do wish that he would disillusion himself of that fetish. The Labour Party as a whole does not stand for that policy. We want a settlement. We want to see the whole of India pulling its weight in the war. There is no suggestion on our part of any withdrawal of troops or of officials until after a settlement is arrived at, and not until after the war. I must further assure Viscount Elibank that I make no sort of reflection of any kind against His Excellency the Viceroy, for whom I have the highest personal regard. I did not even refer to his action in the past. I was locking to the future.
Before I withdraw my Motion, may I say that the statement which we have just heard from the noble Earl might have

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been worse? We shall read it very carefully. As I listened to him, though, I thought I detected one or two gleams of understanding and hope. I would have liked a little more warmth and sympathy. I think there is a chance now, of a wide settlement if we take it, but I suppose the noble Earl was bound to take the attitude which he did. He has become acclimatized to the atmosphere in the India Office all too soon. I do thank him for saying that the suggestions that have been made to Mr. Jinnah—I took his words down—might improve the chances of agreement between the major Parties, and that this would be welcomed by His Majesty's Government. That is good, and it is also good to hear that the Cripps proposals still stand. I was sure that that was the case but I am very glad to have this reassurance from the noble Earl on that point. We could not possibly have made those offers at the time of the Cripps negotiations and then have withdrawn them. I agree that we did not make the offer because we were in a weak position and with some idea of withdrawing them later on. I am sure that no Government could possibly propose any such thing.
May I say one word in dealing with a delicate matter? That is upon the question which seems to excite some apprehension in the mind of the noble Earl. It is with regard to the proposal of Mr. Gandhi that a provisional Government can be set up; and I should have thought that if we could get this form of provisional Government of all Parties for all India, with of course the necessary safeguards, we should welcome it, and it would be a magnificant step forward. But it seems to have created some alarm that it should be suggested that the Viceroy should hold the position of a constitutional monarch with his reserved powers.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: A constitutional monarch without his reserved powers.
LORD STRABOLGI: No, with his reserved powers—the position of a constitutional monarch with his reserved powers. We do not often discuss these things in this House, but we are entitled to do so. The constitutional Monarch by whom we in this country are honoured to be ruled has immense powers. They happen to have fallen into disuse, with one or two exceptions, in the last century and a
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half. That, I remember, was one of the arguments used in the negotiations with Congress in 1942. The constitutional powers behind the Monarch in this country if set down on paper look immense. It could, I am sure, be argued that as confidence grows and as democracy has its chance and Indian statesmen become trained to responsibility, these powers would recede more and more into the background. That is what has happened in this country, but the powers are there all the same. I really think that the India Office and the noble Earl make too heavy weather of that particular point. That was the impression I gathered from the noble Earl's speech. As I have said, however, there are some signs of understanding—some signs of grace, as a noble Lord beside me remarks—and I thank the noble Earl for them. I thank him for the things he said in his speech which were good. We shall read the whole of that speech with great attention. I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

INDIA: FOOD SITUATION.
LORD FARINGDON LORD FARINGDON, who had given Notice that he would ask His Majesty's Government whether they can make a statement on the present and prospective food situation in India, and move for Papers, said: My Lords, as a matter of fact I also, of course, share my noble friend's respect for the debating versatility of the noble Earl. My real reason for hoping that these two questions could be taken separately was that I thought that would be for the convenience of your Lordships' House. These two questions are very different. Their treatment is very different, and they deal with very different facets of the Indian problem. Some of us, during the last few months, have been becoming increasingly uneasy about the food situation in India. My noble friend Lord Strabolgi mentioned the lack of news from India, and indeed it is difficult to make out exactly what is happening, what has happened and what provisions are being made. It is therefore with the object of obtaining information that I have put this Motion on the Paper. Our anxiety has recently been increased by the alleged report of Mr. Roosevelt's personal representative, Mr. Berry, in Delhi, to the

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President about the situation in India, and it has been further increased by the statements put out by the twenty-seven political leaders in India, of all shades of opinion and belonging to all Parties.
Finally, since this question has been on the Paper there has appeared in The Times newspaper an article which I cannot help thinking must have brought many of your Lordships who read it to share our anxieties. Although the newspaper expressed itself in terms of what I would describe as sober optimism, I cannot help feeling that any of your Lordships who read this article and studied the figures therein given, must have felt that though sobriety was clearly in place in dealing with such a subject there were, perhaps, somewhat inadequate grounds for the optimism. The Gregory Commission recommended—and on this again the figures are given by The Times—that during the next year there should be imported into India a million tons of grains for consumption, a and half a million tons to form a reserve. The Times report—and it is I believe confirmed from other sources, I do not think there is any question about the figures—points out that by September next something like 800,000 tons will have been imported, but nothing will have been imported towards forming the reserve of half a million tons.
I cannot help feeling that in these circumstances optimism, if not ill-placed, is at least hardly justified. We have already a deficit of 200,000 tons for consumption purposes, and no reserve. In addition, it is said that the deficit Provinces will require something like 1,800,000 tons, and that the surplus Provinces will produce, it is hoped, a surplus of something like 700,000 to 800,000 tons. In those circumstances it seems to me that there is already a considerable deficit, a deficit in the neighbourhood of at any rate 200,000 to 300,000 tons. Moreover, I suggest that it will be extremely difficult to ration supplies and to control prices without the control which would be available to the Government if they had a reserve of 500,000 tons.
I have outlined very briefly the grounds of the anxiety which has caused me to put upon the Paper the Motion which stands in my name. It is more in the nature of a question than a Motion, because it is designed to elicit information.
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A further source of anxiety has been the epidemic position in India. One cannot feel that the food situation, from which arises the gravity of the epidemic situation, is satisfactory when Dr. Roy, the head of the Bengal Medical Co-ordination Committee, reports that there are something like 20,000,000 people in Bengal and Bihar who are affected by epidemics. He reports that there is an outbreak of a particularly virulent type of smallpox, and that the cholera situation is really critical. It is reported that the cholera situation in Bihar is worse than it was in the gravest year hitherto recorded, 1920.
I do not expect the noble Earl to deal with the position of drugs and medical services, but the health situation is one which is produced by the famine and which also reacts upon it, because we cannot hope to obtain from a country in which the epidemic situation is so serious the produce of foodstuffs for which we might otherwise have hoped. I therefore trust that His Majesty's Government, even if they are not able to say anything today, will at any rate on some future occasion give us some assurance about the steps which they are taking both to promote the manufacture of drugs in India and to facilitate the export of drugs from this country.
If the anticipated surpluses are obtained from the Provinces in which a surplus is expected, and if additional sources of supply can be found abroad, as I am assured that they can, in Australia, the United States of America and Canada, then the critical problem will be that of transport, as I am sure the noble Earl will agree. The transport position is divided into an internal and an external problem. The internal problem has been accentuated and aggravated by the removal of railway trucks from India to the Middle East. Moreover, in Bengal in particular the situation has been made more difficult by the fact that, fearing a Japanese invasion, the boats of the Bengali fishermen and river-dwellers were confiscated, and I understand they have now rotted until many of them can no longer be used. Finally, owing to the difficulty in obtaining fodder the draft animals, which were the sole remaining method of transport in India, have been immensely reduced in number.
After the arrival of the present Viceroy in India, the whole-hearted and effective

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co-operation of the military was obtained, and one of the respects in which that cooperation proved invaluable was the provision of petrol transport. This transport is now, I understand, no longer available, and one wonders how, supposing the surpluses can be obtained and the imports can be made, they are to be transported inside India. I have outlined only very briefly the grounds for the anxiety that I feel, and that I know a great number of people in this country and on these Benches, and I am sure on the Government Benches, feel, about the present food situation in India. Since to obtain information was the reason for this Motion, I shall detain your Lordships no longer. I beg to move.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Lords, nine months have elapsed since your Lordships last discussed the food situation prevailing in India, and much has occurred during the intervening period, through the initiative of His Majesty's Government and of the Government of India, to remove the rumour and the threat of another shortage. I think that the fear of another food shortage cannot be removed by flowery phrases, which in themselves would only encourage undue complacency; on the other hand there is no need for me to paint too dark a picture and to create despondency by telling a story of unmitigated gloom, of the continuation of speculation and hoarding and of the loss or lack of confidence. Indeed, there are quite a number of favourable features to which I shall refer in the course of my remarks, and I feel that by weighing the optimistic view with the pessimistic view we can at any rate say that there is reasonable justification for thinking that we are on the road to better days. The food problem of India, and in fact of every tropical country, depends, of course, upon rainfall, and if in any year the monsoon in India should fail, we are faced, as you know, with a difficult or perhaps dangerous or even extremely dangerous situation. If, however, the present monsoon proves favourable—and there is certainly some justification for believing that it may—then at any rate we should be able to resolve our difficulties and to meet our requirements for the current year.
The wheat crop in the North-West of India, which was particularly good—
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well above the average—last year, has suffered this year from a spell of bad weather before harvesting, which I understand takes place just before the monsoon is due. The present crop is about the same amount below the average as the 1943 crop was above the average. It follows, therefore, that a portion of the surplus which would otherwise have been available for distribution to deficit areas from the North-West wheat-growing areas in India will have to be found from elsewhere. Although this factor in itself should not be the cause of another food shortage, it must nevertheless be taken into account in examining the position as a whole, and it is for that reason that I mention it. Noble Lords will remember that the famine of last year occurred mainly in rice-growing areas, and it was caused by a variety of events, of which not the least were abnormal climatic conditions. But in so far as it was a matter of human control, every measure has been taken to ensure that there shall be no recurrence. We cannot of course deal with the elements, which are beyond our control.
I want in the course of my remarks, which I am afraid will be somewhat lengthy, to give the House an account of the rationing system which has been adopted in towns and cities throughout India, of the procurement plan, which naturally differs from Province to Province according to whether it is a surplus or deficit area, of the price control system in operation, and of the import programme for which shipping has been supplied by His Majesty's Government. Before doing that I want to make a few general remarks in order to give the House the fullest information which I have at my disposal. No one will desire to discuss again the causes which led to last year's famine, but certain lessons have been learnt from it, and they have stood us in useful stead.
It will be remembered that the particular area which was inflicted with such a grievous famine was limited in size and in population, and the most serious conditions which prevailed were confined to areas in the Province of Bengal. I think, therefore, your Lordships and the noble Lord who asked this question may be particularly interested to hear the recent news of the food position in that Province. I am glad to say that since the famine of last year came to an end con-

1113
ditions have immensely improved with the harvesting of a bumper rice crop, in point of fact the best crop that has ever been known. An undertaking has been given by the Government of India to supply from sources outside Bengal 640,000 tons of food grains in order to feed the city of Calcutta. That in itself will remove the burden from the Bengal market, which obviously must be suffering to some extent from the inevitable aftermath of last year's disaster, the lack of a normal carry-over and the shock to confidence. The difficulties which originally postponed introduction of rationing in the city of Calcutta have now been overcome, and I am told that the situation there is working smoothly and well.
My right honourable friend Mr. Casey, the new Governor of the Province, has put in hand a number of measures which are all directed to reorganizing the whole food position, and he has moreover stated that the food grains which have been procured under the scheme which is operating in that Province, about which I will say something later on, justified all his expectations and hopes that the total procurement will be adequate to meet all the essential needs of the deficit areas within his particular Province during the present year. There may be certain relatively small areas in which for one reason or another difficulties will perhaps be experienced, but everything is being done to anticipate and meet those difficulties before they arise. His plan has accordingly included the establishment of reserves of grain at points from which those areas liable to special distress can be reached in spite of transport difficulties, if they are then in existence. The small boats which were removed at the time of the threatened Japanese invasion of Bengal have been restored, and the task of rebuilding is being divided between the civil and military authorities. One of the complications which confront Mr. Casey is the presence within his Province of large forces who are aligned against the Japanese. My right honourable friend has also instituted a rural rationing scheme which has Province-wide application, and nearly 50 per cent. of the rural families have already received ration cards, but even when this scheme is fully working it will probably not have the exactitude which urban rationing in this country and in India would demand.
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The food committees which were set up in the Province some time ago have been completely reorganized, and are now functioning in every district throughout the whole Province. At the beginning of this month Mr. Casey made a broadcast speech and he stated that they were within reasonable sight of having procured the minimum total of rice to see the Province through until the next winter's crop in November is harvested. He also stated that this meant that Bengal was almost out of the wood so far as this year was concerned. The plans which my right honourable friend has made regarding the procurement of rice have not been drawn up for one year alone, but in point of fact on a basis of several years ahead. That is the most recent information which I have about the Province of Bengal, but I could not let the opportunity go by without paying some tribute to my right honourable friend who was appointed as Governor of that Province at a time when the food situation was most precarious, and who with superhuman effort has certainly steered the Province towards brighter days. At this point may I say in reply to the noble Lord opposite that I have not with me this afternoon the figures of vaccination and inoculation within the Province, but I think I could probably obtain them for him on some future occasion.
In this country we have, as we know, instituted a rationing system of the principal food commodities in order to ensure an equitable and fair distribution to everybody. No person is allowed any more than his neighbour, and the allocation of rationed foodstuffs has been drawn up on a highly scientific basis. Our task in this country, it is true, has not been easy, but it has been far simpler to ration everyone in these islands than it would have been to ration the whole community in the vast area of India. But even here it has involved, as we all know, an immense clerical staff, and comparable personnel was not easy to provide within the shores of India. Fortunately, however, that has not been necessary, for a very large proportion of the population are consumer-producers; that is to say, they hold a portion of the crops they grow for their own family consumption and dispose of the remainder to meet their immediate obligations and requirements. The efforts therefore of the Governments have been

1115
directed towards rationing in the cities and towns throughout India, and the progress which has been made during the last twelve months can really be described as astronomical. In the Province of Madras 77 out of the 84 towns and cities are now rationed, and in the whole of India 219 cities and towns with a population of something like 35,000,000 people, are rationed. It requires no explanation to indicate how important it is for Central and Provincial authorities to have definite knowledge of the quantity of foodstuffs which would be required from the limited marketable resources to feed the people living in these cities and towns. The Gregory Committee which was mentioned by the noble Lord recommended in their Report a minimum ration for each person of 16 ounces of food grains per day. Although that figure remains as a general target, to which all the rationing in the cities and towns is directed, I want to make it quite clear that at the present moment there is not an All-Indian ration scale in operation. I have been told that the quantities supplied to each ration-card holder may differ from town to town and from city to city.
Noble Lords will appreciate that, however good the system of rationing may be, the whole organization might be seriously impaired if the important factor of price control is not taken into account. The Government of India have therefore got to make quite sure that the prices charged for vital food supplies are not only fair and equitable, and give reasonable return to the producer, but that they are such that the community at large can afford to pay. Noble Lords will therefore see how vital it is to stimulate confidence amongst the people in the ability of the Government to maintain rigid control. If anything should occur either at home or in India through hasty or ill-considered remarks which might shake or lessen the prevailing spirit of confidence which has been built up so successfully by the present Viceroy, difficulties might emerge which might well have the very gravest consequences. Once the cultivator, who is the producer, begins to hoard his crops either as an insurance against bad times or in the hope of obtaining a higher price, an immediate local shortage begins, and then in course of time that is rapidly aggravated the whole way along
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the line. But if the spirit of confidence reigns, and the price control is firm and fair, then the tendency of the producer to hoard a surplus crop is considerably lessened and probably completely overcome. The Government of India's price control policy has therefore been directed to this end, and an All-Indian statutory maximum price is in force for wheat, barley, gram, and millets. Maximum prices are ruling at which the Government buy all wheat and millets offering. It has not yet been possible to establish an All-Indian rice control price, but I have been told that there are local controls of rice in various Provinces.
I pass from that to deal with the system of procurement which has been well thought out and well prepared, and which must of necesssity be very closely linked with the price control system which is in operation. This procurement policy, I am told, is an entirely new departure for India, and although, as I pointed out at the beginning of my remarks, it differs from Province to Province—I shall give indications of that in a few moments—the whole scheme is designed to supply the needs of the cities and other deficit areas as well as to give the Central Government stocks with which to control the market.
In Bengal the Government employ four trading firms who purchase on their behalf. They have evolved their own machinery. They buy in surplus areas at controlled prices, and the stocks which are thus purchased are held as Government reserves and drafted out to the deficit areas as and when required. In the Punjab there is also a Government scheme of purchase through agents. I have been told that this scheme is not working altogether satisfactorily, and an amendment is now contemplated to ensure closer control by the provincial authorities. In the Central Provinces an elaborate scheme is in operation, and it is worked by the whole of the revenue staff from the Commissioner down to the village Patwari, and the Government have, in point of fact, an absolute purchasing monopoly. At the same time there is in the Central Provinces a compulsory levy in force, graduated according to the size of the holding, and it has been found that as long as that levy is uniform and fair, and the producer receives cash promptly, no opposition at all is encountered.

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I give these instances of procurement without going into very great detail to show how different are the schemes in operation from Province to Province. Most of the Governments have found it desirable to employ the existing trade agencies, who perhaps alone possess the necessary knowledge, but of course they function on behalf of the Governments and under such conditions as to price which the Provincial Governments may find it desirable to impose. In normal times, free from the stress and strain of war, there should never be any real difficulty in importing into India sufficient quantities of wheat which, together with the amount secured inside India by any procurement policy, would place a substantial reserve in the hands of Government to enable them to control the market. It has been the object of His Majesty's Government to try and provide the maximum quantity of imports for current consumption, as recommended in the Gregory Report. Noble Lords know well enough the ever-increasing calls made upon our shipping last year and again this year, but in spite of all these demands—and it is obvious that we cannot allow our military operations to be imperilled—we have provided sufficient ships for the carrying to India of 800,000 tons of wheat from outside sources in the course of a period of twelve months ending in October this year. We have given an undertaking to the Government of India that we shall consider in August and again in November an allotment of further shipping for this purpose.
The noble Lord who moved this Motion and other noble Lords who are concerned with Indian affairs have, as the noble Lord mentioned, on occasion expressed anxiety about the future, and they will naturally wish to hear from me something of the action which the Government of India propose to take to ensure a steady and continuous all-round increase in the internal production of foodstuffs. We know from the census reports that the population of India is increasing at a very alarming rate, and the figure of five millions a year is no overestimate. At the same time the statistics of the recorded crop output show no comparable increase in food production. Although a short-term policy may assist in increasing the immediate quantity of edible foodstuffs, a long-term policy is what is really required, and will come into operation
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and full effect year by year. We cannot therefore, I suggest, really, on a short-term policy, cure all our existing troubles, but we can, and indeed we should, bend all our efforts to secure that the permanent policy is thought out and should start producing at once, continuing over future years, so as to meet the shortage of food due to the continual increase of the population, but before it arises.
Noble Lords will remember that, due to the circumstances of war and the loss of the Burma rice market, imports have been very heavily cut, and it is not possible to guarantee an immediate restoration when the war comes to an end. It is therefore all the more important that the scheme should be worked out now for the further expansion and development of agriculture and that a scheme should be put in hand at once. The Government of India have not been negligent in their duty, and as far back as 1942, under the noble Marquess, Lord Linlithgow, they instituted a "Grow more food" campaign which has resulted in an additional figure of 12,000,000 acres being brought into cultivation. But the scheme is not one merely of bringing land into production, it also includes measures for an increase of output on land already under cultivation. Some of the measures to increase production include the provision of improved seed, and in point of fact 80 per cent. of the whole of the wheat areas of the Punjab are now sown with improved seed. Other measures are the improvement of cattle breeding, both for the plough and for milking purposes, the construction of bunds against erosion, the provision of tube wells and tank irrigation work. All these have started and come into operation and effect. Moreover, at the present time there is a Mission out in India to advise the Government on the possibilities of an increase in the manufacture of chemical fertilizers in appropriate parts of the country and they have set themselves a target figure of 350,000 tons a year. It is further intended to promote by all possible measures better methods of husbandry, including proper crop rotations which we understand so well at home. In the Province of Bombay legislation has been enacted to effect control by Government upon crops grown within the provincial boundaries. It is intended that additional acreage of food crops should come into cultivation at the expense of unnecessary commercial crops.

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Finally, a plan has been envisaged which will certainly interest the noble Lord and others to double India's agricultural yield with an immediate object of increasing production by 5o per cent. over the next ten years and ultimately by 100 per cent. in fifteen years. The capital cost of this immense plan is estimated at 1,000 crores or £750,000,000 with a recurring annual expenditure of 20 crores or £15,000,000. The plan has been drawn up by a special Committee appointed by the Advisory Board of the Imperial Council for Agricultural Research and the members who drafted the plan include Agricultural and Animal Husbandry Commissioners of the Government of India, the Directors of Agriculture and of the Veterinary and Dairy Institutes, and three non-official experts. The plan aims at securing enough food of the right kind for every individual and improving the standard of living of the people. Production will be increased by bringing more land under cultivation, by preventing land from going out of cultivation, and by increasing the out-turn from land actually under cultivation.
I will not at this moment go into all the details which are enumerated in this tentative plan that is now before the Provincial Governments and will shortly be put before the Central Government. The Provincial Governments have been asked for criticisms and suggestions within the next three months, but I might just mention that the order of priority for the more important items of improvement is stated to be first, irrigation by the construction of tanks, wells and canals; secondly, manure and the manufacture of ammonium sulphate; thirdly, land improvement; fourthly, tillage; fifthly, the establishment of seed farms; and lastly the grading of cattle. It will be seen that some of the suggestions have already been put in hand by the Government of India under their "Grow more food" campaign.
I feel, my Lords, I have been very long in giving your Lordships an account of the present position in India, but I was anxious to give the House as full an appreciation as possible of the food situation throughout India, and I have tried to picture in a reasonable light, and with due regard to all the complexities—and indeed there are many complexities—the
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general position as we see it. The Government of India have not been behind the Bombay industrialists in thinking ahead and in planning an agricultural economic policy which year by year can bring into production more and more areas of cultivable waste. It is perhaps true that progress in the political field may tarry awhile, but if the standard of living and the general welfare of the Indian masses can be raised to higher levels then we shall, at any rate, have met one of the essential needs to political as well as industrial progress.
LORD FARINGDON: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Earl enthusiastically for his very full reply. I am sure your Lordships will agree that it has not been one minute too long. Equally your Lordships will appreciate that with such a long statement it is a little difficult without reading it carefully to make any remarks. I still remain a little anxious about the immediate position. The noble Earl says it is impossible to control the elements. That I take it, really was the reason for the Gregory Committee's recommendation that there should be a reserve of grain. If you have a reserve of grain and you cannot control the elements, at least you can ignore them. I can only hope (and this emerges I think from the noble Earl's remarks) that the elements for this year may be merciful to us.
The noble Earl has made very clear the difficulties and the complexities of the position. I do not think anyone in your Lordships' House would for a minute underrate the difficulty of rationing a population so vast as that of India and I think, in so far as the Government are coping with this really monumental situation, that is all to the good. Clearly it is a difficult situation because obviously civil servants do not exist in India, as they do here, to undertake this kind of task. I was very glad to hear the noble Earl's assurance that His Majesty's Government hopes in August and November to be able to afford the Indian Government additional shipping. I most particularly welcome that statement because if my figures are correct the death-rate in Calcutta is still above the normal.
Finally, I would like if I may to congratulate the Government on their agricul-

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tural policy. The Indian problem is not merely one of to-day or of a famine last year or the possibility of a famine this year. The problem as the noble Lord outlined it is that of the appalling poverty of the Indian sub-continent. I feel myself that if the famine of last year, horrible, catastrophic as it was, has resulted in the production of a plan which will raise the productive power of India and the standard of living of her millions then it will perhaps have had at least one very beneficial result. On the plans of the Imperial Agricultural Research Council I do congratulate the Government and I wish it all success. I ask your Lordships' permission to withdraw my Motion.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, before the Motion is withdrawn I should like to say a word to congratulate the noble Earl on the statement he has made. It is one of the most important statements on India which we have had in this House for many a long day. It has been fully recognized in many quarters that the Indian problem is not merely, and perhaps not primarily, a political problem, but an economic problem, which turns mainly on food production. The very rapid increase in population in recent years, which is still continuing, has added to the anxiety arising from the low standard of living of so many millions of the Indian population. If the programme outlined to-day is fully carried into effect it will have a vast and most beneficial effect on the population of India. I thought it right to say a word to draw the special attention of your Lordships to the great importance of the statement to which we have been privileged to listen.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
VISCOUNT MERSEY: My Lords, before the House adjourns I should like to ask the noble Lord opposite if any alteration
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has been made in the business announced for Thursday next.
LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, I understand that the noble Lord, Lord Vansittart, has withdrawn the Motion, relative to the occupation of Germany, which he put down for Thursday and I believe it is to be put down for Wednesday, August 2.

WISBECH CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments: the said Amendments considered, and agreed to.

AGRICULTURAL (MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS) BILL.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid on the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that no further Standing Orders are applicable to the Bill.
The same was ordered to lie on the Table.

PENSIONS (INCREASE) ACT (EXTENSION) ORDER, 1944.
Special Order proposed to be made under Section 4 of the Pensions (Increase) Act, 1944:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

ACCOMMODATION IN THE PALACE OF WESTMINSTER.
A Message ordered to be sent to the Commons to propose that the joint Committee do meet on Tuesday next at half-past three o'clock.
House adjourned.