HL Deb 13 July 1944 vol 132 cc916-34

LORD VANSITTART had given Notice that he would call attention to the massacre of fifty officers at Stalag Luft III, and propose measures which will both ensure retribution and provide a safeguard against further atrocities. The noble Lord said: My Lords, so much water has flowed under the bridges that it may possibly have been forgotten that on May 25 I made a speech in this House in which I described the killing of these fifty air officers as cold-blooded butchery. I added that this would be followed by a lying report from the German Government, and that I would decline in advance to accept one single word of it. That was a statement which brought me several reproaches from various Germanophiles. But that was exactly the position we were led to on June 23 when exactly that point of view was adopted. It was perfectly correct that it was unnecessary to wait for the German report. The modern German really is a little like the new terror weapon, the pilotless bomb— you can usually tell pretty well which way he is going. Indeed I think that this newest engine of destruction is in many respects a replica of the modern German soul.

This report has been received and the Secretary of State on June 23 made a statement in the House of Commons of which I fully approve. He stated that the culprits would be punished. Well and good. Of course we expected no less. But how? There is the rub. It is a very difficult question to answer and I do not think it can be answered at all unless your Lordships are prepared to adopt some such proposals as those which I will propound to you to-day. It has been sail that the punishment will take place, but before you consider the answer to the question I put I would ask you to remember for a minute what happened after the end of the last war. The first German world war was hardly over when the new German Republic, the German people, made it very manifest, with a unanimity which was frequently proclaimed at the time and never challenged, that they were not going to allow the war criminals to be punished. At first sight you might have thought this attitude rather strange when applied to the case of a man like General Stenger, who had butchered not fifty but literally thousands of prisoners in cold blood. And it may well be that the General was no worse than his colleagues General von Billow and General von der Goltz, whose barbarous proclamations are still available for anyone who wants to read them. And you might have thought it strange that the German people, including the German women, should have been so anxious to protect those German submarine commanders who had butchered women and children as well in lifeboats. If anyone was surprised at that he little knew the heart of Germany. You might as well expect to find a shilling under a stone as expect justice from a German. As we have learnt from experience the German heart is a stone.

So it was that far from being executed these war criminals were turned into something like national heroes. They were adulated and be-laurelled. I for one will never forget the flowers that were strewn in the path of that bullet-headed old reactionary Marshal von Hindenberg when he made it clear to the people of Germany at the time of the last German Republic that he was going to interfere with the course of justice. I think the sin on our part was that we asked for such a short list of criminals in the last war. There were hundreds and thousands of Germans who deserved to be punished for their crimes, but we whittled away the list until we had got it down to a score or so, and even that score we did not get. I beg your Lordships to remember that, because this time we shall be asking for scores of thousands not scores. By that you may measure the magnitude of our task.

Out of that there arises another fact which has a very distinct bearing on our problem. The first act of the united people, of the German Republic, was to cast the mantle of their protection over the very worst specimens of the old régime of which they had professed themselves so anxious to be rid. By that again you may measure the value of the alleged German change of heart. That is a problem which we have to consider very closely now. We, at this time, are naturally determined not to be cheated again. But we are most certainly going to be cheated, and justice will be cheated unless we begin to think ahead, and I propose that we should begin to think ahead to-day. The German people will in all probability deal rather roughly with some of the men who have been cruel to them at home. But for those who have been cruel to their neighbours abroad they will have nothing but the old admiration which was manifested after the last war. Unless we are very careful the real culprits will again be covered by national connivance.

We are told that this crime has been committed by the Gestapo. It is quite true that it was. They are the immediate culprits but behind them remain the ultimate culprits who are an even more pernicious body of men. I will therefore begin by dealing with the immediate culprits and take the ultimate ones last. I think it will not be disputed that practically every member of the Gestapo is a guilty man, that his life is forfeit an hundredfold. I have pointed out in previous speeches in this House—twice in successive years—that we are going to have even less chance of getting a reformed Germany and an habitable Europe if we leave in existence an even greater number of thugs, hooligans and sadists than after the last war. It must further be remembered that every member of this force has gone into it of his own free will; there has been no compulsion. According to German standards it is a corps d'élite The first thing that I ask to-day, therefore, is that His Majesty's Government should approach the Allied Governments and ask them to agree to the entire Gestapo being put on the proscribed list; in other words, to agree to bring to trial every member of it on whom we can lay hands. I venture to think that His Majesty's Government will find very little difficulty in obtaining the assent of the Allies, who have suffered so much from these people.

Even so, we shall not be able to lay hands on very many unless we are prepared to adopt the further methods which I will now describe. Secondly, therefore, by "unconditional surrender" I understand what I think that every plain man understands, and that is that when the Germans have had enough of being beaten they will surrender, and they will be told the terms afterwards and not beforehand. However, there will be no disadvantage whatever, and in fact very considerable advantage, in making known, on an occasion like this, something of what we shall require, and of what we must require if we are to have retribution visited on the right people, and an orderly Europe. We must let it be known to the German Generals that there will be no cessation of hostilities until they have handed over, or are ready to hand over, a substantial portion of the Gestapo as an instalment.

What do I mean by "an instalment"? I will explain that. I calculate that in France, for example, about 30,000 members of the Gestapo have probably been employed. The same will hold good for Poland and for the parts of Russia which were once occupied. There are, of course, many other overrun countries which are smaller in size, and have therefore required fewer of these atrocious people. If we are to take an overall figure, and include in it the Gestapo employed in Germany, it would be unsafe to calculate on the basis of a smaller figure than about 200,000. The demand which I put forward to-day is essentially a moderate one. I would ask, as a condition of the cessation of hostilities, that one-quarter of that number should be handed over—not to us but to the Allies corporately. Since we have not been invaded we shall be concerned only with a small portion of these people, but included in that comprehensive instalment would certainly be all those responsible for the crimes committed against our men. This is what I think should be done with that instalment; they should be put in prison camps until the Allies have had time to decide which of them will be executed and which deported to some place such as Devil's Island or some South Sea atoll. The one thing which is absolutely essential is that none of them should ever set foot in Europe again. I think everybody who means business will agree with that.

I have accounted for a quarter of them. We shall have to look after the other three-quarters. We must get rid of as many of them as possible if we are sincere in looking forward to a settled Europe, and therefore, thirdly, I propose that the Allied Governments should declare the Gestapo to be outlawed—in their own language, Vogelfrei, fair game for anyone. If you will do these things you will find that you will get a large crop of denunciations and identifications, which you will never otherwise obtain, and not only in occupied territories but from Germany itself. If you do not show now that you mean business you cannot expect denunciations and identifications from anyone, when he will have reason to believe that the vast bulk of the satanic colleagues of these people are left at liberty.

You can go further with this process of sanitation, denunciation and identification by the fourth measure which I propose, and that is that you should declare, either to-day or as soon as you possibly can, that as soon as we get into Germany we are going to set up inter-Allied military tribunals all over the country, which will deal with the Gestapo and kindred bodies by summary procedure. If you do not do these things or their equivalent, I predict that you will not get one per cent. of the real culprits. In that case all the brave words of His Majesty's Government will once again become as tinkling brass and sounding cymbals, and we shall be "had" again as we were after the last war. Moreover, all prospects of European security will be frustrated at birth; and anybody who is prepared to contemplate that possibility is himself a war criminal.

I now come to the ultimate culprits, and here I make my fifth proposal. The German General Staff are in this up to the neck. I think your Lordships will remember that ever since I have been a member of this House I have been a persistent critic of our broadcasting to Germany; but on June 24, the day after the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs spoke, there were two excellent broadcasts to Germany, in which we said that the General Staff were guilty, and we added, to my great satisfaction, that we were going to punish not only the guilty officers but the guilty men. That is excellent, but it is not specific enough. Experience has taught us that in dealing with Germans it is not the least good threatening generally or vaguely; you have to he specific, and you have to give it a name. I am going to give it a name. I propose that to-day we should declare our intention of bringing to trial every member of the German General Staff who at the time of the crime had any connexion whatever with prisoners-of-war matters. I do not think that anyone can challenge the justice of that demand.

I want to go one step further, and to say that we must also engage to bring to trial all those who held positions of military importance and responsibility in the Wehrkreis district at the time of the commission of the crime and, as I said on May 25, that will also include the head of Stalag Luft III and his assistants. All these are guilty men; they have all been conniving with the Gestapo. Never at any period in this war has it been possible for the Gestapo to take action of this sort without the authorization and connivance of the General Staff and the Army generally. I should like to say here with what great satisfaction I hailed the excellent speech made on July 6 by the Minister of Information. On that ocasion he was dealing with the wholesale massacre of Jews from Hungary in the suffocation camp of Auschwitz, and he then said that the General Staff were deeply involved in this. He was quite right; they are the real culprits for everything that has happened to afflict humanity for generations past. Mr. Brendan Bracken indicated that they will all be brought to trial, and I hope that he will insist on that.

He also said something further which I am sure will be highly unwelcome to the right reverend Prelate, the Bishop of Chichester, when he said that the German nation is responsible also for what is happening. Dead right too!

If your Lordships will bear with me a little longer I think you should listen patiently to what I say to-day because you owe the ensemble of these measures not only to the Europe of the future but to all prisoners of war of any nationality still in German hands. If you will take the advice, the urgent advice, that I press upon you to-day you will find two things happen. You will find that because the Gestapo know well enough that the game is nearly up and that the doom of the Third Reich has struck—and incidentally I hope that we shall also strike out of the German vocabulary the word "Reich": the word "State" is good enough for the future—because they know the game is up and know also what is coming to them, if you make it manifest to-day what is coming to them a good many of them in these last crucial, vital weeks and months will stay off the job and go underground, and I prefer them underground until we come to smoke them out. Of those that stay on the top a fair proportion will be interested in constructing twelfth-hour dossiers of good behaviour for submission to the Inter-Allied tribunals which are going to try them for their misdeeds, and I need not emphasize the infinite gain from the point of view of all prisoners of war.

I do not think you can do less than what I have proposed to-day. I hope you will adopt that point of view because it is in deadly earnest that I am putting this forward to-day. I am hoping to receive from the Government a declaration that the Gestapo are really going to be extirpated, eliminated altogether, and I am hoping also that I shall receive from them a declaration that the General Staff, the ultimate culprits, are going to be dealt with with equal severity. I hope that nobody in this assembly will waste a scruple, let alone a tear, upon the Gestapo. Their epitaph was written generations ago by Sir William Gilbert, when he said: "I am happy to think that there will be no difficulty whatever in finding plenty of people whose loss will be a distinct gain to society at large." If you are firm you will have no difficulty in finding plenty of such people in Germany, but if you are not firm you will find next to none.

THE LORD BISHOP OF CHICHESTER

My Lords, in calling attention to the massacre of the R.A.F. officers the noble Lord proposes measures designed both to ensure retribution and to provide safeguards against further atrocities in the future. The murder is a terrible murder and the noble Lord's strongest words, like Mr. Eden's strongest words, are not too strong to express the British detestation of an abominable crime committed against brave and honourable men in cold blood. But the noble Lord's measures are not calculated to promote the interests of British or Allied prisoners of war, as I shall endeavour to show, or to advance the ideals of our own country; and I am bound to add that had the noble Lord shown a more statesmanlike attitude on other occasions, and had his words, both printed and spoken, been less unremittingly violent, his proposals for dealing with this occasion would have carried a good deal greater weight.

I say first that the noble Lord's proposals are not conceived in the interests of British prisoners of war or in the interests of all prisoners of war, of whose cause he seems to claim to be the champion. The Foreign Secretary said in another place than this mass shooting was an individual occasion and that the Government had no knowledge of any other. The Foreign Secretary quoted the official Nazi version, which the noble Lord repudiated in advance before reading it. The official Nazi version—and this is a point of great importance which has not been sufficiently recognized in discussion—said that internal security questions in Germany itself were involved. It sought to justify the Gestapo because it said there was some connexion between opposition groups within Germany and prisoners of war, and the official German Note states that in March there were mass escapes of prisoners of war from camps throughout Germany, involving several thousands of prisoners, systematically prepared by the General Staffs of the Allies, with both political and military objectives. This statement, whatever significance may be attached to it by the noble Lord, is in line with reports from other sources as to contacts within Germany between Germans and prisoners of war of different nationalities.

There are reports well authenticated of fraternization between German workers in the Rhineland and in the Ruhr and, still more, between German peasants and prisoners of war, and I should like to quote a report from East Prussia in March of this year—the same month—when an innkeeper was sentenced to death by the People's Court at Konigsberg because in the presence of prisoners of war and German guests he had undermined the armed strength of the nation and helped the enemy by making an appeal for resistance to the régime. There is a still further interesting illustration of collaboration between the French resistance movement and the German resistance given by a French officer who had escaped to Switzerland. It was reported in a Swiss paper that the French resistance movement was organized among millions of French prisoners of war and forced labourers inside Germany, and that this organization of the French resistance would have been impossible without the aid of the German resistance.

In addition to this there is plenty of evidence that escaping prisoners of war have been assisted by members of the German population, that Nazi newspapers have been exhorting ordinary citizens to give up prisoners of war to whom they have given shelter, to avoid giving them food and shelter, and to inform the police about doubtful figures. There was a very recent illustration of these orders in the instructions given by a Gauleiter at Bayreuth. It would be very hard on would-be escapees and on the prisoners, British or Allied, who are still in Germany if the efforts of a section of the German population were to be denounced by spokesmen here. I claim that the attitude of the British Government as stated by the Foreign Secretary is absolutely right. This is an odious but an individual crime committed, as the noble Lord has affirmed, by the Gestapo superseding Army authority and Army responsibility after such supersession. The question of the legal responsibility of the Army authority is, at any rate, open to doubt. His Majesty's Government's policy is that the foul criminals responsible for this cold-blooded act of butchery should be tracked down to the last man and brought to exemplary justice. It is surely all the more regrettable that the noble Lord should attempt to abandon this ground and—I would ask your Lordships' special attention to this point—should give the Nazi authorities a pretext for exchanging the Army guards and the Army responsibility for those of the secret police. This is what the noble Lord's Motion would imply.

LORD VANSITTART

Does the right reverend Prelate deny the overriding authority of the German General Staff? Because if he does so, it shows he knows singularly little of the German Army. I ask for a straightforward reply: Does he or does he not deny that, which is what he is seeking to do?

THE LORD BISHOP OF CHICHESTER

The question is open to doubt.

LORD VANSITTART

On what ground does the right reverend Prelate doubt it?

THE LORD BISHOP OF CHICHESTER

It is a matter that cannot be gone into except by a tribunal—

A NOBLE LORD

After you are dead!

THE LORD BISHOP OF CHICHESTER

After victory is won. It is all the stranger and mote regrettable that the noble Lord should adopt this attitude, involving this risk for the prisoners of war, since he is the President of the Association of Relatives of Prisoners of War. How many parents, how many wives, I wonder, from the shelter of this free country, would advocate that their relatives in German hands might just as well be handed over to the Gestapo as remain under their present custody? That is the issue which the noble Lord raises, and in raising such an issue he is no friend of the British or the Allied prisoners of war.

LORD VANSITTART

That is a little more than I am prepared to stand even from the right reverend Prelate. I have pride in being President of the Relatives' Association. I was proposing measures to-day which would mitigate the risks to which the prisoners are going to be exposed Out of the blue comes the right reverend Prelate and, with his one hundred per cent. Germanophile views, takes exactly the opposite line, and pretends that there is nothing to be done. That is the worst possible way of protecting prisoners of war, and it is a very fair example of endeavouring to hit below the belt.

THE LORD BISHOP OF CHICHESTER

I do not think the noble Lord can have quite envisaged the effect of his attack on the German General Staff and the Gestapo in one and the same breath, or could have imagined the effect in Germany on the prisoners of war if measures such as those he suggests were to be carried out. They are not in my opinion in the interests of prisoners of war. There is another substantial reason for disagreeing with the noble Lord's proposals. They are not calculated to advance the ideals of this country. This fearful crime has to be viewed in the framework of the German situation as a whole. It is one of a series covering a long period against innumerable innocent victims. Read the Polish Black Book of three years ago. Read the account of the deportation of German Jews last year. Read the account in the last few weeks of the transport of Jewish children from Hungary in their thousands, in crowded trains, and in circumstance of pitiless cruelty. Ask the exiles from the Allied countries what they have suffered. Ask the German victims of the Nazi concentration camps who are in America or in this country. They are all fruit of the same ruthlessness and the same mockery of law and justice of which these fifty British officers are the latest victims. The Foreign Secretary was surely right in calling very particular attention to the fact that this crime, like the other crimes, is the crime of the Gestapo, those gangster criminals employed by Hitler and Himmler who are the authorized executors of the vilest principles of the Nazi way of life.

I would emphasize this point, for it has a very real bearing on the attitude which British people ought to adopt. Last Tuesday the noble Lord, Lord Mottistone, drew a contrast between Hitler's and the British way of life. This war is a war of rival ways of life, rival religions, and the real issue is which is to prevail. It would be fatal at this stage of the war if we were to allow any climax of Nazi brutality to induce us to abandon the principles to which we have pledged our allegiance. The noble Lord, Lord Vansittart, in Black Record, after enumerating a number of bestialities committed by Germany in the present war, says: To do all these things that no Briton could or would do the Nazis find a large supply of cold-blooded young barbarians who are not only willing to do them but revel in doing them. The noble Lord is right both in what he said about the Nazis and in what he said no Briton could or would do. At all costs we must stand by law, as the Foreign Secretary stands by law, and with any measures which confuse the criminal with the non-criminal, which savour of proscription—and the noble Lord used that word—and are directed against a whole community, we should have nothing to do. As to retribution, we should in no way depart from the Foreign Secretary's policy of fixing retribution on those who are responsible for the crime. As to safeguards, the best safeguard against further atrocities of any kind is to end the wild ungoverned Nazi system as victory will end it.

I have spoken of principles. If I were disposed to pay regard to drier and colder maxims of policy I would add this. To speak now of retribution in this large-scale indiscriminate fashion, apart from the punishment to be visited on individuals proved guilty of stated crimes, would be to prolong the war, to increase man's suffering, and to add to the havoc of Europe and the world. The Gestapo know, and Hitler and Himmler know, that there is no hope for them after victory. Their whole purpose at this hour of imminent catastrophe is to persuade the German people that there is no hope for them either and that their only chance of survival is to rally one and all around the Führer. The diplomatic correspondent of The Times of July 8 describes in calm, objective words the ever-present fears of the German people, their fear of the Gestapo, their fear of defeat, their fear of what will follow after defeat and the determination of the Nazi leaders to increase those fears by word and by deed. Tell them that the Allies are intent on measures of this kind and you will unite the responsible leaders, the Nazi leaders, with what Hitler calls the great stupid flock of sheep-hearted people in a desperate struggle for life. Tell them that the criminal system of militarism, focused in Hitler and Himmler and the Gestapo and the Nazis, must be destroyed, but that there is a hope for a Germany purged from these horrors, and you will meet that within the German people which longs for an end of war's agonies and you will slacken the will to fight.

It is right to tell Germany, as she groans in misery, that she is the victim of her own crimes. I do not differ very much in principle from what the noble Lord said about that. It is right to bid Germany ask pardon of God and man for the calamities which she has brought on herself and others. But it is also right to make it plain that our aim is not to exterminate all the German people, but to overthrow a monstrous tyranny which seeks to dominate the world, to ensure security for the future and to fasten the punishment on the individual guilty perpetrators, however many they be, of proved crimes by process of law. For these reasons—first, that such measures as the noble Lord proposes will recoil on the prisoners of war in Germany itself; second, that they are inconsistent with British ideals; third, that they are calculated to rally all Germans in a last desperate struggle under Hitler and to prolong war's sufferings—I hope that His Majesty's Government will have nothing to do with the noble Lord's proposal.

LORD WINSTER

My Lords, I wish in a very few sentences to reinforce what has been said this afternoon concerning the complicity of the German General Staff and of German officers in the war crimes of Germany. In regard to the particular incident which is being considered this afternoon, these men who were shot while in the care of the Commandant of the camp, perhaps I may remind your Lordships that, speaking of the captives taken after one of his victories, Nelson said, "When they became my prisoners they became my guests." Surely that is the spirit which should inform the actions of any officer in charge of prisoners of war. But I have seen no explanation whatever of the action of the Commandant of this camp when his functions were usurped by the Gestapo. I have read of no protest which he has made. I have read of no protests made by the German General Staff of the functions of this Commandant being usurped by the Gestapo. For these reasons I do not see how either the Commandant or the German General Staff can possibly be absolved from complicity in this murder.

It confirms my view also that we should begin to repudiate and contest, wherever it is found, this extraordinary legend about the German General Staff and about the officers of the Wehrmacht that they are an honourable body of men, admirable for their professional qualities. I think in some cases far too much honour has been paid to some of these German officers who have been taken prisoner. I have no doubt that that is due to a mistaken sense of chivalry, but I repeat, I think too much honour has been paid them. After all, what are the actions of these officers of each branch of the Wehrmacht? General von Kluge, now Commander-in-Chief on the Western Front, is on the Russian list of war criminals, and we know quite well that the German Army in Russia were accomplices in the appalling and abominable crimes committed on the Russian people. Then take the Navy. What inhumanities and brutalities have commanders of U-Boats committed on officers and men of the Merchant Navy turned adrift hundreds of miles from land in all weathers, mocked and laughed at and dended by officers of U-boats. And the officers of the Luftwaffe have not even hesitated to machine-gun the crews of lifesaving ships. Those are specimens of the things which the officers of each branch of the Wehrmacht do.

I will say nothing this afternoon about what we should say as to our intentions with regard to the trials of war criminals. A statement has been made on behalf of the Government by the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack of our intentions. Repetition is not always emphasis and it is for the Government to decide upon the new statement of our intentions with regard to war criminals and whether such a statements appropriate at this time or not. But I hope the noble Viscount who is to reply may find it possible to make clear that His Majesty's Government have no intention whatever of distinguishing between the German General Staff and the officers of the Wehrmacht and the Gestapo and the S.S. in this matter of the trial of war criminals, and that it will be made clear that those officers cannot possibly be dissociated in our minds from Himmler and his minions.

LORD HUTCHISON OF MONTROSE

My Lords, this is a terribly serious matter and I wish that Lord Vansittart had tabled a Motion much more in the form of a demand upon the Government of the day that they should deal with this affair. The murder of these officers is not the only thing we have to be concerned about. We have heard of cases, and I have had cases in my own family, of bloody murder. It seems to me that unless we take a very determined and bold stand on this matter many of the criminals will escape punishment, as they did in the last war. I hope and trust that when the end of this war does come the surrender of these war criminals will be part of the demands made on the Germans. That must be done at the time of the Armistice. It is no good waiting, as after the last war, for a Peace Treaty. One of the first things to be dealt with is the punishment of these war criminals. They must be dealt with, not by courts of law, but by military courts composed of officers who know what has been going on during the war with Germany. The Germans in war have proved themselves to be outside the pale of civilization. They have committed atrocities, offences against the laws of war, and the only courts before which they can be suitably dealt with are courts of military justice.

Germany will be under military law, I hope, during the early stages of occupation, and we can trust our officers who may be sitting on military courts to adjudicate in all fairness in the cases that come before them. I feel sure that this country and the various families concerned will demand that speedy justice be done in this matter. I strongly support all that my noble friend Lord Vansittart has said. Having had a considerable experience after the last war in Germany, I am of opinion that the only way in which you can deal with these brutes is to bring them before a military court on which all arms must be represented. It is all very well to say that we will have legal courts. They are too slow and too far away from the atrocities that have been committed. I hope the Government will give an assurance that they are determined to deal with this matter quickly immediately after the Armistice and see that these criminals are brought before military courts.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DOMINION AFFAIRS (VISCOUNT CRANBORNE) (Lord Cecil)

My Lords, I am quite certain that there is no noble Lord in any quarter of the House who would not endorse to the full the solemn and moving indictment delivered by the noble Lord, Lord Vansittart, against those responsible for the brutal murders to which his question refers. It might have been thought that, after four years of the type of war we have been enduring, we might have become callous to horrors.

But the cold-blooded slaughter of young airmen who had committed no fault at all but to fight fearlessly and single-mindedly for their country is a crime which, in my view, and I am certain in the view of your Lordships' House, stains indelibly the honour not only of those primarily concerned but of the German Army and the German people. It has been, as the noble Lord, Lord Winster, said, a degradation of those military virtues which it has been supposed in some quarters that the German nation still possess.

The right reverend Prelate, the Bishop of Chichester, while fully concurring in his speech with all that Lord Vansittart said with regard to the crime itself, attempted, I thought, too strictly to limit the responsibility for this crime. While we all recognize the passionate sincerity with which the right reverend Prelate speaks, I could not find myself in agreement with what he said on this occasion. There is no one, I am quite certain, in this country, from Lord Vansittart downwards, who wishes to condemn the innocent, but I cannot feel that, though there are certain people who are most directly and immediately responsible for these crimes, either the military authorities or the German people can be held entirely free from blame. They have allowed this odious Nazi system to be set up and they are fighting to-day wth fanatical zeal to keep it in power. If they want to see the end of Nazism the remedy is in their own hands. While they continue to support Hitler they must share the responsibility for the crimes committed in his name. It has been said that every nation gets the Government it deserves. It seem to me that the responsibility of the German people in this respect is a very heavy one. It is no good ignoring that fact. I agree with the right reverend Prelate that we must punish the guilty and not the innocent. But we must not delude ourselves as to where the guilt lies, and I could not myself draw such narrow limits as have been drawn to-day by the right reverend Prelate.

In his statement in the House of Commons on June 23 this year, my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary explained the facts of this terrible story which led His Majesty's Government to the inescapable conclusion that fifty officers who were prisoners of war in Stalag Luft III were murdered, after removal from the camp, at some unidentified place or places, at some date or dates unknown. He recorded the solemn protest of His Majesty's Government against these cold-blooded acts of butchery and he declared that His Majesty's Government would never cease their efforts to collect evidence to identify all those who are responsible. My right honourable friend added that His Majesty's Government are firmly resolved that these foul criminals should be tracked down to the last man wherever they take refuge when the war is over and brought to exemplary justice. Your Lordships will have noticed that in a further statement in another place yesterday the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs slightly elaborated that statement and said that this resolve of His Majesty's Government to track down and bring to exemplary justice the perpetrators of such crimes applies to all, of whatever rank and whether or not they are members of the Armed Forces, who are responsible for the crime either as instigators or as actual perpetrators. I think that is a perfectly clear statement.

It is, I hope, evident from the statements to which I have referred that His Majesty's Government are in the fullest agreement with the aims of the noble Lord, Lord Vansittart, both to ensure retribution for this particular crime and to provide safeguards against further atrocities of the same kind. The noble Lord in his speech to your Lordships put forward certain proposals as to possible ways by which these objects, which we all hold in common, may be achieved. I would like to say, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, that we welcome all such proposals and assure him that we will take full account of them in discussing with our Allies the large and important issues that they raise. He will, of course, recognize that I cannot at this stage commit either His Majesty's Government or the Allies. I speak only for one Government of the great company of United Nations. We must come to united decisions. But I would make one or two brief and preliminary observations upon the noble Lord's proposals.

I understood him to suggest that no unconditional surrender should be accepted from, and no truce granted to, the German Government which did not ensure the immediate handing over of a substantial proportion of the members of the Gestapo. I can give the noble Lord an assurance that it is no part of the intention of His Majesty's Government, when Germany surrenders, unconditionally, as she will, to leave the Gestapo free. On the contrary, we intend to root out utterly the whole of that devilish organization. It is our firm intention that those who are responsible for these crimes shall pay the full penalty for them, and, personally, I shall be very glad to see the handing over of a substantial proportion of these odious men. I am not quite sure if I was right in understanding that the noble Lord's proposal goes rather further than that, and that he suggests, with a view to encouraging further denunciations and identifications of its members, that the Gestapo should here and now be de-dared an outlawed body. As I understand it what he has in mind is this: that after the United Nations have issued a declaration to this effect, anyone who kills a member of the Gestapo should be able to do so without any danger of suffering any legal penalty for having committed that act. The House will appreciate that this proposal—and I say this in no spirit of criticism—is one of an extremely drastic character, and it contains very far-reaching implications. It will be necessary to weigh this proposal very carefully in the balance as to the results which are likely to accrue from it. That, however: is an aspect of the matter which it is neither necessary nor desirable that I should go into in great detail this afternoon. Clearly, I could not commit His Majesty' Government or our Allies at the present stage. But the noble Lord may rest assured that his proposal will be most carefully examined with a view to any international discussions that may take place. And the same applies to his other proposal with regard to the setting up of military courts.

Finally, the noble Lord implied, if he did not actually say so, that he wished His Majesty's Government to make clear, in broadcasts or by any other methods, to Germany, their determination, and the determination of the United Nations, to bring to trial all members of the German General Staff who held appointments, or were connected with the treatment of prisoners of war, at the time of the crime, and also all military authorities in the military districts concerned at the time of the crime, including the Commandant of the camp and his assistants. My Lords, on this point let me make the position of His Majesty's Government once more quite clear, if there remains any doubt. It is our firm intention that all who are responsible for this crime, and all who have connived at it, whether they be military authorities or others, shall be pursued and brought to exemplary justice. And we shall make this clear to the German people by any and every means in our power, in order that they may be in no doubt as to what will be the fate of those, whoever they may be, whether they be high or low, who lend themselves, either as principals or agents, to the commission of these abominable crimes.