Lords Sitting of 4 April 1944

Preamble
The House met, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers.
  PEOPLE'S DISPENSARY FOR SICK ANIMALS OF THE POOR BILL. [H.L.]

    HERTS AND ESSEX WATER BILL. [H.L.]
    Report from the Committee of Selection, That the following Lords be proposed to the House to form the Select Committee for the consideration of the said Bills—namely:

    E. Brooke and Warwick,

    L. O'Hagan (Chairman),

    L. Monkswell,

    L. Meston,

    L. Kenilworth:

    Agreed to, and the said Lords appointed accordingly. All Petitions referred to the Committee, with leave to the Petitioners praying to be heard by Counsel against the Bills to be heard as desired, as also Counsel for the Bills.

  LONDON MIDLAND & SCOTTISH RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]

    LONDON MIDLAND & SCOTTISH RAILWAY (CANALS) BILL. [H.L.]
    Report from the Committee of Selection, That the following Lords be proposed to the House to form the Select Committee for the consideration of the said Bills—namely:

    E. Poulett,

    L. Boyle (E. Cork and Orrery),

    L. Chesham,

    L. Milne (Chairman),

    L. Nathan:

    Agreed to, and the said Lords appointed accordingly. All Petitions referred to the Committee, with leave to the Petitioners praying to be heard by Counsel against the Bills to be heard as desired, as also Counsel for the Bills.

    CANNOCK DISTRICT GAS ORDER, 1944.
    Report from the Special Orders Committee, That no Petition has been presented praying to be heard against the
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    Special Order, and that there is nothing in this Order to which they think it necessary to call the attention of the House:
    Read and ordered to lie on the Table.

    ARMY AND AIR FORCE (ANNUAL) BILL.
    Brought from the Commons; and read 1a.

    COMMITTEE OF SELECTION.
    THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (LORD STANMORE): My Lords, during the absence of the Earl of Listowel, the noble Lord, Lord Southwood, will act as Whip of the Labour Party. I therefore beg to move that Lord Southwood be added to this and other Committees.
    Moved, That the Lord Southwood be added to the Committee.—(Lord Stanmore.)
    On Question, Motion agreed to.

    SPECIAL ORDERS COMMITTEE.
    LORD STANMORE: My Lords, I beg to move.
    Moved, That the Lord Southwood be added to the Committee.—(Lord Stanmore).
    On Question, Motion agreed to.

    PROCEDURE OF THE HOUSE.
    LORD STANMORE: My Lords, I beg to move.
    Moved, That the Lord Southwood be added to the Committee.—(Lord Stanmore).
    On Question, Motion agreed to.

    THE ATLANTIC CHARTER.
    LORD NOEL-BUXTON LORD NOEL-BUXTON had the following Notice on the Paper: To ask His Majesty's Government, whether in view of the importance attached throughout the world to the Atlantic Charter and in view of the statement made by the Prime Minister, that there will be no question of the Atlantic Charter applying to Germany as a matter of right and barring territorial transferences or adjustments in enemy countries, His Majesty's Government

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    will make clearer the bearing of the Charter on the future of Germany; and to move for Papers.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DOMINION AFFAIRS (VISCOUNT CRANBORNE) (Lord Cecil): My Lords, before the noble Lord, Lord Noel-Buxton, rises to speak I should like to make an appeal to him to postpone his Motion to-day. Some little time ago, the noble Lord intimated to me that he proposed to raise a discussion on the application of the Atlantic Charter to Germany. At that time—I want to be quite frank with your Lordships' House—I did not ask him to refrain. But subsequently further statements were made on behalf of His Majesty's Government in another place in answer to questions, and in particular last week, on March 30, my right honourable friend the Prime Minister said:
    "I do not want to say much about it at the present time. I think that it might lead us into more difficulties."
    In view of this statement I got into touch with the noble Lord, Lord Noel-Buxton, and asked him to postpone his Motion until the subject could be properly discussed. Unfortunately, he felt unable at that time to meet 111e, except on the condition that the debate should take place at a fixed date immediately after Easter.
    I do not say this in any spirit of complaint—I am fully aware that I gave the noble Lord extremely short notice—I only state it a; a fact. I must, however, tell your Lordships' House what I have already told the noble Lord, that this Motion at the present time puts His Majesty's Government in a position of very considerable difficulty. Evidently the time is approaching when a further statement on this subject must be made. As the Prime Minister himself said in another place on March 22:
    "It is evident that, as the changing phases of the war succeed one another, some further clarification will be required of the position under the document which has become honourably known as the Atlantic Charter, and that this must be a subject for renewed consultation between the principal Allies."
    Until that consultation has taken place, it is really not possible for a further statement to be made by His Majesty's Government. The Atlantic Charter, as your Lordships know, has now received the adhesion of the Governments of all the United Nations and if each of these Governments started to give its own interpretation
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    of its provisions, great confusion must result, which would be of no assistance to those who ultimately will have to frame the peace. I can tell your Lordships' House that His Majesty's Government are at present proposing the initiation of discussion with their Allies on this subject. Moreover, I would remind your Lordships that the Dominion Prime Ministers will be here in the comparatively near future, and no doubt they will have something to say on this matter. To anticipate all these discussions by a unilateral declaration would not be helpful, as I am sure your Lordships would agree, to the deliberations of the Governments concerned, and might very naturally be resented.
    His Majesty's Government have again carefully considered the terms of the noble Lord's Motion since I spoke to him last week, and with every desire to meet your Lordships' wishes they are bound strongly to deprecate a debate on this question for the time being. They believe that it is likely to be harmful, and might be very harmful, at the present juncture. I say this with great regret. As your Lordships know, it has been my main concern since I have had the privilege of leading your Lordships' House to ensure that every practicable opportunity is given for full and free debate. But the needs of the international situation at a time like this must outweigh every other consideration. If there are any of your Lordships who feel that they must express their views to-day, that is a mattter for them and not for me. I can only appeal to them as strongly as I may. But I hope they will, in any case, understand that it would be impossible for His Majesty's Government to add to-day to what the Prime Minister has already said. I could make no further contribution to the debate.
    I would not, however, wish the House to think that there need necessarily be any long delay in clarifying the position under the Atlantic Charter. I am authorized to say that a statement will be made in the future, and possibly in the near future, when the situation allows of it. But I cannot, to-day, fix a date. My chief regret is that your Lordships have been brought here to-day on what may appear to be false pretences. But for that I hope the House will acquit me of any intentional discourtesy. I can only express my most sincere regrets for any inconvenience

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    which may have been occasioned, and which I certainly would have avoided had it been possible. The desire of the Government—I will repeat it once more, if I may—is that a statement should be made as soon as possible; and then they will welcome expressions of your Lordships' views. Until then, I hope the House will exercise patience. Hasty or unconsidered words can only do more harm than good, and prejudice the chance of that just and enduring peace on which all our minds are set, and which alone will make worth while the sacrifices and sorrows which we have endured.
    LORD NOEL-BUXTON: My Lords, I am bound to say that I deeply regret that the noble Viscount, the Leader of the House, has had to make this request. I think that it would have been to the public advantage that views held among your Lordships should be expressed on this very vital question, but in the circumstances I, naturally, have no course open to me but to accede to his request. I shall have his approval, I think, in keeping the Motion, in some form, on the Paper, and we shall look forward to the debate which the noble Leader foretells at a not too distant date. I should like to ask him if he will make a very particular point of informing me, at the earliest possible moment, when he comes to the conclusion that a debate would be in the public advantage. With that, I express my willingness, or I should say my decision rather than my willingness, to accede to his request.
    LORD ADDISON: My Lords, may I take this opportunity of paying a tribute to the Leader of the House in this matter? We know that he must have been exceedingly reluctant to make the statement which he has had to make at this late time, and we acknowledge the great courtesy with which he has always tried to meet our wishes in initiating discussions. In the circumstances, when he assures us, as he does, with full responsibility, that it would be harmful to have this discussion at the present time—I am using his own words—my noble friend Lord Noel-Buxton clearly has no alternative but to accede to his suggestion. I hope that the noble Lord may be assured, and I think that he will be, that the noble Viscount, the Leader of the House, will agree to his keeping
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    the Motion on the Paper in some form, and that the noble Viscount, as soon as he can, will let him know when it is opportune for us to discuss this vitally important subject.
    VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: My Lords, I am most grateful to my noble friend Lord Noel-Buxton for his courtesy in agreeing to postpone his Motion in the rather abnormal conditions which prevail. I can assure him that I will certainly inform him when it is possible for the Government to make a statement on this subject, and I hope that the date will not be too long delayed. It is certainly not the object of the Government to hold up discussion on this question. It is merely the international situation that makes it difficult for them to accede to his wish to -day. I think that what he suggests—namely, that the Motion should be left on the Paper with no date named—would be an admirable plan, and I hope that he will adopt that course.

    COST OF LAND.
    LORD SOUTHWOOD: My Lords, in the unavoidable absence of my noble friend Lord Latham, I beg to ask the question which stands in his name.
    [The question was as follows:
    To ask His Majesty's Government whether the proposed legislation for limiting the cost of land acquired for public purposes to values ruling at March, 1939, will include provision that such limitation shall apply retrospectively to any land purchased by local authorities for housing purposes before the legislation becomes operative.]
    VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: My Lords, in the absence of the Minister of Reconstruction, I will answer for him. The Bill itself will be introduced shortly, and it is better, I think, that I should not now anticipate its terms.
    LORD ADDISON: May I ask, as on a previous occasion, whether the wore "shortly" means before Whitsuntide?
    VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: "Shortly" means shortly.
    LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, this is not a starred question, but I do not propose to debate it. The noble Viscount says that a Bill will be introduced. I think

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    that I am within the recollection of your Lordships when I say that the last thing we were promised was a White Paper—or was it a Bill?
    VISCOUNT SAMUEL: Both.
    LORD STRABOLGI: The noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, tells me that we were promised both, but now we are promised only a Bill. It is the Bill which matters, of course. I think it right, however, to remind the noble Viscount, the Leader of the Hot se, and the other noble Lords who adorn the Government Bench at the ritornelli, that not only is this matter extraordinarily urgent, as we heard in a recent debate, from the point of view of the local
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    authorities, but every day's delay means more land speculation, and means in addition more legitimate purchases—perfectly legitimate and proper purchases. It is not fair to the genuine buyer that he should not know where he stands. I should have thought it would be possible to answer the narrow question put by my noble friend Lord Latham without waiting for the full text of the Bill; but if once more this is the Government's attitude, I suppose that there is no more that we can do about it except express our further regret. Personally, I hope that my noble friend Lord Latham will return to the charge in the very near future.
    House adjourned.