Lords Sitting of 30 November 1943

Preamble
The House met, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

PRINTING OF AMENDMENTS.
Ordered, That for the remainder of the present Session—

1. Notice of Amendments to be moved to a Bill in Committee may be handed in, printed and circulated before the Bill has been read a second time.

2. Amendments handed in to Bills brought from the Commons and not reprinted for this House be printed.

MINING INDUSTRY (WELFARE FUND) BILL, [H.L.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA AND BURMA (THE EARL OF MUNSTER): My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to continue the operation of Section 1 of the Mining Industry (Welfare Fund) Act, 1939, and to move that the Bill be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a. —(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

GUARDIANSHIP (REFUGEE CHILDREN) BILL. [H.L.]
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to provide for the guardianship of infants who have come to the United Kingdom in consequence of war or persecution, and to move that it be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a. —(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

COMMITTEE OF SELECTION.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF ONSLOW): My Lords, in moving that the various Standing Committees be appointed for this Session, perhaps your Lordships will allow me to
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draw attention to the fact that I am proposing certain changes. Many of your Lordships who have served on these Committees in the past have been unable to attend regularly, and I have tried, therefore, to find noble Lords who will be able to attend the House and serve on the Committees. I hope your Lordships will approve. The first Committee to be appointed is the Committee of Selection, and I beg to move the Motion standing in my name.
Moved, That a Committee be appointed to select and propose to the House the names of the five Lords to form a Select Committee for the consideration of each opposed Private Bill; and that the Lords following, with the Lord Chancellor and the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Committee:

M. Salisbury,

M. Bath,

M. Crewe,

E. Stanhope,

E. Lucan,

E. Vane (M. Londonderry),

V. Hutchinson (E. Donoughmore),

V. Mersey,

V. Hailsham,

V. Samuel,

V. Maugham,

L. Cecil (V. Cranborne),

L. Templemore,

L. Hare (E. Listowel),

L. Stanmore,

L. Ponsonby of Shulbrede,

L. Snell,

L. Hutchison of Montrose,

L. Mottistone,

L. Addison,

L. Nathan.

—(The Earl of Onslow.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name.
Moved, That a Standing Orders Committee be appointed, and that the Lords following, with the Lord Chancellor and the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Committee:

M. Salisbury,

M. Crewe,

E. Huntingdon,

E. Perth,

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E. Stanhope,

E. Malmesbury,

E. Lucan,

E. Vane (M. Londonderry),

E. Strafford,

V. Hutchinson (E. Donoughmore),

V. Mersey,

V. Ullswater,

V. Hailsham,

V. Samuel,

V. Maugham,

L. Strabolgi,

L. Cecil (V. Cranborne),

L. Ellenborough,

L. Clanwilliam (E. Clanwilliam),

L. Templemore,

L. Denman,

L. Hare (E. Listowel),

L. O'Hagan,

L. Stanmore,

L. Cozens-Hardy,

L. Faringdon,

L. Clwyd,

L. Jessel,

L. Ponsonby of Shulbrede,

L. Snell,

L. Rankeillour,

L. Hutchison of Montrose,

L. Milne,

L. Rushcliffe,

L. Addison,

L. Southwood,

L. Winster,

L. Latham,

L. Hemingford.

—(The Earl of Onslow.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
All Petitions relating to the Standing Orders which shall be presented during the present Session referred to the Committee unless otherwise ordered.

SPECIAL ORDERS COMMITTEE.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name.
Moved, That a Select Committee be appointed to consider all Special Orders of the present Session, and that the Lords following, with the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Committee:

D. Norfolk,

M. Salisbury,

M. Crewe,

E. Shrewsbury,

E. Perth,

E. Stanhope,

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E. Lucan,

E. Strafford,

E. Cromer,

E. Iveagh,

V. Hutchinson (E. Donoughmore),

V. Mersey,

V. Hailsham,

V. Samuel,

V. Maugham,

L. Strabolgi,

L. Cecil (V. Cranborne),

L. Templemore,

L. Denman,

L. Hare (E. Listowel),

L. O'Hagan,

L. Stanmore,

L. Cozens-Hardy,

L. Faringdon,

L. Ponsonby of Shulbrede,

L. Snell,

L. Rankeillour,

L. Hutchison of Montrose,

L. Elton,

L. Rushcliffe,

L. Addison,

L. Denham,

L. Kenilworth,

L. Belstead,

L. Winster,

L. Latham.

—(The Earl of Onslow.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICES.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name.
Moved, That a Select Committee on the House of Lords Offices be appointed, and that the Lords following, with the Lord Chancellor and the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Committee:

D. Norfolk,

M. Salisbury,

M. Bath,

M.. Cholmondeley,

M.. Zetland,

M.. Crewe,

E. Huntingdon,

E. Shaftesbury,

E. Perth,

E. Dartmouth,

E. Stanhope,

E. Ilchester,

E. De La Warr,

E. Clarendon,

E. Lucan,

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E. Bradford,

E. Vane (M. Londonderry),

E. Strafford,

E. Ancaster,

E. Cromer,

E. Iveagh,

E. Baldwin of Bewdley,

V. Hutchinson (E. Donoughmore),

V. Halifax,

V. Allendale,

V. Mersey,

V. FitzAlan of Derwent,

V. Ullswater,

V. Hailsham,

V. Samuel,

V. Caldecote,

V. Maugham,

L. Cecil (V. Cranborne),

L. Templemore,

L. Denman,

L. Hare (E. Listowel),

L. Rushcliffe,

L. Hylton,

L. Stanmore,

L. Redesdale,

L. Jessel,

L. Atkin,

L. Ponsonby of Shulbrede,

L. Macmillan,

L. Snell,

L. Moyne,

L. Rankeillour,

L. Hutchison of Montrose,

L. Mottistone,

L. Addison,

L. Southwood.

—(The Earl of Onslow.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Leave given to the Committee to report from time to time.

INDIA AND BURMA ORDERS COMMITTEE.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, in moving that the India and Burma Orders Committee be appointed I would ask your Lordships to observe that the name of my noble friend the Marquess of Linlithgow is not on the list. He will not be able to attend for some months, I understand, but I hope he will be able to join the Committee at a later date. I beg to move the Motion standing in my name.
Moved, That a Select Committee be appointed to consider all drafts of Orders laid before Parliament under Section 309 of the Government of India Act, 1935, or Section 157 of the Government of Burma
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Act, 1935, in the present Session; and that the Lords following, with the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Committee:

D. Devonshire,

E. Munster,

V. Stansgate,

L. Strabolgi,

L. Stanmore,

L. Hardinge of Penshurst,

L. Faringdon,

L. Rankeillour,

L. Hutchison of Montrose,

L. Hailey.

—(The Earl of Onslow).
On Question, Motion agreed to.

PROCEDURE OF THE HOUSE.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name.
Moved, That a Select Committee be appointed to consider whether alterations in the procedure of this House are advisable in the existing circumstances, and, if so, whether the Standing Orders do or do not require to be altered for that purpose; and that the Lords following, with the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Select Committee:

M. Salisbury,

M. Crewe,

E. Lucan,

V. Hutchinson (E. Donoughmore),

V. Ullswater,

L. Strabolgi,

L. Cecil (V. Cranborne),

L. Templemore,

L. Denman,

L. Hare (E. Listowel),

L. Stanmore,

L. Marley,

L. Ponsonby of Shulbrede,

L. Snell,

L. Moyne,

L. Rankeillour,

L. Addison.

—(The Earl of Onslow).
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMITTEE ON ESTATE BILLS.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name.
Moved, That the Standing Committee on Estate Bills be appointed, and that the Lords following, with the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Committee:

V. Hutchinson (E. Donoughmore),

V. Hailsham,

V. Maugham,

L. Romer.

—(The Earl of Onslow.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

POST-WAR RELIEF AND REHABILITATION.
LORD FARING DON LORD FARING DON rose to call the attention of His Majesty's Government to the United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Agreement; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, the Motion which stands in my name to-day is one which, as your Lordships will be aware, has made repeated appearances on the Order Paper during the last six months. I have postponed it several times at the request of His Majesty's Government and in so postponing it I hope I have given evidence that it is in no spirit of criticism that I raise the matter in your Lordships' House. Indeed, so far from being critical I would have wished to do nothing that could possibly interfere with what one must suppose were the delicate negotiations which were going on. On the contrary, I would have wished to do everything to help in this piece of post-war planning. My noble friends on this side of your Lordships' House believe, and I believe, it to be of the greatest importance, and we regard its coming to birth as perhaps the most important piece of post-war planning that has yet been brought to an active stage of development.
The draft agreement for U.N.R.R.A. was dated 15th May last, and on the 9th of this month, at Atlantic City, forty-four nations—including the United Nations, the Associated Nations, the French National Committee (and, counting as nations the British Dominions, I think there are forty-four in all, if I have counted correctly)—signed the agreement. If this matter had come up for debate in your Lordships' House when I first put my Motion on the Paper I had intended to go in some detail through the draft agreement, because I thought that probably quite a number of your Lord-
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ships then would not be fully informed as to what it aimed at and what it contained. As, however, since the meeting at Atlantic City a very considerable amount of publicity has been given to it in the Press—there was a lengthy article in The Times recently—all I will do is to read the very brief statement of the aims of U.N.R.R.A. which is included in the preamble to the agreement. That preamble sets out that the Governments or authorities whose duly authorized representatives have subscribed to the agreement,
"being determined that immediately upon the liberation of any area by the armed forces of the United Nations the population thereof shall receive aid and relief from their sufferings, food, clothing and shelter, aid in the prevention of pestilence and in the recovery of the health of the people, and that preparation and arrangements shall be made for the return of prisoners and exiles to their homes, for the resumption of agricultural and industrial production and the restoration of essential services, to the end that peoples once freed may be preserved and restored to health and strength for the tasks and opportunities of building anew,
have agreed as follows:"
That may be a comparatively brief statement of aims, but I think your Lordships will agree that it covers an immense field.
I would like, if I may, to express on my own behalf and on behalf of my noble friends on these Benches our satisfaction and pleasure at the unanimous election of Mr. Lehman, late Governor of New York State, to be Director-General of U.N.R.R.A. I hope your Lordships will excuse me if I use the abbreviated name for this organization instead of the rather vast mouthful of the full title. As regards the machinery which has been set up under the agreement there is first of all a Council on which all the member nations will be represented. This Council is to meet twice a year. What may be called the executive will be known as the Central Committee consisting of representatives of the United Kingdom, the United States of America, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and China, with, as Chairman, the Director-General who will have no vote. It will be the business of this Committee to make decisions—which by the way must be unanimous—and to report to the Council. The Council may, by a majority vote, reverse those decisions. I think this provision for a majority vote is very interesting, and I would like to

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draw your Lordships' particular attention to it because, as you will remember, much of the weakness of the League of Nations was due to the fact that unanimity was required and it was possible for the most essential plans to be obstructed by the vote of a single nation. One would have thought that the historical experience of Poland would have been enough to warn the makers of the League of Nations' constitution against this, but apparently they were not warned, and the League of Nations, in so far as it failed, failed, I think, very largely through weakness due, perhaps, to this particular provision. It is, indeed, an advance on the constitution of the International Labour Office whereby a two-thirds majority is required.
It is in fact majority government, but I think we should be unwise if we drew, as it were, a democratic analogy between individual voters and nations. I do not think that it is necessarily true that for an international organization to be democratic nations must be represented simply by their nationhood. I should be the last to wish in any way to coerce or to overbear the smaller nations; none the less it is, I think, important that small nations perhaps remote from the centre affected by any particular question should not have too great a power of voting. It is, therefore, in my view, correct and reasonable that this Central Committee should consist of the four great Powers. There is, I submit, nothing in the least undemocratic in that. Indeed, if we were to take democracy as being heads of voters it would be a thoroughly democratic arrangement. In fact, the vast majority of the world would be represented on the Central Committee. The Executive is to be a Director-General, who will report to the Central Committee and to the Council. There will be a number of Committees, and, of these, clearly the most important is going to be the Supplies Committee. That Committee is to consist of the principal supplier nations who will be appointed by the Council. The Chairman, who is to be a Canadian, will be invited by the members of the Central Committee to sit with them whenever questions of supplies are under discussion.
Now I mentioned at the beginning that there were forty-four nations (including the United Nations, the Associated Nations
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and the French National Committee of Liberation) in this. There are at present no neutral members of U.N.R.R.A., and it has occurred to me that perhaps His Majesty's Government can give me some enlightenment as I have been wondering what will be the position of supplies coming from nations, at present neutral but able to be very large producers of essential supplies, that are not members of U.N.R.R.A. Perhaps His Majesty's Government can give me some information as to what will be the position of supplies being drawn from those nations.
At the meeting at Atlantic City, Sir Frederick Leith-Ross presented a report, which was indeed a report of which we had heard rumours for a longish time, of the Inter-Allied Post-War Requirements Committee. We are all pleased that this report has now seen the light of day, and it has, I think, made clear to all those who did not appreciate them before the enormous difficulties of the post-war relief and rehabilitation problem. Your Lordships will not, I hope, be bored if I give some relevant figures. To me they seem of tremendous interest, and I hope that your Lordships will find them equally interesting if you have not already seen them. It has been calculated that 45,855,000 tons of food, seeds, fuel, clothing, raw materials, machinery and medical supplies will be required.
It may be of some interest if I mention some of the amounts which will be drawn from various sources. Half of this very enormous quantity of materials will come from the Continent itself; it is estimated that 9,500,000 tons will come from North America—that is Canada, the United States and Mexico—and that about 3,500,000 tons will come from the United Kingdom. It is to me, at any rate, a source of pride that so very large a proportion should come from this country. It is a source of pride to me that we should be in a position—or rather that we should expect to be in a position— to help our less fortunate neighbours on the Continent to this extent; and I think that the figure of 3,500,000 tons, when one notes that the whole American continent is producing 9,500,000 tons, is a very creditable percentage. Of the total amount 7,332,000 tons are expected to take the form of food, over 11,000,000 tons the form of fuel—coal and coke— and about 9,500,000 tons base metals. Drugs and medical supplies, it is calcu-

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lated, will amount to 89,000 tons. These are astronomical figures. They are in fact so large that I find it—and I dare say some of your Lordships also find it—very difficult to realize just what they mean. We all lave to deal with figures of a certain size in our daily life, and when figures get beyond that size it is very difficult really to grasp them. But I hope it will be appreciated how tremendous is this problem.
The thing that perturbs me a little bit in this connexion, if I may say so, that is to say in connexion with U.N.R.R.A. and its relationship to these supplies, is that, so far as I can make out, U.N.R.R.A. is given no powers of planning. I am not quite clear what is, in fact, anticipated. If these vast supplies are to be needed, clearly their production will have to be planned. Will this planning be done by the Hot Springs Conference, and if so what in fact is already being done to that end? Quite clearly it may well be that the things which are most profitable to produce arc not the things most urgently needed by a large proportion of the population of this world. It is essential, I think, that there should be some co-ordinated planning. The Hot Springs Conference made it clear not only that there was going to be an inevitable and very great shortage of supplies, but also that the first thing that would have to be done would be simply to fill human bellies—to fill them so that they should not remain empty. It is not suggested that at first it would be possible to fill them with what is necessarily the best or most desirable thing to put into them. The first and foremost requirement would be to put something in. Now that will require a certain amount, in fact a very great deal of planning, and I would like to know whether His Majesty's Government can tell me by whom and how these plans are to be made.
As between the draft agreement of the 15th May, and the final agreement, signed on the 9th November, certain amendments were made. About one of the proposals, I confess, I am not entirely happy. It may be that I am unnecessarily anxious, and that His Majesty's Government can put my mind entirely at rest, but one of the suggested amendments, which was due, apparently, to a suggestion by the British representative, was that nations which had the money and which had shipping should be allowed to
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buy for their own use outside the control of U.N.R.R.A. I regret very much that our representative should have been mandated, as I presume he must have been, to make what seems to me such an exceedingly retrograde suggestion, and I am glad that that suggestion was rejected by the Council. The Director-General remarked that the adoption of this suggestion would turn U.N.R.R.A. into a mere debating society. As a kind of compromise, however, it was laid down that Governments may buy for relief and rehabilitation purposes only with the consent of the Director-General, who may refuse his consent if he considers that such purchases would act to the detriment of other nations and peoples, but that there should be an appeal from the Director-General to the combined Boards.
This is a situation which makes me somewhat anxious, and which also puzzles me. There are eight of these combined Boards. They are fairly independent entities, and it seems to me that, if this appeal is to be allowed, some sort of supreme economic planning board will be required to co-ordinate the policies of the combined Boards. I should be interested to know whether it is the policy of His Majesty's Government to encourage appeals from the Director-General to the combined Boards. The situation is one which seems to me to be curious, and to require a certain amount of explanation.
Another alteration in the draft is one which I think was due to a report by a sub-committee at Atlantic City, which laid it down that the action of U.N.R.R.A. should be limited to urgently needed agricultural and industrial production. This too is an amendment about which I feel very anxious. The Hot Springs Conference made it perfectly clear that hunger would stalk abroad in the world for a period of years after the war. Is U.N.R.R.A. going to limit its activities to the immediate relief of the most pressing needs, and then step back and leave these starving markets to be exploited by perhaps not altogether well-intentioned persons who will be able to take advantage of scarcity? This limitation is one which I deplore, and I hope that His Majesty's Government can tell me that it does not mean anything quite so drastic as I have envisaged.
I have dealt at some length—I hope that I have not wearied your Lordships— with the activities of the Supplies Com-

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mittee. There will then be the Regional Committees. There will be a Regional Committee for Europe, and another for the Far East. The functions of these Committees are apparently to be advisory only. I should like the view of His Majesty's Government as to whether it would not be advisable to give these Committees rather greater powers. I cannot help feeling that to make these Committees—which, of course, consist of the nations most closely interested in the relief of post-war distress—merely advisory, reporting to a Council which will consist of a large number of very remote nations, well-intentioned, no doubt, but remote from the problem, and many of them, happily for themselves, comparatively untouched by the war, may not be entirely desirable, and I should like to know the view of the Government on the question of whether additional powers should not be vested in these Regional Committees.
There is then a Technical Standing Committee on Repatriation. Vast as the problem which will be faced by the Supplies Committee will be, no less vast, and in some way, perhaps, more horrifying, will be the problem which the Repatriation Committee will have to face. Computations as to the number of persons at the moment removed from their homes, who will desire or require repatriation after the war, have varied between fifteen million and thirty million, and I am assured that a fairly conservative estimate would place the figure at round about twenty million. My own feeling is that the first problem of this Committee will be not to repatriate people but to get them to stay where they are. If you have between twenty million and thirty million people who are trying— heaven knows one cannot blame them for trying; one would probably try oneself in their place—to return to their homes the moment that the war ends, the congestion on the roads and railways will be appalling, the difficulties of getting supplies of food and other essentials to those who need them will be immensely greater, and the distribution of relief will be enormously more complicated, if from day to day it is not possible to tell how many people will have to be catered for in a given place.
This problem seems to me to be colossal, and to be one which will need the
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most careful handling. It will, I submit, be essential to give these people confidence in the organizations which are looking after them. It will be necessary to use all the resources of broadcasting to prevent them from making an appalling situation worse. This is, I believe, one of the most difficult problems of the post-war period, and it is one with which I sincerely hope that U.N.R.R.A. or the Inter-Governmental Committee on Refugees, or the two bodies jointly, will be able to deal. I am sure that the essential thing will be to inspire confidence, to make people feel that although they may not be able to return home their families are being looked after, and to make the people at home feel that their exiled relations are also being cared for. It will be necessary, to take an obvious example, to make the French refugees who have fled from Alsace-Lorraine understand that it would be dangerous and undesirable for them to return to their homes until the Germans who have moved in there have been returned to Germany. These problems are truly of a frightening nature, and I shall be interested if the Government can give me any information as to what are and what are going to be the relations between this Technical Standing Committee on Repatriation and the Inter-Governmental Committee on Refugees. I understand that the Inter-Governmental Committee have issued a report. Perhaps it is not immediately relevant, but the noble Viscount who is to reply may be able to tell me whether that report is to be made available; I am sure that its contents will be of the greatest possible interest. Then there is to be a Technical Standing Committee on Nutrition. I take it that this Committee will act in consultation with the Interim Commission on Food and Agriculture.
I would like to ask whether the noble Earl can tell me what is to be the position of pre-U.N.R.R.A. purchases that may have been made by Governments able to make purchases. Will these as it were be turned into the common pool, and will U.N.R.R.A. undertake their distribution; or will they be used solely for the advantage of the country which has been able to make them? Then again it is definitely laid down that purchases which are for purposes of relief and rehabilitation must pass through U.N.R.R.A.; they must receive the approval of the Director-

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General. I rather wonder whether it will be possible for nations, who may say that this or hat purchase is not for the purposes of relief or rehabilitation, to make purchases outside the control of U.N.R.R.A. on that pretence.
Article VII is the military clause, and states that U.N.R.R.A. shall only take over control when the military commander of any given area shall give his permission. This, of course, is a provision which naturally one cannot possibly question or criticize, but I should have supposed that the inclination of any military commander would be to relieve himself of a responsibility so inherently alien to his natural sphere, and that there would be a comparatively short period before U.N.R.R.A. would be permitted, and indeed encouraged, to take over its work in any particular area.
I would like to ask whether His Majesty's Government can give me any information—and whilst it is not immediately under the head of my Motion it is, I think, relevant—about the permanent organization that is being set up as the result of the Hot Springs Conference, because, as I have already said, it seems to me that these two activities must necessarily be inter-related. Someone has to do the planning. U.N.R.R.A. does not seem to have the power, it seems to be a distributing agency. But planning has to be done, and if it is to be the Hot Springs Conference, it is clearly of the greatest importance for the success of U.N.R.R.A. that the Hot Springs Conference should be immediately preparing, and indeed putting into operation, plans for the production of the goods that U.N.R.R.A. will distribute. I should like also, if I may, to say how pleased I am that Mr. Phelan, of the I.L.O., has been called into consultation and will be, I understand, an advisory member of U.N.R.R.A. There is one point, too, about personnel. I understand that civil servants have been told that they can apply for transfer to U.N.R.R.A. I do not know whether the noble Earl will be able to tell me to what extent advantage has been taken of that offer, what number of personnel is expected to be recruited for this work, and how far it has at present progressed.
I have run very briefly through what I am sure your Lordships will agree is one of the most important matters of the day. It has, I venture to think, perhaps even
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more than its immediate and self-evident importance—its importance for the purposes of relief; it seems to me that it may be a form of international government in embryo. Our previous efforts in the League of Nations were not entirely successful. I rather wonder whether perhaps the future world order will evolve from the nations coming together as they are coming together in U.N.R.R.A. for certain specific purposes, and whether, as a result of experience so gained, we may not see the World State emerge. I beg to move.
THE MINISTER OF ECONOMIC WARFARE (THE EARL OP SELBORNE): My Lords, I would like to thank the noble Lord for his stimulating and well-informed speech, and I should like also to thank him for having postponed this Motion on more than one occasion in response to requests from His Majesty's Government. I am sure he will agree with me that inasmuch as this agreement was only signed on the 9th of this month a discussion in your Lordships' House might have been inopportune when the wording of the agreement was under negotiation among the different Governments involved. As your Lordships are aware, the Council of U.N.R.R.A.—and I think I must follow the noble Lord's example (which I was sorry to see did not meet with the approval of my noble friend opposite) in using the abbreviated term, because the full title of the organization is so very lengthy—
LORD MOTTISTONE: I do not agree.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: The first meeting of the Council is at this moment in session in Atlantic City and the Council is discussing the very points that the noble Lord dealt with in his speech. Therefore, if I am unable on this occasion to give him an answer to all—indeed to a great many—of his questions, I hope he will excuse me. He will agree that it would not assist matters if His Majesty's Government in your Lordships' House were to take the words out of the mouths of their delegates in Atlantic City and try to take part in the debate from a distance of 3,000 miles. Therefore a statement on the part of His Majesty's Government in regard to the very questions which are being now debated at Atlantic City must, I think, await the conclusion of the Con-

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ference. No doubt your Lordships will want to have a full report in regard to the session.
There are, however, some things that I can say this afternoon and I shall endeavour to give my noble friend as much information as I can. As he has pointed out, this organization is a great international experiment, possibly the greatest international experiment that has been attempted since the League of Nations, and it aims at achieving co-operative action in the provision of relief. Each of the forty-four Governments that have signed the agreement pledges its full support, subject to the terms of its Constitution, and I need hardly say that His Majesty's Government give their full support to the agreement. It is indeed, our belief that only a concerted effort will make it possible to deal with the aftermath of enemy occupation. The first duty of the organization is the provision of relief for victims and dealing with refugees in any areas brought under the control of the United Nations. The noble Lord seemed to think that the organization would have no right of planning. I can assure him that he is mistaken in that. Planning and the giving of advice to member Governments and the co-ordination of national policy relating to relief are certainly among the most important duties of the organization. I agree with him that none of this work could proceed except upon a planned basis, and the principal object in setting up the organization is to create machinery which will be capable of evolving plans. The organization is framed with a view to ensuring full representation of the interested Governments and nations and, at the same time, providing concentration of executive authority.
Noble Lords will see that in dealing with an emergency of this nature rapid executive action may in many cases be necessary. The way this is provided is by the Council and its Regional Committees. Although the Central Committee only consists of the four biggest nations, noble Lords will remember that any Government concerned has a right to attend the Central Committee when questions affecting it are under discussion. Speedy executive action will be very necessary, and for this purpose wide powers have been vested in the Director-General. I
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should like on behalf of His Majesty's Government to echo what the noble Lord said in extending a welcome to Mr. Lehman as the first Director-General. No man is more qualified to occupy that very onerous and responsible post.
The noble Lord pointed out the seriousness of the problem of supplies. He quoted certain figures on which I shall not comment this afternoon, because they are all under examination and will have to be most carefully examined. There is no doubt, however, that there will be very serious world shortages of supplies in food and other commodities, and the idea that peace will immediately bring plenty is entirely fallacious. The Supplies Committee of U.N.R.R.A., about which the noble Lord spoke, consists of the principal supplying nations as well as of the great Powers. The Director-General will work in the closest collaboration with the supply authorities of the United Nations. The task of meeting requirements for relief supplies must rest with the existing Government supply allocation agencies. By that I mean that there are combined Boards in Washington, and we have our own Ministries in this country dealing with supplies, while other nations have similar organizations. This must be the organization that produces the supplies, that makes the supplies available, which knows how much is available, and which will be able to report to the U.N.R.R.A. Council or to the Director-General. Therefore, the actual handling of the supplies must necessarily be through these agencies. That places a special responsibility on the British and American Governments which have control of these raw materials and shipping so largely in their hands.
The problem, as the noble Lord pointed out, is not going to be an easy one. It is going to be a very serious problem indeed, because not only is there this world shortage of supplies and shortage of shipping but if, as we anticipate, peace comes in more stages than one, so that peace may be established in Europe while war is still raging in Asia, the work of relief in Europe and in other parts of the world where it is possible will have to be carried out pari passu with waging war to the greatest extent of our powers on the other side of the world. That is necessarily going to complicate the problem very much. The noble Lord pointed out that the agreement provides

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for two Regional Committees, one for Europe, one for the Far East, and seemed to criticize the fact that they would only have advisory powers. If the matter is considered it will be seen that, as a matter of management and organization, the executive function must reside in the Director-General and the Central Committee, and that the Regional Committees and other Committees to which the noble Lord referred necessarily have to be of an advisory character.
May I say this to noble Lords? This agreement must not be treated like the constitution of a nation which has been worked out as the result of years of discussion and adjustment. This agreement is of a tentative character, and I have no doubt that, as the organization continues, so it will evolve in the directions found to be most suitable. If the agreement is read, it will be found that in certain places the i's are not dotted and the t's are not crossed. Noble Lords will agree that it is right that this should be so. We are embarking, as I have said, on a great international experiment, and the nations of the world will have to feel their way towards a solution of these tremendous problems on a basis of cooperation and planning. Therefore I think it would be a mistake to assume that functions in all respects are fixed for ever. The organization provides a framework round which perhaps something more elaborate can be built in years to come. The discussions in Atlantic City will enable all the problems that the noble Lord so eloquently referred to to be discussed by men with expert knowledge and by men intimately concerned. I think those discussions themselves will be most informative to all of us and will assist us to see the problem in truer perspective when we get the full reports.
The noble Lord asked me a question about the neutrals. I agree with him that it is desirable that neutrals should if possible be associated with this organization. That is one of the points which will probably be considered in Atlantic City and therefore I cannot at this moment give him an answer to his question. We must agree with the noble Lord that a new chapter may be opening which will be of great moment for international co-operation. The problems that will confront us in peace will be hardly smaller than the problems that confront us in
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war. In this organization we are taking time by the forelock. We are preparing for the peace and we are preparing for it in a spirit of co-operation, a spirit of search for a solution on which the future of the whole world will greatly depend. Therefore we can send to those men of all nations now represented at Atlantic City our best wishes that they may be guided and inspired to find a solution of problems so difficult.
LORD ADDISON: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friends I should like to associate them with what the noble Lord said in the concluding part of his speech and to say how heartily we would wish to join in the message of good will to our colleagues at Atlantic City which he hoped we should send. I think we are greatly indebted to my noble friend for raising this vastly important subject in this House and to the noble Earl who has replied for the Government. He has, I am sure, gone as far as he could at this stage, and we can only express the hope that this first and very early discussion will be the precursor of quite a number of discussions in which your Lordships' House can render material and constructive assistance in this subject, which is of world-wide consequence. We hope, too, that the efforts now being made will have the success we all long for.
LORD MOTTISTONE: My Lords, I can say that we in this quarter of the House will join heartily in wishing well to this great organization in confronting a task which would appear to be almost beyond human power. Personally I do not like the use of the word "Unrra." I think so august a body with so high a mission should not be permanently scarred with such a beastly title, and I hope it is not really to go on being called by such a name. A better name is required, and I think the wit of this House is capable of finding one for this organization. But I rose really to say how heartily I agree with the Leader of the Opposition on behalf of all my friends in wishing well to this most important work.
LORD FARINGDON: My Lords, I was sorry the noble Earl suggested that I was critical of something of which in fact I was not critical. I was inquiring and was a little doubtful. I think he, too, implied in his remarks upon evolution that there

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were possibilities and capabilities of development which one could not foresee a; present in detail. I would have preferred to have a rather fuller reply from the noble Earl, though I perfectly well appreciate, as the Council is at present sitting in Atlantic City, that that was not to-day possible. Your Lordships, who know what pressure there is upon your time, will understand why, this date having been fixed for this discussion (by which time I had hoped the Atlantic City meeting would have concluded), the date could not be easily changed. I confess I did not entirely follow the noble Earl when he suggested that U.N.R.R.A. has powers of planning. It has powers of planning distribution, but what I drew attention to was, as it seemed to me, its lack of power for planning production. That was my point and that is a point which I do not think, if I may say so with deference, the noble Earl cleared up, at least to me. He pointed out, of course quite rightly, that the figures I gave are at the best guesses, and they may be wide of the mark though they are produced by experts. I was not quite clear either what the noble Earl meant when he said that the Supply Boards would act as agents, as it were, for
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U.N.R.R.A. I quite appreciate his point that the Supply Departments and Boards in various countries must necessarily be in a position to supply U.N.R.R.A. with information.
I apologize to the noble Lord, Lord Mottistone, for using that name again as it hurts his feelings; I see him wince every time I use it while looking at the Bench on which he sits. But I would point out to him that a nickname is generally a term of affection. What I wish to ask the noble Earl is whether the Supply Boards will receive from U.N.R.R.A. information as to what in their view should be produced and if they will be in a position to guide or to enforce the required production. It is unfortunate, I think, that owing to the fact that the Council is still sitting the noble Earl was unable to give us further information. I thank him very much, however, for what he has given. I am sure your Lordships, like myself, were extremely interested in what he said and we look forward with anxiety to a later occasion when he will be able to report fully on the decisions of the Council. I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.
House adjourned.