Lords Sitting of 31 March 1943

Preamble
The House met, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
LORD MORAN.
Sir Charles McMoran Wilson, Knight, M.C., having been created Baron Moran of Manton in the County of Wilts—Was (in the usual manner) introduced.

LEICESTER GAS ORDER, 1943.
LORD SNELL: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Templemore, I beg to move that the Special Order which stands on the Order Paper in his name be approved.
Moved, That the Special Order, as reported from the Special Orders Committee yesterday, be approved.—(Lord Snell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

CYPRUS.
LORD FARINGDON LORD FARINGDON had given Notice that he would draw the attention of His Majesty's Government to the situation in Cyprus; ask whether, in view of the presence of the Governor in this country, they are prepared to make a statement; and move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I would not wish it to be thought that in raising this question to-day I have any intention of criticizing the foreign policy of His Majesty's Government. The fact of the matter is that I am here to-day to extract information, if possible, about the island of Cyprus from His Majesty's Government, and, as I have pointed out in my Motion, I hope that this may be an opportune moment to ask for such information in view of the recent visit to this country of the Governor. Though the general public have had very little information from Cyprus since the beginning of the war, some of that information which has reached us has been somewhat disquieting, and I hope that His Majesty's Government will be able to set some at least of our anxieties at rest. The very small attendance in your Lordships'
1024
House would seem to me to be some indication that a comparatively small number of your Lordships have visited this island because, as one who has—and I know that my noble friend Lord Mersey will agree with me—my conviction is that it would be very difficult for anybody who has visited Cyprus, even for the shortest time, to fail to come under her spell.
Many of those who have come under that spell will, I think, share with me the feeling of surprise that this island, in appearance at any rate, so nearly approximating to an earthly Paradise, whose beauty can compare, I think, with that of any other island, whose history is probably more interesting and absorbing and whose national monuments are more remarkable than those of any other territory of equal size—will, I repeat, share my surprise that in actual fact this island was before the war the scene of very regrettable disturbances. It would have seemed to many of us that with a minimum of tact, with a minimum of care, and a proper sense of our responsibility towards the people of this island, there need never have occurred any of the disturbances of which I speak, nor should there have been any of the separatist propaganda, agitation, and feeling which undoubtedly did exist. Although it is true that the majority of the population of Cyprus speak Greek, Cyprus was riot, as your Lordships will be aware, really a part of the ancient classical Greek world—that is to say, it was a part of the world, but not in any sense part of the Greek world. Despite the fact that ethnologists deny people the right to have certain racial feelings, none the less they may have these feelings, believing themselves, as one would be justified in believing in this case, to be of a race that has a great heritage.
None the less, I feel, in the case of Cyprus, that only the mismanagement of which I have spoken could really have given strength to the movement in favour of union with the mainland of Greece which, as I say, is not truly the mother country of the Cypriots, and which is also a country from which they could obtain no possible advantages. The Cypriots can have no feelings of loyalty to the Greek Royal House, and Cyprus produces practically the same produce as Greece. Greece could not offer the Cypriots as much as the British could offer, nor the advantages which inclusion in the British

1025
Empire should have been able to give them. There is, in addition, the consideration that of the population of this island roughly four-fifths are Greek and one-fifth Turkish. This minority would find itself, in a union with Greece, a very small minority indeed, whereas in Cyprus, by itself, it is a very influential section of the population. For these reasons I hope very much that the present movement which exists in favour of an autonomous Cyprus—a self-governing Colony within the British Empire—will receive the encouragement it deserves, and which I feel will be for the greatest advantage both of Cyprus and of the British Empire.
Unfortunately, as the result of the political disturbances I have mentioned, the Cyprus Constitution was suspended in 1931. This is no time to reintroduce Constitutions though we have made a happy exception to this rule in Jamaica. But clearly Cyprus is in a different position, from the point of view of its proximity to the war areas, than Jamaica, and I am not suggesting that it is possible at the present time to restore the Cypriot Constitution. I hope, however, that His Majesty's Government may be able to give us some information as to their postwar intentions in this respect. Not only was the Constitution suspended in 1931, but also all municipal elections, and every kind of Government official and municipal official—even the teacher—was appointed by the Governor. It has recently been announced that municipal elections are to be held. I shall be glad if His Majesty's Government can give us definite information as to when these elections will, in fact, be held.
Before the war—and I am afraid a great deal, the more reliable part, of my information about Cyprus is pre-war, because so little has come through since the war began—considerable anxieties were expressed in this country about the suppression of civil liberty in Cyprus. The police have had, and so far as I know, may still have, the right to stop and search persons entering premises and to search premises without a warrant. There were suggestions of something uncommonly like persecution of certain individuals who had shown excessive zeal in a liberal direction. I am happy to say that, so far as I know, this is a purely pre-war affair, and an occurrence which was, I believe, limited to two particular
1026
cases. The Press was subjected to a censorship until 1937, when it was removed. Unfortunately by that time the effective part of the censorship had, under. Law 36 of 1936, become a part of the Law of the land, and the Governor has such extensive powers over the Press in Cyprus as to constitute a censorship. I should like to ask His Majesty's Government whether this is still the position in Cyprus, and whether they are not prepared to institute in Cyprus, as in this country, a censorship whose only object shall be, not the suppression of news, but the suppression of information or news liable to be of advantage to the enemy.
As in so many of our Colonies, and perhaps in this Colony more than most, one of the most urgent problems and one of the most difficult problems is that of finance. In Cyprus this particular problem is complicated by the long and, in my view, regrettable history of the payment of tribute. This is a somewhat involved tale with which I will not weary your Lordships, but it arises, to put it briefly, from the fact that when Cyprus was occupied in 1870 by the British an undertaking was entered into with the Sultan to pay to him a matter of £93,000 a year. This money was raised by taxation from the Cypriots despite the fact that at that time, if I remember correctly—and I speak subject to correction—the total revenue of the island was only about £140,000. I repeat that I say that subject to correction, but I think it is roughly right. Clearly an increase of this kind was crippling, and after a certain time it was found that so dire had become the poverty of the country and so critical the financial situation, that it was necessary for the British Government to give grants in aid amounting to about £50,000 a year. However, the tribute continued to be collected when it was no longer paid to the Sultan—that is to say, after the annexation of Cyprus. It still continued to be collected and the money so raised was devoted, I believe, to the payment of the shareholders in the Ottoman Debt. This is a transaction of which we as British people cannot be very proud and one which I think 'your Lordships in fairness will be bound to admit would not unnaturally make the foundation for a somewhat bitter feeling in Cyprus itself. I hope that something may be done to remove this feeling.
A declaration was made in another place recently, in answer to a question, that it was the intention of His Majesty's Government to refund the amount of the tribute which was collected—that is to say, to refund it annually for the benefit of the Colony. His Majesty's Government, however, apparently found it impossible to consider the repayment of the total amount, coming to, I think, about £2,500,000, which had already been extracted from the Cypriot people. I believe that now she has introduced the necessary labour legislation Cyprus will be entitled to qualify for a share of the Colonial Development Fund, or at any rate, to put forward a claim for consideration in connexion with that Fund. I would suggest that from the point of view of the feelings of the Cypriot people and the relations between themselves and ourselves, it might be a far more graceful gesture on the part of His Majesty's Government, not to give them a grant out of the Colonial Development Fund, but to admit o our fault and to give back to them the tribute which has been levied upon them.
I would like also to ask His Majesty's Government how the Cypriot revenue is raised. There is, I understand, likely to be a very considerable deficit this year, amounting to something in the neighbourhood of £300,000. Certainly until the beginning of the war there was no direct taxation in Cyprus. The result inevitably was that her people, already reduced to considerable poverty, were further impoverished by the weight of the taxation of which I have spoken, the vast bulk of the revenue being raised by Customs. May I ask His Majesty's Government whether they either have introduced, or intend to introduce, Income Tax and Death Duties in Cyprus?
I have previously mentioned the fact that I understand His Majesty's Government have introduced legislation covering the organization of trade unions and also a Minimum Wage Bill. Perhaps His Majesty's Government can give me some information as to the effect of this legislation on the strength and numbers of the trade unions and also as to whether in fact any action has been taken under the minimum wage law. The introduction at an early date of laws dealing with workmen's compensation and with the
1028
hours and conditions of labour has been promised in Cyprus. Your Lordships may think I am putting a great many questions, but I have given the noble Duke notice of them. Therefore I would like to ask when we may expect this legislation dealing with workmen's compensation and hours and conditions of labour to be brought into force. This particular legislation does seem to me to be of the very greatest importance. I have brought this Motion before your Lordships' House to-day very largely because of the reports received in this country of strikes and labour disturbances in Cyprus, as I think those reports are an indication of the labour conditions in Cyprus.
It may be of some interest if I read to your Lordships the demands of the strikers who were working on the defence works. They asked first of all for minimum wages. They asked for regular fortnightly payments, for warning sirens, for A.R.P. shelters and for transport of workers. I might mention in passing that the question of transport seems to be a very burning question in Cyprus. There seems to be a very considerable shortage of lorries, of petrol and of tyres, with the result that transport has become a very material item in the budget of every working man. They asked for medical treatment, and compensation for accident and death. I think all of us in this country would agree that these demands are of the most elementary kind, and if workers in factories find it necessary to strike over demands of that sort it would appear to indicate clearly that something is wrong. I therefore ask His Majesty's Government most particularly whether they can give any assurance about the introduction of legislation covering workmen's compensation and hours and conditions of labour.
A great deal of trouble apparently has arisen, if the scanty reports which reach me are accurate, over the food supply in Cyprus. There have been shortages and, apparently, great confusion in distribution. There have been regrettable scenes and scrambles in the markets. The Governor in his speech in November last gave a list of commodities which he considered it necessary to control. It was a fairly extensive and comprehensive list. Perhaps His Majesty's Government will tell us whether these commodities have

1029
now in fact been controlled and whether that control is complete.
Finally, I must say one word about wages and the cost of living. When he was recently asked in another place about wage conditions in Cyprus, the Prime Minister made what, I am afraid, was regarded by most Cypriots as a most flippant answer. It was to the effect that when in Cyprus he had advised Cypriots to save the remarkably good wages they were then receiving against a rainy day. That reply must have given rise to a great deal of anxiety amongst Cypriots on two grounds. In the first place, it seemed to foreshadow a return to the bad old days of neglect after the war; and it also seemed to show that the Prime Minister—after all he was only there a few days, so why should he be blamed for it? — had not informed himself about the wages situation in the island. It may be true, and probably is true, that certain persons are making very considerable sums of money—hotel keepers and other people—owing to the presence of the troops, but judging from figures I have received that is net the case with the majority of the population. There has been a rise, it is true, of something like 100 per cent. in wages in the island, but in December prices, according to official figures, had risen by 154 per cent. Whilst I am happy to say that apparently in January that figure had fallen to 146 per cent., it is clear that if the cost of living has risen by 146 per cent. the real wages of the workers must have fallen if the increase in wages has only been 100 per cent.
I have outlined very briefly the grounds for the anxiety which caused me to put this Motion on the Paper to-day and it is not ray wish to detain your Lordships any longer. What I want, and what no doubt those of your Lordships who are interested desire, is to hear the statement of His Majesty's Government. I hope very much that it will be a comforting one. As I said at the beginning, it seems to me that if this island is treated with the care and consideration to which it is entitled because of the assistance given to our country—there are enormous numbers of Cypriots serving in the Armed Forces and in other ways aiding the war effort—then, as a result of the expenditure of a moderate amount of capital in the island, prosperity might be brought. I believe that Cypriots would feel that under the British flag
1030
they have opportunities and prospects, both political and economic, which they would never have under any other sovereignty. I beg to move.
VISCOUNT MERSEY: My Lords, Cyprus is so seldom alluded to in your Lordships' House that I hope I may be forgiven for approaching this subject from a totally different aspect: one of the privileges of being a Whip is that one does not speak on political subjects, a privilege I appreciate. Cyprus, as many of your Lordships know, is really one of the most interesting historical possessions of the Crown. Its civilization goes back something like three thousand years. It is in the centre of what is properly called the Near East. I have never understood why Algiers should be called the Near East as it is exactly due south of Dover. But Cyprus really is in the Near East and is in the centre of an area where the most ancient civilizations—Hittite, Assyrian, Egyptian, Phoenician and Greek—started their progress. It is not a particularly large place, about as large as Norfolk and Suffolk together, but it has a collection of historical monuments and records unequalled, I imagine, anywhere else in the world. Not to speak of prehistoric remains, which are underground, it has most remarkable Hellenic, Byzantine, Renaissance, Venetian and Turkish buildings, and has also a long historical connexion.
I believe Aphrodite chose it as her birthplace. Caesar and Antony were there. St. Paul started his evangelical campaign in Cyprus. Our King Richard I took it and established a very short-lived dominion in it. I have always believed that the Order of the Garter originated there because we are told in one of the contemporary chronicles that at the time of his wedding he dressed twenty-four of his knights in blue robes with garters round their legs. That may appeal to the noble Duke who is one of the most recent ornaments of that Order. We had a later connexion with the island through Thomas a Becket's family and a guild of English merchants who had an inn in Nicosia. After that the Lusignan dynasty built some of the most beautiful castles and cathedrals that now embellish the island. The Venetians took it, and then the Turks, in an historic siege, got it from them, until eventually Lord Beaconsfield secured it for us in 1878. So we have had it for a little

1031
more than sixty years. The principal places have names which are romantic enough to appeal to anyone. There is Famagusta where Othello led his tragic life; there is the marvellous Renaissance palace at St. Hilarion; there is the abbey at Bella Pais; and there is the capital Nicosia, full of crusaders' tombs, many of them with English names upon them. That has always seemed to me an additional reason why we should take a close interest in Cyprus.
There is no doubt that for a good portion of the time for which we have held the island we did very little for it in the direction of conserving its antiquities. About ten years ago there was a letter in The Times calling attention to the lack of interest that we had shown, and a few members of your Lordships' House, members of another place and others got together and formed a Committee. We raised a certain amount of money, not a great deal but enough to he of use, and we sent out a distinguished architect and archaeologist who went round the principal buildings, saw what had to be done, and started a work which I believe has been of enormous value to the island. I think that Sir George Hill, the late director of the British Museum, was perhaps the most active, and among your Lordships my noble friend Lord Leverhulme was extremely generous, as was also Captain Graham. In this way we succeeded in increasing the interest that was being taken in the island, and now both the ecclesiastical and the municipal authorities contribute help and funds.
As the result of our efforts, a great many of these monuments have been reconditioned—not restored—"conserved" is the correct word. They have not been added to but they have been put into order and safeguarded. Their interior decorations, their mosaics and general appointments and the buildings generally, are, in a number of instances, very remarkable. The fortifications at Famagusta are perhaps the most remarkable of their kind to be found in the world, and the walls of Nicosia are worthy of special interest. Then, too, there are many, one would almost say over-many, religious buildings. There are pagan temples, Mahomedan mosques, Christian churches and cathedrals, all of which constitute exceptional examples of what the island has to show. I believe that the
1032
work that has been done in that way by a cultural appeal—not only perhaps by a cultural appeal but one might almost say by a commercial appeal, because it has brought a great many more people to the island—has been of very great value. People go there on tours in peace-time, and I heard the other day that our diminished antiquity staff constantly give lectures which are very widely attended by the troops in the island.
Perhaps the greatest assistance to us—and this is a tribute which has seldom been paid—was that which was given by the Colonial Office. Sir Philip Cunliffe-Lister, now Viscount Swinton, and Mr. Ormsby-Gore, now Lord Harlech, took the closest personal interest in the whole of our efforts and Lord Harlech was an active member of our Committee. Their great positions and the assistance they gave us enabled the movement to go forward so that proper curators and directors were appointed, and the local governors, who perhaps were not very much interested in what they called "old stones," were fired to become active. The local population, moreover, was shown that there was good business in looking after their own possessions. I wish to mention this side of our connexion with Cyprus, in order to show that one can approach the loyalty and interest of the islanders by very simple and very natural means. I hope that your Lordships will think that this effort has been of use both to ourselves and to the island in general.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE): My Lords, I am afraid that the noble Lord opposite has had one or two disappointments in that it has been necessary to postpone this debate. But I do welcome the fact that he has been able to make what I think I may fairly say is a useful and beneficial speech calling attention to certain disquieting factors, a speech to which the Government cannot possibly object. It is useful that these matters should be raised in your Lordships' House, and I think the Government are indebted to the noble Lord for having raised them. In all political questions there are two pitfalls of which one should beware, and this, perhaps, applies particularly to Colonial political Questions. On the one side there is the pitfall

1033
of complacency, of accepting the view that all is for the best in the best of all possible worlds. This is a pitfall which particularly awaits a Government spokesman. On the other hand there is the pitfall of too readily believing that a very limited number of agitators, not perhaps very responsible persons, really represent the aspirations of a nation rightly striving to be free. That is particularly a pitfall which awaits spokesmen from the Opposition Benches. I shall try to avoid both these pitfalls. It ought also, I think, to be pointed out that one agitator—and still more one riot—very definitely makes news, whereas score of villagers and whole villages enjoying better conditions than they have ever known before do not make news, and no account of them gets into the newspapers.
The noble Lord referred to the visit of the Governor of Cyprus to this country. I ought, perhaps, to explain, in the first instance, that the Governor's visit did not arise from any crisis in the affairs of the Colony or its Administration. It is usual for Governors to visit this country from time to time in order to consult with the Secretary of State and his advisers, and in recent times the Governor of Kenya, the High Commissioner for Palestine, the Governor of Malta and the Governor of Jamaica have all come home for this purpose. But the present Governor of Cyprus was in Nigeria when he was appointed, and the war conditions made it impossible for him to visit this country, as he would have done under ordinary circumstances, on his way to Cyprus. It was therefore appropriate that he should come home for those normal consultations with my right honourable friend and with the Colonial Office, which are particularly valuable in time of war, and to discuss various economic, financial and other questions with which the Government of Cyprus will be faced in future.
The noble Lord referred to certain disquieting factors in the Cyprus situation. I think that I shall be able to show, in the course of what I am going to say, that the position has very greatly improved n the last few years; but for such disquieting factors as still exist it would be far more reasonable to blame Mr. Gladstone than to blame my right honourable friend. It is indeed the case that what Mr. Gladstone said in 1882 was pretty nearly all wrong. It was perhaps very
1034
easy to follow, almost blindly, democratic theories of government in those days, but it is a fact that Mr. Gladstone in 1882 endowed the island of Cyprus with democratic institutions on Western lines for which there was no kind of foundation or preparation, and then took singularly little interest in the island. My noble friend Lord Mersey—I shall refer to his speech later—referred in some measure to the history of the island, and his historical reference, which I shall not recapitulate, is of interest because it does bring out the fact that in the whole of the immensely long known history of Cyprus it never has had self-governing, or anything like self-governing, institutions. There was in fact no foundation on which self-governing institutions could be built.
We ourselves have taken a very long time to develop our self-governing institutions, and our history has broadened down from precedent to precedent. The origins of our self-governing institutions go back to the dawn of history; long before the Saxon Witenagemot there was some beginning of democratic institutions in this island. But there has been nothing like that in Cyprus at all. It has been in turn Egyptian, Persian and Roman; it was then part of the Byzantine Empire; it has been overrun on numerous occasions by the Arabs. It belonged for a time to our own Richard Coeur de Lion, and I do not suppose that that popular monarch either knew or cared very much about what we should call democratic institutions. It then belonged successively to the Knights Templar, the Lusignans and the Venetians, from whom it passed to the Turks, and from the Turks it was acquired by us on a rather unsatisfactory basis, which I think led to the lack of a feeling of permanence. It was not at all Turkey's, but it was not quite ours, That may have been responsible to some extent for the neglect which was shown,
The noble Lord also referred to the tribute, which is an aspect of Cypriot history about which no one can feel any great pride. There again, however, no blame can be attached to my right honourable friend, because the tribute was—tardily, perhaps—reduced thirty years ago and finally abolished in 1927. We might well blame Mr. Gladstone in this instance. In this case, as in the case of Chinese slavery, Liberal Governments

1035
have shown themselves better at detecting abuses than at reforming them. In 1907 the present Prime Minister was horrified to find that in the case of Cyprus alone in the whole Colonial Empire we did in fact exact a tribute. He wrote a burning minute on the subject, but the tribute continued to be exacted from Cyprus, on a somewhat reduced scale, for another twenty years.
LORD MOTTISTONE: My Lords, since the noble Duke has attacked Mr. Gladstone, and there seems nobody here to defend his memory, I should like to ask the noble Duke whether it is not a fact that his predecessor, Lord Hartington, was a member of Mr. Gladstone's Government at the time, and was therefore partly responsible for the treatment of Cyprus.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: My Lords, he fell out with him very soon after that. My noble friend opposite raised the question of the growth of self-government in Cyprus. I have referred to the fact that the Constitution of 1882, which never really worked very well, finally broke down completely. It broke down, I believe, for the reason that there was no solid foundation for or tradition of local government, or of the right kind of people to serve in local government, who must be there if a democratic Constitution is going to work. My right honourable friend is trying to rebuild democratic institutions in Cyprus. He has begun by instituting a system of municipal government with adult suffrage, by which the population of the larger towns will elect their own local municipal self-governing bodies. The noble Lord asked when that was going to take place. The local elections have already taken place, either last week or the week before, and democratic municipal government in the towns is already in existence. If that promises well, my right honourable friend proposes to extend the system to the rural districts, and on that foundation—the solid foundation of the beginnings of local self-government—it is his hope that he will be able to build permanent local self-governing institutions. He is not going to be unduly hasty about it, because we know the disastrous effects of the breakdown of institutions of this kind. A definite advance is being made, however, and I hope that my noble
1036
friend will consider that in the advance which has been made and which is contemplated we are at least acting in the spirit which he desires to see.
The noble Lord then went on to deal with the question of civil liberties. It is, I think, very distasteful to all of us, and it is certainly distasteful to my right honourable friend and to his advisers in the Colonial Office, to have anything resembling a suppression of civil liberties. There again it is our object to restore civil liberties to Cyprus as and when it becomes possible; but it must be remembered that the legislation in Cyprus emerged from a time of growing difficulty, culminating in severe riots in the course of which Government House was burned. You have to consider that fact, and you have also to consider the fact that Cyprus is still in the front line, although I am thankful to say that, owing to the improvement in the war situation and the striking victories both in Russia and in North Africa, the position is easier. Cyprus is still in the front line, however, and the security of the country and of the vastly important interests and communications covered by the island must be our first consideration. Actually the laws obtaining in Cyprus, although they have a different origin, are not very unlike those obtaining here under war conditions now. None of us like them or want to keep them for longer than is necessary, but I believe that at present they are necessary. While I can promise my noble friend that the retention of these somewhat unusual powers will be very carefully considered as soon as the war is over, I believe that the present moment is not one when they can properly be withdrawn.
The noble Lord then referred to the Press laws. These are of a very drastic nature, but again I believe that the present moment, when the enemy is still more or less at the gate, is not one when these laws could prudently be relaxed. He also referred to the question of taxation. I think that the economic record of the island is rather a proud one. Before the war, its Budget roughly balanced; income and expenditure stood at about £1,000,000. Since the war, largely owing to the necessity of keeping down the cost of living by subsidizing certain essentials, and because of expenditure for war purposes, the Budget has tended to rise, and

1037
Cyprus is to-day raising about £1,400,000 a year. The increase in taxation has been very carefully devised so as to fall on the shoulders of those most capable of bearing it. There is a relatively heavy Income Tax, Death Duties have been imposed, and the money is raised largely from the taxation of luxuries such as tobacco and spirits, in so far as it is not derived from Income and Property Taxes. It has been very carefully devised to spare the lowest remunerated classes of the community and to affect only those who can afford an increased burden.
I shall come in a moment to the question of wages and so forth, but one of the causes of the rather alarming rise in the cost of living in Cyprus has undoubtedly been the inflationary tendency caused by the presence of very considerable numbers of British troops there, who have no possible outlet for spending their pay except on the rather limited range of commodities now produced in the island. That makes the question of wages a very difficult one. In spite of the very considerable efforts that the Government of Cyprus have made m increase their own resources, Cyprus is on a grant-in-aid basis and the grants in aid have amounted to a tangible sum. I think they will this year exceed £450,000. That tribute, to which the noble Lord referred, is in process of being repaid, and repaid very fast indeed, and in ways which will be very beneficial to the people.
The Government are trying to tackle the question of the rise in cost of living in three ways: first of all, by heavy taxation on the higher scales of income, which is designed to resist the inflationary tendency; secondly, by substantial increases in the rates of waves, especially where these are low; and, thirdly, by direct subsidy of essentials. Bread is subsidized to a very considerable extent, and other products which are essentials—kerosene, charcoal and other commodities of that kind—are also being subsidized. The position is still not satisfactory. The cost of living had gone up to 150 per cent. over the pre-war figure and then it showed a tendency, under the energetic measures taken by the Government, to drop, and my last information is that, unhappily, it has gone up again.
But on that question of the cost-of-living figures I have very recently received information showing that no less than 66
1038
points out of the rise of 150 per cent. are due to an increase in the cost of clothing. It is very undesirable, of course, that any one should go short of clothing, but I think my noble friend will agree that that is a somewhat less serious thing than a shortage of food, which would permanently affect the well being and physique of children. Clothing can be made to last, and sometimes at any rate a minimum of clothing is necessary. I should very much like to be in a position to say that the Government had tackled this question of clothing successfully, but I cannot say that in so many words. They are tackling it and as vigorously as they can. They are endeavouring to secure here various textiles required for providing the islanders with clothing, and in that respect, I think, the outlook is hopeful. They are also trying to secure a certain quantity of machinery which will enable the island to manufacture its own products to a greater extent than in the past. There, perhaps, the prospect is less hopeful. I can assure the noble Lord arid the House that this question of clothing, which accounts for a large proportion of the increase in the cost of living, is being tackled. Of course this question of the cost of living is a serious one. When your Lordships subtract the items of clothing and come down to food, the rise in the cost of living is less than the average rise in the lowest grade wages, which have risen by about 100 per cent. So that the position is not so bad as it might seem, and perhaps not quite so had as the noble Lord has been led to believe. But it is serious, and we are very anxious indeed to deal with it.
There is another factor which I think ought not to be forgotten. That is that Cyprus, which is very largely a peasant country, has practically speaking no purely urban proletariat at all. There is work in the towns, but that is very largely done by people from the villages, who enter the towns for a limited time only, and return to the land in order to reap crops, which either they own themselves or in which they have some part of a family interest. It is true, therefore, to say that, although on the one hand the wage-earner is suffering owing to the rise in cost of living, the same wage-earner is to a very large extent indeed a peasant proprietor also, who is benefiting by getting better prices for his products than he has ever had before. I come now to one

1039
of the really favourable facts in the situation, which is that present indebtedness which, as in the case of so many peasant communities, was one of the most serious factors in Cyprus, is being very rapidly reduced.
LORD FARINGDON: The noble Duke has not answered my question as to whether the commodities listed in the Governor's Budget speech as needing control have, in fact, been controlled. They are all feeding stuffs, I think, except matches.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: There was a list very carefully made out to cover basic necessities.
LORD FARINGDON: Are they being controlled?
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: Yes, they are being controlled. I ought to have said when dealing with clothing that if and when the Government succeeded in getting supplies of clothing, that also will be strictly controlled. But, dealing with this question of indebtedness, active measures were taken by the Government, to scale down the total of indebtedness—for, again, as in the case of very many peasant communities, many of the islanders are in debt to various moneylenders. This indebtedness had reached proportions altogether out of their capacity to pay. The first step was to scale down these debts to a figure bearing some relation to reality, a figure within the people's capacity to pay. Machinery was set up which would enable the peasants to pay off their debts, and up to the end of last September some 4,500 applications, representing a total indebtedness of nearly £450,000, had been dealt with in that way. It is a very satisfactory feature that many farmers are now taking advantage of present conditions to pay off their whole debt in one year. The scheme provided for the gradual extinction of these debts over fifteen years, but a very large amount has been paid off in the course of one year. As I say, in this last year the total burden of peasant indebtedness has been reduced to the extent of £450,000, or rather more, which is believed to represent a very substantial proportion of the total peasant indebtedness in the island. I think my noble friend would agree that that is a really satisfactary feature in the situation.
LORD FARINGDON: Can the noble Duke say whether that figure includes indebtedness to the Agricultural Bank and the Co-operative Bank? I rather think they were left out by the scheme.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: Yes, I think those represented already, as it were, controlled indebtedness; it was not swollen capital. But I should have to have notice of that question. The noble Lord knows Cyprus, and will be familiar with the fact that one of its most serious difficulties is the periodic shortage of rainfall. We are making continuous and sustained efforts to add to the cultivable area of the island by means of irrigation schemes. Very substantial sums have been found from the Colonial Development Fund both for irrigation and for the re-afforestation of forest areas. The noble Lord will be aware that one difficulty is that large areas of the island have been recklessly deforested, at any rate close to the centres of population. For these schemes of irrigation and for other schemes an amount of over £500,000 has been allocated, and further items, estimated to cost another £130,000, are now under consideration. Four Lordships will therefore agree that the Government have not been inactive in this matter. The island is not a very large one, and in the course of last year alone an additional 12,000 acres were brought under cultivation by means of irrigation schemes.
The noble Lord asked about trade union legislation and similar legislation, and referred to the strike at Nicosia. The present position about trade union legislation is that there are, according to the available figures, 78 trade unions in Cyprus. An officer from the Industrial Relations Department of the Ministry of Labour and National Service visited Cyprus in 1940 to advise the Government on the measures which might be taken to encourage the growth of the trade union movement. As a result of his visit a Labour Department has been established under a Commissioner with long experience of Cyprus and its people, and comprehensive legislation, based on the legislation in force in this country, was passed in 1941 providing for the establishment of trade unions, the protection of their legitimate activities, and the settlement of trade disputes. It may be said that the movement has made a promising start. Certainly the Cyprus Government

1041
are anxious to help its development in every way possible, and they make a point of inviting the co-operation of the unions in the consideration of problems affecting labour and industry.
Your Lordships might be interested to know, although it is not of great importance—but it illustrates the ramifications of the question—that one of Cyprus's not very many industries is the manufacture of false teeth. It is an industry, I understand, worked by European refugees. They obtain their raw material from Canada, and manufacture false teeth for export to all parts of the world. The industry is suffering at the present time from a curious factor. In Siam, I am told, it is unfashionable to have white teeth, and any Siamese who can afford it instantly has his white teeth extracted and replaces them with artificial black teeth which he obtains from Cyprus. That trade has gone for the time being, but I am making it my business to see that it returns to Cyprus and is not retained by the Japanese after the war.
As to the minimum wage, the Governor has powers to impose minimum wage legislation. There are two Ordinances, the Minimum Wage Ordinance and the Workmen's Compensation Ordinance. The Minimum Wage Ordinance does not throw on the Government the duty of fixing minimum wages in every industry or for every occupation in the Colony. It is applicable only to cases where the Governor is satisfied that the wages being paid are unreasonably low. But, as I have tried to indicate, the trade unions themselves have been active in regard to wages. The minimum wage law has been applied on at least one occasion during 1942 with satisfactory results. The noble Lord asked when the workmen's compensation law would be passed. The answer is that it has already been passed, and it will be brought into operation as soon as facilities for insurance are available. I understand that experts in insurance in this country have been approached and are now being consulted, and in fact are proceeding with the preparation of a tariff. I can therefore answer the noble Lord's question by saving that the workmen's compensation law has been passed and is about to be brought into operation.
Then the noble Lord referred to the question of strikes. There was a regrettable strike lasting for some considerable
1042
time at Nicosia quite recently. The noble Lord referred to that as a strike against conditions in general rather than as a strike merely for wages. My information differs somewhat from that in the possession of the noble Lord. There was a strike last December, and it has been represented that that was called as a protest against the failure of the Government to take measures to control the cost of living and to deal with various other matters. The facts are that, following an adjustment in wages at the beginning of October, which involved an increase of one-third in the basic rates—from 3s. to 4s. a day—coupled with some reduction for overtime, the Nicosia trade unions wrote to the Government demanding, among other things, a minimum daily wage of 5s, and intimating that a reply was expected by December 2. This date was subsequently extended to December 9. The Governor considered the matter very carefully with his advisers, and the conclusion he reached was that, both on the particular merits of the case and on the general ground that further increases in wages were only likely to augment the cost of living and lead to dangerous inflationary conditions, the unions' demands could not be granted.
At the same time he appointed a representative committee consisting of two officials and seven non-officials, including two leading trade unionists and two farmers, to advise on possible measures for reducing and stabilizing the cost of living. Nevertheless, a strike was called on December 11, and it continued until December 21. That short history of this strike indicates that it was a strike for increased wages rather than a strike against the Government inaction. As I have already said, measures are being taken to control the cost of living. The Governor has powers to do so. He is subsidizing bread, which is the most important food, and charcoal, kerosene, and soap. We have no precise information as to what other measures of control he has taken, but he has very wide powers to control the cost of essentials, and is using those powers as, and when, he thinks proper.
I think I have gone a long way to answer the questions the noble Lord raised. My noble friend Lord Mersey raised the question of the preservation of the ancient monuments of Cyprus. I should like to say, on behalf of the Government of Cyprus and of my right honourable friend and his advisers, that

1043
we very greatly appreciate the work the noble Viscount and his Committee have done. Inevitably during war-time work of that kind has in many cases to be suspended, but I can assure the noble Lord that no Government of Cyprus in the future is going to neglect these monuments, and we shall continue to look forward to the valuable collaboration of the noble Viscount and his Committee.
The picture I have to draw in reply to the noble Lord's various questions is a composite picture. The political situation for various reasons—and here I am not sure that I disagree with the noble Lord about this—is still not altogether what we would like it to be, but I would point out that Cyprus is a recent British possession. It only came into full possession of the Crown in 1914, and for some years after that almost inevitably, with the war on and so forth, it was neglected. The tribute undoubtedly rankled, and it is only quite recently that we have begun to put affairs in Cyprus in order. I think I have said enough this afternoon to indicate to the House that vigorous measures are being taken to bring about economic amelioration. We have begun to build, on what we believe to be a sound foundation, democratic institutions, and we are laying the foundations of self-government. I would remind your Lordships once more that it took us a long time to attain to full democracy in this country. Some people still maintain—I was reading an article on this in a newspaper the other day—that we in this country have not yet attained to full democracy. They maintain that as long as your Lordships' House continues to exist, and so long as it is easier for a Cecil or a Churchill—
LORD MOTTISTONE: Or a Cavendish—
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE:—or a Stanley to get adopted by an English constituency than for a Gollancz or a Laski, we have not yet attained to full democracy. We need not argue about that, but it must be agreed that it has taken us a very long time, many centuries indeed, to attain to that measure of democracy which we have reached. It is really not reasonable to suppose that this people in Cyprus, with no tradition behind them of self-governing institutions, can attain to it immediately. But I think my right honourable friend is working on sound
1044
lines in building from the bottom a broad foundation, as he is doing. When I leave the political aspect I believe we come to more favourable ground. We can point to a record of solid achievement in afforestation, in irrigation, and, perhaps most important of all, in the improvement of the economic position of the peasant. That figure of £450,000 of indebtedness which I gave is something really substantial, and we have undoubtedly, by keeping a large garrison there, brought about the circulation of a good deal of money, which does mean more money to spend when the war is over. I think it is true to say of Cyprus that my right honourable friend is tackling the particular problems which it represents with vigour and resolution, and that we have every reason to hope these measures will bear fruit, so that we shall in the future have more reason to be proud of our record in Cyprus than we have had in the past.
LORD FARINGDON: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Duke most enthusiastically for his long and most illuminating account of the situation in Cyprus. I think all your Lordships will have found it as interesting, even though you do not know the island as I do, as I myself found it. On the whole it is extremely encouraging. I would like, if I may, to congratulate the Colonial Office particularly on the introduction of direct taxation in Cyprus. I hope this may be a happy augury for other Colonies, and I would recommend consideration of this example to the Legislature of the Bahamas. I do not take quite such a gloomy view of the Gladstonian Constitution as the noble Duke does. The noble Duke seemed to forget that that Constitution was in fact worked by the Cypriots for a matter of fifty years, which is not such a very bad record. In point of fact the noble Duke seemed to me to draw a veil over the reason for its collapse. Its principal defect was due, I think, to the fact that the Turks and the Greeks had separate electorates when they united in 1931 to oppose an increase of indirect taxation, which would have raised the cost of living. The tax in question was passed by Order in Council of the Governor and the result was the riots which eventually led to suppression of the Constitution. Some of us might feel that the elected representatives were on this occasion not perhaps entirely in the wrong. I am not going to go into details about all these things.

1045
I would like incidentally to say how glad I was to have the noble Duke's figures for the decrease in agricultural indebtedness. Of course it is also to be remembered that the imposition of the tribute was to some extent responsible for that indebtedness, for the greater part of the taxation to produce it fell upon the farming community. It was, therefore, merely right that we should do our best to relieve theta of this appalling burden. I was glad to hear from the noble Duke of the progress in labour legislation, and I hope that the Workmen's Compensation Act will be brought into operation at I he earliest possible moment. I was not quite happy about his account of the control imposed by the Governor on various matters. He only mentioned three of them. I have a list given by the Governor himself in his Budget Speech last November, now a good many months ago, and the noble Duke was apparently unable to tell me which of these, if not all of them, had in fact been controlled. I hope this really essential step for the control of the cost of living is being treated with the seriousness and with the firmness that it requires. Again I should like to thank His Majesty's Government for their very full statement and with the leave of the House I will withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

GIFTS AND CURRENCY REGULATIONS.
LORD DAVIES: My Lords, I beg to ask the first question which I have on the Paper.
[The question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government, whether they will amend the Finance Regulations, in the spirit of the Lease-Lend Agreement, in such a way as to permit the people of this country to send to friends in the United States pieces of stone from the bomb-damaged buildings of the Palace of Westminster without exacting payment in dollar currency.]
LORD SNELL: My Lords, there is a general prohibition on the sending of gifts from this country to places outside the sterling area, and I am advised that requests for special concessions, enabling gifts of various kinds to be sent have had
1046
to be consistently refused, since the administration of concessions in such a way as to prevent abuse would necessarily involve additional work and a corresponding call upon man-power. His Majesty's Government do not consider that the circumstances of the present case are so exceptional as to justify any relaxation of the regulations.

SWEDISH NEUTRALITY.
LORD DAVIES: My Lords, I beg to ask my second question.
[The question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government, what steps have been taken to protest against the violation of the neutrality of Sweden by the constant passage of German troops through that country; whether their attention has been drawn to recent statements in the Swedish Parliament relating to the landing in Sweden of a German military aircraft containing a number of troops equipped with unmounted machine guns; whether they can state whether the men and equipment concerned will be detained by the Swedish authorities for the duration of the war; and what action they propose to take.]
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (VISCOUNT CRANBORNE): My Lords, the Swedish authorities have assured His Majesty's Government that the passage of German troops through Sweden is confined to troops going on, and returning from leave from North Norway, under an agreement made by the Swedish Government with the Germans in the summer of 1940. His Majesty's Government at once, as long ago as July 9, 1940, informed the Swedish Government that they regarded the conclusion of this agreement as a breach of Sweden's obligations as a neutral, and those representations have been renewed on various subsequent occasions. His Majesty's Government are aware of the statements made in the Swedish Parliament to which the noble Lord refers. It appears that the men in the aircraft referred to were allowed to proceed to their destination, but the aircraft itself and the machine guns have been detained in Sweden. His Majesty's Government take a serious view of this incident and are instructing their representative in Stockholm to make their views known to the Swedish Government.

FORESTRY COMMISSION.
LORD DAVIES: My Lords, I beg to ask my next question.
[The question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government, what are the total acreages controlled by the Forestry Commission in England, Scotland and Wales respectively; how many persons are employed by the Commission in each of those three areas; and whether the personnel of the Commission includes representatives of England, Scotland and Wales.].
LORD SNELL: My Lords, I have been asked to reply on behalf of the Forestry Commission. I have sent the figures for which the noble Lord asks privately to him, as they are hardly suitable for an oral Parliamentary reply, but I am arranging for them to be circulated in the Official Report. The personnel of the Commission includes representatives of England and Scotland and, until the recent resignation of Mr. D. R. Grenfell, also a representative of Wales. Upon Mr. Grenfell's resignation, Mr. M. P. Price, Member of Parliament for the Forest of Dean, was asked by the Commission to take a special interest in the Welsh aspects of the work.
[The figures are as follows:
The acreages controlled by the Forestry Commission are:

Acres.

England

459,000

Scotland

603,000

Wales and Monmouth

170,000

Total

1,232,000

Of these the afforestable areas are:

Acres.

England

330,000

Scotland

300,000

Wales and Monmouth

129,000

Total

759,000

The numbers of persons employed (technical, clerical and forest workers) as at date of latest return are:

England

2,740

Scotland

1,846

Wales and Monmouth

961

Total

5.547]

LORD DAVIES: My Lords, arising out of that reply, may I be allowed to thank my noble friend for the figures which he has given me? From those figures I observe that in Wales there are 170,000
1048
acres under the control of the Forestry Commission and 961 persons are employed by the Commission. I would like to ask the noble Lord whether he does not consider that in those circumstances Wales should have a direct representative on the Commission.
LORD SNELL: My Lords, I will see that the noble Lord's views are conveyed to the Forestry Commission.

RINGING OF CHURCH BELLS.
THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF YORK THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF YORK moved to resolve, That the ban on the ringing of church bells should be now lifted or modified. The most reverend Prelate said: My Lords, in moving this Resolution I want to make it quite clear at the very outset that I am not moving it on the ground that all danger, either of invasion from the sea or from the air, has passed away. When a wild animal is wounded it is then most dangerous, and of course it is quite possible that in the months to come every kind of attack will be made upon this island. My reasons for moving this Resolution are different. I am moving it because I wish to submit to your Lordships that in a large number of cases the ringing of the church bells would give no kind of useful warning, that in other cases where the bells might be useful in that way they could be rung without interfering with the ordinary ringing of the bells, and that therefore it is both unreasonable and unnecessary to silence bells which for centuries have been so closely associated both with the religion and life of the country.
I would remind your Lordships that when this edict about ringing the bells came into force it was at a time of great strain. We had evacuated from Dunkirk where we had lost an enormous amount of equipment. It was possible that at any moment the French might cease fighting. I think an historian when he looks back on that period will pick out the utterance of the Prime Minister that we should go on fighting, if need be alone, and that we should fight on our shores and in our lanes, as one of the most striking and decisive utterances in the whole of our island story. The historian, looking back on that period, will, I think, also be struck at the calmness, the complete lack of all panic, with which every village and every hamlet prepared to

1049
meet the possible invader. But of course during that time many decisions were made which afterwards were found to be unnecessary. I am not for one moment criticizing those who at that time made the decision that the bells should not be rung and should be reserved for giving notice of an invader from the air. Since then many things have happened. Many regulations which were laid down at the beginning of the war or at that time have been either removed or modified. It is no longer necessary for us to carry our gasmasks at all times and in all places. Even sign posts are beginning, it is true somewhat shyly and coyly, to point timid fingers to towns which no one could mistake. Those of your Lordships who have exceptionally good sight may occasionally from the train able to discern the name of some station, and blocks which at the time were erected on the assumption that the enemy would naturally proceed along the roads and would not trample on the growing crops have been removed to more suitable places. But amidst these very varied changes and modifications one ban remains unchanged.
For nearly three years 12,000 parishes have had their bells silenced, in case in one of these parishes there might come from the air a certain number of Germans. There have been three exceptions. On one occasion certain bells were rung by mistake; the bells were rung to celebrate the victory in Egypt; and they were rung again last Christmas. But with these exceptions, for nearly three years no bells have been rung to summon the people to worship, no bells have been pealed at weddings, no bells have been tolled for the dead, no bell has been rung at the induction of a new incumbent, no bells have been rung from college chapels. All over the country there has come a silence to our bells. There are, of course, some people who hate bells and they will regard the silence of the bells as one of the only alleviating compensations of the war. But the great majority of people deplore the silence of the bells. We who are members of the Church of England regret most deeply that our bells a re not allowed to be used in the tradition al way to summon people to worship. It is, however, not only members of the Church of England. There are large numbers of people who are not greatly interested in Church matters who miss the bells, and that is specially so in the country districts. Psychologically I
1050
am quite certain this silence of the bells has a very bad effect on the people.
Of course if the noble Lord who is to reply for the Government tells us this is a matter of national security, and also gives us the reasons why it is necessary for national security that the bells should be silent, I have nothing more to say. We are ready for our bells to be silenced if silence is really going to help the national cause; but I hope the noble Lord will give us some reasons why and how this ringing of the bells if the enemy should come from the air is to help. From the Regulations which have been published I understand that the bells are only to be rung if some twenty of the enemy land. Then the bells are only to be rung in the parish in which they have actually landed. I ask your Lordships to consider this in the light of cold reason. Out of the 12,000 or 13,000 parishes, about 4,000 are town parishes. How is this going to help in the towns? In a town it is not always easy to know the ecclesiastical boundaries where there are a number of different parishes. When I went to South London I soon found that the people of the parish rarely knew where their parish church was, and at the risk possibly of some misunderstanding I had for a time always to ask for the nearest public-house. It is difficult to know which church belongs to which parish.
Suppose in London or in any large centre of population some Germans came down from the air. What would happen? First of all the air raid warden—I am not quite certain who is the responsible person—or the policeman would have to be certain of the exact number. Secondly, he would have to consult a map of the parish, and then he would have to hurry to the parish church and risk his life, if he is not a bellringer, by ringing the bells. Even suppose the bells were rung, what help would that give? Suppose Germans had descended on the roof of South Africa House, what help would it be to us at Westminster or Lambeth if the bells of the parish church were rung? Or if the Germans landed in the back gardens of some street in the East End of London, what help would it give if the bells of St. Matthew's were rung? It may, perhaps, be retorted that I am giving a caricature of all this; that it was never intended that these bells should be rung in towns as a warning but should only be rung in the country. Very well then,

1051
why ban the ringing of the bells of the town churches? Let the bells of those churches which are in the towns be rung.
Now I turn to the country districts. Here, of course, the conditions are different. Most country people know the boundaries of their parishes. They know the brook, or the field, or the wood which separates them from the neighbouring parish. Often they look upon those living in a neighbouring parish as foreigners, and, possibly, as a rather inferior class of people. But they do know their own parish boundaries. There is no difficulty over that. But in many cases these country churches have bells which are by no means strong and which cannot be heard at any considerable distance. Many of these parishes cover very large areas; often there are valleys and hills in them, and sometimes, of course, the wind may be in the wrong direction. The result will be that if these bells are meant to put people on the alert—and no one seems to be quite clear why the bells should be rung, and what the response to them should be—that result would not always be achieved. In many of these parishes a number of people would go on working away in the fields in complete confidence without hearing the slightest sound from the bells which are supposed to give them warning of danger.
I admit that there is a large number of churches to which this objection does not apply. There are numerous parishes where the churches have bells which can easily be heard over a considerable distance. But surely those bells can be rung in a different way when a warning is to be given. In the Middle Ages church bells were often rung to give warning of the approach of an invader, and, down to much later times, to give warning of fire in the town or village in which the church was situated. The bells can be clashed or clanged in a quite unmistakable way. No one in the country could possibly confuse the ringing of the bells for an alarm with the ordinary ringing for Divine Service if this was done. I do not know if the noble Lord who is to reply on behalf of the Government is himself a bell-ringer. But if he has any doubt about this point, and he is not a bell-ringer himself, I venture to say that if he tried to ring the bell of the nearest parish church the noise that the bell would make would
1052
strike consternation into the hearts of all who heard it, and no one would mistake the result of his efforts for ordinary bell-ringing.
What do I ask the noble Lord who is going to reply on behalf of the Government? I ask him, in the first place, if possible, to tell us that they are going to lift the ban entirely from all these bells. The ban, I would point out, could be put on again very promptly; a few hours' notice given by means of the wireless would be all that would be necessary. At any rate, I suggest that the ban might be lifted for a time. If it is not possible for the noble Lord to tell us that, then I would ask the War Office, or whoever it is who is responsible, to lift the ban so far as it affects the town churches and to allow the bells in the country to be rung on Sundays or on the occasions of great festivals. At the same time that this permission was given, there could go out an order saying that the bells were not to be clashed or clanged except when required for warning purposes. If the very worst comes to the worst—I do not want to put this House to the trouble of a Division—and if the noble Lord cannot give me those assurances, I hope he will give an assurance that in the light of these facts, and in the light of what I have no doubt other members of your Lordships' House will say in this debate, the whole matter will be most carefully reconsidered.
I have to admit that if permission is given to ring the bells at once, in many instances it will be impossible for the bells to be rung immediately. The men who used to ring them are now, in many cases, serving their country in the Forces. Nevertheless, I am quite certain that, somehow or other, most of the church bells would be rung on Sundays. People would be found who can ring bells, and there are many of the soldiers stationed in our villages, who would be very glad to ring the bells there just as they were accustomed to ring them in their own home districts. I hope the noble Lord will give us an answer which will show that very soon it will be impossible for the enemy to say that he has, at any rate, silenced our bells. I hope the noble Lord will give us an answer which will mean that the bells will once again be able to ring forth their message of faith and hope through the length and breadth of the country. I beg to move.
Moved to resolve, That the ban on the ringing of church bells should be now lifted or modified.—(The Lord Arch bishop of York.)
LORD MOTTISTONE: My Lords, the most reverend Prelate asked me to support this Motion, knowing my personal interest in the matter. I have repeatedly urged that these bells should be rung again, and I submit that the most reverend Prelate has made out an unanswerable case. In regard to one thing which he has said, I believe that I can comfort him and at the same time challenge the noble Lord who is to reply on behalf of the Government. I am not sure but I believe twat the noble Lord who represents the War Office in this House is going to reply.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (LORD CROFT): Yes, that is so.
LORD MOTTISTONE: I have something to say which I think will throw a light on this matter. The most reverend Prelate said that, of course, if it could be shown that there was some real military reason which made it dangerous to remove the ban on the ringing of the bells he had nothing more to say, but otherwise—because he, like all the rest of us, wants them to ring again seeing that the ringing of them adds to the joy and happiness of our lives—he would press his Motion. Since I last addressed your Lordships on the subject, I have made certain inquiries of intelligent soldiers occupying high positions, and I say definitely—and in doing so I challenge contradiction—that to rely seriously on church bells as a means of giving warning would not only be not an advantage but would he a positive danger, as matters stand. If the most reverend Prelate's Motion he accepted the result will be to add to the security of this country instead of diminishing it.
I think I can make good my case, In the course of conversation with an intelligent soldier I said to him: "We are all puzzled about this question of the ringing of church bells." He replied: "Oh well, the Prime Minister likes to be able to tell you to ring the church bells to celebrate a victory." I said: "Yes, that's all very good no doubt lout that is not going on." To this he replied: "Of course, as a military expedient it is; frankly ridiculous. For be it observed." said the soldier,
1054
"that if you want a warning to warn you of the presence of the enemy, certain things are essential. The first is that you must know whence that warning emanated; secondly, you must know that the means of giving the warning are in good order, In the case of church bells, neither of these conditions is fulfilled. If I am to be asked to regard this as a serious matter, then I must ask that all the 12,000 churches shall be properly guarded by the military, in order to ensure at all moments that the bells are not rung by Fifth Columnists or reckless people. Secondly, I must be given authority to put those 12,000 belfries in order." I said: "Do you understand that in many cases the bells will not ring?" He replied: "Yes, I am advised that in a great number of cases either the ropes would break, or the hells would fall through the roof on to the heads of the people below."
I do not know what action the noble Viscount, the Leader of the House, is going to take in this matter, but I think I am entitled to make a challenge to him as Leader of the House. If what I have said is true—if no sound military opinion can be found to say that we ought to rely upon church bells as a warning—I think that we ought to be told. If it is alleged that there is some sound military opinion which says that we should rely upon church bells as a warning, then let us be told the name and rank of the military officer who says: "We desire to rely on church bells as a warning." I know that I am placing the noble Viscount in a difficult position, because I am perfectly aware that there is no such military officer in existence. Nobody who considers the matter can possibly regard this as a sensible method of giving warning of the enemy's approach, unless the steps which were described to me are taken to ensure that it shall be efficient. Imagine the enemy arriving, and it being said that the church bells must be rung. You will first have to ask whether the Germans have fulfilled the necessary conditions, because I am told that there are three or four different conditions which must be fulfilled before the bells are rung. Finally, when the military Commander gives the order for the bells to be rung, imagine the fantastic moment when the man runs to the belfry, pulls at the rope, and down comes the bell and cracks his head. Are we going on playing this childish opera bouffe, and thus robbing ourselves of a

1055
certain measure of pleasure and satisfaction?
My noble friend Lord Samuel, who I understand takes the same view as I do on this matter, reminds me that all over the world at different times the tocsin has been rung in order to warn people of intending revolution or of revolution itself. At this moment, throughout Switzerland, where the danger of fire is very great, it is the bells which give the warning by clashing. But if anybody in Switzerland were to suggest that the ringing of church bells in the normal way should be stopped, he would be voted a fool, because it is only by the constant ringing of them at the settled times of divine worship that it is possible to make sure that they are in working order. For all these reasons, I beg the Government to make the position quite clear. I challenge them to produce the authority of a named distinguished soldier who thinks that this is a good plan, and I cordially support the Motion of the most reverend Prelate.
LORD QUICKSWOOD: My Lords, I should like to be allowed to say one word in support of the most reverend Prelate, but I shall not detain your Lordships for more than a few minutes. It certainly seems to me that people have overlooked what has been referred to by the noble Lord who has just spoken and by the most reverend Prelate, that there is a great history behind the use of bells for purposes of alarm in cases of public danger or public excitement. In France, for example, it was the bells of St. Germain Auxerre which started the Massacre of St. Bartholomew, and we do not hear that there was any confusion. We do not hear that devout ladies arrived at the church expecting an early Mass, and accosted the verger and were informed "No, ma'am, there's no early Mass, it's the Duke of Guise's people, I think, who are ringing the bells; some trouble with the Huguenots, I fancy," and so the poor ladies had to go home unconsoled by devotion. We hear of nothing of that kind. No confusion arose; the massacre went forward with its usual businesslike efficiency, quite untroubled by any misapprehension as to the ringing of the bells. In the French Revolution, the tocsin was used repeatedly for purposes of alarm. Nobody made any mistake; everybody
1056
understood the ringing of the bells, as they were intended to understand it.
Indeed, bells are very expressive things. It is very easy to express human purpose and emotion by bells. Most of us do not now use the old-fashioned bell which used to be rung to summon domestic help, but those who have used it know how easy it was to distinguish between the rebuke for neglect or delay and the mere admonition regarding some detail of domestic routine. These things are quite easily expressed with bells, and I do not think that there would be the smallest difficulty in ringing a bell in such a way as to bring everybody into the streets—and that is all that a bell could be used for. I entirely agree with the noble Lord who has just spoken, and with the most reverend Prelate, that you cannot use a bell for military purposes; you can use it only to bring people into the street, and you can easily express your feelings of alarm and anxiety by ringing the bell in a tumultuous manner. Indeed the ingenious poem of Edgar Allan Poe is there to show that the different expressions of bells can even be represented by metre and verse, so that they must be perfectly distinguishable the one from the other.
I think, therefore, that this regulation might well be modified without the smallest danger of depriving the resources of defence of whatever benefit they now derive from the silence of the bells, and I strongly agree with the most reverend Prelate that to multiply regulations which are not necessary is unwholesome from the point of view of public morale. Your Lordships will remember the lady in the Ingoldsby Legends who did not mind death but could not stand pinching. I think that that is very typical of human nature. It is not the great danger, it is not the fear of something very terrible, that demoralizes people; it is the constant vexation of petty restrictions. I hope, therefore, that the Government will, in the public interest, whenever it is possible to remove a regulation which causes annoyance, hasten to do so. I am sure that there is not a parish in the country which would not echo the desire of the most reverend Prelate and respond most cheerfully and most intelligently to a permission to use the bells for their proper purpose as a summons to devotion.
LORD GEDDES: My Lords, you may be interested to hear the origin of the order

1057
about the ringing of the bells. It was at Tunbridge Wells. Lord Ironside, who was then Chief of the Imperial General Staff, was in my room, and there were also present General Thorne and, I think I am right in saying, my noble friend Lord Knollys. We had just got the first detachments of the Local Defence Volunteers formed, and the only part of the Local Defence Volunteers who had arms at that time were the Kentish and some of the Sussex Companies. The whole thing was very nebulous, and it was thought that at any moment we might see parachutists dropping down from heaven. I think it was the Chief of the Imperial General Staff who said: "How are you going to get these Local Defence Volunteers together if parachutists suddenly appear?" and somebody in the room—not I, but I could not be sure which of the others—said, "Why, we will ring the church bells, until we cart think of something better." That was early in May, 1940, and the War Office have been thinking of something better ever since. That signal at that time was supposed to be used only in the Counties of Kent and Sussex and in the rural areas, but somehow or other the order became more or less sacrosanct, and spread all over the country. It was trimmed and pruned, and sprouted new legs and arms, and it became one of the essential pillars of the defence of the country. It is a complete mystery to me why that should be se, but I am assured by War Office representatives that it is.
Like my noble friend Lord Mottistone, I have a great interest in this regulation, as I was present at its birth. I have asked one high soldier after another what he thinks of it. I would hesitate in your Lordships' House to quote most of the replies, but none of them was complimentary. I found when I was in the North-Western portion of England that over a large part of that region at any rate any idea of ringing the church bells in any circumstances connected with the arrival of any Germans had been abandoned, because it was obviously an impossible way of communicating information to anybody who was wanted. There was a very elaborate system of calling out the members of the Home Guard who would be required. I should like very strongly support the Motion moved by the most reverend Prelate. I am quite certain that if an investigation of the facts were made you would find that nobody really
1058
knows what this regulation is supposed to do; that it is merely kept in force because it is in force, and nobody will take the responsibility of agreeing to take it off.
LORD CROFT: My Lords, very careful consideration, as most of your Lordships know, has been given to the subject raised by the most reverend Prelate. The matter has in fact been raised very frequently, and actually several times this year, in another place. Consequently I can assure your Lordships that the whole question has been reviewed very often under the changing circumstances of the war. Every form of alternative warning has been considered, including of course the variation of the use of sirens, but none of these alternatives has been found to be satisfactory. We have had a most important debate, if I may humbly say so of very high quality, with most interesting suggestions from many quarters, and I will bring all those suggestions to the notice of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State. My noble friend Lord Mottistone, who has always been very interested in this question, remarked that the most reverend Prelate had stated that if there was any real military reason for this regulation he would not press this Motion, and I think we all know that. But Lord Mottistone proceeded to say that an intelligent soldier—he did not give any indication as to who it was, but he occupied a very high position—gave him a certain opinion upon the subject. He asked me to state the name and rank of the soldiers who advised His Majesty's Government. That, coming from an ex-Secretary of State, seems to me to be a most unusual question. I doubt if he really meant it, but of course I must take the responsibility here for my right honourable friend in another place. The last thing in the world we could do would be to pick out one particular person and say "This is the officer who is responsible for this or that view."
LORD MOTTISTONE: My noble friend appeals to me as an ex-Secretary of State not to ask for the name of a particular officer. Of course I do not ask him to say "Lieutenant-General Binks is the man who says that these church bells are valuable for a warning," but I do ask him to name the particular authority who says it is wise to rely on the church bells.
LORD CROFT: I most emphatically say I cannot give any such information. I speak on behalf of the Army Council, and I take the political responsibility in this House. I, too, like the most reverend Prelate, greatly miss the ringing of the church bells. I have taken, therefore, exceptional opportunities when inspecting various Home Guard units all over the country, to make inquiry in order to try and get a general impression. I must confess that again and again I have heard discussions as to whether there is not some alternative method which could be used by means of the siren, or whether there was any other specific warning which could be given, and I have not in all my large-scale peregrinations come across the view which was expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Geddes.
LORD GEDDES: I will give you some addresses if you like.
LORD CROFT: I shall be only too pleased, because I take this debate very seriously, and I would like every suggestion which has been made to be examined. I will give a pledge that that shall be so. But the answer to the question as to whether the ringing of the bells is considered to be of military importance is the fact that my right honourable friend has done just what Lord Mottistone would have done in his place; my right honourable friend and the Army Council have tried to take the best military opinion of all Commands, and on that military opinion they have founded their decision. We share the desire of the most reverend Prelate that church bells should again come into general use, but so long as we are convinced that this is the only signal which can be regarded as a distinctive and definite warning no alteration in the existing arrangement can be made. I should like to say, however, that in view of the powerful speech of the most reverend Prelate, the exhilarating and witty thrusts of my noble friend Lord Quickswood, and the emphatic statements of Lord Geddes, I will bring all the arguments that have been used to-day before
1060
I my right honourable friend and will tell him what great interest those speeches have created in your Lordships' House.
THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF YORK:My Lords, I am naturally disappointed at the answer which has been given by the noble Lord. He has really simply repeated the statement we already know, that this is regarded as almost a military necessity, but he has not given us any reason in support of that view, and he has not told us why an alternative kind of warning would not be sufficient. He has not told us why the bells in all the towns should be silent, even if it is necessary for the bells to be rung in the country as a warning, but he has told us that this matter will receive most careful and full consideration. He has given a very definite pledge to that effect. In view of that pledge, and in view of his own interest in this subject and his sympathy with my object, I shall not press my Resolution at this moment. But I hope in the near future it will be possible for the noble Lord to make some further statement on the subject. If some satisfactory statement is not made in the near future I shall be bound to bring this matter up again and take it to a Division. I ask leave to withdraw the Motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

GOVERNMENT OF INDIA (GOVERNORS' ALLOWANCES AND PRIVILEGES) (AMENDMENT) ORDER, 1943.
LORD SNELL: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Munster, I beg to move the Motion standing in his name on the Paper.
Moved, That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, praying that the Order be made in the form of the draft approved by the House.—(Lord Snell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
The said Address to be presented to His Majesty by the Lords with White Staves.
House adjourned.