WATER UNDERTAKINGS BILL. [H.L.] (Hansard, 29 June 1943)

HL Deb 29 June 1943 vol 128 cc105-36 105

§ Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.

§ Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Earl of Munster.)

§ On Question, Motion agreed to.

§ House in Committee accordingly:

§ [The EARL OF ONSLOW in the Chair.]

§ Clause 1:

§ Power of Minister of Health to make orders authorizing establishment of, and facilitating co-operation between, water undertakings.

§ (3) Applicants for an order under this section shall submit to the Minister a draft of the order which they desire him to make and shall publish once at least in each of two successive weeks in one or more local newspapers circulating in the area within which they carry on, or propose to carry on, their water undertaking a notice—

(a) stating the general effect of their application;
(b) specifying a place in the said area where a copy of the draft order and of any relevant map or plan may be inspected by any person free of charge at all reasonable hours during a period of forty-two days, exclusive of any day in the month of August, from the date of the first publication of the notice; and
(c) stating that, within the said period, any person may by notice to the Minister, object to the application;

106 and, not later than the date on which the notice is first published, shall serve a copy thereof—

§ (ii) on the catchment board of any catchment area within which they carry on, or propose to carry on, their water undertaking; and

§ LORD HEMINGFORD had given Notice of an Amendment in subsection (3), at the beginning of paragraph (ii), to insert "except when the powers sought by the proposed order are confined to those mentioned in paragraph (f) of subsection (I) of this section." The noble Lord said: There are a large number of Amendments down in my name, and I may perhaps take this opportunity of saying that they have all been discussed with the Ministry by various bodies of undertakers. Therefore I hope they do not represent such a formidable task for your Lordships as might appear from the Paper. They will not take very long, but in the case of the first one the Ministry has suggested a different wording, and the new wording has been put down by the noble Viscount, Lord Falmouth. This I am prepared to accept as it has precisely the same effect. Therefore I do not move my first Amendment.

§ VISCOUNT FALMOUTH moved, at the beginning of paragraph (ii) in subsection (3), to insert "except where the application is for an order under subsection (I) (f) of this section only." The noble Viscount said: I beg to submit the Amendment standing in my name. I should like to move it in a slightly different form from that in which it appears on the Paper —namely, by substituting "where" for "when". Under the Bill the Minister of Health has powers to make orders when undertakers desire to carry out certain work. Subsection (I) (f) states that where powers are required to raise capital or borrow money for any purposes of a water undertaking these have to be the subject of an order, and this order has to be submitted under subsection 3 (ii) to any catchment board of any catchment area within which they carry on their undertaking. Catchment boards are not in the least interested in whether an undertaking within their area has to raise money or not, and to save time and facilitate working I wish to make it unnecessary for this notice to be submitted to catchment boards. I beg to move.

107

§ Amendment moved— Page 3, line 5, at the beginning insert the said words.—(Viscount Falmouth.)

§ THE PARLIAMENTARY' UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA AND BURMA (THE EARL OF MUNSTER)
I am prepared to accept the Amendment which my noble friend has moved, and which is worded, perhaps, better than the one put down by my noble friend Lord Hemingford.

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.

§ Clauses 2 and 3 agreed to.

§ Clause 4:

§ Power of local authorities to give guarantees to statutory water undertakers.

§ (4) If the undertakers, after tender to them of an undertaking which satisfies the foregoing provisions of this section, do not before the expiration of three months lay the necessary mains and bring water to the area in question, they shall be liable to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds and to a further fine not exceeding five pounds for each day on which1 their default continues after conviction therefor.

§ LORD HEMINGFORD moved, in subsection (4), after "shall," to insert "unless they show that the failure was due to unavoidable accident or other unavoidable cause." The noble Lord said: The wording of the Amendment explains itself sufficiently, and as I understand that the Government will probably be prepared to accept it, I do not propose to say any more.

§ Amendment moved— Page 8, line 14, after ("shall") insert the said new words.—(Lord Hemingford.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.

§ Clause 5 agreed to.

§ Clause 6 [Notice to be given to local authority of water supply to inhabited-house being cut off]:

§ LORD HEMINGFORD
The same remarks apply to my next Amendment. It is a question of time within which notice has to be given. Twenty-four hours are considered rather short, and forty-eight hours would be preferable. I believe that this Amendment will also be accepted, and I beg to move.

§ Amendment moved— Page 9, line 45, leave out ("twenty-four") and insert ("forty-eight").—(Lord Hemingford.)

108

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ Clause 6, as amended, agreed to.

§ Clause 7 [Power of Ministry to revise water rates and water charges]:

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
These two Amendments are to make the clause less restrictive, and they are practically drafting. I beg to move.

§ Amendments moved—

§ Page 10, line 8, leave out ("reduction or increase") and insert ("alteration")

§ Page 10, line 12, leave out ("reduction") and insert ("alteration").—(The Earl of Munster.)

§ On Question, Amendments agreed to.

§ Clause 7, as amended, agreed to.

§ Clause 8:

§ General provisions for protection of water from pollution.

§ 8.—(I) No person shall— (e) wilfully do any other Act whereby water belonging to any statutory undertakers is fouled:

§ VISCOUNT FALMOUTH moved, in subsection (I) (e), after "is," to insert "or is likely to be." The noble Viscount said: This is a relatively small Amendment, but it is considered to be one of importance by those responsible for water undertakings. The object is to prevent anything likely to cause the fouling of water. I understand the Government are in favour, and I beg to move.

§ Amendment moved— Page 11, line 42, after ("is") insert ("or is likely to be").—(Viscount Falmouth.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ Clause 8, as amended, agreed to.

§ Clause 9 agreed to.

§ Clause 10 [Power of statutory water undertakers to acquire and hold lands and execute works for protection of water]:

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
The Amend-ments which stand in my name on Clause 10 are all drafting, and perhaps I might move them together with your Lordships' permission.

§ Amendments moved—

§ Page 12, line 37, after ("lands") insert ("and any")

§ Page 12, line 38, after ("rights") insert ("over or in lands")

§ Page 12, line 38, leave out ("those lands") and insert ("any lands acquired by them under this subsection")

109

§ Page 13, line 8, after ("may") insert ("on any lands belonging to them, or over or in which they have acquired the necessary easements or rights")

§ Page 13, line 10, leave out (" any such lands as are referred to in the preceding subsection") and insert ("those lands").— (The Earl of Munster.)

§ On Question, Amendments agreed to.

§ LORD HEMINGFORD moved to add to the clause: (7) The powers conferred by this section on statutory water undertakers shall notwithstanding anything in the section of this Act relating to repeals to be effected thereby, be deemed to be in addition to and not in substitution for, any powers exercisable by them under any other enactment.

§ The noble Lord said: I do not feel quite so confident that my noble friend will accept this Amendment, but I hope that he will at least consider it sympathetically. I can put the point very shortly. This short clause contains a provision for undertakers to acquire lands and execute works for the purposes of the purity of their water supply, and most water undertakers already have similar powers in local Acts. The object of the words which I desire to have inserted is to preserve their existing powers. It is worth noting perhaps that the words of my Amendment are identical with the words of subsection (7) of Clause 11 which appear in the Bill. That being so I can scarcely see, though no doubt my noble friend will be able to tell me, how it is logical that the same provision should not apply in regard to this particular clause. I hope, therefore, that on consideration he will see that at least there is no great objection to my Amendment. Some of my friends who are concerned in various water undertakings do attach a considerable amount of importance to it. As I have already mentioned these provisions occur in a number of existing Acts and there would seem to be no reason why they should be taken away unless there is some special cause which can be shown for doing so. I beg to move.

§ Amendment moved— Page 13, line 46, at end insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Hemingford.)

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
This is an Amendment which I regret I am unable to accept. I think I am correct in believing that it is designed to allow certain water undertakings to execute works for the protection of their water without prior consultation with the catchment board 110 concerned. I can only believe from information I have been given that the catchment boards would very strongly object to these words being inserted. Furthermore, the words "after consultation with the catchment board concerned" which come in subsection (2) on page 13, were inserted by the Joint Select Committee in 1939 at the instance of the Catchment Boards' Association. I think therefore your Lordships would be well advised not to accept my noble friend's Amendment. Furthermore, if I did accept this Amendment the water undertakings would be in the fortunate position of being able to proceed either under a clause in their own special Act, which incidentally would not provide for consultation, or, alternatively, under Clause 10 which does provide for consultation. I think it would be far better if my noble friend would withdraw this Amendment and leave the clause as it is in the Bill.

§ LORD HEMINGFORD
May I ask my noble friend whether, in these circumstances, he would be prepared at a later stage perhaps to preserve the powers of existing undertakings under their special Acts?

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
I will certainly consider that but I cannot give the noble Lord any guarantee that I would accept it.

§ LORD ADDISON
I hope the noble Earl will not give any promise that would rule out consideration of the matter by the catchment boards.

§ LORD HEMINGFORD
I should be sorry to ask the noble Earl to give a guarantee which might put him into trouble and I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

§ Clause 10, as amended, agreed to.

§ Clause 11 agreed to.

§ Clause 12:

§ Temporary discharge of water into water courses.

§ (5) The undertakers shall take all necessary steps to secure that any water discharged by them under the provisions of this section shall be as free as may be reasonably practicable from mud and silt, from solid, polluting, offensive or injurious matters, and from any matter prejudicial to fish or spawn, or to spawning beds or food of fish, and, if they fail to do so, shall be liable— 111

(a) on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds; or
(b) on conviction on indictment, to a fine not exceeding two hundred pounds.

§ LORD HEMINGFORD moved to leave out subsections (2), (3) and (4). The noble Lord said: I am not by any means sure how much sympathy I shall get from my noble friend in regard to this Amendment, but I fail to see that he can give such an excellent answer to it as the one he gave to the last Amendment that I moved. The Amendment is to leave out subsections (2), (3) and (4). I may perhaps admit at once that these subsections are in accordance with the Committee's recommendations but there was considerable difficulty, I believe, found by the Committee in getting the various interests concerned to agree, and the agreement which was brought about was, I think, in the nature of trying to help on the proceedings of the Committee rather than a genuine agreement. At any rate there are a large number of undertakers who feel very strongly that these subsections are undesirable and should be omitted. I beg to move.

§ Amendment moved— Page 16, line 21, leave out subsections (2), (3) and (4).—(Lord Hemingford.)

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
I am afraid I can promise no better success for this Amendment than for the previous one of the noble Lord. These three subsections require that notice should be given to catchment board and others before there is a discharge of water, and they require undertakers to give due regard to representations that have been made to them. It is quite true this clause was the subject of considerable discussion before the Joint Select Committee in 1939. In the form in which it now stands in the Bill it represents an agreement which was reached after discussion by all the interests concerned and was endorsed by the Joint Committee. I should therefore be reluctant to ask your Lordships to omit these three subsections. I hope my noble friend will not forget that these catchment boards must at all times know what is coming, or is likely to come, into the river, because they are responsible for anything which will affect the flow or the purity of the river, and it seems to me that these three subsections do give ample scope for meeting any fear that might be caused to the catchment boards. I hope therefore 112 that my noble friend will refrain from pressing this Amendment.

LORD FARINGDON
I should like to support what the noble Earl has said. This matter was very fully discussed in the Committee, of which I happened to be a member. We felt very strongly on the Committee that it was essential the catchment boards should have these powers. The catchment boards have, in the past, been unable in many cases effectively to perform their functions because the waters were not fully under their control. I hope the Government will not give way on this point.

§ On Question, Amendment negatived.

§ LORD HEMINGFORD moved, in subsection (5), to leave out paragraph (b). The noble Lord said: The first obvious argument in favour of this Amendment is that the fine is a very heavy one, but there is a point beyond that and it is that the matter in question is in the opinion of some of us scarcely one to be dealt with on indictment before a jury. Therefore we suggest that this paragraph should be left out. Then the matter would fall entirely under paragraph (a) and would be dealt with by a smaller penalty by a court of summary jurisdiction. I hope that in the circumstances it may be considered that the smaller penalty will be quite sufficient and that this paragraph can reasonably be omitted.

§ Amendment moved— Page 18, line 11, leave out (" or (b) on conviction on indictment, to a fine not exceeding two hundred pounds ").—(Lord Hemingford.)

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
There is no need, I hope, for me to go into detail as to what this clause and this particular subsection endeavour to do, and I think in fact do, but I might remind my noble friend that this question of maximum penalty on indictment was very fully considered by the Joint Select Committee in 1939. After they had had the opportunity of hearing and appreciating all the arguments which were put before them, they decided to retain these words in the Bill. The matter also came before my noble and gallant friend as Chairman of what came to be known as the Milne Committee and they supported this heavy fine on those who might contravene the provisions of Clause 5. In those circumstances I think my noble friend might be advised not to 113 press this Amendment and to leave the subsection as it appears in the Bill.

§ LORD HEMINGFORD
I feel that there is probably sufficient weight against' my Amendment for it to be of very little use to press it. At the same time I would point out that there has been really no answer to what is the real argument in favour of this clause and that is the question of the tribunal which has to deal with it. With all respect for the Committee and their findings, I do not think we should be called upon necessarily to follow their advice upon a matter of this kind in every case, without review.

§ On Question, Amendment negatived.

§ Clause 12 agreed to.

§ Clauses 13 and 14 agreed to.

§ Clause 15:

§ Accounts to be made up annually and copies sent to certain officers.

§ 15.—(1) Where statutory water undertakers are a company, they shall in each year after that in which they commence to supply water from their waterworks, or, if they are supplying water at the passing of this Act, in each year after the passing thereof, prepare an abstract of the accounts of their undertaking for the preceding year showing under the appropriate heads their income and expenditure and the balances brought forward and carried forward respectively, and the abstract so prepared shall be signed by the chairman of the undertakers and by the auditors of the undertaking.

§ LORD HEMINGFORD moved, in subsection (1), after "company," to insert "or joint board." The noble Lord said: In this case again I think the Amendment explains itself. It is to bring within the operation of this clause not only undertakings which are owned by companies but those which are controlled by a joint board.

§ Amendment moved— Page 20, line 41, after ("company") insert ("or joint board").—(Lord Hemingford.)

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
A joint board refers entirely and absolutely to a combination of local authorities, and not to one single local authority. Therefore I would ask my noble friend whether it is his intention to make this subsection apply to all local authorities throughout the length and breadth of the land. There is a further question. Is the Amendment realty necessary? The accounts of all local authorities and of all joint boards are subject to Government audit and any 114 ratepayer has access to the accounts merely by asking to see them. Therefore I think there is really no need to insert these words, because the power of the private individual to sec the accounts of these joint boards already exists.

§ LORD HEMINGFORD
I realize that there is a great deal of support for the view which is taken by my noble friend and I will not press the Amendment.

§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

§ Clause 15 agreed to.

§ Clauses 16 to 20 agreed to.

§ Clause 21:

§ Incorporation, and application by order, of provisions of First Schedule.

§ (2) Subject to the following provisions of this section, the Minister may at any time by order apply the said provisions or any of them to the undertaking of any statutory water undertakers supplying water under a local Act or order, subject to such modifications and adaptations as may be specified in his order, and may by his order repeal or amend any provisions previously applicable to the undertaking which appear to him to be inconsistent with, or rendered redundant by, any provisions so applied:

§ Provided that during a period of five years from the commencement of this Act he shall not make such an order except on the application of the undertakers concerned.

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER moved, in the proviso in subsection (2), to leave out "a period of five years from the commencement of this Act" and insert "the period beginning with the date of the passing of this Act and ending on the expiration of five years from the day declared by Order in Council under subsection (2) of Section six of the Special Enactments (Extension of Time) Act, 1940, to be the day on which the emergency that was the occasion of the passing of that Act came to an end." The noble Earl said: The object of this Amendment is to make the five years run from the end of the war instead of from the passing of this Act when it has received the approval of both Houses of Parliament. My noble friend Lord Hemingford will see that his Amendment covers practically the same ground. I would suggest to him that my words are more comprehensive than those in the Amendment he has put down and in those circumstances perhaps he would accept my Amendment.

115

§ Amendment moved— Page 24, line 4, leave out from ("during") to ("he") in line 5 and insert the said new words.—(The Earl of Munster.)

§ LORD ADDISON
Do I understand that if this Amendment is accepted these powers will be postponed until five years after the termination of the war as may be hereafter defined? That may be a very long time.

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
I think I can probably resolve any doubts of my noble friend. The effect of this Amendment is, as I have said, to make the five years run from the end of the war. Within that time the Minister of Health will be debarred from applying the provisions of the First Schedule on his own Motion without any application from any particular undertakings. I think that covers the point my noble friend has in mind.

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ LORD HEMINGFORD moved, after subsection (4), to insert: (5) Where any undertakers at the date when an order is made by the Minister under this section applying to them the provisons of paragraph 50 of the First Schedule to this Act are levying under the authority of any enactment additional charges in respect of water closets and baths they shall be entitled to increase any water rate, which they are authorized by the enactments relating to their undertaking to charge for water supplied for domestic purposes, by such percentage as will produce an additional revenue as nearly as practicable equal to the revenue which they were obtaining from such additional charges. Any question as to the amount of the percentage by which the said water rate may be so increased shall be determined by the Minister or by an arbitrator appointed by him.

§ The noble Lord said: This Amendment is to insert a new subsection to the effect that where any undertakers, at the date when an order is made by the Minister under this subsection applying the First Schedule of the Act, are levying under enactment additional charges in respect of water closets and baths they should be entitled to increase any water rate which they are authorized by their Acts to charge for water supplied for domestic purposes so as to replace the loss. I have put it shortly, but I think that is the effect of the Amendment. If the provisions of the First Schedule of this Bill are applied, the question might arise of the undertakers not being able to make extra charges, as they were originally entitled to do, and as 116 many of them did in former days, for water closets and baths. But if they are debarred from those charges while those charges are existing, it seems only reasonable that they should have a method of recouping themselves the expense of the extra supply of water required. I think that the proposal contained in this Amendment is a reasonable one for recompensing them to that extent. I beg to move.

§ Amendment moved— Page 24, line 28, at end insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Hemingford.)

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
This is an Amendment which it is really impossible for me to accept for it might enable a water undertaking, without any reference to Parliament or to the Minister, to increase its water rates beyond the maximum rates laid down by any special Act. My noble friend Lord Hemingford will know that it is contrary to all precedent and wrong in principle that maximum rates should be free of Parliamentary and Ministerial control. Let us take the argument a little further. If a water undertaking is not levying the maximum rates it is obviously free to carry out any adjustment within these limits to recoup itself for loss of revenue from abolishing extra charges for baths and water closets. Where an undertaking can fully recoup itself without going outside the maximum authorized rates there is no need for an Amendment. On the other hand, where an undertaking cannot fully recoup itself within the maximum rates, the proper course is to apply to the Minister under Clause 7 of the Bill. I hope that my noble friend will not press this Amendment. It is an Amendment which it would be utterly impossible for me to accept.

§ LORD HEMINGFORD
With your Lordships' permission I will withdraw my Amendment.

§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
The next is a drafting Amendment.

§ Amendment moved— Page 24, line 35, leave out ("water").— (The Earl of Munster.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ On Question, whether Clause 21, as amended, shall be agreed to?

§ LORD ADDISON
On this question I would like to revert to the Amendment 117 which was accepted by the noble Earl on behalf of the Government. I confess that I do not follow from his explanation what may be the result of the Amendment. So far as I do understand it I feel profoundly disquieted, and I think that either now or at the next stage of this Bill, the House is entitled to a fuller explanation. So far as I understand it, the Amendment means that this clause will not be operative until five years after the end of the war. That is to say that there will be an Act, as of course there was after the last war, defining the end of the war, which will not be the same, of course, for all purposes. The Act defining the end of the war will be applicable to this and to almost all other relevant legislation; but it may be a very long time before we get to the end of the war. We do not know when the end will be. That means that during the whole of this period, instead of only five years from the passing of this Act the clause will not be operative. We do not know when the war is going to end—it may be ten years hence.
As my noble friend realizes, it is quite likely that the official end of the war may have to be after the termination of hostilities with Japan. Then you will have to make your War Act very elastic. It appears that during the whole of this time, instead of merely five years from the passing of the Act, the Minister of Health may not exercise the powers set out in Clause 21. The noble Lord moved this and the Government have accepted it, but I had hoped that we should have had, if I may say so with respect, a more reasoned justification for the action of the Government. If the noble Earl is not disposed to say any more about this to-day I should be quite content to wait until the next stage, but I should like to have a more reasoned statement on the subject.

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
I think I can set my noble friend Lord Addison's mind at rest on this matter now. What I am dealing with here is a reference to the First Schedule of the Bill which we have not reached yet but to which we shall shortly come. What this Amendment provides is that the Minister shall be debarred from applying the provisions of the First Schedule himself, but that will not stop any application being made to the Minister by any particular under- 118 taking for the First Schedule of the Bill to be incorporated in any special Act.

§ LORD HEMINGFORD
I would like to say a word in support of what has been said by my noble friend on the Government Bench. It has to be borne in mind that this provision which it is proposed should be put off for only five years from the final expiration of the emergency period is a somewhat drastic one. It does not interfere with the ordinary machinery of the Bill, but it provides that the Minister may, of his own Motion, impose all the conditions of this Schedule upon existing undertakings. That is a matter to which undertakers have got to give very considerable attention. It may be a very long time before the official termination of the emergency period, and until that time comes people concerned in matters of this kind will not have time and opportunity to go into these matters and consider them. I believe that this is supported by all water undertakers without any exception, and I sincerely hope that your Lordships will agree to it.

LORD FARINGDON
As the noble Lord, Lord Hemingford, has said, the reason for this period of five years which was put into the Act as passed by the Committee was to give the undertakings time to put their houses in order. I am, however, I confess, a little disturbed, as is my noble friend Lord Addison, by this provision which His Majesty's Government have accepted to put off the day until five years after the end of the war. I should have been more inclined to let the original provisions stand, and if necessary to postpone the application until later on if the war went on for such a long time as to make it impracticable. May I say I feel somewhat unhappy about this acceptance? It seems to me to put off the day for a very long time. It is clearly desirable that a Minister should have these powers, and this postponement is only intended to enable the undertakings to put their houses in order. If that is desirable, it should be done at the earliest possible moment. I confess to a feeling of some disquiet about this Amendment.

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
It will probably be the wish of the Committee that I should examine the point which my noble friend has raised, but in my own mind I do not feel any serious concern about it. 119 I shall certainty look into the matter, however, between now and the next stage of the Bill.

§ Clause 21, as amended, agreed to.

§ Clauses 22 and 23 agreed to.

§ Clause 24 [Repeals]:

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER moved to add to the clause: Provided that the repeal, by virtue of this section, of the Water Undertakings (Modification of Charges) Act, 1921, shall not operate as a repeal of any order under that Act in force immediately before the passing of this Act.

§ The noble Earl said: This Amendment puts it beyond doubt that the repeal of the Act of 1921 does not affect any orders which were made under that Act and which are, in fact, still in force.

§ Amendment moved—

§ Page 25, line 12, at end insert the said proviso.—(The Earl of Munster.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ Clause 24, as amended, agreed to.

§ Clause 25 agreed to.

§ Clause 26 [Short title and extent]:

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER moved to add to the clause: (3) Nothing in this Act shall impose any charge on the people, or vary the amount or incidence of, or otherwise alter, any such charge in any manner, or affect the assessment, levying, administration or application of any money raised by any such charge.

§ The noble Earl said: This is, I understand, a technical Amendment which has to be inserted here, and is designed to preserve the privileges of another place.

§ Amendment moved—

§ Page 25, line 27, at end insert the said new subsection.—(The Earl of Munster.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ Clause 26, as amended, agreed to.

§ First Schedule [Provisions to be incorporated in Acts and Orders relating to water undertakings]:

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
My first Amendment to paragraph 1 is really drafting; it means taking out words which are in the wrong place, and which by a later Amendment are to be inserted in their correct place in the Bill.

120

§ Amendment moved— Page 26, line 37, leave out from the beginning to the end of line 5 on page 27.—(The Earl of Munster.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
The next Amendment is drafting.

§ Amendment moved— Page 29, line 19, leave out ("carrying") and insert ("conveying").—(The Earl of Munster.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
The next Amendment is consequential on the first Amendment to the Schedule.

§ Amendment moved—

§ Page 29, line 33, at end insert: (2) Any reference in this Schedule to the persons having the control or management of a street or bridge shall be construed as a reference, in the case of a highway or bridge maintainable at the public expense, to the authority who are the highway authority, or, as the case may be, the bridge authority in respect thereof and, in the case of any other street or bridge, to the authority or person responsible for the maintenance thereof, or, if no authority or person is responsible therefor, to the owners of the soil of the street or, as the case may be, of the structure of the bridge."—(The Earl of Munster.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ Paragraph 14:

§ Provisions as to compensation water.

§ 14.—(1) During the construction of any authorized impounding reservoir the undertakers may, subject as hereinafter provided, take from any stream to be impounded thereby such water as they may require:

§ Provided that, before taking any water from the stream they shall, on an approved site, construct an approved gauge to gauge the flow of the stream and, while the flow of water through or over the gauge is less than the prescribed flow, they shall not take any water.

§ (2) After the completion of the reservoir the undertakers shall, at an approved point within such limits as may be prescribed, discharge into the stream from, or from streams feeding, the reservoir during every day of twenty-four hours reckoned from midnight in a uniform and continuous flow a quantity of water not less than the prescribed quantity, and, for the purpose of gauging such discharge, they shall construct and maintain in good order approved gauges on approved sites.

§ (3) If the undertakers—

(a) fail to construct or maintain in good order any such gauge as aforesaid, or refuse to allow any person interested to inspect and examine any such gauge or any records 121 made thereby or kept by them in connexion therewith or to take copies of any such records; or
(b) take any water from the stream contrary to the provision;, of subsection (1) of this section, or fail to comply with the requirements of subsection (2) of this section with respect to the discharge of water into the stream,

they shall, without prejudice to their civil liability, if any, to a person aggrieved, be liable, in the case of an offence under paragraph (a) of this subsection, to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds, in respect of each day on which the offence has been committed or has continued, and in the case of an offence under paragraph (6) of this subsection—

(i) on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds in respect of each such day; and
(ii) on conviction on indictment, to a fine not exceeding five hundred pounds in respect of each such day.

§ (4) In this section, the expression "gauge" includes a gauge weir or other apparatus for measuring the flow of water, and the expression "approved" means approved by the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries; and, for the purposes of this section, a catchment board, a fishery board, a rivers board and a navigation authority shall be deemed to be interested in the flow of water in, and the discharge of water into, any stream within their area or district, or, as the case may be any part of, their system of navigation, and shall be deemed to be aggrieved by the commission of an offence under this section in relation to any such stream.

§ (5) The foregoing provisions of this section shall be deemed to have been accepted by all persons interested as full compensation for all water impounded by the authorized works, except in respect of any land between the foot of the embankment of the reservoir and the point of discharge approved for the purposes of subsection (2) of this section.

§ (6) Subject to the provisions of Section five of the Criminal Justice Administration Act, 1914 any fine recovered under this section on the complaint of a fishery board or of an officer of, or person authorized by, a fishery board shall, as to the whole or such part thereof as the court may determine, be paid to the board in respect of the costs of the prosecution.

§ LORD HEMINGFORD moved to leave out paragraph 14. The noble Lord said: This deals with the matter of compensation water, which, if my memory serves me aright, I referred to on the Second Reading of this Bill. The whole question of compensation water is one over which Committees of both Houses have had immense difficulties in a number of Private Bills, over and over again. These difficulties with regard to compensation water have usually been settled in a special form applicable to the particular case, and those particular cases vary very much. 122 It is not always desirable that the compensation water should be supplied regularly by a steady flow; it is sometimes wanted at special times and in special quantities in special cases. I venture to think that it would be very much better to leave out these compulsory provisions which it is suggested should be imposed on water undertakings generally, and leave this question of compensation water to be dealt with on its own merits in each case as it arises.

§ Amendment moved— Page 33, line 31, leave out paragraph 14.— (Lord Hemingford.)

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
This is an important Amendment, dealing, as my noble friend said, with compensation water, which I regret that it is not possible for me to accept. It is perfectly true, as my noble friend said, that the question of compensation water is always fought out in Parliament on each special Bill which is introduced into either House, but the question of the amount of water is not dealt with in any way whatever, as my noble friend will see, by paragraph 14. What in effect paragraph 14 says is that whatever the amount which Parliament awards as compensation water, that water shall be sent down in accordance with the general rules which are set out in this paragraph, and the penalties for failure to observe these rules are also set out at the end of the paragraph. I think I should make it clear to my noble friend that this paragraph does not in any way prejudice the raising of further questions as to the determination of the amount of water to be sent down when the additional legislation to which I referred on the Second Reading of the Bill is brought into operation. That will deal with major matters of policy, and it can in fact be inserted then. I should further make it clear that this paragraph is a standard paragraph, which has no effect on any particular undertaker until it is inserted in the special Bill of that undertaker. When the question of incorporation arises, the undertaker's case for necessary modification can be decided by Parliament at the appropriate time.

§ LORD HEMINGFORD
Does that apply in cases where the provisions of this Schedule are to be applied compulsorily to existing undertakings?

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
I was talking of future Bills, but I think that my 123 noble friend will see that it is necessary to leave this paragraph in the Schedule. I should regret to see paragraph 14 left out of the Bill, and I hope that my noble friend will see his way to withdraw the Amendment.

§ LORD HEMINGFORD
I do not feel inclined to withdraw this Amendment without any further observation about it, because I apprehend that, if this paragraph is inserted, it might become applicable not only to future Acts but, under the imposition of the conditions of this Schedule, to undertakings already in existence, under Clause 21. If so, that is likely to give rise to serious conflict and to a good deal of dispute. I hope that the noble Earl will agree to give further consideration to this matter before the next stage of the Bill, so that we may try to get some Amendment here which will meet particular points which have been raised. If he will do that, I shall not press the Amendment at this stage.

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
Having heard my noble friend's view, I will consider the matter between now and the next stage of the Bill, but he will forgive me if I say that I do not think I shall be in a position to bring in an Amendment which will satisfy him. I will, however, consider it.

LORD FARINGDON
I am very glad to hear the noble Earl's rather pessimistic reply—pessimistic, that is, from the point of view of Lord Hemingford. This is a complicated matter, and I think that this paragraph is of the essence of the Schedule, and I hope that the Government will be firm and retain it.

§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

§ Paragraph 16:

§ Map of underground works to be prepared and kept up to date, and placed on deposit.

§ (2) The undertakers shall, from time to time, within three months after the said map was prepared and after each occasion on which it was in any way corrected, cause a copy of so much of the plan or, as the case may be, of any corrected part thereof, as relates to any such area as is hereinafter mentioned to be deposited—

(a) in the case of a county, with the clerk to the county council;
(b) in the case of a borough with the town clerk; and
(c) in the case of an urban district, not being a borough, and in the case of a rural district, with the clerk to the district council.

§ (3) The said map, and the copies thereof go deposited, shall at all reasonable hours be open to inspection by any person interested free of charge.

§ LORD HEMINGFORD moved to leave out sub-paragraph (2) of paragraph 16. The noble Lord said: This Amendment and the next one standing in my name realty go together, and are consequential on one another. So far as I can make out, my noble friend, speaking on behalf of the Government, is not likely to accept these Amendments absolutely as they stand, but I hope that it will be a case of his postponing his acceptance only. I understand that the Ministry desire to be quite clear that these Amendments have been agreed to by all the local authorities concerned. I cannot assure him now that they have been so agreed to, because I believe that no answer has yet been received from the County Councils' Association; but I understand that the bodies representing the other local authorities have agreed, and therefore, if the noble Earl does not see his way to accept this Amendment at this stage, I will withdraw it, on the understanding that the matter shall be gone into further as soon as a reply is received from the representatives of the county councils. If that reply is favourable, I hope that this Amendment will be accepted by the Government.

§ Amendment moved— Page 35, line 16, leave out sub-paragraph (2).—(Lord Hemingford.)

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
I am quite prepared to accept this Amendment and the next one.

§ LORD ADDISON
May I ask why? Why in the world should they deposit these copies? I can see no reason why the next Amendment should be accepted.

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
I have heard of no objections raised by the County Councils' Association, referred to by my noble friend.

§ LORD ADDISON
I understand it was put in the Schedule because it was thought desirable that these authorities should have these copies.

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
Waste of paper.

§ LORD ADDISON
Not at all.

125

§ LORD HEMINGFORD
If the original map is available it is the one thing which ought to be referred to by those who are concerned, because they would scarcely be able to settle satisfactorily the points which may arise from seeing the copies or, in effect, extracts from the big map. The proper way is undoubtedly for them to apply to see the original map. There will never be any difficulty about it, and the circumlocution and trouble caused by having the copies and extracts made and deposited at various offices would add immensely to the trouble, not only of the undertakers but of the local authorities concerned. I sincerely hope that your Lordships will agree that in these days one thing at any rate is very advisable, and that is that we should' not throw unnecessary labour on public offices.

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ LORD HEMINGFORD
The next Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.

§ Amendment moved— Page 35, line 26, leave out ("and the copies thereof so deposited").—(Lord Hemingford.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ Paragraph 33:

§ Duty of undertakers to lay additional mains on certain conditions.

§ 33.—(1) The undertakers shall lay any necessary mains and bring water to any area within the limits of supply if they are required to do so by such number of owners and occupiers of premises in that area who require a supply of water for domestic purposes that the aggregate amount of water rates payable annually by those owners and occupiers in respect of those premises at the prescribed rates will not be less than one-tenth of the expense of providing and laying the necessary mains, and if those owners and occupiers agree severally with the undertakers to take a supply of water for three years a least.

§ LORD HEMINGFORD moved, in sub-paragraph (1), to leave out "one-tenth" and insert "one-eighth." The noble Lord said: This Amendment is a very small one, and I hope it will be generally agreed that it is a reasonable one. It deals with the prescribed rates, and I hope I shall not arouse the hostility of my noble friend opposite if I say that the Amendment will be of some use and of some advantage to the undertakers. They have to lay certain necessary mains, and the point at issue here is as to the prescribed rates being a certain proportion of 126 the expense of providing and laying the necessary mains if the owners agree severally with the undertakers to take a supply for a period of three years. This, I believe, was agreed by the Government.

§ Amendment moved— Page 41, line 49, leave out ("one-tenth") and insert ("one-eighth").—(Lord Hemingford.)

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
I am prepared to accept this.

§ LORD ADDISON
Really I must enter a protest. As this discussion proceeds I become more and more suspicious. This Bill has been subject to the most meticulous examination by the Joint Committee, and it is the result of their joint and prolonged deliberations. I suggest with great respect that the House is entitled to have some notice as to what line the Government are going to take. If they were going to accept this Amendment it should have been on the Paper in the name of the noble Earl representing the Government. This means that owners and occupiers will have to pay more than they otherwise would: instead of having to pay one-tenth, they will have to pay one-eighth. And if the Joint Committee arrived at the conclusion that one-tenth was a fair charge I do not see why we should, without any reason whatever given, suddenly increase it to one-eighth. This Amendment is wrong.

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
I think I can possibly calm my noble friend when I tell him that, as he may have forgotten, the Joint Select Committee reported in 1939. Since that date the ratio of overhead charges has considerably increased. In fact, there has been an enormous increase since 1939, and it seemed only fair to us to substitute one-eighth for one-tenth. Moreover, I am told that modern special Acts of Parliament have invariably allowed an increase to one-eighth, or even more. The proposed Amendment therefore seems to me to be in line with the practice that Parliament has quite often adopted. I much hope that the noble Lord opposite will see his way to agree to this Amendment. It would be unfortunate if we were to divide. As I say, the cost of overhead charges and of general expenses has increased out of all proportion since the Committee reported and the war broke out.

127

§ LORD ADDISON
I am unconvinced by the noble Earl. It is true that costs have risen since the beginning of the war. Of course they have; but that applies to the tenth as well as the eighth. One-tenth would be a greater amount now for the occupier or the owner to pay than it would have been in 1939—of course it would, and one-eighth would be more still. What the Government are doing by accepting this Amendment is to increase the burden and difficulty of the owner and occupier proportionately without any reason given. Because the reason which the noble Lord advanced is not a reason. It applies to the tenth just as much as it does to the eighth: they have both gone up. I cannot see any reason whatever why the Joint Committee's recommendations should be departed from. Certainly we ought to have had some notice. I do not know how many other surprises the noble Earl has in store for us, I hope he has not any more. I view this with the greatest suspicion, and I should like to know what we are going to be let in for. Anyhow, I think this is completely wrong.

LORD FARINGDON
I should like to support my noble friend Lord Addison. I confess I am dismayed by this concession on the part of the Government. The Committee felt very strongly that something must be done which would facilitate the bringing of piped water as extensively throughout the countryside as might be possible. What this provision really does is to lay down the condition under which suppliers must give a supply of water. If the annual rate does not amount to one-tenth then the people who want their water supply will not be entitled to demand it. If you increase the amount from one-tenth to one-eighth it makes it so much less likely that the people requiring water supply will be able to insist on it. I see the noble Earl, Lord De La Warr, in his place. He is interested in agricultural conditions, and I suspect that, like me, he is interested in getting piped water to agricultural cottages and villages. That is already a difficult problem in the country districts, and this provision will make it still more difficult. I deplore the Government's acceptance of this Amendment.

§ LORD ADDISON
I gather that the noble Earl is prepared to give me some assurance.

128

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
I am perfectly prepared to give the noble Lord the assurance that, if my noble friend Lord Hemingford withdraws this Amendment now, I shall consider the matter further between now and the next stage of the Bill.

§ LORD HEMINGFORD
I am prepared to withdraw my Amendment on those terms.

§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

§ Paragraph 34:

§ Right to demand supply for domestic purposes.

§ Provided that the undertakers shall be under no such liability if the failure to furnish or maintain a supply is due to—

(a) frost, drought, unavoidable accident or other unavoidable cause, or the execution of necessary works; or
(b) failure of the person aggrieved to comply with any by-law of the undertakers.

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER moved, in paragraph 34 (I) (b), after "any," to insert "enactment relating to, or." The noble Earl said: It is clear that the conditions with which consumers are required to comply may be set out in any special Act itself and not in its by-laws. Your Lordships will agree that the Amendment is obviously necessary.

§ Amendment moved— Page 42, line 31, after ("any") insert ("enactment relating to, or").—(The Earl of Munster.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
The next Amendment is drafting.

§ Amendment moved—

§ Page 43, line 7, at end insert ("or displaying").—(The Earl of Munster.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ Paragraph 40:

§ Water to be taken to extinguish fires without charge.

§ 40. The undertakers shall allow all persons to take water for extinguishing fires, without payment.

§ LORD HEMINGFORD moved, in paragraph 40, after "fires," to insert "from any pipe on which a hydrant is fixed." The noble Lord said: Paragraph 40 provides that undertakers shall allow all persons to take water for extinguishing fires, without payment. The existing law permits persons to take water from the 129 mains of undertakers to which hydrants are fixed. If the provision is not confined to any particular set of persons, and if provision is not made for proper apparatus, this might result in an imminent risk of pollution. In these circumstances I hope even my noble friend Lord Addison will agree with the Amendment, which I feel sure the Government will accept.

§ Amendment moved— Page 43, line 20, after ("fires") insert ("from any pipe on which a hydrant is fixed").—(Lord Hemingford.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
The next two Amendments are drafting, and correspond with the wording used elsewhere in the Bill. I beg to move.

§ Amendments moved—

§ Page 43, line 33, leave out ("repairs or alterations") and insert ("works").

§ Page 44, line 4, leave out ("repairs or alterations") and insert ("works").—(The Earl of Munster).

§ On Question, Amendments agreed to.

§ Paragraph 45:

§ Laying of communication pipes, etc.

§ (2) If the undertakers fail to carry out the said work within fourteen days after the person by whom the notice was given has laid a supply pipe in accordance with the provisions of the last preceding section, they shall be liable to a fine not exceeding five pounds and to a further fine not exceeding forty shillings for each day on which the default continues after the expiration of the said fourteen days.

§ (4) Notwithstanding anything in the foregoing provisions of this section, undertakers to whom such a notice as aforesaid is given may, within three days after the receipt thereof, require the person giving the notice either to pay to them in advance the cost of the work, as estimated by their engineer, or to give security for payment thereof to their satisfaction, and, where they make such a requirement, the period of fourteen days referred to in subsection (2) of this section shall not commence to run until the requirement has been complied with.

§ LORD HEMINGFORD moved, in paragraph 45 (2), after "shall," to insert "unless they show that the failure was due to unavoidable accident or other unavoidable cause." The noble Lord said: This Amendment, I think, commends itself to everybody, and I beg to move.

§ Amendment moved— Page 45, line 1, after ("shall") insert the said words.—(Lord Hemingford.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

130

§ LORD HEMINGFORD moved, in paragraph 45 (4), to leave out "three" and insert "seven." The noble Lord said: In this case I do not think any controversy is likely to arise. It is a question of time within which notice has to be given. The paragraph at present reads: Notwithstanding anything in the foregoing provisions of this section, undertakers to whom such a notice as aforesaid is given may, within three days after the receipt thereof, require the person giving the notice either to pay to them in advance the cost of the work and so on. The Amendment will increase the time to seven days which, in view of the large area covered by some of these undertakings, is not unreasonable. I beg to move.

§ Amendment moved— Page 45, line 16, leave out ("three") and insert ("seven").—(Lord Hemingford.)

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
I am prepared to accept.

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
The next Amendment is drafting.

§ Amendment moved— Page 46, line 36, at end insert ("the").— (The Earl of Munster).

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ Paragraph 48:

§ Vesting of communication pipes and repair of such pipes and of supply pipes in highways.

§ 48.—(I) All communication pipes, whether laid before or after the coming into force of this section shall vest in the undertakers and undertakers shall at their own expense carry out any necessary works of maintenance, repair or renewal of such pipes and any work on their mains incidental thereto.

§ LORD HEMINGFORD had on the Paper two Amendments to sub-paragraph (1) of paragraph 48—namely, to leave out the words "at their own expense" and to add the following proviso to the sub-paragraph: Provided that the expenses reasonably incurred by them in carrying out any such work as aforesaid in relation to—

(i) any communication pipe laid for the supply of water to premises used solely or mainly for business, trade or manufacturing purposes, and
(ii) so much (if any) of any other communication pipe as is further from the main with which it is connected than the width of the street in which the main is laid

may be recovered by the undertakers summarily from the owner of the premises sup- 131 plied by the pipe, but without prejudice to the rights and obligations, as between themselves, of the owner and the occupier of the premises.

§ The noble Lord said: Under this provision all communication pipes, whether laid before or after the Act comes into force, shall vest in the undertakers, and the undertakers are to carry out at their own expense any necessary works of maintenance, repair, or renewal of such pipes, and any works on their mains incidental thereto. The Amendment proposes to leave out the words "at their own expense" and then to insert as consequential the Amendment following on the Order Paper in my name. I think that is not unreasonable and unless there is any objection raised I will content myself with formally moving the Amendment and will afterwards move the second Amendment containing a proviso.

§ Amendment moved— Page 46, line 37, leave out (" at their own expense ").—(Lord Hemingford.)

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
Perhaps I might deal with this Amendment and the next one which stands in the name of my noble friend as they are in fact linked together. The effect of these two Amendments taken together would be that owners and occupiers of premises other than the dwelling-house would be required to bear the expense of maintaining, repairing, and renewing their communication pipes. Clause 48, sub-paragraph (1), amends the general law by making water undertakers responsible when this clause comes into operation in any area for the maintenance, repair and renewal of communication pipes. The question of whether industry should bear the cost of maintenance and repair and renewal of the communication pipes was very fully considered by the Joint Select Committee, and they decided not to allow an Amendment providing that industry should bear this cost. I hope therefore that my noble friend will not press this or the next Amendment for in fact, if carried, they would be a heavy charge on industry.

§ LORD HEMINGFORD
As the noble Earl said, these two Amendments can be taken together. I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment which I have moved, and I shall not move the consequential one.

§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

132

§ Paragraph 53:

§ Power to require supply to certain premises and for certain purposes to be taken by meter,

§ 53.—(I) The following provisions of this section shall have effect where a maximum charge for a supply of water by meter is prescribed.

§ (2) The undertakers shall not be bound to supply with water otherwise than by meter— (a) any premises used as a house whereof a part is used by the same occupier for any business, trade or manufacturing purpose for which water is required;

§ (3) Where water supplied to a farmhouse is used for farming purposes as well as for domestic purposes, the undertakers may require that the water used for farming purposes shall be taken by meter.

§ LORD ADDISON
I formally move the Amendment in the name of Lord Horder, to insert words in sub-paragraph (2) (a), in order that the noble Earl opposite may make a statement.

§ Amendment moved— Page 48, line 38, after ("purpose") insert ("(other than a purpose which is met by a supply of water for domestic purposes) "). (Lord Addison.)

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
I only wish to say a few words on this Amendment and the other one in Lord Horder's name. I understand that Lord Horder agreed to withdraw them in view of the fact that an agreement has been reached between all the parties, and at the next stage of the Bill I shall be putting down an Amendment which will meet the point that my noble friend has in mind.

§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

§ LORD HEMINGFORD moved, in sub-paragraph (3), to leave out "the water used for farming purposes" and insert "all water so supplied." The noble Lord said: I venture to think that this really is not much more than a drafting Amendment, and I hope the Government will be prepared to accept it.

§ Amendment moved— Page 49, line 3, leave out (" the water used for farming purposes ") and insert (" all water so supplied.")—(Lord Hemingford.)

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
This is an Amendment which I regret I cannot accept. The object of it is to enable water undertakers, where water is supplied to a farmhouse both for domestic and farming purposes, to charge for the whole supply by meter. Under this paragraph of the 133 Schedule as it stands, the undertakers can charge by meter for the supply of water for farming purposes but cannot charge by meter for domestic supplies. I am not aware that my noble friend has produced any specific case which might show that the water supplied to farmhouses for domestic purposes and charged for by water rate might be and in fact has been taken for farming purposes. The Committee considered this point with great care and came to the conclusion that it was better to put the farmhouse on a different basis from the domestic house. In those circumstances I hope my noble friend will not press his Amendment.

§ LORD HEMINGFORD
I will not do so as that is the attitude taken by the Government. I know the matter is one on which there has been some difference of opinion. I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
The next Amendment in my name, to paragraph 55, is drafting. I beg to move.

§ Amendment moved— Page 49, line 40, leave out (" other ").— (The Earl of Munster.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ LORD HEMINGFORD had an Amendment on the Paper to leave out the proviso in sub-paragraph (2) of paragraph 64. The noble Lord said: The object of this Amendment is to leave out a proviso that by-laws made for the purpose of paragraph (a) shall not apply in relation to fittings used in connexion with a supply of water by meter. This is a matter which is still under discussion among the various parties concerned and interested in the Bill and under those circumstances, without prejudice to what may be done on a future occasion after there has been further discussion, I will, if my noble friend on the Government Benches agrees, not move it now but leave the matter to be raised at a subsequent period either in this House or in another place.

I am afraid that my Amendments to paragraphs 68 and 74 will probably all be resisted for the same reason by my noble friend on the Front Bench as he gave for resisting the one which he has already dealt with in relation to measuring the supply of water by meter. There- 134 fore I think I will refrain from moving these Amendments now.

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
The next Amendment in my name, in paragraph 78, is drafting. I beg to move.

§ Amendment moved— Page 59, line 32, leave out (" supplied by ") and insert ("belonging to").—(The Earl of Munster.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ Paragraph 81:

§ Reserve and contingency funds.

§ (4) Whenever, and so long as, the aggregate amount standing to the credit of the reserve fund and contingency fund together amounts to (or, by reason of such a transfer as aforesaid, exceeds) a sum equal to ten per cent. of the capital expenditure theretofore incurred by the undertakers for the purposes of their undertaking, no contribution from the profits of the undertaking shall be made to either of the funds, and the interest and dividends on the funds shall not be invested but shall be treated as income of the undertaking.

§ (5) The aggregate amount which, subject to the provisions of the last preceding sub section, may be carried by the undertakers in any year to the formation or maintenance of the reserve fund and contingency fund shall not exceed a sum equal to one' per cent. Of the capital expenditure theretofore incurred by the undertakers for the purposes of their undertaking.

§ VISCOUNT FALMOUTH moved, in sub-paragraph (4), to substitute "fifteen" for "ten." The noble Viscount said: This Amendment deals with the question of the compensation fund to be established by the undertaking. When this Bill was originally before the House in 1939 the figure instead of 10 per cent. was made 15 per cent. Subsequently, discussion took place and it was decided that 15 per cent. was too high and therefore 10 per cent. was substituted in its place. Now very much has happened since 1939. As the noble Earl in charge of the Bill said in another instance, costs have gone up enormously as compared with the period before the war. Certainly to-day the cost of the things I have in mind in this connexion has gone up 20 per cent. and I do not think it is unfair to ask the Government to allow the undertakings to have a compensation fund of 15 per cent. to meet the greatly increased charges instead of 10 per cent. I beg to move.

§ Amendment moved— Page 61, line 12, leave out (" ten ") and insert (" fifteen ").—(Viscount Falmouth.)

135

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
After the noble Viscount's explanation of this Amendment the Government are prepared to accept it.

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

VISCOUNT FALMOUTH
The next Amendment, in sub-paragraph (5), deals with an exactly similar case and I understand the Government are prepared to accept it.

§ Amendment moved— Page 61, line 20, after ("one") insert (" and a half ").—(Viscount Falmouth.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ Paragraph 87:

§ Power to prohibit temporarily use of hosepipes in case of drought.

§ 87.—(I) If the undertakers are of opinion that by reason of an exceptional shortage of rain a serious deficiency of water available for distribution by them exists, or is threatened, they may prohibit as from such date as they deem necessary and until the prohibition is withdrawn by them the use, except for the purpose of extinguishing fires, of any water supplied by them and drawn through a hosepipe or similar apparatus.

§ LORD HEMINGFORD moved, in paragraph 87 (1), to leave out "an exceptional shortage of rain" and to insert "drought or other cause." The noble Lord said: The words I propose are perhaps a little wider than those in the Bill, but really the Amendment is nothing more than drafting.

§ Amendment moved— Page 62, lines 31 and 32, leave out (" an exceptional shortage of rain ") and insert (" drought or other cause ").—(Lord Hemingford.)

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
I accept this Amendment.

§ LORD ADDISON
I should like to ask, what does "other cause" mean? It is an Act of Parliament we are drafting. I can understand "drought" meaning something and I can understand "absence of rain" meaning something, but what does "other cause" mean? It might mean anything. Really the noble Earl is exceptionally rash in accepting this Amendment. I do not want to make trouble by opposing it, but I cannot think the Parliamentary draftsman advised him to accept.

§ LORD HEMINGFORD
I would suggest to the noble Lord that "drought" is something that cannot be 136 caused by him or by me or by any of us whatever may be the technical or scientific cause. The Amendment means drought or something similar to it.

§ LORD ADDISON
I am not cavilling about the word "drought." I do not think there is much difference between that and absence of rain. What I am wondering is what "other cause" means. That phrase might mean anything. It might be a leakage in the reservoir or a burst pipe or any one of a dozen things.

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
I think the Amendment has a common-sense meaning and my noble friend has in fact indicated the very reason in his speech. It does provide for a burst pipe or a leaking reservoir. Similar words are to be found in other special Acts dealing with waterworks and I see no reason why I should not accept the Amendment.

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
There are two drafting Amendments in later paragraphs. I beg to move.

§ Amendments moved—

§ Page 62, line 43, leave out (" penalty ") and insert (" fine")

§ Page 63, line 3, leave out (" the ").—(The Earl of Munster.)

§ On Question, Amendments agreed to.

§ First Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

§ Second and Third Schedules agreed to.