§ LORD STRABOLGI rose to ask His Majesty's Government whether they could state the reasons for the falling off in the supply of foodstuffs to this country from Eire and the diminution in Anglo-Irish trade generally; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, in asking the question I have on, the Paper it is necessary for me to cite one or two figures to show that there has been, and is continuing to be, a very serious fall in imports into this country of foodstuffs and other goods from Eire and, of course, of exports from this country to Eire. The last figures which have appeared in the British Press show that for May of this year the imports into Eire from the United Kingdom were down by £660,000 compared with May of last year, and exports from Eire to this country have fallen by £208,000. If we take the whole trade between the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland and Eire we find that the figures are very startling indeed. The last normal period of Anglo-Irish trade was the five-year period from 1926 to 1930. After 1931 came the world slump, and in 1932 there began, lasting till 1938, the unfortunate economic war between ourselves and Eire. Therefore the last normal year really was 1930.
§ The yearly average of the exports of foodstuffs from Eire to this country for the five years was £38,433,000. That is food, drink, live cattle, everything in the Board of Trade category. In 1939 the figures were £24,044,135; in 1940, £29,322,000; in 1941, £28,015,000; in 1942, £29,747,000. These are only round figures and the rising prices conceal the real fall. The volume of quantities which came in show a far greater reduction. If those figures I have just troubled your Lordships with are reduced to the 1930 prices that gives the approximate volume of foodstuffs coming in as follows: The round figures are £25,000,000 for 1939, £23,000,000 for 1940, £19,000,000 for 1941 and £18,051,000 for 1942. Therefore in 1942, the last complete year, the volume of foodstuffs of all kinds that we imported from Eire as compared with the normal year 1930 was as 18 to 36. That is a fall to a half in time of war when we need foodstuffs here, and I presume would prefer to get them from the nearest market.
§ I suggest that that discloses a very serious state of things indeed. There 430 must be some explanation for it. If I might trouble your Lordships with one more figure I will do so. These figures are taken from the Irish Trade Journal Statistical Bulletin issued by the Government of Eire, and the volume I have is dated March of this year. The average monthly volume of imports into Eire (exports from this country) for the last three years—that is at 1930 prices—were £3,800,000 in 1940; £1,570,000 in 1941, £1,530,000 in 1942. That is the reduction in the volume of imports to Ireland from this country reduced to the 1930 prices, and it discloses a very serious state of things indeed. Practically everything that Eire exports comes here or goes to Northern Ireland. The volume of exports has fallen between 1940 and 1942 from 2.22 to 1.65. That is expressed, of course, in millions of pounds and is the average monthly figure. That is a very catastrophic fall and a very serious thing indeed, and I suggest that some explanation should be forthcoming.
§ I want to be as fair as I can to His Majesty's Government. I find it necessary sometimes to curb my admiration for the present advisers of His Majesty, but I do not think they could be so foolish as deliberately, for no sound reason, to discourage the import into this country of foodstuffs and other articles that we can use from Ireland. I acquit them of that. In other words I acquit them of allowing themselves to be influenced by the fact that Eire is neutral and for that reason unpopular in this country—or the Government may say they are unpopular and they do not care to take special steps to increase trade. I acquit them of allowing that reason to stand in the way of our own interest during a time of war. Not only would it be foolish; it would be criminal to do so. If we could to-day get food from Denmark or Holland of course we would do so. If Lord Woolton, by smuggling, could get food from Germany to-day he would do it with the support of the Minister of Economic Warfare. Deliberately to refuse to take foodstuffs; from Ireland without some solid reason is unthinkable. If Lord Woolton could extract foodstuffs from Germany by any means, say through a fifth column, he would jump at the opportunity, or at the opportunity of obtaining it from any other of the countries in Europe. 431 Conversely—I am stating the case in an exaggerated way—if the Germans today could get food from Eire, of course, they would be delighted to get it, if it could be smuggled out; or if they could get food from this country they would take that, too. If the Germans could loot Lord Woolton's reserves of foodstuffs here they would be only too glad to do so.
§ LORD JESSELSO would you.
LORD STRABOLGII do not understand the interruption, but perhaps my noble friend thinks it right to make a joke. But I would not do so. I am very well satisfied with the rations and I would not touch the reserves of my noble friend Lord Woolton, not even his secret store of oranges. I refute the suggestion.
May I draw attention to one of the curious results of the present falling-off of trade between the two countries? The Australians are rationing themselves in butter in order to send butter to us, 10,000 miles by ship, whereas in Ireland, 70 miles away, there is a surplus. The noble Lord, Lord Templemore, shakes his head, but I have figures here in the official statistical publication. If we had guaranteed the same price to the Irish farmer for butter and other dairy products as we guaranteed to the British farmer there would be far more forthcoming, so I am advised. If there is another explanation I would be very glad to have it. This brings me to the accusation which I think really does lie against His Majesty's present advisers. Although I acquit them of allowing political considerations to stand in the way of British interests, I do not think they have been enterprising enough in encouraging the production of Irish foodstuffs and other goods. If a long-term policy had been followed of encouraging the Irish farmers to produce more for the British market, we could have had more foodstuffs from Ireland. I think there has been a lack of foresight or a lack of enterprise in not doing so. That would have meant, no doubt, guaranteeing a similar price to that guaranteed to English farmers. It was not done, and apparently it has not paid people in Ireland to produce more than a certain amount over and above their own requirements. I suggest that our policy has been shortsighted and mistaken. So much for foodstuffs.
432 Beyond that I believe the contribution of Irish industries to the war effort might have been greater. In the period of the economic conflict between the two countries, from 1932 to 1938, the measures taken to stimulate industry in Ireland resulted in the setting up of new industries which I believe could have been drawn upon during this war. Three cases I have in mind are cement, boots and shoes and textiles. In those industries, I believe, we could have drawn much more upon Irish industry than we have done. Before this debate a noble friend of mine assured me that he is aware of cases where machinery in this country which cannot be used because of the shortage of labour could be sent over to Ireland where there is ample labour available, but the Government will not allow it to go. That machinery could produce goods which would help us. I realize that the Government are in a difficulty in another direction, because we cannot trade without exchange and we would have to give the Irish a good deal in return, and probably give things which are in short supply here such as tea, coal and petrol. That may be the explanation but I think the difficulty could be got over.
The Government may say that they are innocent of allowing political prejudice to stand in the way, but that at the same time they do not feel called upon to go out of their way to encourage this trade because of Irish neutrality. They may say that—I do not know—but I want to say immediately that those who, like myself, stood by Ireland in the dark days and tried to heal the breach between the two countries are those who feel the most bitter disappointment about Ireland's neutrality. We deplore that so gallant and gifted a race should stand aside from the fight against barbarism and for the preservation of civilization and humanity which we are now waging. But when that is said, and I say it with complete sincerity, we must take a rather longer view. Part of the blame for the unfortunate state of affairs existing between Eire and the United Nations, because of the neutrality of Eire's Government, rests on our own fathers and grandfathers; and our children, I suppose, will blame us for losing India's friendship unless there is an eleventh-hour miracle.
However much we regret the neutrality of Eire, may I remind your Lordships 433 that there is another side to the picture? Many thousands of Eire citizens, men and women, are working in our war industry here. I have seen the number placed as high as 350,000. More than that, there are many thousands of Irishmen normally resident in Eire who are serving in His Majesty's Forces. Their number I have seen stated in another place as high as 300,000. Whatever the figure may be, it is a very great contribution in fighting men. I am perfectly certain that none of the leaders of our Armed Forces would refuse more manpower, more fighting men, from Ireland. One place in which one sees many Irish names is the casualty list and another is the list of decorations for valour. I presume His Majesty's Government particularly welcome all the man-power and the fighting men from Ireland that they can obtain. If that is the case, why stop at men? Why not get the goods if they can be obtained? I would appeal to the members of the Government in your Lordships' House, who have such great influence, to think also of the future. One day the old quarrel between the British and the Irish will be healed. We have got to think of the settlement after the war. We do not want to have more enemies than we can help. We want Ireland to play her part in the future system of collective security to which we are committed. I do not want to enlarge upon that now. I am dealing with the realistic policy, as I consider it, of drawing the utmost sustenance and necessities from the nearest country to us which is not in the war, and I hope that we can in the future decide on a more realistic policy with regard to Eire so that we may take whatever help this near neighbour can offer to us.
§ LORD TEMPLEMOREMy Lords, the noble Lord has raised an interesting question which I will endeavour to answer to the best of my ability. I am very glad that the noble Lord, although he expressed, shall I say, only a qualified admiration for His Majesty's Government, at all events did acquit us of approaching this question with any political bias. May I before I go further echo the sentiments of the noble Lord about those gallant Irishmen who are serving now in the Forces of the Crown? Everybody rejoices in the deeds of the Royal Navy, the Army and the Air Force in which thousands of men from Ireland are serv- 434 ing. We cannot be otherwise than deeply grateful to them all. We remember with gratitude also those who are helping to make munitions. I should like to say that at the outset.
It is, of course, true that there has in general been a substantial falling off since the outbreak of war in imports of foodstuffs from Eire into the United Kingdom, but the contention of the Government is that this reduction has been due to factors outside their control. His Majesty's Government, I can assure the House, have placed no obstacles whatever in the way of the importation of foodstuffs from Eire. On the contrary, they are very ready to take from Eire as large a volume of foodstuffs as it is possible to secure, and although the foodstuffs that we can obtain from that country are only a very small proportion of what we consume, they nevertheless form a very useful addition to our foodstuffs and one which does not impose any substantial drain on our shipping.
The reason for the falling off in imports of food from Eire is perfectly simple. The agriculture of Eire has been placed by the war in a very similar position to that of our own country. In this regard, I may say that I am very glad to see here to-day several noble Lords who are closely connected with Eire, among them my noble friends the Earl of Donoughmore, the Earl of Iveagh and Lord Rossmore. They will, I am sure, bear me out in this. The position of agriculture in Eire is, as I have said, very similar to that of this country. In the case of the owners of demesnes, and in the case of farmers, we have been ordered to plough up sometimes very good grassland, to an amount rather over 50 per cent. in all, I believe. The consequence is that the increase in arable acreage, and the shortage of foodstuffs resulting from the shipping stringency, have inevitably brought about a decrease in the amount of cattle and a reduction in the output of live-stock products generally. This is the primary reason why imports of foodstuffs from Eire—which before the war consisted for the most part of livestock products, such as live cattle, butter, bacon and eggs and poultry—have declined very seriously.
The noble Lord has also called attention to the diminution in our trade with Eire generally. As I have already said, our imports from that country consist, for the most part, of foodstuffs, and I need 435 not add to what I have already said on that subject. As regards our export trade with Eire, there is no mystery at all about the decline in the volume of our exports. In fact, I think there would be rather a mystery had they not declined during the course of the war. The growing need for concentrating our resources of man-power and materials on the war—or, in other words, of putting first things first—has inevitably involved a diminution of our exports of goods required for civilian use to all destinations, just as it has involved drastic cuts in the supplies of such goods to our consumers at home. For this reason our export trade to Eire has necessarily been diminished with, of course, a consequential reduction in the supplies available to that country.
At the end of his speech the noble Lord raised, as I thought that he probably might, a question about prices. I think he rather suggested that we have not been generous enough to the farmers of Eire and that we ought to give them the same prices as the farmers in this country receive. That is not the view of His Majesty's Government. We have no evidence that the prices paid for Eire produce had any limiting effect on the imports from that country. The Government have been prepared to pay a remunerative price for Eire produce in order to get essential supplies, provided they have been assured that the increased prices would, in fact, result in increased supplies, and, as a matter of fact, Eire has shared in the general increase in prices paid for imported foods which have necessarily taken place in order to meet increased war-time costs. It will, however, be appreciated, I think, that we cannot consider Eire prices in isolation. They must be considered in relation to prices paid by us for imported produce generally, and we should not be justified in singling out Eire for more favourable treatment than any of our other Dominions.
I have answered my noble friend to the best of my ability, and I hope he will appreciate that, with the best will in the world towards Eire—I think we all wish well to that country; in fact I am sure we do in spite of the fact that some of us possibly disagree with the attitude of her Government—one must realize, as Eire herself realizes, for her public men have said so more than once, 436 that she cannot expect to be insulated from the impact of total war on all countries in the world, whether or not they are active participants.
LORD STRABOLGIMy Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord for his reply and especially for the sentences in which he made it quite clear that he shares the feeling of gratitude towards those Irish people who have given voluntary help to our cause. For the general tone of his reply I am most grateful. If I may, I would like to study his reply with the attention it deserves; but may I just refer now to one matter—the question of butter? I understood the noble Lord to indicate that there was not a great surplus of butter. The figures which I have here show that the production of butter has fallen only very slightly in Ireland.
§ LORD TEMPLEMOREMy Lords, if I may interrupt my noble friend for a moment, may I say that when I referred to this I was not keeping exactly to the book but speaking rather from my own experience when I was in Ireland last May? Then it was exceedingly difficult to get a pat of butter in Dublin. I did manage to get a little in the country. Now I know for a fact that it is severely rationed.
LORD STRABOLGIThe actual figures have been given and they show a very slight reduction over the last three years in the average production of butter. I hope very much, therefore that Lord Woolton has got it. If that were not so I should think that the figures would be very much worse. In the circumstances, having regard to the reply which the noble Lord has given, I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
§ Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.