§ THE DUKE OF MONTROSE had given Notice that he would call attention, in view of the gravity of the national food position, to the unsatisfactory nature of the reply of the Under-Secretary of the Ministry of Agriculture to questions asked on October 1, 1942, regarding the apple-growing business called Copo, Limited, of Cockayne, Hatley, Bedfordshire; and move for Papers. The noble Duke said: My Lords, this Motion concerns a company called Copo, Ltd., and it is a long cry from producer gas to this subject. Nevertheless, this is a subject, I submit, which deserves some consideration. First of all I should explain what the meaning of the word "Copo" is. It has to do with orchards producing certain apples. I am not going to trouble your Lordships about how I came to be connected with it, but I should like to explain that the undertaking was first started in about the year 1933 with the idea of providing work for ex-Service men on a co-operative basis. But that part of the scheme seems to have faded out, and it is now a purely commercial apple-growing business, managed on somewhat unusual lines. I say unusual lines because the trees in the orchards are owned and are the property, I believe, of several thousands of tree owners. The trees are planted on land which is owned by a trust company, and the trees are managed by a private commercial firm called Copo, Ltd. There are, therefore, three parties concerned with the same trees.
§ Some of the thousands of tree holders approached me to give them information upon certain matters, and I thought the best thing to do was to ask a question of my noble friend the Under-Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture. I was very disappointed with his reply. I asked him eight questions last October, and I got an answer to one and a half, leaving six and a half questions quite unanswered. What I wanted to know was how many tree holders there are in Copo. I have heard various figures given, from 4,000 to 15,000. There are 2,000,000 trees in the orchards, so that it is a fairly large con- 915 cern. I was anxious to know what was the tonnage of the produce from these 2,000,000 trees. I was anxious to know what was the money received for all the apples. The noble Duke told me he was unable to inform me. Subsequently, I gather, the Land Commissioner for the Ministry of Agriculture went down and inspected the orchards and was more or less satisfied with the land and probably with the trees too. The tree owners are anxious because, being interested in something like 1,200 acres of orchard, they want to comply with the appeal of the Minister of Agriculture that every acre of land shall be put to the most productive use possible. They want to know whether those 1,200 acres and those 2,000,000 apple trees are being managed so as to produce all the fruit possible for the people in these days.
§ I asked the noble Duke whether the agricultural executive committees of Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire had inspected the orchards. I understand they have, but I am informed by the noble Duke that the reports of the county committees are confidential. The tree owners, on their part, obtained an order from the Court and two orchardists went down to the estate. Their report was anything but favourable. Their report was that the whole lay-out of the orchard was wrong; that the trees had been grafted on to the wrong stock, No. 9 stock, a very poor stock indeed; that the orchards were diseased with red spider and caterpillar; that the state of the grass round the trees was shocking, and that owing to perennial weeds and twitch grass, more than half the crop would be lost. I went myself to see the orchards and I was amazed at the number of trees I found lying on the ground. How could the agricultural executive committees report satisfactorily on orchards in that state? There must be something wrong somewhere. We should like to know what is the true state of these orchards because the tree owners who own these 2,000,000 trees are most anxious to respond to the appeal of the Minister of Agriculture that every acre of land in which they are interested shall be cultivated in such a way as to produce the maximum amount of food.
§ I would like to suggest that a conference should be held between the Land Commissioner at the Ministry, representa- 916 tives of the agricultural executive committees, the expert orchardists who visited the orchards and some experienced agriculturists representing the tree owners; that this conference should be held at the Ministry of Agriculture, and the whole question thrashed out as to whether these orchards are being properly managed If they are not, then the wrong should be righted. I believe that one-third of the land, 400 acres, is absolutely lying to waste. The proper course would be for the agricultural executive committees to order the land to be grubbed up, to be ploughed and harrowed and a proper tilth obtained, and the land sown with a cleaning crop such as potatoes or cereals. That should be done now. The season is getting on and land should be cultivated without a moment's delay if a crop is to be obtained this year. From these 400 acres you could get over 3,000 tons of potatoes, or over 2,000 tons of wheat. What the tree owners wish is to comply with the Minister's appeal and have the land properly cultivated. I beg to move for Papers.
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (THE DUKE OF NORFOLK)My Lords, the noble Duke has raised this Motion consequent on the answers which I gave to his questions last October. I must make it quite clear that of the eight questions which he put to roe six were quite definitely concerned with the domestic side of a private company which had nothing whatsoever to do with my Department. It was for that reason I was unable to give him the answers he wished. I should also like to make it clear at the outset of the few remarks I have to make, that I can only deal with the agricultural side of this matter. The land belonging to Copo is situated partly in Hertfordshire and partly in Bedfordshire. The trees in these orchards are all Cox's orange pippins except for a few cordon and pyramid trees which are planted purely for pollination. This is a very large orchard and a very large commercial enterprise. These shapes of trees were planted because a very large number of them may be planted to the acre. The form and the shape of planting is one which is not popular with commercial undertakings, though it is popular in private gardens. It is true to say that the layout of these orchards is unusual for this type of undertaking and is not found 917 in other parts of this country. Further, it is doubtful whether many people would select the county of Bedfordshire for the planting of orchards.
However, since the noble Duke raised this question in October I have had further inquiries made, and I would tell him that half the area in Hertfordshire is now under trees, that the orchards are being run with the minimum amount of labour, and that most of that labour is provided by women. The yield of fruit last year was considered by the Hertfordshire agricultural committee to be reasonably satisfactory, though in certain small areas there was room for improvement and certain orders for grubbing up have been given. The committee have no serious ground for any criticism of the condition of the open land, but they are serving such directions for the cultivation of the open land as they consider necessary. As regards the orchards in Bedfordshire, the greater portion are fairly well managed. A certain proportion of the trees have died, however, and certain of the land is still insufficiently drained. I am confident that the various steps necessary to make for further production will be taken by the two county committees. The land has been sampled and though there is some shortage of potash and phosphate there is no serious deficiency. The noble Duke has also asked whether the horticultural experts who were sent down to make this report were competent to carry out this job. I have no hesitation in saying that they are perfectly competent to carry out the jobs which are entrusted to them by the Ministry. I have made inquiries as to the farm manager. He has been there, as far as I can make out, just over one year and he is a man particularly well qualified for this job. Taking the land as a whole we have, at my Department, no serious criticisms to make, and the committees in the two counties will keep a close eye on the further cropping of the open land and the management of the trees.
THE DUKE OF MONTROSEMy Lords, I am very much obliged to the noble Duke for the information that he has given on the subject of Copo. I am sure he will appreciate the view which is taken by the public all over the country. At the instance of agricultural executive committees poor farmers, small farmers, who have had their homes on their farms 918 for years and years, are being asked to leave on the ground that they have managed their places inefficiently. Now Copo is a company which is said to have a capital of something like £750,000 or so, and people ask why it is that a poor farmer who has lived on his place for years is told to remove while a wealthy corporation like this is allowed to stay on and carry on with the land in this way. I am quite sure that people are expecting wealthy farmers, whether companies or individuals, to deal with their land efficiently and as well as they can so as to set an example to their poorer and humbler neighbours.
I thank the noble Duke for the report which he has given, but I have been long enough in this House—getting on for nineteen years—to have seen successive Ministers and Under-Secretaries dealing with agricultural scandals. There was the mushroom scandal at one time; that was exposed in your Lordships' House. There was the asparagus scandal and that, too, was exposed in your Lordships' House. Now we have come to the matter of apples. I am sure that we can look to the noble Duke to deal with anything that may be wrong. Of course I am not saying that there is anything wrong; I am only asking for information. But if there is anything wrong, we hope the Minister of Agriculture will deal with it with the same courage and ability that have been displayed in dealing with scandals in the past. In the circumstances I beg to ask leave to withdraw my Motion.
§ Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.