Lords Sitting of 20 April 1943

Preamble
The House met, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
The Lord Luke—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.

RINGING OF CHURCH BELLS.
LORD DENMAN: My Lords, I desire to ask the noble Viscount the Leader of the House a question of which I have given him private notice—namely, whether His Majesty's Government have any statement to make on the subject of the ringing of church bells.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (VISCOUNT CRANBORNE): My Lords, the War Cabinet, after receiving the advice of the Chiefs of Staff, have reviewed this question in the light of changing circumstances. They have reached the conclusion that the existing orders on the subject can now be relaxed and that the church bells should be rung on Sundays and other special days in the ordinary manner to summon worshippers to church. This new arrangement will be brought into effect in time for the Easter celebrations this year.
THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON: My Lords, you will remember that the most reverend Prelate the Archbishop of York raised this matter a week or two ago in a very forcible speech in this House. I am sure that he would wish me on his behalf to express—what he would have said himself if he could have been here—his great appreciation of the statement that has just been made. That appreciation and gratitude will be shared, I am quite sure, by many people up and down the country. It would be a fatal consequence if it were supposed that there could be any relaxation of precautions, but the most reverend Prelate's point was that this could be done without any relaxation of any precaution. The use of church bells as warnings will remain unimpeded, but I am sure we shall all deeply appreciate the possibility that once more we can be summoned to divine service throughout the country by the ringing of bells.

NURSES BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Snell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[The EARL OF ONSLOW in the Chair.]
Clause 1 agreed to.
Clause 2:
Rules.
2.—(1) The Council shall make rules for the following purposes—
(d) for prescribing the causes for which, the conditions under which and the manner in which persons may be removed from the roll, the procedure for the restoration to the roll of persons who have been removed therefrom, and the fee to be payable on such restoration;
THE LORD CHAIRMAN: My noble friend Lord Bertie of Thame, on this and a number of other clauses, has handed me in a long list of manuscript Amendments which, as he observed to me, look very formidable, but I understand that they are not. I have not had time to read them, but he will be able to explain to your Lordships on the first Amendment more or less what they portend.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in subsection (1) (d), after "removed," to insert "or suspended." The noble Viscount said: I cannot call this Amendment consequential; the best term, perhaps, is "precursory". If your Lordships turn to page 6 of the Bill you will see the following provision:
"(3) Any such application may be refused, and any such licence which has been granted may be revoked, on any of the following grounds, that is to say—

(a) that the applicant or, as the case may be, the holder of the licence is an individual under the age of twenty-one years or is unsuitable to hold such a licence;

(b) that the premises are unsuitable;…"

If the holder of the licence is under twenty-one that can easily be remedied in course of time. With regard to the case of unsuitable premises, these can be made suitable. If the licence is revoked that will carry a certain amount of stigma on the holder of the licence, and I think suspension would be a sufficient punishment, as is provided in other Acts of Parliament. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line a, after ("removed") insert ("or suspended").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
LORD SNELL: I am sorry that the Amendment cannot be accepted. The wording of paragraph (d) of Clause 2 follows almost exactly the wording of the corresponding provision in the principal Act. There is no provision in the principal Act for suspension, nor is such provision considered necessary. The powers given by the Bill are adequate for all practical purposes. Suspension is presumably nothing but temporary removal from the roll. If a nurse is removed from the roll under the general provisions it will be open to her to apply subsequently for restoration. For less serious cases it would be open to the Assistant Nurses Committee to defer a particular case and review it again after a specified period of six months or one year in the light of the nurse's subsequent behaviour. In such cases the nurse would remain on the roll, but would be, as it were, on probation until her case was reviewed again. This course may be taken in disciplinary cases under the principal Act. I am therefore sorry I cannot accept the Amendment.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: It is no ill conduct on the part of a nurse to be under twenty-one years of age, nor for premises to be unsuitable if the holder of the licence is prepared to take others in place of them. In view of the position the noble Lord has seen fit to take up, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 2 agreed to.
Clauses 3 to 7 agreed to.
Clause 8:
Licensing of agencies.
(5) Where—

(a) an application is made under this Part of this Act for the grant of a licence in respect of an agency in respect of which a licence is in force at the time of the application, and objections have been taken to the grant of the licence; or

(b) it is proposed to revoke a licence under this Part of this Act,

notice in writing shall, at least seven days before the question of the granting or revocation is considered, be given to the holder of the licence, and, if within three days after the receipt of that notice the holder requires to be heard, the application shall not be refused or the licence revoked unless the authority
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have afforded to him an opportunity of being heard; and any notice given under this subsection shall state the objections to the granting of the licence or the grounds on which the revocation is proposed and shall notify the holder of his right of being heard under this subsection and of his rights under the last preceding subsection.
LORD HEMINGFORD LORD HEMINGFORD moved to leave out subsection (5) and insert:
"(5) An application under this Part of this Act for the grant of a licence in respect of an agency in respect of which a licence is in force at the time of the application shall not be refused and a licence under this Part of this Act shall not be revoked by a licensing authority unless the holder has been given an opportunity of being heard by the licensing authority or a committee thereof."
The noble Lord said: This is a very simple Amendment. This Part of the Bill deals with the registration of nurses' agencies. The object of subsection (5) is that an applicant for registration or for a licence shall not be refused, or the holder of a licence shall not have that licence revoked, without having an opportunity of being heard beforehand. The original subsection contains a number of rather complicated provisions with regard to the giving of notices within a certain time and that kind of thing, which seem to be quite unnecessary. The subsection which I am proposing in place of it merely states in the shortest possible form that an applicant for the grant of a licence to an agency, or the holder in the case of premises in respect of which a licence already exists, shall not be refused or the licence revoked unless the applicant or holder has been given an opportunity of being heard by the licensing authority or a committee thereof. I understand that the proposed new subsection meets with the approval of the Ministry concerned. I hope it will conduce to the smooth working of a very useful Part of the Bill and that the Government will be prepared to accept it.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 37, leave out subsection (5) and insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Hemingford.)
LORD SNELL: I am able to accept the Amendment moved by the noble Lord on the ground that it is shorter than the original subsection, and also that it contains the essence of what is required.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 8, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 9:
Enforcement.
9.—(1) It shall be the duty of the licensing authority to enforce the provisions of this Part of this Act.
(2) Any registered nurse or other officer duly authorized in that behalf by the licensing authority may at all reasonable times—

(a) enter the premises specified in any licence or application under this Part of this Act or any premises which are used, or which that officer has reasonable cause to believe are used, for the purposes of or in connexion with an agency for the supply of nurses; and

(b) inspect those premises and the records kept in connexion with any such agency as aforesaid carried on at those premises,

and no person shall obstruct any such officer in the execution of his duty.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in subsection (2), after "times," to insert "upon production of his authority, if so required." The noble Viscount said: It is quite a common form that a person who enters premises to inspect them should not be able to so do except on production of his authority, if so required. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 28, at end insert ("upon production of his authority, if so required").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
LORD SNELL: I am able to accept the Amendment of the noble Viscount if he will agree to different words; for instance, "on producing, if so required, some duly authenticated document showing his authority."
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: I can consider myself fortunate perhaps in having got some crumb of comfort from the noble Lord in charge of the Bill. I am much obliged to him. I will therefore, with the leave of the Committee, withdraw my Amendment in order to move it in the new form suggested.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: I now move the insertion of the words suggested by the noble Lord.
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 28, at end insert ("on producing, if so required, some duly authenticated document showing his authority").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 9, as amended, agreed to
Clauses 10 to 14 agreed to.
LORD HORDER LORD HORDER moved, after Clause 14, to insert the following clause:
Penalty for false representation that another is a registered or enrolled nurse.
"Any person who, knowing that some other person is not registered or enrolled, makes any statement or does any act calculated to suggest that that other person is registered or enrolled shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding, in the case of a first offence, ten pounds, and, in the case of a second or any subsequent offence, fifty pounds."
The noble Lord said: I rise to propose the Amendment which stands in my name. When this Bill was at its Second Reading stage I drew your Lordships' attention to the fact that the Minister of Health, although he was to be congratulated, I thought, on producing this Bill, did not go to the length of closing the nursing profession to men and women who were not either registered or enrolled. A Committee over which I had the honour to preside, the Nurses Reconstruction Committee, thought that it was in the interests of the public and in the interests of the profession of nursing that it should be a closed profession. My right honourable friend was not able to go to that length. The purpose of this Amendment is to tighten up, if I may so express it, the position to some extent and save the public from exploitation by so-called alleged nurses who are neither possessed of the State Register Certificate nor enrolled as assistant nurses.
The position briefly is this. Under the Bill as it stands a woman who, not being a State registered nurse or an enrolled assistant nurse, represents herself as such commits an offence under Clause 6 (1). Further, an agency for the supply of nurses which deals with unqualified women or sends out a nurse or assistant nurse without at the same time sending the patient a proper description of her qualifications also commits an offence under Clause 7. But it is not an offence under the Bill as at present drafted for a third person, not the nurse herself or an agency, to represent a woman falsely as having such qualifications. In some cases no doubt such a person might be convicted under the law as receiving money under false pretences; but what we have in mind is to make it an offence for any third person to dress up a nurse and exploit the public in that way. An Amendment of this kind was in actual

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fact proposed in another place by Mr. Storey, but I understand that the form of Mr. Storey's Amendment was not acceptable and I am hoping that the form in which this Amendment is now moved by myself will be acceptable to the noble Lord in charge of this Bill.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 14 insert the said new clause.—(Lord Horder.)
LORD SNELL: As the noble Lord, Lord Horder, has explained, this Amendment may be taken as being a substitute for one moved in another place which was rejected because the wording of it was considered unacceptable. The Amendment is designed to fill a small gap in the provisions of the Bill. Under the Bill as it stands a woman who is not a State registered nurse or an enrolled assistant nurse commits an offence if she represents herself as such. Further, an agency for the supply of nurses which deals with unqualified women or sends out a nurse or assistant nurse without informing the patient of her qualifications commits an Offence under Clause 7. But it is no offence under the Bill as it stands for some third person to represent a woman falsely as having qualifications. In some cases it might be dealt with under the general law for attempting to obtain money under false pretences, but there may be cases in which it would be difficult to prove this direct financial motive. The sort of case, for instance, in which it might be difficult to prove an offence would be the case in which the management of a less reputable nursing home dressed up unqualified girls to look like qualified nurses and represented them as such. The Amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Horder, is aimed to meet these points and I have great pleasure in accepting it.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
Schedules agreed to.

ARMY AND AIR FORCE (ANNUAL) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.
WAR DAMAGE BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3 (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.

NATIONAL LOANS BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT SIMON): My Lords, I beg to move the Second Reading of this Bill and I can do so sufficiently, I think, in a couple of sentences. The object of the Bill is to renew for this financial year the borrowing powers originally conferred on the Treasury by the National Loans Act, 1939, and last renewed for the year 1942–3 by the National Loans Act, 1942. The Bill is a matter of some urgency.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Bill read 2, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

SECOND FRONT IN EUROPE.
LORD BEAVERBROOK LORD BEAVERBROOK had given Notice that he would call the attention of His Majesty's Government to the opportunity offered by the successful progress of the campaign in Tunisia for compelling the enemy forthwith to fight on a second front in Europe; and move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I do not propose to go on with the Motion standing in my name.

STANDING ORDERS.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been complied with:
Sunderland Corporation.
The same was ordered to lie on the Table.

CARDIFF CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
Report from the Committee of Selection that the following Lords be proposed to the House to form the Select Committee for the consideration of the said Bill—namely:

L. Boyle (E. Cork and Orrery),

L. O'Hagan,

L. Barnby,

L. Belstead (Chairman).

L. Nathan:

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Agreed to, and the said Lords appointed accordingly. All Petitions referred to the Committee, with leave to the Petitioners praying to be heard by counsel against the Bill to be heard as desired, as also counsel for the Bill.