HL Deb 20 October 1942 vol 124 cc662-8

Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

My Lords, this is a Bill which also comes to us from the House of Commons and it contains an interesting provision with which I hope the House will have full sympathy. It is a provision that in the Courts of Wales, which for this purpose includes Monmouthshire, any party or any witness may claim the right to speak in the Welsh language. There are supplementary provisions for interpretation, which, of course, are necessary. I call your Lordships' attention to the fact that this Bill confers this facility as a right. There may be some who might think it more reasonable to have said that the Court or the judge should decide whether, in a given case, the individual really needed this facility. We have thought it better to go further. I would ask your Lordships special attention to this fact. It does not at all follow, because a man or a woman can use a language like English with apparent facility for social purposes or other purposes, that if that person's natural language is not English—is Welsh—it would be fair to expect the use of English by that individual in a court of law. It may be very easy at the beginning of the examination of a witness. In my experience the first few questions are nearly always answered correctly—"What is your name?" "Where do you live?" "What is your occupation?" It is seldom that the witness goes wrong in answering that sort of question; but when we come to more precise matters, whether in examination or cross-examination, it is a great thing to be entitled to use your native tongue.

I fancy that though this House includes many members accomplished in modern foreign languages, it would be found, if some of your Lordships were giving evidence in a foreign court of law, no matter how accomplished you were in that tongue, you would prefer none the less to use your own. This is the claim that is made, and it is a claim with which I entirely sympathize. I believe it is right that we should make this provision, and thereby remove what is beyond all question a real sense of grievance. How far the existing situation has led to more than a sense of grievance I shall not discuss, because I am sure there has been a general effort made to see that the administration of the law in Wales should not be surrounded by difficulties in the matter of language. None the less, it is an obstacle to the proper conduct of justice that people in any area should honestly feel a sense of grievance, and it is the earnest desire of the Government to remove that grievance once and for all.

The other provision of the Bill has a curious and archaic appearance. It is the repeal of a section of a particular Statute of King Henry VIII. It is remarkable that though King Henry VIII belonged to the only dynasty which was definitely Welsh in our history, he none the less succeeded—or Parliament did in his time—in legislating in terms which are regarded by many Welshmen as extremely offensive. There is no question that the vigorous language of the Tudors is hardly what one expects in the modern Statute Book, and would be entirely contrary to the traditions of your Lordships' House. We propose, therefore, to repeal this section outright, and thereby to remove a sense of grievance which has been genuinely entertained by many in Wales. The provision as to interpreters will be seen on the face of the Bill. It is manifestly wrong to require the individual to pay for the interpreter. That will be one of the charges—comparatively small in these cases—which will fall on the Exchequer. I beg to move.

Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)

LORD CLWYD

My Lords, in view of the position in which we stand in our discussions this afternoon, I shall condense into a few sentences what I have to say in reference to this Bill. But the House will understand that I have some special interest in the matter. I am one of the few Welsh-speaking members of this House. I have had a long experience of Parliamentary life in both Houses, and I should like to say that the question which is dealt with in this Bill has had a large place in the mind of Wales for many years. Further, I happen to have had the honour for many years of being Chairman of the bench of magistrates in my division, and I have, therefore, a close knowledge of the situation which this Bill is designed to remedy. I fully concur in what the Lord Chancellor has said in reference to the difficulty and the injustice involved in the ban upon the Welsh language in giving evidence. It is perfectly true that most Welsh-speaking witnesses are able to speak on ordinary topics of the day in English, but that is a very different matter from giving evidence in a court of law in English. I need not pursue that matter because it is a wrong that is to be put right by this Bill.

I should, however, like before I sit down to say how glad I was to hear the Home Secretary, when he moved the Second Reading of the Bill in another place, state that in his opinion the prohibition of the Welsh language in the Courts in Wales was offensive to national sentiment. I quite understand there may be a number of members of this House who have not had a full opportunity of understanding Wales, but no one can understand Wales unless he recognizes that the Welsh language to the people of Wales is a matter of supreme importance, and is a matter which they consider essential to the development of the best national characteristics. I do not intend to delay this debate by any further remarks except to say again that, in my view, this is a measure of reform which is considerably overdue, and which is appreciated by the people of Wales. I hope also that it will be remembered in connexion with the larger issue which lies behind this Bill—the question of nationality. I hope that we shall in future, in regard to the development of nationality, either in Wales or elsewhere, keep our eyes upon the wider significance of nationality, as we must do if we are to face the future with any degree of success. I am of opinion that Wales can and will play a not unimportant part in that achievement—the achievement of bringing into the life of the future in connexion with nationality, not only the development of its own interests, but the making of a contribution to the service and stability of international interests as well. I desire to thank the Government for bringing in this Bill at this time particularly, a time of considerable difficulty, and for giving the necessary facilities for passing it into law.

VISCOUNT SANKEY

My Lords, although this Bill had a rapid and unopposed passage in another place, and although it will doubtless receive the same treatment in this House, will you permit me who, as a junior counsel on the South Wales circuit, practised in the local Welsh Courts, and who, as one of His Majesty's Judges of Assize, has presided at Assizes in every Welsh county, to join in the chorus of congratulation and thanks to the Lord Chancellor and the Government for reform of a system which has for too long created a feeling of soreness and injustice amongst Welshmen and those who sympathize with them? I do so for two short reasons. First, this Bill is right and just. Do not, my Lords, imagine that Welsh is a dead language, that it is an object for scholars only, to be acquired by the laborious use of dictionary and grammar or by the easier aid of books with the Welsh on one side and the English on the other. It is a living language spoken by thousands of Welsh men and women, it is the language of their homes, and with many of them it is the language of their first and last thoughts. It is the vehicle with which they express their most sacred hopes and wishes, and in many of the Christian churches in Wales the Welsh Bible is constantly read. They have their Welsh Prayer Books and hymn books. Do not imagine that those books are the books of a generation which has passed away. The latest Welsh hymn book was published as recently as last year and contains as many as 750 Welsh hymns and Welsh translations. It has always seemed to me strange that although Welshmen praise God in their own language, they should not be permitted to speak their own tongue as a right in a court of law.

Secondly, this Bill will facilitate and promote the administration of justice. Many Welshman who speak English think in Welsh. I have often observed that in this House even some of our most eloquent speakers and skilful debaters pause for a moment to get the precise word or to find the exact expression. No doubt many members of this House read French easily and speak it well; many speak it perfectly; yet how should we like to be examined and cross-examined in French? Should we not be rather nervous and embarrassed witnesses and fail to do ourselves justice? We should possibly be thinking in English and having to answer in French. Those who have heard, as I have heard, hundreds and hundreds of cases in Welsh Courts will appreciate the position. I for one welcome this long-delayed reform, and I rejoice, as I am sure your Lordships will rejoice, that the dream of generations of Welshmen has come true at last.

LORD DAVIES

My Lords, may I add a few words in support of the views expressed by my two noble friends? I think the Government is to be congratulated on having introduced this Bill. It is a measure which is long overdue, for, as the Lord Chancellor has stated, ever since the clays of Henry VIII the language of my country has been more or less ostracized in His Majesty's courts of law. Those of us who speak from these Benches welcome this Bill because for many years past it has been sponsored by the Liberal Party and has been included in its programmes. To-day, although we are in the throes of a world war, the Government propose to remove this grievance and to confer the status of equality upon the English and Welsh languages in the administration of justice. As I have indicated, the grievance is a long-standing one, and it is a grievance in two senses. In the first place it casts a slur upon Wales, and it is an affront to every patriotic Welshman. Secondly, it impedes, and in some cases has frustrated, the administration of justice in our Courts. I need not remind your Lordships that equality in the sight of the law is one of the most cherished principles in every free and democratic country. As noble Lords have already pointed out, in the case of citizens who are accustomed in their daily life to think in Welsh and to express themselves in their own language, how is it possible to secure this equality and to arrive at the truth and administer justice unless they are allowed to speak in their native tongue? Consequently I submit that from the practical standpoint this Bill will facilitate the administration of the law in our Courts.

There is another equally important principle underlying this Bill: the principle of toleration. No free or democratic community can function properly unless it is prepared to practise toleration. That is surely one of the essential differences between democratic countries and totalitarian States. In the Atlantic Charter this principle finds its expression in our war aims. It is satisfactory to note that the Government have recognized the need for its application here at home and that they have decided to promote this Bill. I recollect that a few years after the last war an International Conference, which included representatives almost from every country in Europe, was held at Aberystwyth, and the Conference paid a visit to the town of Tregaron, the birthplace of Henry Richard, who used to be known as the member for Wales, and who acted as secretary of the Peace Society of Great Britain for a great many years. At this meeting several speeches were delivered in Welsh, and our continental friends were deeply impressed. They expressed great surprise that in a country which they imagined was an English-speaking country speeches should be tolerated in any other language. This Bill is in effect a recognition of the right to free expression.

It may also, I think, be regarded as an admission on the part of the Government and of Parliament of the claims of Welshmen for a larger measure of freedom in the conduct of their domestic affairs. I hope that this Bill will be the fore-runner of other Bills and other measures, and that the Government will shortly introduce a Bill, long overdue, establishing a Welsh Office and a Secretary of State for Wales. I am sure your Lordships will agree that this is not an unreasonable demand. The Scottish Office and the Secretary of State for Scotland are part and parcel of our national life. Why, therefore, I would ask, should Wales be left out in the cold? Why should we be deprived of a status equal to that of Scotland? If the arrangements have worked so well for so many years in the case of Scotland, why should they not do so in the case of Wales? I submit that this is also overdue. It is only an elementary act of justice to the Welsh people, and I would very respectfully urge upon the Government the importance of acceding to this request at the earliest possible moment. I think your Lordships will agree that nothing is to be gained by ignoring the reasonable demands of my fellow-countrymen for such a measure of devolution which will not only enable them to exercise greater control over their own affairs, but will also tend to lighten the burdens of Parliament. To delay is merely to play into the hands of extremists and separatists who at present only represent a small and irresponsible fraction of our people.

Wales played her part nobly in winning the last war. To-day her sons are fighting in every theatre of war. I believe that they will welcome this Bill as a gesture on the part of the Government. They will regard it as an assurance that Parliament is favourably disposed towards the claims of their native land, and that in helping to defeat the common enemy they are creating conditions which will enable the smaller nations to make their contributions to the sum of human progress and the advancement of civilization. Fy Arglwyddi, Diolch eto ir Llywodraeth; Cawson ateb i'n cais ar adeg anodd; Maent wedi cydnabod cyfiawnder ein howl, i gydraddoldeb yng ngolwg y gyfraith, gan ei gorffori yn y Mesur hwn.

On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.