Lords Sitting of 11 March 1942

Preamble
The House met, The EARL OF ONSLOW on the Woolsack.

INDIA.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, I beg to ask His Majesty's Government whether they are in a position to make a statement as to their policy in relation to India.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (VISCOUNT CRAN-BORNF.) (Lord Cecil): My Lords, I am very glad to make a statement in answer to the noble Viscount's question. A statement has been made in another place to-day by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister, and I shall use the same terms. The crisis in the affairs of India arising out of the Japanese advance has made us wish to rally all the forces of Indian life to guard their land from the menace of the invader. In August, 1940, a full statement was made about the aims and policy which, we are pursuing in India. This amounted, in short, to a promise that as soon as possible after the war India should obtain Dominion status, in full freedom and equality with this country and the other Dominions, under a Constitution to be framed by Indians by agreement among themselves and acceptable to the main elements in Indian national life. This was, of course, subject to the fulfilment of our obligations for the protection of minorities, including the Depressed Classes, and of our treaty obligations to the Indian States, and to the settlement of certain lesser matters arising out of our long association with the fortunes of the Indian sub-continent.
However, in order to clothe these general declarations with precision and to convince all classes, races and creeds in India of our sincere resolve, the War Cabinet have agreed unitedly upon conclusions for present and future action, which, if accepted by India as a whole, would avoid the alternative dangers either that the resistance of a powerful minority might impose an indefinite veto on the wishes of a majority, or that a majority
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decision might be taken which would be resisted to a point destructive of internal harmony and fatal to the setting up of a new Constitution. We had thought of setting forth immediately the terms of this attempt by a constructive British contribution to aid India in the realization of full self-government. We are, however, apprehensive that to make a public announcement at such a moment as this might do more harm than good. We must first assure ourselves that our scheme would win a reasonable and practical measure of acceptance and thus promote the concentration of all Indian thought and energies upon the defence of the native soil. We should ill serve the common cause if we made a declaration which would be rejected by essential elements in the Indian world, and which provoked fierce constitutional and communal disputes at the moment when the enemy is at the gates of India. Accordingly, we propose to send a member of the War Cabinet to India to satisfy himself upon the spot by personal consultation that the conclusions upon which we are agreed, and which we believe represent a just and final solution, will achieve their purpose. My right honourable friend the Lord Privy Seal has volunteered to undertake this task. He carries with him the full confidence of His Majesty's Government and he will strive in their name to procure the necessary measure of assent, not only from the Hindu majority but also from those great minorities amongst which the Moslems are the most numerous and on many grounds pre-eminent.
The Lord Privy Seal will at the same time consult with the Viceroy and the Commander-in-Chief upon the military situation, bearing always in mind the paramount responsibility of His Majesty's Government, by every means in their power, to shield the peoples of India from the perils which now beset them. We must remember that India has a great part to play in the world struggle for freedom, that her helping hand must be extended in loyal comradeship to the valiant Chinese people who have fought alone so long. We must remember also that India is one of the bases from which the strongest counter-blows must be struck at the advance of tyranny and aggression. My right honourable friend will set out as soon as convenient and suitable arrangements can be made. I am sure that he

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will command in his task the heartfelt good wishes of all parts of the House and that meanwhile no words will be spoken or debates be held, here or in India, which would add to the burden he has assumed in his mission or lessen the prospects of a good result.

FOOD SITUATION.
LORD SOUTHWOOD: My Lords, I beg to put a question of which I have given private notice—namely, to ask His Majesty's Government whether they are in a position to make a statement as to the effect of recent developments in the war on the food situation, present and prospective.
THE MINISTER OF FOOD (LORD WOOLTON): My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Southwood for having given me an opportunity of making this statement. Your Lordships will remember that last autumn I stated in your Lordships' House that our stocks of wheat and flour were satisfactorily large. We had been fortunate both in the extent to which millable wheat had been produced in this country, and in the extent to which we had been able to import it from overseas. Your Lordships need have no concern about our stocks of these commodities to-day: but since I last addressed your Lordships on this subject new circumstances have arisen. The fields over which it is now necessary for us—and our Allies—to convey troops and equipment have been considerably extended: the increased strain on our shipping resources is heavy. We must consider where it is possible to make changes in our national diet that, without detriment to the health of the nation, will set free for military purposes ships that otherwise might be engaged in bringing food to this country.
Your Lordships will recognize that of the many foodstuffs we import nothing bulks so large as wheat. To reduce the tonnage used for the transport of wheat His Majesty's Government have therefore decided to increase to 85 per cent. the ratio of flour from wheat milled in this country. This means that we shall stop the production of white bread. Whilst the nation, in spite of the advertisements that I have issued, has made it quite clear that it prefers white bread, I do not believe
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that it wants it at the expense of slowing down our military effort and the movement of our troops. It was in this conviction that His Majesty's Government have decided that from Monday, 23rd March, millers in this country will be prohibited, except under specific licence, from manufacturing any flour other than national wheatmeal flour or some authorized speciality brown flour. Your Lordships will not expect me to make a statement of the actual figure of tonnage that will thus be saved; but I must say that it is not quite so much as I have seen publicly mentioned.
There is another point that will have occurred to your Lordships. This increased milling ratio entails the diversion of some of the product of wheat from the feeding of live stock to use as human food. The decision has not been taken without careful examination of the possible effects on our agricultural output. The change has been timed to take place when, with the approach of summer, it will not be necessary for the Ministry of Agriculture to change, from now until the end of August, the scale of rations of purchased feeding-stuffs allowed to stock and poultry feeders.
I have in the past indicated to your Lordships that we had considerable stocks of flour as well as wheat in this country. That flour is all white flour. We shall have to absorb this. It has been held up to now as part of our security arrangements, and the decision to raise the milling ratio will call for certain supplementary orders. Millers, importers, factors and bakers hold stocks of white flour. As from 23rd March no miller, factor or importer will be permitted to deliver any white flour to any person other than a licensed baker, and then only providing that three times the quantity of national wheatmeal is concurrently delivered. From the same date bakers will be authorized when producing national wheatmeal bread to include up to 25 per cent. of white flour with the national wheatmeal. I apologize for going into these technical details, but they are of considerable importance to the trade. As from 6th April it will not be permissible except under licence to sell any white bread. The only bread on sale will be national wheatmeal bread or authorized speciality brown breads. As from 20th April an Order will take effect prohibiting

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the manufacture of any article of food unless at least three-quarters of the flour contained in that article consists of flour of not less than 85 per cent. extraction. From that date, that is, from the 20th April, biscuits, cakes, and flour confectionery will be made of the same type of flour as is permitted for bread. We shall not go on to the total use of 85, per cent. extraction flour until the existing stocks of white flour have been used up.
My Department, in association with both the millers and bakers, has endeavoured during several months to define a standard and to improve the quality of wheatmeal flour and bread. Complete uniformity in production is not possible. There will always be some differences in colour and appearance: the grades of imported wheat supplied by my Department to different millers are not uniform: at different times the same miller may have to use different grades. The proportions of home-grown wheat included in the millers' grist vary from time to time, and in different parts of the country. Great progress towards uniformity has, however, been made, and I am advised that it is now possible for me to frame an Order prescribing a more detailed technical specification for national wheatmeal than was considered possible at the time our first Order was made.
I am satisfied that we shall get a good bread, good in substance, good in texture, and agreeable to the palate, and I am satisfied that the resultant saving in shipping will represent a considerable contribution to the war effort, in which the whole of the people of this country will be proud to take their share. This is a pure bread; it will be unlike the standard bread of the last war and vastly superior to it. I would add one more word on this subject. We have been very generous in our use of bread in this country. So often a great deal of it is wasted. I wonder how many people have a roll or a piece of bread with a dinner that is quite adequate without the addition of bread. That roll is so often played with and crumbled away. I was going through the park the other day, and I noticed some people amusing themselves by feeding the birds on the park lake with bread. I wondered what sailors who had been torpedoed might have thought if they saw such people so lightly regarding the precious food that has been so dangerously brought
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to us. When I first became Minister of Food almost two years ago I appealed to the public not to waste bread. I repeat that appeal now. I mentioned the dinner roll deliberately because so many people who eat it do not need it. If every person in this country were to endeavour to save one ounce of bread a day, we should save the voyages of fifty-six ships. I commend that to the consideration of my fellow-countrymen who are in a position to make such savings.
It may be convenient if I also tell your Lordships now that, in order to release man-power and factory space, I propose to place limitations on the production of sugar confectionery and of biscuits. I propose to require the chocolate trade to limit their production to slab chocolate, filled bars, and what is known in the trade by the rather gorgeous name of "enrobered count lines." The pre-war selection of biscuits, already reduced by 75 per cent., will, during the next few months, be further reduced. Variety in manufactured foodstuffs usually involves increased labour. I have, therefore, arranged with these trades to produce the stipulated output in the variety that employs the minimum of labour. The public will be quite well served by these trades, and I am glad to be able to tell your Lordships that I have had from their representatives, and from the millers and bakers, both large and small, the most cordial co-operation in bringing these new-conditions into existence.
The noble Lord, Lord Southwood, has in the past drawn the attention of your Lordships to the need for making the sentences on what are termed "Black Market" offenders reflect the seriousness of the damage these people do to the country. It may therefore be your Lordships' pleasure that I should tell you something of the new penalties and provisions which my right honourable friend the Home Secretary is announcing in another place. Under the existing Defence Regulations the maximum term of imprisonment which can be imposed for contravening orders for the control of essential supplies is three months on summary conviction and two years on indictment. For deliberate and calculated efforts to evade for selfish ends orders designed to secure an equitable distribution of controlled articles, we consider these penalties are inadequate, and it has been decided to

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introduce new Defence Regulations raising the maximum term to fourteen years' penal servitude on indictment and to twelve months' imprisonment on summary conviction. In the pursuit of these offenders there is close co-operation between the police and the departments concerned with the control of food and other articles, and as is shown by the number of prosecutions active measures are being taken for the detection of offences. These measures will be kept under review and continuous efforts will be made to strengthen the machinery and make such improvements as experience may suggest.
The offences to which the new Regulations will apply will vary in gravity, and many of them can properly be dealt with by the summary courts empowered as they will be to impose as much as a year's imprisonment. It would be a great mistake to undervalue the work of the magistrates who deal with the great majority of offences against the Defence Regulations as well as against the ordinary law. To their public spirit and efficiency in administering justice we must continue to look for assistance in dealing with a large proportion of offenders. But in order to ensure that there shall be no failure to commit to the higher Courts the graver cases calling for greater penalties than the summary courts are authorized to impose, the new Regulations will provide that cases falling within their scope shall not be dealt with summarily without the consent of the prosecuting authority. There will also be a provision enabling the Director of Public Prosecutions to require in cases of special gravity or difficulty that the offender shall be committed to Assizes rather than to Quarter Sessions.
Special consideration has been given to the question of fines. Even when sentences of imprisonment or penal servitude are imposed—and for deterrent purposes it is most important that full use should be made of such sentences—the offender must not be allowed to retain his illicit gains. Whatever other punishment may be imposed upon him, he ought to forfeit any profit he may have made by contravening the law. The new Regulations will therefore require that, in the absence of special circumstances, the offender must be fined a sum equal to the benefit which in the opinion of the Court he has derived from his offence. This is the least which ought to be done. The
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maximum fine which may be imposed will not be limited to the amount of the profit. It may be higher, as, for example, under the existing provisions in Defence Regulation 55 authorizing a fine equal to three times the price at which the offender has offered to sell or buy the goods in question; and the Courts will, I am sure, recognize that in appropriate cases the fine should be larger than the profit and that sentences of imprisonment or penal servi-ture should be imposed as well as the fines.
The new Regulations will also contain a provision for dealing with the man behind the scenes who, though he organizes and profits from illicit transactions, keeps so far in the background that it has hitherto been difficult or impracticable to bring him to justice. Although it may be known that such a man has taken a large share of the profit it has frequently been impossible to bring home to him guilty knowledge of the active complicity. In future the onus will be placed on these shy profiteers of explaining their conduct to a Court. There will be a provision in the Regulations that any person who receives a commission or valuable consideration in respect of an illicit transaction in controlled articles shall be guilty of an offence unless he proves that he did not know, and had no reason to believe, that the transaction was illicit. As many of these illicit transactions start with thefts, the provisions of the new Regulation will not be confined to contraventions of orders made under Defence Regulation 55, but will also apply to any cases of stealing or receiving stolen articles. Theft of the nation's food or other necessaries is more than theft; it is a crime against the State and must be rigorously punished.
These new provisions have been carefully devised in consultation with the Departments concerned with the administration of orders for the control of essential commodities, and with those who have had experience of the proceedings in the criminal Courts. If further powers are needed, they will be taken, but the Defence Regulation now prepared will, I am confident, provide potent weapons for a vigorous offensive against persons who, regardless of the national interest and of the priniciple that food and other essential articles must be fairly shared, are seeking to exploit the war situation

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for private gain. The Courts can be relied upon to make effective use of the new powers and to administer them with a due sense of the gravity of the evil at which they are aimed. I am sorry to have kept your Lordships so long but I thought the statement was one that the noble Lord, Lord Southwood, would be particularly glad to hear because of the active interest he has taken in this matter.
LORD SOUTHWOOD: My Lords, I am sure the House is very much indebted to the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, for the, clear and concise and, I think, encouraging statement he has made on our food situation. I think it speaks volumes for the work the Ministry of Food has done that after two and half years of war we arc still so amply feed. I am perfectly certain that every right-minded man will whole-heartedly welcome the decision of His Majesty's Government to increase the penalties up to fourteen years' penal servitude to be imposed upon those vicious people who batten on the public in time of war through what is known as the Black Market. I thank the noble Lord very much for the statement and I am sure it will be welcomed by the country at large.
LORD HANKEY: My Lords, I rise to congratulate my noble friend the Minister of Food on the announcement which he has just made, from the point of view of the Scientific Advisory Committee, over which I have had the honour of presiding since its inception till a few days ago. So far as the nation's health is concerned, I know that this, reform of national bread will be particularly welcome to that Committee, for, as stated in the final report of the Mixed Committee of the League of Nations on nutrition of 1937,
"when bread is made with flour that has been excessively milled, much of the valuable mineral elements of the grain fails to find its way into the bread."
It is always difficult to persuade our people to change their feeding habits for health reasons, even when the change is recommended by experts of world standing, and has been approved by large scale experiments. But now, as the noble Lord has just shown, this reform is necessary to our war effort for shipping reasons, and there is no change to which our people will not gladly submit in that supreme interest.
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I venture to forecast that they will never regret it, subject to one paramount condition—namely, that the millers and the bakers play their part in producing a palatable bread all over the country. That may require watchfulness and guidance by the Ministry of Food. I earnestly hope that this reform will be extended as soon as practicable to the Fighting Services, whose health, physique and staying power will soon respond to this improvement in their diet. I also hope that the Minister of Food will follow up this notable advance by pressing forward with the following advice of the Medical Research Council in its Report for 1937–38, so far as it is consistent with the exigencies of war-time feeding. This is the extract:
"A much greater consumption of milk and other dairy products, of eggs, of vegetables, including potatoes, of fruit, and of fat fish, at the expense of bread, biscuits, sugar and sweets, especially in early life, is an urgent national requirement: it will not only improve the physique of the people, but will reduce the amount of dental decay and greatly raise the standard of health. An increase in breastfeeding will still further reduce the high mortality rate of infants from gastro-intestinal troubles and bronco-pneumonia. Whatever advances in medical knowledge may come, until these simple precepts are adopted there will still remain a great deal of preventable disease in this country."
I know that a good deal has been done already along these lines.
LORD HORDER: My Lords, you will not be surprised if I welcome this, decision on the part of His Majesty's Government to make a definite, uniform, controlled, supervised form of flour for national use. I have never been satisfied, personally, that there came back to us in terms of milk anything like the equivalent of the valuable germ of the wheat which we feed to our cattle, and, looking at the new policy from the doctor's angle, which chiefly concerns me, I can assure your Lordships that my colleagues and I are uniformly of the opinion that no single step which the Government could have taken in respect of the nation's food is so calculated as this one to raise the level of the nation's nutrition. The noble Lord, Lord Hankey, has dealt with some of the perhaps more scientific aspects of this matter, and with your Lordships' permission I would like very briefly to supplement them from the clinical angle.
There is still to some extent unresolved the question of the actual availability, during the process of digestion, of the

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superior content of national wholemeal flour in minerals, vitamins and other valuable ingredients, but that is a question which is still in the hands, and will be in the hands, of scientists for some time to come, but the fact remains that 85 per cent. extraction wheat berry is a natural food, and being a natural food we have a priori reason at least for considering that it is superior to white flour, which has been subjected to methods of what are termed replacement. Many criticisms have been offered in respect of national wheatmeal. Some of them are well-informed, others are ill-informed. The fact that we can wrangle about our food demonstrates that we are very well fed. With regard to some of these criticisms, if the Minister will assure us that this new flour on this 85 per cent. basis will be uniform in all but colour—which is known to be a trivial point—that the specification will be as exact as possible, so that for example detection and punishment of criminal tinkering with it will be rendered easy, then a great deal of the current criticisms will die of inanition.
But a fear of a different kind has been expressed—namely, that national wheat-meal, this 85 per cent. extraction flour, is indigestible. We have no evidence of that and we must remember that during the last war the standard bread was of a quality much poorer than the present national wheatmeal. Although a good many careful observations were made during the last war on this question of digestibility, no evidence was forthcoming to show that people's digestions were disturbed by the consumption of that standard bread. In South Africa, as your Lordships perhaps know, already the national wheatmeal is of 90 per cent. extraction, and in Eire I think it is illegal to sell bread made of flour of a lower extraction than 93 per cent. From no one of these countries have we heard of diseases of digestion arising from the consumption of the bread. There is another point that may interest your Lordships. There are no diseases—at least I know of no diseases—of the digestive system, or indeed of any of our systems, other than those for which bread of any kind is disallowed, in which national wheatmeal may not be given with impunity. Even in cases of gastric and duodenal ulcers, when we arrive at the stage when bread is approved as part of the diet, national
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wheatmeal is found to be well tolerated. Evidence seems to be accruing to show that the minerals and vitamins in which national wheatmeal is rich are a valuable adjunct in the healing process.
I, personally, have no fear that the nation will be unwilling to adopt this new policy. There will be some grouses, of course, but I agree with my noble friend when he suggested that a new psychological factor has of late replaced the old one of wanting to eat the bread we like. The new psychological factor, I suggest, is stronger than the old. It is that factor which leads people to say, "If you tell us that more shipping is needed and that we liberate more shipping by eating national wheatmeal, we shall do so" and they sometimes add—God bless them—"I remember my doctor said it was better for me." One more point and I have finished. This national loaf will be of greater benefit to those who are still living below the poverty line in respect of their nutrition than the rest of us, for the simple reason that they are the slowest to change old habits in the matter of basic foods. Those who are restricted both in markets and in means to pay will get better value for their money, because this loaf is itself a food and white bread is not.
LORD HUTCHISON OF MONTROSE: My Lords, I listened with great interest to what the noble Lord the Minister of Food said on this question of brown flour. All I can say is that the millers, especially in the North, will very gladly study what he has said, and I am sure he can reckon on the millers being whole-heartedly behind him in doing what he wants to do and thereby reducing pressure on our shipping. I would like to warn your Lordships' House, however, that by so changing the extraction of flour from wheat we are undoubtedly going to interfere with the production of feeding-stuffs for our animals. That no doubt will be considered by the Minister, but it will have quite a serious effect in the production of offals in the mills. Be that as it may, I can assure the noble Lord that we will loyally support him in anything he wants to do in reducing pressure on shipping. At the same time, I might venture to suggest that perhaps the change in the quality of flour will reduce the consumption of bread to begin with because our people have been largely accustomed to white flour. I think you will find that for

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a time at least, until people get accustomed to the change, there will be a reduction in the consumption of bread. Perhaps that was at the back of the mind of the Minister when he made this change. At any rate all those who are engaged in this trade will heartily support him in what he wants to do. Anything we can do to help the noble Lord we will do, with the greatest gratitude to those who have been doing so much at the Ministry of Food.

OBSTRUCTION OF LANDING GROUNDS.
LORD ELTON: My Lords, I beg to ask the question standing on the Paper in my name.
[The question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government, who is responsible for the obstruction of possible landing places for enemy airborne troops, and whether they are satisfied that this work has been effectively carried out all over the country.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (LORD CROIT): My Lords, in the main the responsibility rests with the Army. The Royal Air Force are responsible only for the obstruction of possible landing grounds in the immediate neighbourhood of Royal Air Force aerodromes and landing grounds where there is a Royal Air Force station commander. Each has its sphere of action clearly defined, and specific instructions have been issued to all concerned. The work is, so far as possible, carried out by the Army and the Royal Air Force authorities themselves, or by contractors working under their direction. His Majesty's Government are satisfied that this work has been carried out effectively wherever it is necessary.

PRODUCER GAS.
THE DUKE OF MONTROSE THE DUKE OF MONTROSE had given Notice that he would move to resolve, That in view of the continued deterioration in the oil supply in the East, the addition to the strength of the German Fleet, the prospective heavy demand on the American oil supplies, and the vital importance of reducing the strain on shipping in handling large imports of oil, immediate steps be taken to economize all possible
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petrol for the use of the Services in the war, by introducing producer-gas propulsion for motor transport on the largest possible scale.
The noble Duke said: My Lords, I rise to move the Resolution standing in my name. I am not forgetful of the fact that I have spoken to your Lordships on this subject on several occasions in the past, and I return to it once more only because, at the end of the debate on the last occasion on December 9, I said I was dissatisfied with the position as we left it then. I asked the noble Lord who then replied to me, Lord Templemore, if he could give me some assurance that this question of finding an alternative supply of power to petrol could be dealt with in a practical way, and the noble Lord I am sure did his best to give me that assurance. But I am sorry to say that I was very far from being satisfied. I said that I would return to the subject again unless something eventuated. That was on December 9. All December went by; nothing eventuated. All January went by; nothing eventuated. All February went by; nothing eventuated. The first ten days of March have passed, and I do not know yet of anything that is going to happen. I spoke to the Minister of Mines and he told me that they were waiting for the Report from Lord Henley's Committee which might be received within a month or six weeks. When we get that Report a month or six weeks will be required for its consideration, and then another month or six weeks will be taken up in framing something after that consideration. Subsequently, another month or six weeks will be occupied, perhaps, in legislating and doing something practical with regard to this Report. In fact, altogether about six months will go by before anything is definitely done.
But the Government have had, to my knowledge, two and a half years to look into this question and to make up their minds definitely whether they can do anything to provide alternative power to petrol. Well, if you cannot make up your minds in two and a half years, what can you expect to do in six weeks? It is no use waiting any longer. We must do something practical. If it was urgent in December the position has grown very much worse now. It has been aggravated seriously by the loss of our oilfields in the Far East. The position now with regard

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to the oil supplies of our Fighting Services is really getting serious. We have lost oilfields on the west side of the Pacific and to-day we learn that we are losing oil supplies and refineries in Burma. This really means losing our oil supplies in the Indian Ocean too. If a time ever comes when we shall try to recover naval supremacy in the Pacific and in the Indian Ocean, it means that we shall have to take all our oil round with us for supplying all the needs of the Navy and the Fleet Air Arm. By just so many tankers as you have to send round with the Fleet will the service of tankers for transporting oil from America to these shores be curtailed, and that of course will shorten supplies here.
And now a word about the Middle East. How is the oil supply position there? We know that there is going to be a tremendous German push to the Caucasus for the sake of the oil there. We hope and pray that that push will be defeated. But so many things have gone wrong, and there have been so many miscalculations in this war that nobody can say for certain whether that push will be defeated or not. If it were successful our oil supplies from Iraq and Iran and the Persian Gulf generally would be very gravely affected indeed. Looking further West, how about supplies from South America; from Venezuela and Mexico? We are very fortunate in being able to get oil from there, but it is a long and dangerous voyage to these shores. We lose a number of ships on that voyage. Then again the Axis propaganda in South America is very severe and very active. There is a close affinity between the peoples of South America and the peoples of the Axis countries. We hope that we may still continue to get oil from South America, but it is not a dead absolute certainty.
Then we look to the United States, which have been of the greatest possible assistance to us. They have sent us simply marvellous supplies of everything, including munitions and oil, but the United States have never had very big requirements for oil for their Fighting Services in the past. To-day the United States are building up the greatest Navy, the greatest Army and the greatest Air Force that the world has ever seen belonging to a single nation. Their demand for oil may reach astronomical figures.
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Nobody can say, when the United States have supplied their own requirements, how much oil will remain to be available for us. Looking around the world, is there anybody who can say definitely that the position with regard to oil supplies is satisfactory as it is to-day? No one can say that, and, therefore, as I said before, if it was urgent in December that something should be done for the sake of our own Fighting Services, it is now imperative that something should be done.
Your Lordships know perfectly well that almost everything in our Fighting Services depends on oil. It is no use adding battleships to the Navy, tanks to the Army, and big bombers and fighters to the Air Force unless they have oil to operate with. Without petrol, without oil, they cannot operate, and if they cannot operate we may as well—to use vulgar parlance—go out of business and put the shutters up. We know, of course, that tankers are being sunk, and that our shipping generally is suffering. The Prime Minister said the other day in the House of Commons that we had had serious shipping losses in the last two months. The losses had been worse than those which had been experienced for a long time, they might get worse yet, and a great proportion of the ships which had been sunk were tankers. That is a very serious thing. We are the only great nation in the world to-day that has no alternative power to petrol. All the Axis Powers have it; Germany has it, Italy has it, and Japan has it. They have all gone in for producer gas and synthetic petrol as alternative powers to oil for their Fighting Forces. That brutal nation, Japan, before ever she went to war, in view of the shortage of oil, brought forward a five-year plan to make synthetic petrol and establish gas production in her country. She spent £24,000,000 on it and, more than that, she passed a law making it compulsory for every vehicle in Japan not only to be fitted for petrol but to be fitted for producer gas as well.
The Axis Powers know that we are the only nation that has not gone in for a system of alternative power. What is their view? They say: "Oh, we may be losing submarines, but what about the losses of Great Britain? And what are they doing about it in Great Britain?" The answer to that last question really is: "Nothing." All the Government can

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say is: "Pull in your belts." A little while ago the position with regard to oil in this country was not satisfactory, and the Government said we must restrict the supply for private cars. A little while later the position was still unsatisfactory. The Government said that they must cut down supplies still further, and restrict the supplies for public transport vehicles, thus gravely inconveniencing munition workers. It was the policy of "Pull in your bells" again. The position continued to be unsatisfactory, and those engaged in the distributive trades were told that instead of distributing their goods every day, or three times a week, they must do so only on one day a week, much to the inconvenience of their customers. Again it was a question of "Pull in your belts."
The Axis Powers are able to say: "We may lose submarines, but we are sinking tankers, and all that the British people can do is to pull in their belts. If we sink enough tankers, there will come a day when they can pull in their belts no further, and then we shall have got them, because they have no alternative to petrol." That is a serious position, and its effect on the morale of the people of this country is bad. To sit still and to pull in one's belt is not a policy but an expedient, and an expedient will not win a war. What we have to do is to devise a constructive system of fighting. We want a fighting policy, not a policy of sitting still and pulling in our belts. To carry out a fighting policy we must have an alternative to petrol. We must be able to say to the enemy: "You may go on sinking our tankers, but we; are going to develop our sources of power at home, where we have the finest coal supplies in the world, for maintaining our transport, no matter what you do." That is a constructive policy and a fighting policy I which will appeal to the people of this country, and for which the support of the people will be obtained far more strongly than it can be for a policy of sitting still and telling them to pull in their belts and suffer discomfort.
Your Lordships will ask what we can do. First of all, whatever we do for the utilization of producer gas must be done on a large scale. I have good authority for saying that the Axis Powers have 200,000 vehicles running on producer gas to-day, and those 200,000 vehicles are
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saving them about 2,000,000 tons of petrol a year. I do not know that we could do anything as big as that, but it is no use having merely 10,000 vehicles; that will make no difference as a matter of national policy. We could, however, do half what the Axis Powers have done, and have 100,000 vehicles, or at least we could have 50,000. If we had 50,000 vehicles, it would save 500,000 tons of petrol a year, which is a very big proportion of all the petrol used by the Fighting Forces in a year. That is worth doing. Why not adopt a constructive policy and put 50,000 vehicles right away on to producer gas, and save 500,000 tons of petrol a year? Something of that kind should be done at once.
There will, of course, be difficulties, but difficulties are made for man to surmount, so let us get over them. People will say, "Where are you going to get the coal to work the gas producers? It will require about 2,000,000 tons of coal, and the Minister of Mines says that the output of coal will only just cover our present requirements." I do not regard the position there as impossible. We know that the output per miner has fallen considerably lately. I believe that the output per day used to be 25 cwt. at one time, but it has now fallen to 22½ cwt. Why should not we appeal to the miners to help us to defeat the U boats? Let us ask them to help us to save our shipping by providing an alternative to petrol by producing 1 cwt. of coal a day more. If they do that, we shall have two or three times as much coal as is needed for the whole scheme. We have not made a proper psychological appeal to the miners. It is one thing for the miners to go on turning out coal for our munition works and so on, but it is another thing to say to them, "The extra cwt. of coal which we are asking you to produce each day will be used to change over from petrol to producer gas, and you will be directly helping us in the Battle of the Atlantic." If we make a proper psychological appeal to the miners, I believe that we shall find that the output will be increased by at least 1 cwt. a day, and that will be more than we shall need.
Then people will say, "What about the steel? We have not got the steel." The steel required, however, is no more than would be needed to build two tankers. Tankers can be sunk at sea

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with all their steel and all their oil, and the men on board may lose their lives. The same amount of steel, if used for developing producer-gas plants, and plants for the lorries, would not be lost, and it would produce far more production power than ever two tankers will carry. From the point of view of steel, therefore, this would be a good investment.
We may also be told that there is no man-power available. There is the manpower available. American soldiers are coming into this country in thousands to-day, and I am sure that we could withdraw from the Army the necessary man-power to build up this scheme. The scheme can be carried out, and, in my view, it should be carried out, by a public utility undertaking, on which the Government would be represented, and which could be answered for in Parliament by some Minister. I am sure that the whole scheme could be carried out within eight months from now, but we must begin at once to build up from slow beginnings to the full scheme, whatever it may be. I do not advocate any special scheme, but I do advocate that we should begin now to do something practical. I ask your Lordships to support my Motion. I know that I have a very great deal of support in the country to-day for doing something practical to meet the shortage of petrol, and, if it should go out that the Government are obstructionists in this matter, the country will want to know why. I am sure that it would be the greatest mistake for the Government to give an unsympathetic hearing to this appeal to develop an alternative source of power in the dangerous situation in which we find ourselves in the matter of oil supplies.
Moved to resolve, That in view of the continued deterioration in the oil supply in the East, the addition to the strength of the German Fleet, the prospective heavy demand on the American oil supplies, and the vital importance of reducing the strain on shipping in handling large imports of oil, immediate steps be taken to economize all possible petrol for the use of the Services in the war, by introducing producer-gas propulsion for motor transport on the largest possible scale.—(The Duke of Montrose.)
LORD AlLWYN: My Lords, I should like in a very few words to support the Motion. Your Lordships well know the amount of labour, thought and energy expended on this subject by the noble Duke for years past. Other noble Lords also have interested themselves and have done their best to interest successive Ministers in this important matter, notably my noble friend Lord Barnby, who I hope will be intervening in this debate later. I, in a humble way, have on two occasions been privileged to address your Lordships on this same matter, while discussing our fuel supplies, in 1938 and 1939. In April, 1938, I was informed that the Government had this question under very serious consideration, and your Lordships were assured (I am quoting from the Official Report) that the Government "are actually taking action at the present moment." Four years ago! In July, 1939, the then First Lord of the Admiralty, the noble Earl, Lord Stanhope, said this:
"I can assure your Lordships that the Fuel Research Department has been investigating this subject very closely. All sorts of experiments have been made. We are very closely in touch with the producer-gas experts, and I understand that very considerable progress is, being made in that direction."
At that time it was well known to the Government that very rapid strides had been made in France, in Germany, in Italy, in Russia and in other Continental countries in this matter of producer gas. It was equally well known to them that our technical knowledge in this country was no whit inferior to that obtaining on the Continent, and that, as I ventured to say to your Lordships three years ago, the excellence of British plants no less than the unique suitability of our coal has been universally acknowledged. With the information, therefore, which was then in the possession of the Government—that is four years ago now: the noble Duke referred to two and a half years, but I submit it is four years since they had this information—there is no reason whatever why to-day there should not be very large numbers of motor vehicles on the roads, let alone such things as tractors and stationary plant, operating on producer gas, thereby saving thousands and thousands of gallons of that oil and petrol the supply and conservation of which would appear to be, with each day that passes, a matter of increasingly urgent and vital importance.

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And yet, in spite of Government assurances, here we are, after two and a half years of war, still pleading with the Government to do something. Your Lordships were told as recently as the 26th February last—a fortnight ago—that the Committee under the Chairmanship of Lord Henley were expected to be presenting their Report to the Secretary for Mines "within a month or six weeks." We were further told that the trials of new types of producers and filters were being supervised by a Committee under Mr. Shearman. Committees and trials, trials and committees—and still, after two and a half years of war, no visible result. One must not anticipate, of course, the reply of the Minister this afternoon, but it is perhaps permissible to express the hope that something a little more robust and substantial than the frugal repast provided by the Government on former occasions may be set before your Lordships to sustain the hunger and, anxiety of many of us who for years have been asking for bread and been given a stone. Surely the time has come to put an end to indolence, apathy, and these seemingly delicate and endless operations of "exploring avenues" and "turning scones." These dreaded assurances of careful and serious consideration emanating from the Front Bench have really assumed by now an almost sinister aspect, their invariable result being a further period of stagnation and masterly inactivity. Can anything be more despairing?
The House was further informed on the 26th February in this connexion that there is at present no surplus of coal. To me this present shortage of coal supply is the most fantastic and heartbreaking thing of all. The noble Lord, Lord Mottistone, has on more than one occasion quoted to your Lordships the words of that eminent man the late Master of Trinity, Sir J. J. Thomson, who pointed out that the value of our coal deposits in this country was greater than that of all the oil and rubies and diamonds in any other country in the world. Yet, in spite of the experience of the last war, we were told in the course of the debate on coal supplies in your Lordships' House on the 1st October last that during the winter of 1939–40 the supplies available from the coalfields were barely sufficient for all our needs. In June, 1940, after the collapse of France and the withdrawal of the demand, for exportation, of something like 500,000
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tons of coal weekly, instead of carrying on in the mines and re-allocating that surplus to home reserves, what happened? Output was curtailed, and a drain from the coalfields was permitted throughout the summer of 1940, resulting in very large numbers of the best hewers of coal in the country joining the Armed Forces.
I have no intention of wearying your Lordships by continuing that sorry story—the difficulties of getting men out of the Armed Forces once they arc there are well known to you. I only refer to this matter of coal supplies because it is germane to the issue which we are discussing this afternoon in so far as one of the difficulties alleged to exist in the supply of solid fuel available for conversion is that there is no surplus of coal at present. I do not know to what extent the anthracite seams in this country are being worked to-day. As your Lordships know, anthracite is a particularly suitable fuel for producer gas, and if a sufficient supply of low-temperature coke or charcoal is not forthcoming, then surely something could be done to accelerate the supply of anthracite.
In any case, I suggest that it is an insult to your Lordships' intelligence to be told that nothing can be done in this matter. Alternatively it is straining the patience to breaking point to be assured after all these years that the matter is still receiving the serious, sympathetic and careful consideration of the Government. I am inclined to say, a murrain on all sophistries, a plague on polemics and evasions! The times are far too serious for complacency in this matter. It is imperative if we are to win this war to sweep away now, once and for all, all supineness and lethargy. They are contemptible qualities at all times—I have no doubt we have all of us been guilty of them at times; but, whereas it is possible to condone such weaknesses in peace-time they become unworthy and unpardonable in a world at war, when the country and the Empire are facing the dangers which confront us to-day.
I see a vision of certain eminent and wicked men appearing before the Recording Angel and being asked to state what in their opinion were their besetting sins here on earth. I see them, I hear them, reciting carefully and honestly and meticulously their manifold iniquities, many of them very unimportant, trivial, almost negligible. I see the

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Recording Angel brushing them aside as of no importance and then fixing his eye on each one of them in turn, sternly addressing them: "Between you, you were once in positions of trust enabling you to do your best to retrieve the years which the locusts had eaten. You failed to safeguard and to exploit wisely the coal supplies of your country—the inexhaustible coal supplies upon which the prosperity of your country was largely built up. You allowed your coal industry to be neglected. You muddled the transport of coal to the people. You thereby allowed your people to go short of fuel and even to feel the pangs of cold. You neglected the introduction of producer gas and the saving" of oil and petrol that would have resulted, thereby causing serious shortage of these fuels in your country's gravest hour and inflicting hardships and discomfort on countless people. You allowed this state of affairs to come about in a country blessed above all others with an abundance of that greatest treasure that any country can possess—coal." And I see the Recording Angel indicating to them their somewhat sultry destination, and as he turns to the Chief Stoker hovering near, I hear him say, "Hot it up!"
LORD GAINFORD: My Lords, I would pay tribute to the pertinacity of the noble Duke who has raised this question again. His advocacy is very vehement, but it is to the point. We have often heard the noble Lord who has just resumed his seat speaking on this same subject of the importance of a greater quantity of coal for producer gas. In 1915, with the help of some very able scientists, I established a department for research work in coal when I was at the Board of Education. We got a Vote of £2,000,000 even in war-time for the purpose of research work. That is a number of years ago. We have since, as a Mining Association, devoted very large sums to research work for the production of coal, for the utilization of coal, and for economy in the use of coal; and several organizations devoted to trying to secure the better use of coal in the form of gas producers have been established. The Coal Utilization Research Association has spent large sums of money and done very good work. The Government, through the Fuel Research Station, have done very good
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work. At Greenwich they have an establishment of a rather more technical character which has also done very good work. Yet we have been going on much too slowly in trying to secure a fuel which will replace petrol.
Petrol is an expensive fuel to employ, and in war-time it is extravagant for us to use it if we can use gas. I am quite aware that Lord Henley's Committee have not yet reported, and perhaps the Government may say, "We are waiting for the Report of Lord Henley's Committee." Meanwhile a great many people have been at work using this kind of gas for the propelling of automobiles. I am told that at the present time there are seventy-five firms at least with vehicles at work which are run by coal gas. Yet the Government have not done anything of an important character to help the movement which is going on. This movement has passed the experimental stage. What I want to point out to your Lordships is that tests of these vehicles have been made repeatedly by scientists as well as by the people who arc operating them, and they have proved a success. The matter has passed the experimental stage, I repeat, and it ought now to be adopted by the whole country in increasing strength, as suggested by the noble Duke. I have to put in a caveat. At the present time it may be a little injudicious to advocate the use of coal for producer gas when every ounce is required for our furnaces and our munition works, and when we are all trying to do what we can to save coal to enable our munitions to be produced. At the same time something more ought to be done in the way of utilizing coal to save petrol, and I trust that the Government to-day will be able to tell us they are going to take a real step forward in this matter.
LORD TEVIOT: My Lords, I shall detain the House for just one moment. There are certain perfectly clear facts that appear to me to come from this debate and also from my own personal observation on this subject for some considerable time past. The first fact that seems to me to be undoubted is that this can be done. As the noble Lord who preceded me has said, there are quite a number of vehicles on the road to-day which are using this particular gas already. The next point I should like to impress on the noble Lord who is going

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to reply is this. I hope the Government are not aiming at getting something that is quite perfect. If we go on trying to get something that is absolutely the last word in efficiency we shall never start at all. You only realize that large word, "efficiency," by trying things out in a practical commercial way. Another fact that emerges very strongly seems to be that the necessity for producer gas, which my noble friend the Duke of Montrose so stressed, is absolutely proved right up to the hilt. Another fact is that with a very little further effort on the part of the miners, ample coal can be produced for this purpose. I feel that the miner, if he is appealed to, particularly now, will respond with that little bit extra which will so help the country. Finally, I hope the noble Lord will bear this in mind. I have every reason to believe that if the Government are a bit nervous about taking the risk, if facilities are given to other people, the matter will be carried out, and work will begin at once.
THE MINISTER OF V/AR TRANSPORT (LORD LEATHERS): My Lords, in reply to the noble Duke, may I first remind your Lordships of what has already been done by the Government as regards producer-gas vehicles, and explain certain aspects of producer traction which must be taken into account before coming to a decision to increase the number of producer-gas vehicles on the road? Thanks largely to the work of a Committee set up by the Government in 1937, we were able, shortly after the outbreak of war, to put on the road producer-gas vehicles of a design which had the advantages of simplicity of construction and of operation. The merit of what has been called the Government emergency producer is shown by the fact that since that date these vehicles have run between 4,000,000 and 5,000,000 miles in commercial operation, using anthracite and low-temperature coke as fuel. There are three reasons why steps have not been taken to secure a large increase in their numbers. First, in any producer driven vehicle there is an unavoidable loss of efficiency as compared with petrol, due to loss of power, loss of pay load, and increased maintenance. Secondly, it would mean the diversion of solid fuel which was in great demand. Thirdly, the construction of producers would entail a diversion of labour and material greatly in demand in many other directions.
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Our supplies of petrol have been so far adequate for essential purposes, but the Government took certain steps to further the development of producer-gas vehicles against a possible urgent need for them in the future. First, to encourage the use of producers on commercial vehicles, certain concessions as regards taxation and statutory requirements were granted. Secondly, they arranged and financed investigation directed to widening the range of suitable fuels. Thirdly, they set up a Technical Advisory Committee, including representatives of eleven leading transport organizations, six of which were actually doing research and development work on various form of producer. Thus the experience of these firms was pooled with that of the Fuel Research Station and the organization was in being for testing any fuels or new producer-gas equipment. Sustained road trials are now being carried out under commercial conditions. All those who have had experience of this problem agree as to the considerable technical difficulties involved; the development has consequently taken longer than we had hoped.
The noble Duke has now asked for an immediate and substantial extension of the number of producer vehicles in service. From what I have already said, your Lordships will realize that any such programme would entail a large diversion of industrial effort, a loss of efficiency in our road services, and heavy diversion of coal supplies from existing users. Before sponsoring any such drastic extension, the Government must discharge their responsibility for seeing that we adopt the best technical solution of the problem, and we must be certain of getting good and reliable service from producer vehicles on the road. I do assure your Lordships that we shall not wait for anything like perfection, but there really is a very great difficulty in putting before the road organizations at the moment an equipment that has so far justified anything like a big extension. The road trials that are now proceeding are showing rather better results than any before them, but I do urge that we must wait a sensible time for these road trials to show whether just those disadvantages or imperfections that must be overcome can be overcome before anything like a real large-scale development takes place. I say that because the

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strain on our transport resources is heavy and increasing, and we must not lightly do anything to lower the efficiency of our road services or to delay the flow of goods.
At present there are two designs of producer under trial, both of which it is hoped would extend the range of suitable fuels—the B.C.U.R.A. producer and the modified emergency producer. The Government are bound to await the result of those trials, and will not make a decision until they have satisfactory evidence with regard to them. On the important question of the availability of fuels under present conditions, we hope to have the Report of Lord Henley's Committee in a fortnight. This, I would assure your Lordships, is a decision that I can stand by because the Report is now definitely in the course of preparation. I assure the noble Duke, also, that it will not be a case of waiting all those rotating six-week periods before there is made a definite decision about it. I would like to remind your Lordships that I am interested in this matter first as Minister of War Transport, and in regard to the roads of this country we have to keep up a continuous flow of goods traffic. I would really welcome, and would do everything I can to encourage and promote, any system other than petrol that will drive these vehicles satisfactorily, because not only does my responsibility extend to roads but it extends also to shipping. I have heard a good deal to-day about the shipping problem. I can assure your Lordships that on that I am very knowledgeable, and I fully apprehend in all the calls we have to meet that we may at some future time be in a position of greater jeopardy with regard to our imports of liquid fuels. I am therefore concerned from both angles of this problem, and I would like the House to feel that so far as I am concerned, and so far as His Majesty's Government are concerned, there will be nothing dilatory on our part in dealing with this matter.
Before concluding I must remind your Lordships that the final decision as to the extent to which producer gas should be employed must depend not only on the achieved efficiency of the producer vehicle, but also on the relative availability of selected solid fuel and oil, and on the competing demands for labour and materials needed to manufacture pro-
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ducer-gas plant. My honourable friend the Secretary for Mines has discussed this subject very fully with the noble Duke. Until we know more of the results of the trials now in progress there is nothing further which I can say, except that I would interject this remark, that we are pressing very hard for a quick report, it will be an interim report. These sustained road trials, if carried out at their full length, would take quite a long time to complete. I think it may be said that a very satisfactory experience could be recorded in an interim report, and I feel that we should have that before us simultaneously with receiving the Henley Report, so that the matter can have the fullest consideration from all angles immediately. I had hoped that the noble Duke would have postponed his Motion until I was able to report progress, since he was made aware of the very early time at which these reports are going to be made known. In view of these circumstances I feel justified in asking the noble Duke to withdraw his Motion.
LORD BARNBY: My Lords, I am sure the House will be very grateful for the patient, considerate and courteous explanation which the noble Lord has just given us on this matter. There can be little doubt that the House was looking forward with great interest to the statement that the noble Lord was going to make. Before coming to the House today many noble Lords, seeing on the Paper the Motion of my noble friend, will have felt sympathy with it. Broadly speaking, if there can be an economy on imported fuel, it is in the national interest to make it. Therefore the noble Lord who has just replied for the Government will have the fundamental sympathy of the House in that respect. I would add that I feel that he did give us some consolation when, in his last appeal to the noble Duke, the mover of the Resolution, he said that on behalf of the Government he was pressing hard for an early interim report. To that extent the speech of the noble Lord is consoling. As a whole, however, it is far from reassuring and I have a suspicion that the House will have an uneasy feeling, as my noble friend Lord Ailwyn said, that there is a suggestion of some sinister influence at work here.
I intervene with some diffidence because no case could have been made with greater

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clarity or conciseness than by the noble Duke. He repeated appeals which he had made before in your Lordships' House. I think this is the fifth debate in the last five years. My noble friend spoke with great eloquence and professional knowledge and I think he met with great sympathy in your Lordships' House. I have no such knowledge, technical or professional, but I have followed the matter with considerable interest and that is why I feel justified in intervening. There are two angles to this question. There is first the administrative question, whether anything has been or should be done, and there is also the technical question. The noble Lord who replied for the Government suggested that it would be improper to come to a decision until far more investigation had taken place. It is for that reason that I feel far from satisfied with the reply.
I thought that in the previous debate the Minister of War Transport might have put a more detailed reply in the hands of my noble friend who then spoke for the Government, but to-day my noble friend—and we appreciate it very much—has himself come here and given us an explanation of the position as it is to-day. He spoke with great fluency and rapidity, and I was not able to get down his words; but he has the knack of hat tricks and he gave us three sequences of three reasons. I see the noble Lord the Minister of Food sitting on the Front Bench. If all the Committees of which we have heard today were hens and did not produce more eggs than these Committees have done, the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, would not be able to give us much food.
I turn to the technical side for a moment. I realize that it is an extremely controversial question. I personally have no interest, direct or indirect, in anything to do with road transport or fuel. The matter became of interest to me simply because I read technical papers about it, and the more debates I have heard in your Lordships' House the more interested I have become, and the more convinced that there was deliberate intention to postpone this thing. Think of the arguments there were between the railways and the road transport interests. As the noble Lord, Lord Teviot, said, why not take a decision? We heard before the last war that we wanted a better type before making progress. You
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can go on a long time waiting until you get a better type. The noble Lord, Lord Gainford, with his ripe knowledge of matters affecting coal, gave strong support to the noble Duke. These are impressive facts. Following up previous debates, grievous disquiet is caused in the minds of several members of your Lordships' House.
I suggest that we have had an example of postponement of final decisions even to-day. The noble Lord, Lord Woolton, has just told us that he is going to increase the extraction of flour from wheat from 75 per cent. to 85 per cent. That has been the subject of argument ever since the last war. The Government have at last decided to take the plunge. Take the defence of aerodromes as another example of indecision. The matter was insisted upon in debates of the most emphatic and aggressive character in both Houses of Parliament, and at last the Government agreed to take a step which presumably might have been taken sooner. Another point I want to make is in regard to the employment of coal and steel. I realize the difficulty at the moment of getting coal, but as a member of the Central Electricity Board, one of the largest users of coal, I make the suggestion that, owing to the administrative maldirection of the coal available for boilers of different character, the carbonization of coal is very inadequate, and that often the wrong coal is sent to the wrong boilers. The result is that coal is squandered and a lot of electricity-producing equipment is put out of commission.
Then there is the question of steel. Again, I may say that I have no interest in steel and know nothing about it, except what I have heard as a past President of the Federation of British Industries. If there was more progress in using prefabricated reinforced concrete in the construction work now going on there would be a great saving of steel. Here again is a matter of controversy which is occupying the trade Press a good deal. There are allegations that the Government are not progressive in the matter of using pre-fabricated reinforced concrete as a substitute for steel construction. I remember that when I was President of the Federation of British Industries, a suggestion was made of pooling railway wagons, but vested interests jumped in.

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The war has brought about the pooling of wagons, and it might just as well have been done before the war.
Then there is the question of the dislike of the operation of these things. Well, buy them with a subsidy. You may say that a subsidy may be an expensive matter. How about the agricultural subsidies? Are we not paying money in that way to induce people to do things and to get production? The question of cost in this matter could be solved, I am sure. Ask any resident of the district of Thornton-le-Moor about the cost of the plant that has been erected there. The figure runs into millions, not one million. The plant has been half constructed, and then there has come a change of policy. Why, the cost of that is many times what the cost of this would be. The noble Lord who replied on behalf of the Government reminded us that at one time the Government had given great assistance by removing many of the difficulties and disabilities which have existed. But the Treasury and the Inland Revenue authorities undoubtedly opposed this on taxation grounds, as was brought out in earlier debates, and there was at that time some suggestion that vested interests had delayed action in this matter.
Another instance of delay occurs to me. This happened in the early days of the sugar beet industry. There was exactly the same delay and exactly the same opposition. I ask the indulgence of your Lordships to bring these precedents to your notice because, as my noble friend Lord Ailwyn has said, this is not a matter of recent occurrence. It is a matter which has been going on for a number of years. I was much impressed by the proposal of the noble Duke, the mover of this Motion, in appealing for something to be done, that this matter should be taken out of the hands of private interests and put into the hands of a public utility company. As one who has sat from the beginning on the Central Electricity Board and has seen how it works, how, under statutory authority, civilian agency has achieved what has now proved to have been the greatest war precaution the country has got, I have a natural belief that there is a distinct merit in that way of doing things.
It seems that here is an instance of need for a decision by the War Cabinet. Lord Ailwyn, in what I am sure we all agree
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was a most eloquent and most convincing speech, brightened by that touch of humour which we all admire, told us of the suggestion that here was a case of delay of decisions in high quarters, and it seems that the War Cabinet might well be required to take some decision in this matter. I say, with due respect, to the noble Lord who replied on behalf of the Government, the noble Lord who has the great responsibility of being Minister of War Transport, that he is in the unfortunate position of being, in this matter, subject to the Minister of Mines who, in turn, is under the Board of Trade. Now I naturally have the greatest confidence in the extent to which that side has been brought forward by my right honourable friend the present Minister of Supply, so recently President of the Board of Trade, but it would seem, or at least it is suggested, that action is lying partly with the Minister of Mines and partly with the Minister of War Transport. Doubtless there are means of co-ordinating this.
In conclusion, I would suggest that in a matter like this, where there is admitted technical controversy, there is need for it to be handled in a manner different from other questions in regard to which time exists for decisions to be taken. The appeal of my noble friend based on the contention that increased coal production would save lives will, I hope, bring a response from those concerned. But there is surely going to be imposed on the Government and on those Departments concerned during this period a great responsibility. That is inevitable because they can be most easily pinned as those with the greatest responsibility. While repeating my expression of gratitude to the noble Lord who, speaking for the Government, was doing his best to deal with what is a poor case, I have to add that it was done in a manner which is insufficient and did not adequately allay the anxiety which is felt with regard to the matter. For that reason I support my noble friend, the mover of this Resolution.
THE DUKE OF MONTROSE: My Lords, I have listened very carefully to the speeches which have been made regarding my Motion. I was particularly struck with the speech of the noble Lord, the Minister of War Transport. I think I may say that this is the first time in

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your Lordships' House that I have really felt that I have got some support for my plea for this alternative power to petrol. As I say, it is the first time that I consider I have got support, and I really feel greatly encouraged because I am impressed by the noble Lord's sincerity. I confidently believe that the noble Lord really does mean, if he can, to build up the necessary industry for this alternative form of power. It would not serve any useful purpose if on this occasion I were to press my Motion to a Division. I know that your Lordships will be perfectly sick of my going on like this, putting forward Motions time and again, and each time ending up in the same way by withdrawing them. But I feel that I am justified this time. I do not know if the noble Lord can give us any assurance that he will do something within a definite period, will go so far as to say that if nothing happens within one month I will again come forward.
LORD LEATHERS: My Lords, I think that would be keeping me within too narrow a period.
THE DUKE OF MONTROSE: My Lords, that is the last thing which I wish to do. I do not wish to embarrass the noble Lord or put him in any difficulty. I should like to know that he is really dealing with this matter. There are so many Ministers with a hand in it—there is the noble Lord himself, the Minister of Mines, the President of the Petroleum Board and a few more. I wonder if there is co-ordination—that word beloved of all civil servants. I wonder if there is real co-ordination.
LORD LEATHERS: My Lords, may I just tell you that there is the fullest co-ordination in the Lord President's Committee which is attending to this very subject.
THE DUKE OF MONTROSE: My Lords, if the Ministers can really coordinate, the difficulties which the noble Lord has mentioned can be got over. One of the difficulties which we mentioned related to construction and conversion. It is easy, however, to fit producer-gas plant, when you have it, to new lorries. They can be built for utilizing producer-gas power. That is a simple matter. Another difficulty related to the need for a big effort on the part
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of manufacturers. Did not the Axis Powers have to make great efforts to get their manufacturing plant organized? Have not they had to encounter troubles about material and labour? Of course they have. Those troubles can be got over. Am I to understand that we cannot do what the Axis Powers have done, that the difficulties are too great? Surely not. If the Axis Powers can get over these difficulties, so can we. I do not attach any importance to these difficulties at all. And I am sure that the right thing for me to do now is to ask leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

COST OF PRIVATE BILLS, &c.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF ONSLOW): My Lords, it will be within your Lordships' recollection that a short time ago, in a discussion in your Lordships' House, the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Sankey, referred to the question of the cost of Private Bills, of promoting and, especially, of opposing Private Bills in the Committees of your Lordships' House. I think that everyone will agree with what my noble friend Lord Sankey said as to the value of our Private Bill procedure, and I think that everyone will agree that, if that could be cheapened in any way, it would be of very great advantage both to Bill promoters and to petitioners, so long as the essential features of our procedure were not interfered with. The effects fall more hardly not, probably, on the larger bodies, such, as county boroughs and county councils, but on smaller bodies, such as district councils, statutory undertakers, and especially private individuals. The cost to petitioners is undoubtedly very considerable.
This question is not a new one; it has been examined before. It was examined by a Committee in another place, which went into the whole question of Private Bill procedure, and it was examined by the Royal Commission on Local Government, of which I had the honour to be Chairman, but no very definite results came about. At the present time, however, the position is rather different. Expense, especially now and after the war, is a matter of primary concern. If we want to maintain—and we do want to maintain—our Private Bill system and its

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procedure intact, we must do all we can, if we can do anything, to make it cheaper and more easily accessible to smaller purses. Even if nothing can be done, even if we cannot produce a scheme for cheapening procedure, I think it would be to the satisfaction of your Lordships' House that the matter should be gone into, and that we should be able to say that we have done our best, that we have gone into the whole question and examined it thoroughly, and that this is what we recommend. I therefore beg to move the Motion which stands in my name.
Moved, That a Select Committee be appointed to consider the question of the cost involved in promoting and opposing Private Bills, Provisional Orders and Special Orders, and that the Lords following, with the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Committee:

V. Hutchinson (E. Donoughmore),

V. Mersey,

V. Sankey,

L. Templemore,

L. Hare (E. Listowel),

L. Belstead.

—(The Earl of Onslow.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

BUDE GAS ORDER, 1942.
Special Order proposed to be made on the application of the Bude Gas Company:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

TORQUAY GAS ORDER, 1942.
Special Order proposed to be made on behalf of the Torquay and Paignton Gas Company:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

GOVERNMENT OF BURMA (AUDIT AND ACCOUNTS) ORDER, 1942.

  GOVERNMENT OF BURMA (SHAN STATES FEDERAL FUND) ORDER, 1942.
  Report from the India and Burma Orders Committee, That they have examined the draft Orders as required by the Standing Orders of the House; that in their opinion the Orders raise important questions of policy and principle; that the Orders are founded on precedent; that in the opinion of the Committee the Orders cannot be passed by the House without special attention, but that no further inquiry is necessary before the House proceeds to a decision on the Resolutions to approve the said Orders:
  Read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
  House adjourned.