HL Deb 29 July 1942 vol 124 cc75-104

LORD STRABOLGI rose to ask His Majesty's Government, what further measures have been taken, or are proposed, to make the most effective use of the scientific and inventive talent of the nation for war purposes; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, you will appreciate that the very important business we have been dealing with has rather delayed the debate on the Motion I am now proposing, but that was inevitable and I shall deal with this highly important subject as briefly as I can. It is a subject which has been discussed more than once in your Lordships' House and my object now is to invite the Government to report progress. I do not suggest for a moment that a great deal has not been done and I would like to take the opportunity of paying some tribute to former Lords President of the Council who have had this special responsibility of harnessing the scientific forces of the country to the service of the State. They have done very admirable work. I refer particularly to the late Earl of Balfour who, as Lord President of the Council, was a great friend of scientists and to my noble friend Earl Stanhope, who when he was Lord President took a very close and intimate interest in the harnessing of the scientific forces of the nation to the services of the whole people.

I would like also to make it perfectly clear that I have no sort of complaint to make about the attention I have received when it has been my duty to bring the inventions of others to the notice of the various Service Departments. I have ha very great help from my noble friends Lord Sherwood, Lord Bruntisfield and Lord Cherwell whenever I have approached them on behalf of inventors who complained that they could not get attention. They have been most helpful in mobilizing the Departments under them to look into the matter. But of course every inventor must not think that I can interest myself in his invention. I suspect that there are many valuable inventions at the preesnt time being lost or bogged in the multitude of Committees and Sub-Committees which are scattered about London and in certain parts of the country.

On July 14 Mr. Oliver Lyttelton, the Minister of Production, speaking in the House of Commons, said that he and the Lord President of the Council at the present time—who is not in charge of scientific matters—were investigating the scientific organization of the Government. He said it would be found that this has reached a higher standard than was generally supposed. A few minutes later, in the same speech, the Minister of Production described the Joint War Production Staff set up last March as being composed of representatives of the three Services and of the Ministry of Production. He never said a word to suggest that there was a scientist upon it. My own impression from studying this matter, and from the information which I have received as a member of the Parliamentary Science Committee, which I have been from the beginning—and in passing I may say that I believe that that Committee has done very valuable work—is that while there are eminent scientists attached to the various Ministries, notably the Admiralty and the Air Ministry, their work is departmentalized. They sit on various Committees and do important work for the Departments, but there is no Scientific General Staff. There is a part-time body, the Scientific Advisory Committee, it is true, including Professor A. V. Hill, the member for Cambridge in another place. But to judge from the remarks made by Professor Hill from time to time it is hard for it to do useful work. I notice that whenever the Government are asking for a vote of confidence in another place, Professor Hill always votes against it. As he is one of the most eminent scientists to be found in either House, I think that that is rather significant.

The suggestion which I venture to put forward is not new and I was delighted to see that since I put my Motion on the Paper my noble friend Viscount Samuel produced a most interesting article in one of the Sunday newspapers last Sunday. I was overjoyed to note that he made a similar suggestion to that which I now venture to put before your Lordships. My proposal, and it has the support of members of both Houses of Parliament who have been working on this matter, is that there should be set up a Scientific General Staff consisting of a team of the best brains available in the British world of learning, working whole time, and with a prestige equal to that of the Chiefs of Staff Committee. The Chairman, who must be very specially chosen of course, should sit on the Defence Committee and attend meetings of the War Cabinet in an advisory capacity whenever required, and that should be nearly always. I go further therefore in this particular matter than my noble friend Lord Samuel.

My view that more could be done to mobilize the scientific knowledge and experience of the Empire seems to be widely supported, and I would remind your Lordships of the very lively correspondence which was published in The Times newspaper recently and supported by leading articles. As recently as July 22 a most remarkable article on the War Cabinet appeared in The Times. Your Lordships might not have been so surprised perhaps at my quoting it had it appeared in the Daily Herald. But I cannot refrain from doing so. I think these sentences are particularly noteworthy and, if your Lordships will allow me, I will read them: Authority at the centre must extend over the whole field. The great agglomeration of administrative organs cannot be steered and driven unless the War Cabinet has full and real control of policy and strategy. I here break off to remark that this is the real "Thunderer" of old times, the "Thunderer" of the great days of the past. The article goes on: Conversely, the administration must be shaped, where necessary, to allow of this control. Can there be effective strategic planning, for example, when there is no effective mechanism for the initiation and preparation of plans, when the professional supervision of planning is entrusted to Chiefs of Staff overburdened with executive cares, and when science is dill vainly trying to find its right place in this incomplete hierarchy.

I am the first to admit that in certain directions our scientific effort in preparation for war, and during the war, has been most admirable In this connexion I would mention radiolocation, antidotes to the new devilries of the German inventors in the shape of novel types of mines and aircraft design. In passing, I would like to say that I hope that in aircraft design we are still keeping ahead of our enemies. The very fact that we began to expand our armaments later than the Germans should have meant that we had better weapons and war inventions than they had. Yet I do not think that can be claimed over the whole field of munitions of war and war-like implements. It was certainly not the case—and here I speak with diffidence in the presence of my noble friend Lord Beaverbrook—when they were wanted on the field of battle, with regard to tanks and anti-tank artillery.

I have given the noble Lord, Lord Snell, who I understand is going to be good enough to reply on behalf of the Government, notice of one or two questions which I venture to put. Have our best scientists been asked to investigate the problem of more rapid and cheaper shipbuilding? Are we looking ahead to the next great development in war—the air-home Army? I venture to suggest that that great new tactical development is as important as the Panzer Division, and that it will be as far ahead of the Panzer Division as that Division was ahead of the Army organization which took the field in 1914. The next development will be this system of the carriage of whole Armies with their artillery, supplies, equipment and ammunition by air-transport. We have seen the beginnings of that already in this war. The attack on Crete was a small example of what can be done using aircraft to carry troops and munitions. It will not be merely a question of parachutists, but a whole Army with all its equipment will be carried by air. You see the beginnings of this development now on the Russian Front, where the Germans have got over the difficulty of making an Air Force mobile.

It is a most curious paradox that a force which in action is the most mobile of all Forces should yet, in a sense, have a very low standard of mobility, owing to the difficulty of moving the equipment for the aerodromes and the necessary ground staff, spare parts, repair apparatus and so on. The Germans have overcome the difficulty to a great extent by organizing a flying train—a great fleet of air transports which carry ground staffs, equipment, bombs, spare parts, ammunition and all the supporting paraphernalia required for the servicing of an air squadron. They carry these things by air. That is the point. This means that half-empty aerodromes to-day are rapidly tenanted by great squadrons ready for a sudden offensive to-morrow, supported and succoured by ground staffs carried by air wherever they are wanted. When we ask, "Why have not you sent more bombers to the East?" we are told that an Air Force is not really mobile because the ground staffs and means of repairing, the necessary equipment for the servicing of the squadrons, the petrol, oil, bombs and so on must be sent by ships. The answer should have been to send them by air, as the Germans are now doing on the Eastern Front, I am sorry to say to the discomfiture of our Ally.

That is going to be the next development, and we should be able to do far more than anything that the Germans have done or can do, in view of our immense manufacturing potentialities for aircraft in this country, and in view of the immense aircraft manufacturing resources of America behind us. As soon as this new principle of using the great mobility of the air in transporting striking Armies is appreciated and understood, we shall be able to do far more than the Germans. I feel very uneasy, however, about whether our people and leaders who have to take decisions at the centre of things to-day are even yet seized of this immense possible future development; I fear that they are still thinking in terms of the war of 1914–1918, or even of the Boer War. This is a matter in which scientists can help us immensely, and I would ask my noble friend whether we are looking ahead and considering this development. If he does not desire to do so, he need not reply to me in public, though for heaven's sake do not let us have a Secret Session to deal with this particular matter!

Have we surprises in store for the enemy when, as we have promised and pledged ourselves to do, we open a Second Front in Europe, or are we going to proceed by the old, classical methods outlined by my noble friend Lord Moyne in your Lordships' House last year, when I ventured to express regret that we had not opened up a Second Front? Lord Moyne said "Are you going to land men With rifles on open beaches?" That is what Nelson did in his amphibious operations. Are we going to attempt the same thing, with only the added advantage of motor barges, or are we going to hop over the elaborate defences and fortifications which the Germans are making along the whole of the Western coasts of Europe and take the thinly-spread defenders in the rear? Are we going to be really ahead of the enemy when we open a Second Front, by having a new technique and a new type of weapon, such as the scientists of this country can invent and design and develop in abundance if only we enable them to do so?

Have we the best scientists looking for the most effective means of countering U-boat attacks? My noble friend will say that the Board of Admiralty have been wise in enlisting the services of very eminent scientists, and that is true. I know some of them, and they are admirable and devoted public servants. But they look on everything to do with sea warfare as their own particular preserve, and if, for example, the most eminent physicists that this country has produced managed to find some wonderful means of combating the U-boat, if they were not in the service of the Admiralty they would have the greatest difficulty in breaking through the entanglements of departmentalism which surround each little team of scientists attached to separate Government Departments. My noble friend Lord Snell, who has been looking into this matter in order to reply to my Motion, will be forced, however reluctantly, to confirm what I say.

Do we really encourage inventors in this country? In this connexion, let me draw your Lordships' attention to what has already been done by our American Allies. The American scientific world seems to have been fully mobilized already, although the Americans have been in the war for only seven or eight months. There was a remarkable article in the Manchester Guardian of July 10 last, in which this extraordinary organization was described. I will deal first with the results. So far, more than a hundred devices put forward by scientists in America have been officially adopted by the American Army and Navy, and several of these are considered to be of the greatest importance. The Office of Scientific Research and Development— which is just the sort of organization for which I am pleading, and for which the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, and others in this country have asked—is directed by the very well-known Dr. Vannevar Bush, the President of the Carnegie Institute in Washington. It spends $75,000,000 a year, and it is cheap at the price, if they get results of the kind to which I have already referred. It has a team of 1,200 scientific workers, including virtually all the outstanding scientists of the United States in all fields which bear any possible relation to the war effort. America has numbed the whole scientific brotherhood of the United States and taken the best brains, who are being put to work on finding means for winning the war quickly, and as painlessly as possible. I want to ask my noble friend what link exists between the scientists engaged in our war work and this American organization, and what link there is between the Russian scientists, who are doing outstanding work, and our scientists.

Again, in America there is a National Inventors Council, under Mr. Charles Kettering, himself a famous inventor, and in peace-time Director of Research for General Motors. They invite inventors throughout the country to send in plans, suggestions and proposals. Think of that! An inventor here who sends in a proposal is treated almost as if he were a madman or a criminal, and he has the greatest difficulty in getting any attention at all; but in America the inventor is invited to send in his proposals, and all the proposals submitted are investigated. About one in a thousand found to be useful. For a period during the last war, I had this job myself at the Admiralty, and I know that it needs very great patience, diligence and faith to carry on with it, because a great many so-called inventors are merely cranks; but if you are patient and approach the matter with a scientific mind—and I had, of course, scientists to help me—you can occasionally get from the great mass of material something that is valuable. We found that at the Admiralty, and the ideas so obtained were of great service to the State.

Among the devices which the Americans have already developed by means of this organization, since the war began, are certain new explosives, which I hope the Germans are going to know all about very soon, and a war vehicle to travel on land and water—not an amphibian tank, but something which goes a great deal further than that. We are pooling shipping and materials with the United States, but are we pooling our brains with them? Are we pooling our brains with the Russians? The trouble with Service Departments on both sides of the Atlantic, and I dare say in Russia as well, is that with professional soldiers and sailors there is always what I may call a "sales resistance" to new discoveries. Although things are better now, the Admiralty's record in the past over steam engines, breech-loading guns, and paravanes has been appalling, as has also been the record of the War Office over tanks in the last war, and in this war in regard to anti-tank mines and anti-tank guns. There has been a sales resistance in both those great Departments of State. The Air Ministry, I believe, has been much better; it is a newer Department.

I should like to ask what steps are taken by the War Cabinet to break down this sales resistance? If there is something which is going to be of value to us in the war, what means are taken to force it down the throats of the Service Staffs if necessary? I will give one example. I am told on very good authority that Mr. Constantinesco, who invented the synchronized firing of machine guns from aero planes during the last war, a Rumanian scientist of great eminence, has designed a motor torpedo-boat capable of travelling 200 miles an hour in a rough sea; yet he cannot get a hearing. As I say, I am informed of that on good authority. I have not seen Mr. Constantinesco for some years, and I did not get this information from him; I had it from a colleague of mine in another place.

As to the neglect and misuse of scientists generally, which I am sorry to say still takes place, in spite of the tributes which I have paid, I have in my hands a twenty-five page memorandum on the use of our scientific and technical resources, drawn up by the Association of Scientific Workers, and containing chapter and verse for their complaints of overlapping, neglect, want of use, misdirection and things of that kind. They have sent copies to the Minister of Production, the Trade Union Congress and other authorities. I suggest that the first job of the Scientific Central Committee or Board or Scientific General Staff—call it what you will—which I hope will be established, should be to investigate these complaints by the Association of Scientific Workers. They are very fully documented, and I shall be very glad to send my noble friend a copy if he would like to have it. I beg to move.

VISCOUNT SAMUEL

My Lords, I feel sure that your Lordships will agree that the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, has rendered a useful service in introducing this subject, which, as he says, has already once or twice been before your Lordships' House; indeed I had the privilege myself in the early part of last year of moving a Resolution in not dissimilar terms to that which is now before your Lordships. At that time the reply on behalf of the Government was made by the noble Lord, Lord Hankey, who was able to announce that the Government had appointed a Scientific Advisory Committee of the War Cabinet, and he explained the work that that Committee was intending to do and the organization by which it meant to achieve it. That was received with much satisfaction, and for a long time there were very few complaints such as have been heard in this House to-day and have recently been heard in the Press and elsewhere.

Certainly no one would deny for a moment, indeed we should all emphasize the fact, that British science has achieved very great things, that there have been in many directions a splendid initiative and most remarkable inventions from this country, which have given leadership to the world. It is quite certain that in our aircraft production, for example, we have been for a long time, and probably are now, in advance certainly of any European country. If that had not been so the results of the Battle of Britain would have been very different. But nevertheless, there have been, as I say, of late very serious complaints. Those who are not inside the administrative machine find it difficult to judge how far these complaints are justified, and whether there may be some exaggeration in them. Possibly they may be too sweeping. I am not sure that it is true to say, as the noble Lord has just said, that anyone in this country who presents a new invention to the Government is regarded as a criminal—no, certainly that is an exaggeration.

LORD STRABOLGI

No, a crank.

VISCOUNT SAMUEL

A crank or a criminal. Well, I do not know that that is necessarily true. Certainly there is an Inventions Board which investigates all these proposals, and without doubt the vast majority of them are altogether impracticable. But, as I say, anyone who, like myself, is not in the closest touch with the administrative machine finds it difficult to form a decided opinion. Nevertheless, the reports which reach us all are too many and too specific and too detailed to make it possible to doubt that there is in general substance in them. The noble Lord has referred to the Parliamentary and Scientific Committee. That is, as your Lordships are aware, a non-official body, consisting of a number of members of the House of Commons, a smaller number of members of your Lordships' House, and representatives of a very large number of engineering and chemical institutes and of other industries which are based upon applied science. It contains also representatives of that very useful body the Association of Scientific Workers.

That Committee, having at several meetings heard a number of these complaints, including the memorandum from the association to which the noble Lord has just referred, decided that their best course would be to lay the whole matter before the Government, and with that end in view they sought an interview with the present Chairman, the successor to Lord Hankey, of the Scientific Advisory Committee of the Cabinet. It is now Mr. Butler, the President of the Board of Education, and he received us—I had the honour as President of the Parliamentary and Scientific Committee of introducing the deputation—and gave the closest attention to what was said to him. There was really a remarkable series of spokesmen, some of the heads of great industrial corporations, the authorized representatives of these various professional institutes of the different industries, research professors, representatives of the Association of Scientific Workers, and members of your Lordships' House and of another place; and there was expressed at that deputation a sense of frustration. That is the popular word at the present time, and it expresses very precisely what was the complaint which was addressed to the Government on that occasion. The spirit of departmentalism which has long been rife in this country, as in most countries, unquestionably is a barrier to the adoption of the various proposals with sufficient speed. In the long run possibly they may be successful in making their way, but we are not waging a war in the long run, we are waging it very much in the short run. It is of vital importance that there should be everywhere this pressing sense of urgency, and that these matters should be dealt with day by clay and hour by hour, and not handed from one Committee to another for leisurely investigation.

The Scientific Advisory Committee of the War Cabinet, as I say, performed a useful function and such complaints were in abeyance for a long time. It is a very small body of men of the highest qualifications. It includes the President and the two Secretaries of the Royal Society, one of the two being Dr. A. V. Hill, who has rendered invaluable service in this connexion, and two or three others of similar high qualifications. But they are all men under extreme pressure of work. Perhaps it would he unfair to say they can only give to this Committee the odds and ends of their time, but they certainly cannot give it their chief attention. And similarly the present Chairman is the head of a great Department of State, he is President of the Board of Education, and he is engaged not only in many tasks of great urgency arising out of war conditions but also, as we know, is planning a very wide educational policy, to be put into effect after the war: a man of keen mind and of great constructive energy, much interested in this particular duty, but unable—he cannot be expected—to give to it the close attention which the urgency and volume of the undertaking require.

Now what proposal is to be made? The noble Lord who has just spoken suggested that we should learn a lesson from the American organization, and those who are intimately acquainted with the whole matter do consider that the American organization is superior to our own. Under Dr. Bush there is that great system which has just been described by my noble friend Lord Strabolgi. I concur that it is something on those lines which we should adopt here in Great Britain. Whether it should he precisely on those lines and, if not, what the modifications should be, only those who have the most intimate knowledge of the whole subject here and there could possibly effectively say. I confess I do not like the title that was suggested by my noble friend Lord Strabolgi, a Scientific General Staff. I think that is rather an ad captandum title, it has rather a journalistic touch about it, and I do not think it would earn a very friendly reception for the new body from the military, naval and air Services. The words "General Staff" are very clearly understood, and to have a number of scientists and engineers and others bearing that title would, I think, possibly secure for them rather a cold reception when they were in close contact with the real and genuine General Staffs. Whether it should be called the Joint Scientific Board or the Central Scientific Board—whatever it might be—is a matter of small importance that would be decided by the Government after the best consideration they could give to it.

The important points are, I think, these. First, it should have a Chairman who has sufficient status and authority to give to the whole organization prestige and influence. If he could be a member of the War Cabinet so much the better, with a Deputy Chairman to undertake the day-to-day duties. It happens that there is a member of the War Cabinet who is a man of scientific training with a keen interest in all these matters. If he could devote sufficient time from his duties—he has no departmental obligations—he would be the one who would be, in my view, the most effective Chairman for the purpose. Whether that is practicable or not I do not know. It is important that a Chairman should not be appointed who would have to learn the whole matter from the beginning. You must have someone with an understanding of science in relation to industry. The suggestion that has been widely made is that the membership should be very small, but, above all, that the members should devote the whole of their time to this work. They should sit full hours every day, and make it their sole business from now on to keep track of all the different developments, and make the necessary contact with the various Departments concerned.

Such a body, committee, council, or office—whatever it may be named—would have to be in the closest touch with the directors of scientific research in the three Service Departments, in the Ministry of Aircraft Production, the Ministry of Supply, and also the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, and other bodies. No doubt they would have to have a large number of associates in touch with various departments of the scientific and industrial world, and able to form a liaison between the central body and the whole of the immense ramifications of our great machine. That is the suggestion which has been put forward, and which I have no doubt is now under the consideration of His Majesty's Government. Whatever organization is adopted, I submit in conclusion, it should not be rigid. It should not be necessarily a formalized system to be created now once and for all, but it should be created according to the needs of the time, with power to grow, with power to add to ifs numbers, perhaps, and to develop in various directions as the results of experience and the requirements of the situation demand.

LORD HANKEY

My Lords, when I came down to the House this afternoon I hardly expected to have to speak, but as the first Chairman of the Scientific Advisory Committee and of the Engineering Advisory Committee I ought perhaps to say a few words. When I was asked to undertake that work, in each case I felt it was not such an easy job as it looked. The terms of reference were very limited, especially in the case of the Scientific Advisory Committee. The main terms of reference were, "to advise the Government on any scientific problems referred to it." I suppose your Lordships might expect, in the case of such a Committee containing names of such distinction, that Government Departments would be falling over one another to refer questions to it. I was under no such illusions. I had worked a great many years with another, possibly even more distinguished, body called the Committee of Imperial Defence. When I joined it in 1908 I found, to my great surprise, that hardly anything was being referred to it by Government Departments. I was only Assistant Secretary, but I looked round to get work—literally looked round to get work—for the Committee. There were all sorts of methods. One would go to friends in Government Departments. One would go to Ministers—Lord Haldane was a great helper—and Sir Charles Ottley, my Chief, would go to the Prime Minister, and get them to refer questions. Although we were the tail, I am afraid in that respect the tail sometimes had, through indirect channels, to wag the dog.

When I began this work I realized that really these Committees would have to take their own initiative. The modus operandi in each case was that I invited the Committees to begin by ascertaining what the position was of science in Government and, in the case of the other Committee, of engineering in Government. We conducted very elaborate inquiries. We had very great help from Government Departments, from scientific bodies, from individual scientists, and from manufacturers, and the last time I addressed your Lordships on this subject I gave you some account of the official work of the Scientific Advisory Committee. If I had lived a little longer in official life I should have given your Lordships a similar account of the work of the Engineering Advisory Committee.

In both cases the Committees themselves were surprised to find how much and how elaborate was the scientific work of all the Government Departments, not only the Service Departments, or most of them, not only the Supply Departments, but it also extended far away into medical research, agricultural research, civil defense, and many other departments of which on that occasion I gave an account. What was true of science was true to a great extent also of engineering. Nevertheless the Committees naturally found that science and engineering were better in some respects than in others, and they made a great many recommendations most of which have been adopted. For instance, the Scientific Advisory Committee made recommendations—it did more, it definitely arranged with Departments including that of the noble Lord on my right (Lord Beaverbrook), who was in charge of that work—for very close liaison with the United States of America. I feel quite sure that the noble Lord, Lord Snell, when he comes to reply, will be able to reassure Lord Strabolgi about our knowledge of what is going on in that country. I should be very surprised if that is not so, though some of these developments have taken place since my association came to an end.

We made recommendations about some of the other things the noble Lord men- tioned—for instance, inventions. We ourselves received a very large number of inventions, and saw that they were looked after. It is absolutely true that an enormous proportion of the inventions that are received are of no value, and others received are of value, but because there is such an enormous amount of research going on inside Government Departments, which you very often cannot possibly expose to outsiders, rather unsatisfactory replies are made. The thing has been anticipated, and yet there you are. I remember in the last war, after the invention of the tank, and after the thing was in fill exploitation, some Belgians were brought to me who had almost exactly the same idea. I was never more embarrassed than in knowing how to handle them. The tank was being kept as the deadly secret of the war. I could not give away that we had the whole thing, but naturally they felt very hurt afterwards because they were not told. That happens again and again.

The noble Lord spoke of a hundred inventions by American scientists being taken up. I should like to know how many inventions have been made in connexion with the different aspects of radio and radiolocation alone. I spend half my time at present in collecting, training and scrounging for young scientists and engineers to handle these things that are coming out. Last time I spoke here I said that the young scientist was not being fully used. Now I speak of the difficulties of getting enough young scientists. Every university has its bursaries, and I suppose quite a hundred technical colleges are training these people. I really do not believe that in these particular respects we are in the least behindhand.

When these Committees had concluded the big reviews and made a number of recommendations, there were quite a lot of loose ends. The next step was to follow them up. What we wanted was to get the confidence of Departments like the Committee of Imperial Defence. Once we got their confidence then the flow would come from the other end. It is no vice in the Departments that they do not come to a body like that. It simply is that everybody is frightfully busy and overworked. That makes them rather self-centred, and they do not go to an outside body until that body has won their confidence and made its usefulness felt. Until then such a body does not reach its full usefulness. That is what we were trying to build up. I had brought the two bodies together. We had quite a number of inquiries touching both science and engineering, so that the opportunity came to sit together in panels; not always the same group but different groups very often sat together, and that is where I left it. I was asked to retain the Chairmanship of both these bodies, and I considered the matter very seriously, but I knew that to carry the work further and to get right into close contact with the Departments it did require a Minister of Cabinet rank. I felt it could not be done without Cabinet rank, and so, with great reluctance, I gave it up and it was taken up by Mr. Butler, who is very keen and I know has handled it with very great ability. Even so, I knew that the difficulties were going to be rather great.

The scientists have heard of setbacks here and setbacks there, and the public and others said our tanks were inferior or something else was inferior The engineers felt that rather gravely. Then there were shipping losses. The scientists felt that there was a kind of reflection on science and the engineers felt there was a kind of reflection on engineering that these things had happened. There was a sense of frustration, the word which the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, used, and it is the only word to use in this connexion because it exactly describes what they did feel. Therefore I was not very surprised when I heard that there was a movement of scientists and engineers working to get rather more into the picture, to get people in whole-time instead of part-time, realizing, as I think they did, that they must win the confidence of the Departments. I was very glad to read the article of the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, in the last issue of the Sunday Times, and I was glad to hear what he said to-day. I have very great sympathy indeed with this movement, but I am really not quite sufficiently informed to discuss it in detail. I do not think the American system is quite applicable to us as it stands. It must be done mutatis mutandis. Moreover, the whole question is, as I understand from what fell just now from Lord Samuel, sub judice, so I will only say two things.

My advice, for what it is worth, would be first of all to the Government to make as much use of science as they possibly can; not to use it only in Supply Depart- ments but to extend it even further than they have extended it to operations. And when I talk of operations, I would even dare to include planning. I believe that scientists can make a contribution to planning. I have been so much in touch with them that I am quite convinced of that, and that they should be brought into some association with it, I will not say exactly how. To scientists I would say "Don't open your mouths quite too wide at first, don't expect absolutely everything you are asking for straight away," because it may be that when scientists really get inside they will see for themselves that that is not the way to do it. "Get a further step if the Government will give it to you now, and be content for the moment with that." When I say that I agree very much with my noble friend Lord Samuel that this is not a time to delay. But it may be a case of the more haste the less speed if you rush in with too many people and with too elaborate an organization. Go as fast as you can but go at the fastest economic speed, so to speak. I finish by saying to the scientists: "Once you have established the right contacts your sheer ability, used with tact and energy, will do the rest."

VISCOUNT BLEDISLOE

My Lords, after listening to the noble Lord, Lord Hankey, I am bound to say that I feel very strongly that there is in more senses than one a sense of frustration abroad in regard to this enormously important problem of harnessing the results of science to the war effort. Speaking for myself, and I believe for many others in this country who have a profound belief in scientific research and its due and prompt application to the problems that we have to face, I am bound to say that it is a little unsettling when the noble Lord at the head of a Department, obviously in entire sympathy with the progressive working of it, abandons that task and no longer is a member of His Majesty's Government. I am equally disturbed when I find that a man of the eminence of Sir Henry Tizard, who until recently was directing the scientific side of aircraft production, is transferred to the headship of an Oxford College.

I would like to congratulate and thank the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, as President of the Parliamentary and Scientific Committee, for the very valuable work which that Committee has done during the last few months in bringing this problem to the close attention of the various Government Departments. When the noble Lord, Lord Hankey, says that on the initiation of the Scientific Advisory Committee hardly anything was referred to it by Government Departments, my answer would be that the Government Departments themselves are not scientifically minded, and that a very small proportion of the large staffs of the various Departments concerned in the war effort have either knowledge of or sympathy with science in any respect whatever. Over and over again I have heard both in your Lordships' House and in another place observations to the effect that after all the British people are the most unscientific and most illogical people in the world. That may be so, and if it is so I think it is reflected very naturally in our Government Departments. It is a very dangerous thing if during the perilous crisis which now confronts us it retards and obstructs the passage of scientific discovery or inventions of real value to the war effort and prevents them from reaching those who might put them into useful operation. That is what the Parliamentary and Scientific Committee have discovered to be the case as a result of the deliberations of people of the highest scientific achievement as well as others who are sympathetic and who are members of one or other House of Parliament.

I hope the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, will forgive me if I read three paragraphs from the memorandum of that Committee presented to the Government in this regard. The memorandum says: Although we possess innumerable research workers of the highest ability they are too often insufficiently harnessed to research work connected with the war or to the operation of scientific control in the fighting Services or war production. Plenty of scientific workers have, it is true, been taken into war industry, but our basic structure of scientific employment has still to be brought properly up to date. Too many trained scientists are still either working in non-essential occupations or working below their actual capacity in essential activities. Then comes what I regard as the most significant and valuable paragraph of that memorandum: Many scientific workers are conscious that they might do still more for the national effort. Either they are employed in some activity that is not directly necessary to the war or they are employed under conditions which prevent the full development or application of scientific methods. To a large extent this latter consideration arises because the scientific worker is entirely subordinate to the administrator, who may be completely lacking in scientific or technical knowledge. The younger scientists are not given enough incentive to develop their inventive capacity. The senior scientists occupy merely advisory positions with no responsibility for the consequences which follow from the rejection or acceptance of their advice. That paragraph alone to my mind, unless it can be refuted, is quite sufficient justification for the establishment of a new body in close touch with the heads of Departments and with the Prime Minister, preferably called by some such title as my noble friend Viscount Samuel suggests. I think he suggests that it should be a central scientific board presided over, if possible, by some Cabinet Minister of acknowledged scientific eminence. My noble friend suggested that there is such a person. If there is, then surely during the present war that is his optimum usefulness and that is the job which to the exclusion of all others he ought to be asked to undertake.

VISCOUNT SAMUEL

Scientific training I think I said.

VISCOUNT BLEDISLOE

I do not know the early academic history of all our Cabinet Ministers but even a scientific training is better than nothing, and I do not think we have a sufficient degree of scientific training in most of the personnel of cur Government or of the heads of our Government Departments at the present time. There is in this country, I suggest, to a larger extent than in any other civilized country in the world, a lacuna or gap between scientific research and the application of its more useful results. I should like to ask the noble Lord who will reply to this debate one question to supplement those put by the noble Lord opposite. To what extent are discoverers able to put their discoveries before the heads of Departments?

Before I finish I should like to acknowledge with satisfaction the announcement made by the Minister of Agriculture in another place yesterday, in regard to the greater measure of scientific application to the war-time needs of the farming community. I do not think it is an exaggeration to say that the problem of our food supplies becomes increasingly a matter of public and official anxiety. It is satisfactory to notice that both the Minister of Food and the Minister of Agriculture are bending their minds most energetically to this problem of how to win from our own soil the largest possible quantity of essential food. They have realized, and they have confessed that they have realized, that there has been in the past all too scanty application of agricultural science to the practice of farming in this country. Many of us have realized that for years. We have some of the most eminent agricultural research workers in the whole world. Having travelled in most civilized countries on tours of agricultural investigation during the past forty years, I have found that not only are the discoveries of scientists in other countries being more rapidly and more enthusiastically applied to the needs of what is after all the greatest and most vital industry, but that other countries are applying to a greater extent and more rapidly the results of our own British research.

Very often long before we have begun to apply them on any large scale in this country they are being applied to the requirements of agriculture in other countries. I do not think there is any sphere of national activity in the past—discounting what has been happening during what I may call the hectic period of agricultural activity during the last two years—in which to so dangerous an extent we have failed to apply the discoveries of our eminent research workers to the needs of the industry which they are so well calculated to serve. The trouble is that scientific discoveries are made and scientific research is conducted, and the results of those discoveries and that research are not rapidly or sympathetically brought into the sphere where they can be best utilized. I do not want to say anything else except that I am glad that this matter has come once more before your Lordships. I only wish that there were more noble Lords sitting on these Benches and displaying their sympathy with this subject, for none could be more important. I most cordially endorse the suggestion made by the noble Lord, and amended by the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, as to the eminent desirability of a special central organization, not advisory only but in a position to carry out in practice, at the behest of the Government, what is most required in bringing science and scientific opinion to bear upon our war effort.

LORD SNELL

My Lords, I share with your Lordships the view that the discussion which has just taken place has been of a most interesting and vitally important character. The time which has been given to it could scarcely have been given to any more important phase of our national life. But the speeches to which we have listened when they did not imply, or assert rather, that the Government had failed to make use of the valuable scientific knowledge in our country, almost made specific statements in that respect. As I understood it, the argument is that scientific proposals when submitted get caught up in a vast mass of official machinery and endless conflicting Committees, and that such proposals as emerge from these serious ordeals are either too late to be fully effective or have been so modified that their original value is greatly reduced. It is further implied, or asserted—not here to-day but outside—that defeats which have occurred in the field have been due to our inferiority in guns and in armour. Now these are very serious criticisms, but they are serious only if they are well founded. To the extent that these criticisms are based upon mere feeling they arouse a certain apprehension in the country which is not good for our war effort at the present time. Everyone will agree that all suggestions that are made should be most carefully examined and with all convenient speed, and when they have been examined and approved, if approved they are, they should be at once put into full operation.

Agreeing with that in principle, your Lordships, if you have any knowledge of the temperament of inventors, will know that there are always a great number of disappointed inventors who are unable to induce others to share their own enthusiasms for the things that are in their minds. That sense of frustration—to use a word which is becoming popular—is not limited to inventors. All of us who are engaged in social and political work have daily to suffer these frustrations through a long period of years, and yet our faith in the democratic institutions of our country is not reduced on that account. Many of the proposals that have been made may not be entirely practicable but they are not overlooked. Inventors have been encouraged by His Majesty's Government; you might almost say that they have been pampered. Each great Supply Department has a specially trained section of scientists who deal with hundreds of suggestions every week. Each suggestion is examined and a reply varying with the quality of the suggestion is given in each case. There is full co-ordination between the sections at the Supply Departments so as to ensure that no possible line of utility is overlooked.

A great number of proposals, as your Lordships may assume, are either opposed to the invariable principles of scientific knowledge, or are not immediately practicable, or have, already, wholly or in part, been adopted. When I was a student of economic history I remember reading about a period of invention during which there appeared one inventor who aimed to become a benefactor of the human race and who applied for a patent to protect a device for raising the wind. His idea, which, had it succeeded, would have been universally popular, would have saved many of us from a great many anxieties. But, alas! its promise was not fulfilled. There are a great many proposals of a semi-scientific nature of which a Government cannot avail themselves for immediate purposes.

Science is, of course, an indispensable feature of our national life. I do not agree with the suggestion that we are slower in our scientific uptake than other nations; I think that the history of our country over a long period will show that we have been as alert as other nations to the importance of scientific discovery. It is evident that our inventors, at any rate in the past, have been able to break through whatever obstacles may have existed in their path. The real point, however, is that at all times and in all circumstances and under any Government which may exist, under our system of democratic government the Minister must in the end be personally responsible. Parliament is the supreme authority. The Minister is responsible to Parliament, and we cannot allow any set of men, however eminent, to put their judgment before the judgment of the Minister, unless we are to make very serious inroads into the doctrine of Ministerial responsibility and into our normal democratic system. I suggest that the right thing is for scientists to work in co-operation with the Minister who has to bear the responsibility.

It has been suggested that what is needed is a Scientific General Staff. The idea appears to be that this body should have direct access to the War Cabinet or to the Defence Committee, and that it should have authority over the great Departmental organizations, or that its advice should be taken in preference to the advice of those organizations. I would ask the supporters of this idea to consider how it can be reconciled with our system of government, and in particular with the individual responsibility of Ministers of the Crown. It is clear, I think, that it cannot be so reconciled. Decisions must be taken by Ministers who are responsible for the consequences of those decisions, and it is to the responsible Ministers that the War Cabinet in the first place must look for advice. Nor could the executive heads of the organizations for scientific research in the great Government Departments be expected to continue to exercise their great responsibilities with enthusiasm and courage if their decisions were at any moment liable to be overridden by some central body of scientists. I do not wish, however, to give the impression that the present organization is regarded by the Government as necessarily perfect. That organization is not static, and the Government are continually considering methods by which it may be supplemented or improved. It may be that something further can still be done to this end, and I can assure your Lordships that full consideration will be given to everything that has been said in this debate.

With all our admiration of scientific achievement we need to remember, of course, the equally great achievement of our nation in the development of a democratic form of government, and we have to take care that nothing undermines the strength of that. Science, as Herbert Spencer said, is only organized knowledge. Oliver Wendell Holmes once said: "Science is a first-rate piece of furniture for a man's upper-chamber, if he has common sense on the ground floor." We want to combine common sense with a full appreciation of all that the scientists have given to us and yet may give. Science has made great contributions even in the present war, as my noble friend Lord Strabolgi has said, in the antimagnetic mine device, in radiolocation and in other ways with which I cannot pause to deal. The Government are aware of the help that scientists can give. They deeply appreciate all that scientists have done, and it is impossible for us to believe that the Government have ignored, belittled or hindered scientific progress or the application of science to our national needs when so much is at stake.

The Motion of my noble friend Lord Strabolgi appears to deal only with actual war operations, but the whole field of science has to be considered, and not merely guns and armour. The Government have established, for example, a Medical Research Council and a Flying Personnel Research Committee, and these have almost as much to do with the successful prosecution of the war as have actual weapons of war. It may interest your Lordships if in a very few minutes—I am sorry to detain you, but, after all, the Government case must be given—I attempt to show what it is that the Government have done and are doing at the present time. The Lord President of the Council is the member of the War Cabinet who has special responsibilities for the general management of the broader aspects of scientific effort in its relation to the Government, and two main Committees have been set up; the Scientific Advisory Committee, composed of men of outstanding scientific experience, and the Engineering Inquiry Committee, composed of engineers. The Chairman of those Committees was at first my noble friend Lord Hankey, and I know that your Lordships will permit me at this juncture, not only on my own behalf but on behalf of you all, to pay tribute to the work which Lord Hankey did when he was charged with such great responsibilities. He brought to his work not only zeal but a long specialized experience.

These Committees, when they began their work, first of all looked around them, and in March, 1941, after a five months' survey of the situation, the Scientific Advisory Committee made a Report and gave enthusiastic support to things as they then found them. In view of the criticisms which have been made, it may be desirable, and also reassuring, to quote a few of the things which they said. Some of the main points of their Report are as follows: The main conclusion that we should draw from our survey of the scientific activities of the various Government Departments, and particularly of the Defence Services, is that they are far more extensive, and far more effective, than is commonly realized. We are convinced that much of the criticism that has been offered on this score has been due to a lack of knowledge of the facts. Then, in answer to the criticism that the Government have failed to make effective use of the services of outside scientists, the Committee stated: In answer to this particular criticism we may say that the documents that we have considered contain the names of 283 senior scientists, for the most part not permanent members of the staff of Government Departments, who are at present engaged on official scientific work. … we have little doubt that in the more important fields the great majority of those who are especially well-fitted to assist our war effort have already been given an opportunity to do so Referring to junior scientific workers, the Committee accept the difficult problem involved, but say "we believe that in general criticism of the present system is quite unjustified." Almost unnecessarily the Committee reassert this by recording their general satisfaction with the range and effectiveness of the Government's scientific activities and their belief that much of the criticism that has been expressed has resulted from a lack of knowledge of the facts. In commenting on the existing organization of the scientific activities of the Defence Services we have stressed the great value that has been shown to derive from the close co-operation at every stage of research, development, and production, between the operational and scientific staffs. I do not know that I need to read any further extracts from that Report, except perhaps in regard to the matter of delay, which has been referred to this afternoon. The Committee state that they have been "favourably impressed with the existing organizations for scientific research" and that In view of the supreme urgency of speed, in a war that may depend in large part on the relative efficiency of the belligerents at some critical phase, we would urge that all possible steps should be taken to remedy any existing factors that make for delay.

VISCOUNT SAMUEL

I understand that is a Report of the Scientific Advisory Committee of the War Cabinet. Could the noble Lord tell us on what date that was issued, and also whether the Report has been published?

LORD SNELL

I cannot give the noble Viscount the information as to whether it has been published or not, but the Committee reported in March, 1941, as I previously said.

VISCOUNT SAMUEL

If the Report has not been published, which I think is the case, I should like to ask the noble Lord whether the rule which applies in another place also applies in your Lordships' House—namely, that no official document may be quoted which is not put upon the Table of the House for the information of members. I do not want to press the noble Lord unduly, but I am sure that that Report would be of very great interest to the House and to the public, although now somewhat out of date; and, as it has been quoted by a Minister in a Ministerial statement, I would ask him whether it would not be proper that it should now be made available to members generally

LORD SNELL

I will see that that point is considered, but meanwhile I have done something to make some of its contents known. In regard to ideas, which we are told are always very unwelcome, the Committee say that out of 317 letters recived in a certain period and referred by them to the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, 243 were forwarded without inquiry to the responsible Departments. This shows two unnecessary links, as, had those letters been forwarded directly to the Department concerned, they would have been dealt with earlier.

I had perhaps better say a word about the future work of the Committee. They said: It seems to us the Committee is well suited to convey to the Cabinet through the Lord President of the Council the considered and agreed opinion of the scientific staffs of Government Departments, and of representative outside scientists, on any scientific problem in which the Government is interested. The Engineering Advisory Committee, to which I have not referred, was set up in April, 1941, after the first Report of the Scientific Advisory Committee had been dealt with. After seven months they reported on mechanical and electrical undertakings and gave a general report of what was being done. Since these expressions of satisfaction were made by men who at least knew the facts as they then were the Government have not been notified of any change of mind. Moreover, the Government on their own initiative have introduced many alternative proposals with a view to efficiency. I need not delay your Lordships by quoting the details of these, but there is the Aeronautical Research Committee and the Advisory Committee of the Ministry of Supply, with many formidable names attached to them.

Questions have been asked by Lord Strabolgi and others to which I will attempt some kind of a reply, first of all in regard to an airborne army, about which the noble Lord was anxious to have information. The Government is certainly looking ahead but not through a telescope so that it sees one point only magnified out of all proportion to the rest of the vast arena. The resources required for the immense amount of equipment essential for an air-borne operation on a very large scale must be kept in balance with other requirements over the whole field. It would he fatal to detract too much from other air efforts and thus jeopardize the command of the air, which is an essential preliminary to air-borne operations. Then my noble friend Lord Strabolgi, rather naïvely I thought for him, asked whether we had any surprises in store for the enemy. Well, whatever surprises we may have in store would cease to be surprises if I were to announce them in your Lordships' House. I therefore am not able to answer the question that he has put. Then, in regard to contact with America, there is full and constant interchange of scientific information, both through scientists attached to missions in each country, and through a special central scientific office in Washington and in London.

A charge was made that inventors had the greatest difficulty in getting heard, that in some cases they could not break through that wall of resistance and were not heard. The name of Mr. Colin Constantinesco was mentioned. The Admiralty have the greatest regard, I am told, for the brilliance of this gentleman's mind, but, even so, they cannot be expected to place orders for something about which he will not disclose the drawings or the details. The First Lord of the Admiralty has even gone so far as to give Mr. Constantinesco a personal assurance of adequate safeguards against any form of exploitation of information disclosed, bat this has been refused by Mr. Constantinesco, who prefers to have his boat built by private enterprise. Immediately anything concrete made available to the Admiralty, they will at once subject it to examination and trials. That is as much information as I can give to the noble Lord on that point.

There is only one other point I should like to touch upon. It relates to Sir Henry Tizard. Sir Henry was not directing scientific matters at the Ministry of Aircraft Production. He gave that up and became Scientific Adviser. We have no knowledge of his intention of giving up this because of his acceptance of the appointment at Magdalen College. It is by no means certain that Sir Henry will give up that appointment, because we ought to remember that both Sir William Beveridge and Sir Will Spens have also had duplicate undertakings of that character. I need not delay further except to say that the Admiralty employ, and take advice from, hundreds of scientists at universities, private firms, etc., although shipbuilding is more a matter for marine engineers. Lord Strabolgi referred to 1,200 scientists in America being in war work. For what it is worth, the number employed in our three Supply Departments alone is 4,000 directly and 145 eminent outside advisers.

I hope I have said enough to show that, after all, the Government have something to say for their own record. I am not expected to know intimately the details of these scientific Committees, and I have tried my best, at very short notice, to explain as far as I can the attitude of the Government in this matter, the scope of their work, and their attitude towards scientists and inventors. The answer to Lord Strabolgi's question is that far more scientific research work is going on than is generally realized. While the Government cannot be satisfied with anything less than the proved best, they feel there has been good progress, that many most valuable contributions have been made by scientific workers, and more are still to come. The Government appreciate most sincerely all that scientists have done, and wish to encourage them in their work, but that work must be in co-operation with the Minister. Nevertheless there may be ways of improving certain relationships, and some accommodation may be possible to remove from the minds of scientists, if they feel so, the sense of frustration which has been mentioned. This will receive the immediate and full consideration of the Lord President of the Council and others concerned.

LORD STRABOLGI

My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord personally for the trouble he has taken with his reply, only two facts prevent me from pressing my Motion for Papers, so unsatisfactory do I find the reply to be. The two facts are, first, I do not wish to be accused of springing a Division on the Government, or of want of respect for my noble friend Lord Templemore; and, secondly, the fact that there are not many of your Lordships here at the moment, so that the Division figures might give an entirely wrong impression. I found the noble Lord's reply profoundly disturbing and unsatisfactory. The only consolation I have is that my colleagues in another place, in respect of these matters, have been waiting for my noble friend's reply, and they intend to press matters further. I hope they will be more successful with the Government than I have been to-day. May I thank those noble Lords who have taken part? I was particularly impressed with Lord Bledisloe's most serious charge—it does of course affect the war effort immensely—that the results of our scientific research work are not taken advantage of. I hope the noble Viscount will press the Government further on this point and perhaps bring up a special Motion as soon as possible. I can promise him that my noble friends on this side will support him.

My noble friend Lord Snell completely misunderstood my suggestion. I still stick to my proposal for a Scientific General Staff. You have to use that term to give it the necessary prestige—there are too many Committees already. But I never suggested it should have executive control. It should be only advisory just as the Planning Committees in the Admiralty or in other Service Departments and the Joint Planning Committee itself are advisory. They work on problems and schemes as directed and are advisory. My noble friend, I am sorry to say, completely misunderstood my idea. Just look at the results to date. What surprises have we provided for the enemy in this war with the one exception of the eight-gun fighter? I ask my noble friend Lord Trenchard, who has been cheering the Government as usual, what surprises have we sprung? Possibly I could add the Asdic device. We did far better in the last war. Take the news in last night's paper that General Auchinleck's offensive was halted by Rommel's mine-fields. Have we any scheme for getting through land mine-fields? We had this problem at sea in the last war, and we forced on the Admiralty the paravane invention which saved hundreds of thousands of tons of shipping, both warships and merchant ships.

As for the air-borne Army, the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, again cheering the Government, as is his habit, supported the ridiculous reply put into the hands of my noble friend—the perfectly ridiculous reply—that it was too complicated a question. Your Lordships must all be aware that the effort expended on one of our big bombing raids on Germany—the same effort, weight, and horse power—would carry a whole Division with its light artillery, mortars, and everything else. I would ask Lord Trenchard, who is so amused at any new idea, as he has been for the last ten years, which would do more damage—his 1,000 night bombers or a whole Division of picked troops landed in the Ruhr to clean up Essen and all the rest of the place? How would he, as an old soldier, like to deal with a completely armed Division landed right in the middle of his country? That is the way to fight modern warfare, and the sooner we get rid of some of our old gentlemen who cannot get over the ideas of the last war the better.

We hear of the importance of scientific men. It is said that the Prime Minister has a great regard for scientists and employs scientists. I am very glad to hear it because there could be no greater antithesis than between the brilliant mind of the Prime Minister and the scientific mind; they are completely opposed to each other. When I heard Lord Snell speaking for the Government and when I contemplate their actions, I am reminded of an old friend of mine who was a very wealthy stationowner in Australia, a man of great importance. He could not read or write, but he had the greatest regard for learning and he would not employ a shepherd unless he was a Master of Arts of Oxford University or at least a failed Bachelor of Arts of Cambridge. I beg leave to withdraw the Motion.

Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.