Lords Sitting of 15 December 1942

Preamble
The House met, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

MESSAGE FROM THE KING.
THE EARL OF CLAIZENDON: My Lords, a Message from the King, signed with his own hand:
"I have received your Address praying that the Government of India (Adaptation of Acts of Parliament) (Amendment) Order, 1942, be made in the form of the draft laid before Parliament. I will comply with your request."

SECRET SESSION: NORTH AFRICA.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (VISCOUNT CRANBORNE) (Lord Cecil): My Lords, I beg to move that this House do go into Secret Session for the consideration of a question of which the noble Lord, Lord Addison, has given private notice.
Moved, That the sitting of the House to receive a statement on developments in North Africa be in Secret Session.—(Viscount Cranborne.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly
The Official Reporter then withdrew.
House in Secret Session.
House resumed in Open Session.

EXPIRING LAWS CONTINUANCE BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Templemore.)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

NATIONAL SERVICE BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD SNELL: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. The main purpose of the Bill is to enable the calling-up age for men to be reduced from 18½ to 18 years, and to enable the preliminary stages of registration and medical examination to take place before that age, so that those who are to be called up can be called up immediately on reaching the age of 18. It is not the intention of the Government to lower the age of liability to serve, which, under the National Service Acts, has always been 18; but this Bill will enable men to be called up at that age instead of having first to go through certain preliminary stages. The present position is that men cannot be called up for a substantial period—varying from four to six months—after they have reached the age of 18. They have to wait until certain essential preliminary stages have been completed; for example, there must be a Royal Proclamation in respect of their particular age group; then there must be the registration of that group and their qualifications must be verified, and there is also the medical examination. It is not proposed to reduce the age at which men will be liable for service overseas below 19 years, but it is considered that when men are sent overseas for service they should be fortified by a year's training, instead of being thrown, perhaps only half prepared, into the perils of battle.
There have been successive reductions in the age of calling up, and these have been rendered necessary by the requirements of the man-power situation. There was first the reduction from 20 to 19, at a time when men up to the age of 36 had been registered and then called up. The age was further reduced to 18½ after the registration and call-up of men of 40 years of age. The present need for man-power is well known, and the alternative to what is now proposed under this Bill would be in the first place a further withdrawal of young men from essential industries, or secondly, to secure a certain but insufficient number by the extension of the upper limit of call-up to the age of 46. It may be noted that doctors and dentists up to that age are being called up, and it

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may yet be necessary to extend the upper limit to the age of 46, but that would offer no substitution for the reduction of the lower limit to 18 years. It may interest your Lordships to be reminded of what the conditions are in other countries. In Russia, I understand, the general age of call-up is 17. In Germany, the 1925 class registered last June; that is, they would be between 16½ and 17½ years old. In Italy the call-up is generally at 19. In the countries of other Allied Powers it is 18. The reduction of the age now proposed indicates that the mobilization of man-power is now reaching its final stages, and the purpose of the Bill is to enable mobilization to be completed.
I do not think it is required that I should give more than a very short description of die contents of the Bill itself. Clause 1, which is the main clause of the Bill, will enable men to be registered one. medically examined before 18, but ensures that no man shall be posted to the Forces before his 18th birthday. Some important matters are dealt with in subsections (1) and (2) of Clause 1. These deal with the power to register before the age of liability to be called up and introduce a new term into the National Service Acts—namely, "subject to registration." That is intended to cover not only those who have reached the age of 18 but also those below the age, when liable to be called up, Subsection (3) deals with provisions regarding the registration and medical examination, and applications for postponement, conscientious objection, and so on.
Clause 2 has the object of simplifying procedure foe Royal Proclamations which is at present somewhat unnecessarily complicated. It provides not only that the Proclamation covers men who have reached the age of 18 on the date of issue, but carries its operation into the future and brings into liability younger mer. as soon as they reach that age. Clause 3(1) relates to the exemption of certain British subjects belonging to the Dominions, who are not now called up unless they are ordinarily resident in Great Britain. This subsection empowers the making of Defence Regulations to enable the Government to make new arrangements in order to overcome the anomalies which the present Regulations do not meet. Clause 4 enables the Bill to be subsequently amended by Defence
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Regulation. This provision is common form in all the National Service Acts. I think it is not necessary for me to give further details. What the Bill is asking for is judged by His Majesty's Government to be vital and necessary, and I therefore beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Snell.)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

HOME GUARDS: MEDICAL TREATMENT.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK VISCOUNT ELIBANK had the following Notice on the Paper: To ask His Majesty's Government, whether they will cancel the instructions issued to the Deputy Directors of Medical Services of all Commands, by the War Office in their letter of the 13th October, to the effect that officers of the Home Guard are for all financial purposes, including medical attendance and hospital treatment, to be regarded as private soldiers, and that the admission of officers of the home Guard to officers' convalescent hospitals is, therefore, unauthorized and that in lieu thereof instructions will be given that all officers of the Home Guard, so long as the injury or illness treated arises out of their military duties, shall in future be entitled to medical and hospital treatment on the same basis as officers of the Regular Services; and further, that Home Guardsmen of all other ranks shall likewise be entitled to medical and hospital treatment according to their several ranks, when the injury or illness arises out of their military duties; and to move for Papers.
The noble Viscount said: My Lords, two or three weeks ago I moved a Motion in your Lordships' House advocating the increase of the Home Guard, and received, as I said at the time, a satisfactory answer. But a few days before I moved that Motion there came into my hands a communication which had, in my opinion, a very important effect upon the position of officers of the Home Guard. I referred to that in my speech, but I did not press it borne because I did not wish it to cross the main theme of my Motion, which was the increase of the strength or "ceiling" of the Home Guard. But the short reply which I received from my

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noble friend Lord Croft to the short statement I made in regard to it led me to put down the Motion which I have on the Paper to-day, in which I refer specifically to the point. I waited for something like five weeks, hoping that this matter might have been settled, so to speak, out of court, but there has been no indication to me in any way that the question has been further considered, or that a satisfactory solution of it has been found.
My Motion to-day raises two main points—(1), that the Army Council have laid down the principle that Home Guard officers are to be regarded as private soldiers and to be treated as such for all financial purposes, including medical attention and hospital treatment; (2), that they are not to be admitted to officers' convalescent homes or to officers' wards in military hospitals. Then a third part of my Motion raises a further important point, and demands that Home Guardsmen of all ranks should be entitled to medical and hospital treatment according to their several ranks when the injury arises out of their military duties. I will deal with the first part of the Motion first, and I think it is only fair to your Lordships on this occasion to read out the communication which came into my hands and which led me to raise the issue. A letter—not a confidential letter, an open letter—was addressed to the Deputy Directors of Medical Services in all Commands. This was addressed to the Deputy Director of Medical Services of the London District, from the War Office on the 13th October, 1942, and it read as follows:
"Five officers of the Home Guard recently were transferred from a military hospital to an officers' convalescent hospital. Subject to the limitations laid down in Paragraph 27 of A.C.I. 872 of 1942, officers of the Home Guard for all financial purposes, including medical attendance and hospital treatment, are to be regarded as private soldiers. The admission of officers of the Home Guard to officers' convalescent hospitals is therefore unauthorized. Will you kindly bring this information to the notice of all concerned."
It is unnecessary to give the signatory, as he signed on behalf of the War Office.
I must say that when I saw that letter I was absolutely staggered. I could not believe that such a communication would issue from the War Office in connexion with officers of the Home Guard, especially at this time, when they are giving up all
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their leisure arid doing everything they can to further the objects of the Home Guard and, incidentally, of the War Office. As I do not wish to detain the House too long on this matter, I shall turn at once to the Official Report of the reply which the noble Lord gave to me on November 17 and refer to the reasons he gave why officers of the Home Guard should be treated as privates. He said:
"The present Regulation regarding the treatment of Home Guard officers in convalescent hospitals follows the principle which has governed the Home Guard since the formation of the L.D.V.—namely, that all ranks should be treated alike. I can therefore give no assurance that this Regulation will be modified or withdrawn."
Secondly, my noble friend said:
"… the question of Commissions for officers arose and was pressed with great vigour in some quarters. On this subject I think it should be known that the demand was by no means universal; in fact, a considerable number of Home Guard leaders feared that it might alter the character and spirit of the Force. I certainly did not share that view, and the War Office decided to grant Commissions because we considered it vital that in case of actual operations with Regular troops, officers of the Home Guard should have their status in operations clearly defined. That, I think, was convincing. When we made that decision to grant officers the King's Commission, we made it abundantly clear that it must in no way alter the basic principles on which the Force was formed, and that the Commission should carry no privilege not previously enjoyed by the officers of the Home Guard."
My noble friend will agree that I am quoting very fairly and at length what he said. I do not wish to burke any part of his arguments. My contention was that since that statement was made nearly two years ago the whole position of the Home Guard Defence Force had been altered and the Home Guard had taken on a much more important role. In this particular representation my noble friend agreed, because he said:
"We can now view the task of the Home Guard, however, in a somewhat different light. It is in fact contributing to the general offensive by undertaking in increasing measure the local defence of the home base, and so freeing more of our Regular Army to fight overseas. Let us hope that this will remain its task for the months to come."
That is the real answer. That is why Home Guard officers have got the right, and may expect, to be treated exactly as officers in any of the other Services of His Majesty's Forces. Your Lordships must remember that this Force was raised in war-time and not in peace

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time. It is a War Force and two years have elapsed since its formation. Members of it are being trained every day more and more in this war in which we are engaged up to the neck against a savage, ruthless foe, and they are doing more and more to take the place of the Regular Army when and as it goes oversea. It is not neace-time soldiering. I submit with all earnestness that the Home Guard are entitled to be treated as a serious Fighting Force, and Home Guard officers should have the same privileges as the officers of other Fighting Forces in the country of whatever category.
I cannot see how the Army Council can differentiate between one class of officer and another. His Majesty's Commission is something to be proud of, and to be respected and held in dignity, and it should confer the sane degree of privilege on whomsoever holds it. Home Guard officers in spite of what my noble friend Lord Wedgwood said on the last occasion, expect to be treated as officers. They wish to be treated as officers and to receive those privileges; and not only they but the non-commissioned officers and men of the Home Guard feel that if their officers are not treated in the same way as officers of other Forces they are being degraded. I shall go further. I do not believe there is any member of the public who does not consider that that treatment should be accorded to them. Ask any of your friends who have not considered this question, whether they think it right that officers of the Home Guard should be treated otherwise, and I am sure you will get the answer I have given to-day.
Lieutenant Foster, of the Home Guard, received the George Cross for heroic action. Why should Lieutenant Foster be treated as a private? I cannot understand what is at the bottom of this. I wonder whether it is the Treasury that is at the back of it, whether this is a measure to save money. If so, it is quite unjustifiable and absolutely outrageous. Here we have a Force of 1,750,000 officers, non-commissioned officers and men giving their services free in practically all respects—a very economical Force indeed. We all know how difficult it is for the Treasury to discharge its task of keeping down expenditure, but if I am correct in thinking it is the Treasury which is responsible in this case, I submit it has no right to take advantage of the loyal
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service and patriotism which have been so splendidly displayed by the Home Guard. If the Treasury wants to cut down, let it cut down some of the thousands of petty officials who are choking the machinery of government to-day. I have no hesitation in saying that the discipline of the Force can only be maintained if the officers are treated properly. This is war-time, not peace-time. At any moment the enemy may be in this country, whether air-borne or otherwise, and the Home Guard will have to take their positions, like any other soldiers, in defending the country and their homes.
There is just one other point—the last part of my Motion—which refers to Home Guardsmen of all ranks. I am not sure whether this is so or not—if I am wrong, I ask my noble friend to correct me—but I do not believe it is the case that to-day all Home Guardsmen are entitled to hospital treatment and medical attention for any injury or illness arising in the course of their military duties. If that is the case then I have no more to say, but I might point my argument by reference to an occurrence of a few days ago about which I read in the papers. Three men were killed and eight injured in an explosion at Chelmsford during a lecture for Home Guard personnel. If my noble friend can tell me that these men all received medical attention or hospital treatment as Home Guardsmen in a military hospital, I am content to know that they are eligible for such treatment so long as they are performing military duties. That is the point I wish to make. I desire to urge that whenever they are engaged in military duties, on parade or anywhere else, and they suffer illness or injury, they should receive proper hospital and medical treatment. I have made the case I wish to make, and I ask the Government not only to withdraw these instructions but to substitute for them something which is fair and right to Home Guard officers and to the Force as a whole. I beg to move.
LORD GORELL: My Lords, before the noble Lord replies I would like to say just one thing. I cannot help feeling that the noble Lord who has moved this Motion is under some slight misapprehension as to the feeling generally throughout the Home Guard on the subject of officers and men. The Home Guard began without commissioned rank, with all of us on

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exactly the same level and very proud of that uniformity. It is true that in the course of the two-and-a-half years during which we have been an organized force, commissioned rank, so-called, has been brought in, and there is that distinction between officers and men; but so far as I have been able to judge, and I have been at it from the first day, the change of mind to which the noble Viscount, Lord Eli-bank, has drawn attention does not generally exist. We still feel exactly the same, that there is a uniformity throughout the whole of the Home Guard, and the less distinction that is made between officers and men the better. I am bound to say that when the noble Viscount raised the question a short while ago of the difference between a Regular Adjutant and a Home Guard Commanding Officer travelling on a train in different classes, I found in my conversations with members of the Home Guard that they regarded that as completely unimportant. All we desire is to carry on as far as distinctions of rank are concerned exactly the same as we do now.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: I have not used that point this afternoon. It is not referred to in my Motion at all, nor have I referred to it in my speech.
LORD GORELL: I beg the noble Lord's pardon if I have misinterpreted him. I understood he was raising a distinction between the hospital treatment accorded to officers and that accorded to men. At any rate I have made the point I wish to make. The less we treat officers and men as two separate classes in the Home Guard the better. We all understand the difference between on parade and off parade, and we like to be treated generally as one.
THE EARL OF CORK AND ORRERY: My Lords, I had not intended to intervene in this debate, but I now rise to support the Motion introduced by my noble friend Lord Elibank. It is not a question of whether you are treating officers in the Home Guard and privates of the Home Guard differently; it is a question of treating the officers of one Force differently from the officers of another Force. I have taken certain steps since the last debate to find out from certain battalions in which I am still interested their feelings in the matter, and I have ascertained that the officers have not the slightest objection to being
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treated the same as, and do not expect to be treated differently from, their own privates; but when it comes to a matter of officers of the three Services going into one ward and Home Guard officers being refused admission to it and being turned down, that is something against the whole body of feeling in the Home Guard. That is discriminating and saying: "You are a Home Guard officer; we do not treat you the same as other officers" It is not a matter of discriminating between officer and private of the Home Guard; it is something much wider than that.
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (LORD CROFT): My Lords, the noble Viscount has already referred to this matter, as he told us this afternoon, in his Motion on November 17, when so courteously, as he always does, he put his criticisms before your Lordships' House. When he raised it, as I told him at the time, the point was completely new to me, but I promised him that I would look into the whole question, and I have been able to do so since. As I told the House on that occasion, this matter of hospital treatment cannot be dealt with as a separate item, but must needs be related to the general policy for the Home Guard. I would also remind your Lordships that the policy which has always been understood, and has never been questioned until very recently, was that all ranks should be treated alike. If members of the Home Guard have to enter a civil hospital for treatment they will naturally be treated exactly the same as any other civilian patients. If of necessity they enter a military hospital or convalescent home—and I think the speech of the noble and gallant Earl who has just spoken confirms me in that opinion—I think it is desirable that members of the Home Guard should be treated in wards or rooms specially reserved for them. The Government propose, therefore, to give instructions for this procedure to be adopted in military hospitals whenever it is possible to reserve separate rooms for this purpose, and a letter will be written to this effect.
In this way I think we shall meet a legitimate desire which the noble Viscount tells us is felt in the Home Guard, but I could not go further and accept the suggestion put forward in the Motion without infringing the principle of

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equality of treatment for all ranks. This same principle must govern each case, whether it be hospital treatment, or allowances, or accommodation, or anything else of the kind—in other words, members of the Home Guard are treated alike in sickness as in health. In fact, under conditions of battle or serious air-raid casualties, it would often he quite impossible to segregate men according to rank except to the detriment of the medical attention they ought to receive. As to the general point, I feel that there is little more that I can add to what said on the last occasion. While there has certainly been some demand in the Home Guard for preferential treatment for certain ranks, it has been far from a universal demand, as I think has been made clear in the debates in this House. Against it must be set the original tradition of equality on which the Home Guard has grown up and which so many of its members, and I think particularly the older members, prize very highly.
My noble friend asked me one or two specific questions. One was with regard to an unfortunate accident which occurred at Chelmsford. The men concerned, I understand, were not members of the Home Guard, and to that extent the Press report was clearly based on a misunderstanding, but if they had been members of the Home Guard they would have been given free medical treatment. Of that there is not any doubt. My noble friend seemed to suggest that the Treasury has taken some part in this matter. I think your Lordships should know—here I answer his other question on medical treatment—that all members of the Home Guard are entitled to medical treatment and hospital treatment, and that I always understood was regarded in the Home Guard, as very fair and generous. It has been in practice some time. There is no doubt about that, and the noble Viscount can rest assured that there is no difficulty on that subject. Provision is made that every Home Guard who is injured does get medical treatment.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: Injured when he is on military duties?
LORD CROFT: Yes. The noble Viscount Viscount further submitted to your Lordships that some great change has recently come over the Force. He said—I think these are his words, if not he will
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correct me—that the whole basis of the Force has been changed by recent events and by the movement of the war. I can assure him that that is not so. It may be that in certain operational matters their object may have been slightly changed—he mentioned himself that as more of the Regular Army go abroad greater responsibility is placed on the Home Guard—but I can assure him there has been no change in the basis of the Home Guard. I do not think that is suggested by Home Guard officers, and the answer on that point must be that there is no change in the basis.
My noble friend finally said—again I hope that I am reporting him correctly—that officers of the Home Guard should have the same privileges and rights as the officers of all other Fighting Services. That has never been claimed by them. I must remind my noble friend once more that the Home Guard is a part-time Force, the vast majority of the members of which are pursuing their normal avocations as civilians. I do not think it has ever been claimed even by the keenest champions of the Home Guard that they should be treated in all respects like the officers of other Services. I agree most cordially with what my noble friend said about the wonderful services of the Home Guard. I have spent the last thirteen' week-ends with detachments of the Home Guard all over the country, and I have endeavoured to obtain their opinions. I have found that, although there are certain differences and must be certain differences of opinion, there is a feeling among them that they joined the old Local Defence Volunteers with their comrades, that they asked for no privileges at that time, and that they were content to feel that they were all members of this great and remarkable demonstration of the national will for victory. I thank my noble friend for the courtesy with which he has put his case forward, and I honestly believe that the statement I have made, that the Home Guard shall have these facilities wherever possible in hospitals and convalescent homes, will meet with their approval. I hope that it will also meet with the approval of my noble friend.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, I am afraid that, notwithstanding the very conciliatory and courteous manner in which the noble Lord has replied to me, and the

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concessions which he has made, I cannot feel that it is a very satisfactory solution. Like my noble friend the Earl of Cork, whom I wish to thank for supporting this Motion, I have a feeling that when you give Commissions in His Majesty's Forces you ought to give the same privileges—I am talking about hospital and medical treatment to-day, and not about first- and third-class railway carriages, although I feel strongly about that—to those officers as you give to any other officers fighting alongside them and risking their lives alongside them. My noble friend has gone so far as to grant admission to those places under the same conditions, but I would urge him to go a little further. I believe a committee which is sitting to-day with the Secretary of State is quite likely to ask the Secretary of State to go further. I know that my own territorial association and another territorial association in Scotland, where perhaps we feel more strongly about this than people do in England, are urging the Secretary of State to go further. Therefore, while I do not propose to press my Motion, and while I thank my noble friend for his reply and for going as far as he can, I do not think for a moment that the matter will rest there. I beg leave to withdraw.
Motion for Papers, by leave, with-drawn.

PALESTINE POLICE.
LORD WEDGWOOD,LORD WEDGWOOD, in whose name was a Motion for Papers relating to certain troubles in connexion with the Palestine Police Force, said: My Lords, about six months ago the noble Viscount, Lord Cranborne, the Leader of the House, reproved me for making unfounded—I think he used the word "wicked"—statements about Anti-Semitism in the Palestine Administration. In ringing tones he said they did the noble Lord no good; and that they did the Jews no good. The real trouble is that he and I have a great deal in common. We both tend to embroider in order to strengthen arguments which are sound enough without embroidery. Above all, we share a thorough-paced dislike of saying anything "for our own good" When he makes a speech here it is not in order that he may do himself some good. When I make a speech here or anywhere else it is not in order to do myself any
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good. We do not speak in your Lordships' House in order to do ourselves good, but in order to secure justice and to preserve the good name of our country. I have a theory that the noble Viscount did not really make that speech; that when I supplied him beforehand with notes of what I intended to say he passed them over to someone to write a speech for him, and then he read it.
At the time I was saying things which I actually believed; but the great advantage was that the reply was advertised all over the world from the back blocks of America even to the sacred groves of Palestine. The reproof was published. Consequently a great many people wrote to me giving me evidence for the speech I made. Among other people four members of the Palestine Police Force—not Jews at all—opened my eyes to something which was even more serious. The Palestine Police Force in the days before the war was recruited on a contract of service for so many years. When the war started that contract of service was cancelled, and. men were conscribed into the Palestine Police Force and compelled to stop in it, with the result that a great many of them, anxious to do fighting instead of police work, tried to get out of the Force. Their desire was to be in the Air Force here or in the Navy doing some active service. Some found the police service thoroughly uncongenial and they took the only step available for getting out; that is to say, they committed technical military offences, were tried by Court Martial, sentenced to imprisonment and dismissed the Service. I can imagine that happening occasionally, even in this country. But here there were, I am told, more than 300 men who were so determined to leave the Force that they served terms of imprisonment varying from one month to, in some cases, I think, if my memory serves me aright, one year. They did this to get out of the Force. It seems to me that if that sort of thing happened anywhere else in the world except Palestine we should have heard it.
Why do these men want to get out of the Force? I can only tell your Lordships that I have seen three of these people and have heard from the fourth. They are nice boys of the public school type; English gentlemen who had joined that Force in order to have an exciting life and to do good service for their country. They were youths of exactly the same type as

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those who go into the Air Force to-day, and win our victories for us. They are quite well educated, and, curiously enough, their complaints are against a Force which was prejudiced against the Jews and commanded by officers who were the sort of officers not approved of by Colonel Bingham. They had come home, they said quite frankly, because they wanted to do everything in their power to put right what was wrong in the Palestine Police Force, and they did not care what the results for themselves might be. They gave me written statements for which I asked, and I took them to the noble Viscount, the Leader of the House, who was then Secretary of State for the Colonies. I hoped I that I need not do anything more about the matter, for I do not like bringing these things up.
I went to the noble Viscount feeling quite confident that something would be done to put matters right. After all, when more than 300 police officers take the trouble to go to prison in order to leave a Force it does certainly look as though there is something wrong somewhere. I went to the noble Viscount just as I went to him over the affair of the "Dunera." I felt sure, as he shared my indignation on that occasion and immediately sent me to the Secretary of State for War, who likewise shared my views and had an inquiry instituted, that we should have similar results on this occasion. But not a bit of it. I think that finally consent was given from the Colonial Office to these people being seen, if they wished to be seen. That is not what we want at all. What we want in the public service is not that things should be kept dark for the honour of the Department, but that things should be kept correct for the honour of the country. The Colonial Office, which, twenty-five years ago, was the model Department of Government, certainly ought to have jumped at the opportunity of seeing these men, of finding out from them what was wrong and of making other inquiries.
Now what is the evidence that these men put before me? Here is a communication from one of them. I cannot remember the man's name at the moment, but the communication went to the Ministry. In it reference is made to two Dutch liners, which it is stated went into Haifa and from which the people were transferred to another ship to go to Mauritius. The writer states:
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"The baggage of these 'undesirable' people was ruthlessly looted upon the quayside with the pretext that they were being searched for implements of sabotage. The authorities were deliberately wreaking a spitefulness upon these people, for they were still smarting from the 'Patria' inquiry.… Some of the police officers who travelled with the party misconducted themselves on board the ship."
That is not a complaint from a Jew. It comes from a man who is not only too per cent. English but not even a Zionist.
Then there is another statement here, the author being Dan Melville. He states:
"I am prepared to do anything in my power to assist in breaking down a system which I not only believe to be absolutely cruel and unjust but which I earnestly consider is doing ineradicable harm to our reputation."
That comes from a man who not only goes to prison for a long term in order to get out of this Police Service, but is prepared to give his name and to do what lie can to stop what is wrong. Another man, Robert Hunter, writes:
"In fact, all ranks of the Palestine Police Force are largely (not entirely) composed of men who are intolerant, vicious and completely lacking in understanding."
A NOBLE LORD: That is quite untrue.
LORD WEDGWOOD: The statement goes on:
"Anti-Semitism in a violent shape is a moral convention, with which recruits are Unlined at the depot."
In connexion with the riots that took place over the last White Paper about two years ago, this same man writes:
"The Assistant Superintendent of Police (Mr. I. M. Flanagan) was in command."
I should explain that this relates to an occasion when the Jews had been allowed to have a procession and to make a demonstration. The writer goes on:
"He told us: 'They may try to break down the railings of the Law Courts, and that's just what we want them to do. I shall give you the order to charge. Don't hit a man twice; kill him and then get on to the next man. Don't waste two blows on one man."
That is something which I have had corroborated from another source. I suggest that that attitude in the Police Force must be absolutely damning to our reputation for impartiality.
Here is a communication from another man, whose name is Rowland. He writes:
"The main subject of the Police Mess conversation, after women, is the 'bloody Jews.' They can be classed in that respect as good Nazis. In a broadcast from Berlin to the Middle East the Palestine Police were praised

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as being the only people besides the Germans who know how to deal with the Jews. They were promised that when the Germans came to Palestine they would raise the pay of the 'poor underpaid British police.'"
Later, the writer states:
"The bombing of Tel Aviv met with great approval among the police."
He also says:
"One of the Nashashibi family once asked the Chief Secretary why he did not dismiss the Fascists in the Administration. He replied that to do that he would have to dismiss everyone, clown to the office boys."
He goes on to point out that the Communists have at last been released, and says:
"The Communist Party of Palestine is now solidly behind the war effort and, if encouraged, would be a great help in making the Arabs pro-Ally, an outstanding case of Arab-Jew co-operation."
He speaks, too, of the victimization of the Jewish constables in the Police, and of the bribery which goes on, bribery of which the Colonial Office is perfectly well aware, because there was the case of the assistant superintendent of police who was dismissed after a charge in which it was proved that he had taken bribes from Jews in order to allow illegal immigrants to come over the frontier. Those are only short extracts from long statements which went to the Colonial Office some time ago; and I submit to your Lordships that, unpleasant though it is for me to extract from these statements here now, it is my duty to make them, since the Colonial Office will not act otherwise. I had postponed saying anything about this either in the Press or here because I hoped that something would be done.
With this one-sided evidence before us, I think that something ought to be done. I should like to know, first of all, how many people got out of the Police by favour, without having to go to prison, in order to join up; secondly, how many have got out by going to prison; thirdly, how many still wish to get out; and fourthly, how many are still in gaol. I should also like to know what is being done about these assistant superintendents of police. These gentlemen with the good old Anglo-Saxon names of Flanagan and Cafferata, and about the apparent Fascist spirit of the Force. Has anyone been punished or reproved for the looting which took place on the voyage to Mauritius? In view of the military occupation, could not the Colonial Office have
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the British Police disbanded, and transfer them all to the Army? I should like to know, finally, what the Colonial Office propose to do if they are not taking steps of this sort.
I am particularly sore about the matter, because I asked for the address of a fifth man, who I was told had throughout his service taken notes of all that was going wrong. His name is Waterhouse and the address which I was given was Preston—the Colonial Office would not tell me his address. That is all right if they have seen him themselves, but it is all part, it seems to me, of an entirely wrong attempt to try to hush things up, without caring whether they are right or wrong. I am sorry to have had to bring this matter up to-day, but I am far sorrier that we should have a Police Force with such a bad reputation that men do all they can, even to the extent of going to prison, to get out of it, and one officered by people who are not a credit to the British name. I beg to move for Papers.
LORD MORRIS: My Lords, I address your Lordships on this topic with even more trepidation that I should otherwise have, with an elder statesman of Lord Samuel's vast experience of that country sitting just below me; but I have been in Palestine as recently as May last. For my own part, I hope that the Government will treat this mare's nest with the contempt that it merits. It may be that the noble Lord who has moved this Motion has other sources of information at his disposal than I have, but, when I left that country in May, none of the conditions about which he has told your Lordships prevailed, and to suggest that the Palestine Police Force or any part of it—many of its members live in Tel Aviv—welcomed the bombing of that place is an allegation as childish and as monstrous as any allegation could be. There is one thing which I should like to urge on His Majesty's Government, and that is that, if they propose to make any changes of any kind in Palestine, whether in the Police Force or anywhere else, they should do nothing without the close cooperation and guidance of the men on the spot. I do not think that Palestine could be regarded as one of the happiest ventures of British Governments, which have successively made an appalling mess of the "Palestine problem," as it is called. If one wants a parallel for their ineptitude

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and lack of understanding, I think one would have to turn to Ireland.
Nevertheless, we are extremely fortunate to-day, and have been for some tine past, as I am sure the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, will agree, in the men on the spot there—in the High Commissioner, Sir Harold MacMichael, in the Chief Secretary, Mr. Macpherson, in the Attorney-General, Mr. Fitzgerald, and in the; Inspector-General of Police, Mr. Saunders. All these men—I know them well—are particularly fine examples of the Colonial Service; it would be impossible to find better. I think that it would be a good idea—unless, of course, the: noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack thinks that I am wandering too far from the terms of the Motion, and that my proposal is not germane—that some form of message should be sent from this country and from your Lordships' House to these men in Palestine who have done and are doing such vitally important, helpful and highly successful work in that troubled land.
Last week Palestine celebrated twenty-five years of government and of administration under our œgis. It has been, I think, extremely successful. There were some unfortunate troubles at one time, but they were, I think, inevitable with a child as delicate as Palestine, which had to have its teething troubles. Every time I look at the map, however, I marvel that we have not had infinitely more trouble in Palestine than we have had. When one thinks of the battles which have been waged on its southern borders, in Egypt and Libya, in the last few years, and when one thinks of the trouble to the north, in Syria, where, for once in our history, we walked in before Hitler, and when one thinks of the trouble in Iraq, it seems to me nothing short of miraculous that there has not been far more trouble in Palestine than there has. We have heard this afternoon about the Police Force. I think it was Gilbert who said that
"Taking one consideration with another,
The policeman's lot is not a happy one."
Presumably Gilbert was referring to England or America, or some northern country we al. know about; he was not referring to Palestine. And you can picture the life of a policeman in Palestine, where you have three Sabbaths in one week, the Arab's on Friday, the Jew's on Saturday and the Christian's on Sun-
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day; and in fact every second day seems to be a festival of some kind. The life of the police there is extremely difficult. Many of them have to have a smattering of at least three languages, English, Hebrew and Arabic, in order to get on at all. The problems they are presented with would, I imagine, completely defeat a great many people occupying high posts in His Majesty's Government. They do a very delicate and very tricky task, in my estimation, extremely well.
For nine months last year, in addition to my normal duties in my own Service, I acted as Military Prosecutor in Palestine, and therefore I can speak with some little knowledge of the work being done in Palestine. I received every morning a confidential report of their work, arid I am happy to be able to tell your Lordships that in my view there is no liner body of their kind in the Empire, or I think in the world to-day.
LORD WEDGWOOD: Would the noble Lord say whether they are Anti-Semite or not?
LORD MORRIS: I think they endeavour to follow the example set them by the Government there, in spite of the rather large Irish element, of which I believe the Government, and certainly I myself, am extremely proud. They endeavour to preserve that very necessary, very desirable, and indeed absolutely vital, balance which is called for in that country. There have been very sad and very unfortunate occurrences in Palestine, too, during the short time I was there. There was the incident in Haifa harbour. Then a very large British liner—this is not generally known in this country—was bombed and "blitzed" in Egyptian waters, and burnt down to the water's edge. In that horrible catastrophe numbers of people in Palestine, members of our Services there, lost their wives and children. Some were burnt to death, others died from exposure; it was really a dreadful tragedy.
Some of these men I have been talking about have been out there in Palestine for many years. Perhaps they were due for leave at the outbreak of war. They have not had leave, they have not been able to go home, so that their leave at the moment is over three years overdue, and if the prognostications of the First

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Lord of the Treasury and the Defence Ministers are verified, it will be some time before they do get home. I do ask again, in all seriousness, that your Lordships might, if you agree with me, ask the noble Viscount, the Leader of the House, to convey on behalf of your Lordships and, for that matter, on behalf of this country generally, a word of gratitude, a word of appreciation, a word of approbation of the good work that these people have been doing out there for a very long time in what, I can tell your Lordships from first-hand experience, are extremely difficult circumstances, and perhaps a word of confidence in them and a word of good wishes for their future.
VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: My Lords, I suppose there is no one in this House who does not hold the noble Lord, Lord Wedgwood, in high esteen. We admire his championship of the under-dog, and we admire the broad humanity of his outlook on all the problems with which we are faced. I would assure him that on no occasion has it ever been my desire or intention to attribute to him, in the many exchanges that we have had, unworthy motives. If I made that impression on him I can only tell him again that nothing was further from my wish. But I think we must all of us agree that his approach to some subjects, and notably to the subject of Palestine, is unusual, and might even be described as deplorable. The course which the ordinary man seeks to adopt in considering a thorny question of this kind is to listen to the arguments on both sides, to consider them objectively, and to come, if he is able to do so, to a balanced conclusion. Now, if he will forgive me for saying so, that is not the noble Lord's approach. He seems to start on the assumption that the Palestine Administration—everything to do with it—is always wrong and, what is more, is always actuated by the lowest possible motives. Everything which fits in with that assumption he accepts without any doubts. Anything which does not fit in, however well documented and however authoritative the source from which it comes, he dismisses as biased and Anti-Semite.
We had an example of that in a recent debate, also in reference to the Palestine
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Police Force. Noble Lords may remember that the noble Lord made a remark that the Palestine Police were composed of Irish Roman Catholics, actuated by a strong pro-Italian bias. Now this was a rather startling and surprising suggestion, and I thought it was one worth following up. I therefore, while I was at the Colonial Office, made careful inquiries. I found there was no substance in it at all. I do not say there is not a single Irishman in the Palestine Police Force—that would clearly be an over-statement of the case—but the vast majority are Englishmen, Scotsmen and others, selected in the ordinary way. It is perfectly true that there were a number of Army reservists who were taken in at the time of the Arab troubles before the war, but the great majority of these came from the Scots Guards, which are known to have no special affiliation with Fascist Italy. Now that is a typical case of the noble Lord's form of argument on the Palestine question. He throws out these remarks here, there, and everywhere, and these irresponsible charges go out to the world against people who are going through exceedingly difficult times.
LORD WEDGWOOD: They need not have gone out to the world if only you had seen these people.
VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: Perhaps the noble Lord will allow me to continue. They do go out to the world and, if the noble Lord will believe it, they do a great deal of harm. To-day he has returned to the charge about the Palestine Police on very similar lines. He has heard certain stories detrimental to the reputation of the Police Force and he accepted them all immediately at their face value. He has spoken of certain police officers who were discharged from the Palestine Police Force. He seemed himself doubtful why they left the Force. At one moment he said they left it because they wanted to go to the war, at the next moment because they did not like the Police Force itself.
LORD WEDGWOOD: Both reasons.
VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: These are not the same reasons; and, what is more, they are conflicting reasons. So far as concerns his complaint that they wanted to go to the war and that the authorities, with undue harshness, refused to allow them to go, I must say I have no sym-

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Pathy with the view which the noble Lord has expressed.
As the House is probably aware, since June, 1940, the Palestine Police Force has been a military force. If a soldier or sailor in any other part of the world were to strike a superior officer or to commit what the noble Lord called a "technical offence" to obtain his discharge, he would be severely punished and in my view rightly punished. Members of the Palestine Police Force, tinder present conditions, cannot choose where and how they will serve. The same considerations apply there as in any other military force. Were firm action not taken with regard to these individuals, the whole discipline of the Force would disappear, and neither the civil inhabitants nor the Administration would benefit from that. So much for the first reason he has given why these men wished to leave. Then the noble Lord gave another and, in my view, conflicting reason. By this second argument, they wanted to leave because they considered it a bad Force arch they would rather be away from it. So I understood him.
I must say I have not been as impressed by all the arguments used by these young constables as the noble Lord has. He has told the House that no inquiry was made into what they said. That is quite untrue. I am sure he did not wish to mislead the House, but these are the facts. He raised this matter in your Lordships' House some time ago asked whether an interview, could be given. I was at that time at the Colonial Office, and I arranged with my right honourable friend the Under-Sectary to sec these men himself, and he did see them. I do not wish to throw the least doubt on their sincerity. I am sure these constables were saying exactly what they believed, but not all the things they said necessarily indicated so deplorable a state of affairs as the noble Lord has painted.
One of their charges was that some of the senior members of the Police Force expressed rather improper views about the Jews in the Mess. It is no doubt very regrettable and very wrong that they should express improper views about either Jews or Arabs. But it is not surprising that they should speak freely in private. We all do that. But that is not going to affect the propriety of our behaviour whether as constables or in any other walk of life. The noble Lord him-
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Self frequently gives vent to the most violent expressions of opinion. Anyone who did not know him would think he was an extreme revolutionary with advanced anarchist views. But in fact, as we all know, he is a highly respected and respectable member of society. What is true of him is no doubt also true of the members of the Palestine Police Force. They may speak light-heartedly at one time or another, but that is not evidence to prove that the officers concerned are biased in their actions or in their duties.
So far as the really serious charges are concerned which he has made—and there are serious charges—relating to individual incidents, I can assure the noble Lord that my right honourable friend will make the most careful inquiry into any individual instance which he has mentioned. If there is substance in his complaints the Government will take the necessary steps to prevent a repetition. Clearly it is not the wish of the Government or of my right honourable friend, any more than it is the wish of the noble Lord, that there should be misbehaviour on the part of any member of the Police Force. But I wish strongly to rebut the vague and general charges which the noble Lord has made against the Palestine Police Force. The noble Lord will forgive me for saying it, but they have been unbridled, they have been reckless and they are calculated to do a great deal of serious harm. He gave me no notice of a number of these particular charges.
LORD WEDGWOOD: I sent them all on to you.
VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: There were some which were not mentioned in the letter. For instance, the accusation that there was a constable named Waterhouse whom we had refused to see. I have made inquiries since the noble Lord spoke, and that name had not been passed on to the Colonial Office.
LORD WEDGWOOD: I wrote twice and asked for consideration of the matter, and got no answer.
VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: The noble Lord wrote about another constable; but I shall not pursue that matter. There were other charges to-day of which the noble Lord did not give me notice. Some of these general charges have already been completely refuted by the noble Lord, Lord Morris, who has just come back from

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Palestine. I only hope that the noble Lord, Lord Wedgwood, will not regard Lord Morris as a dangerous Anti-Semite because he has expressed clearly his views of the situation this afternoon. During the whole time I was at the Colonial Office I inquired into these questions because they were being raised by the noble Lord, and I found no evidence to confirm such general charges as he has made. On the contrary, I found that the police have a remarkably fine record of patience and restraint under circumstances of particular danger and difficulty, and I am very glad to pay tribute this afternoon to their most admirable work. The House will be aware that the task of the police is riot the same in Palestine as it is here in this country, where we are a law-abiding community, and where the main duties of the police in peace-time are of a routine nature. In Palestine that is not the case. There is a section of the population there—not very large, but very active—who are not in the strictest sense of the word criminal, but are actuated by extremist political ideas, and these political ideas lead them at any moment to commit crimes of violence. Under such conditions, members of the Police Force need not only tact but courage and a high degree of firmness. The Palestine Police Force are at all times in danger of assassination—I am sure my noble friend Lord Morris will agree—and many of them have lost their lives.
LORD MORRIS: There is one particular man I remember—Drummond—who was shot through the head. I do not say that happens frequently, but the danger exists.
LORD WEDGWOOD: Drummond was assassinated by the Arabs, not by the Jews.
VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: The point I was making was that the police have a dangerous life, whether at the hands of the Jews or at the hands of the Arabs. There is this comparatively small section of the population who are extremist in their political views, and who are liable at any moment to indulge in crimes of violence. These are the conditions under which the police have to carry out their duties of maintaining law and order. It may be that, on occasions, they are unduly firm—everyone would deprecate that—but law
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and order must be preserved in Palestine as elsewhere. That, I suggest to Lord Wedgwood, is as much in the interest of the Jews as it is in the interest of anyone else. I could not help thinking, as I listened to the noble Lord, that his attitude was strangely illogical. To-day he painted a very black picture of Palestine, giving the impression of a peaceful population suffering from a reign of terror at the hands of the police: In other debates he has painted a very different picture. The House will remember discussions we have had on the subject of illegal immigration, and at that time the noble Lord's passionate plea was that His Majesty's Government should allow more Jews into Palestine. On those occasions he gave an entirely different Impression of the country, He described it not as a hell on earth, but as a sort of Promised Land flowing with milk and honey, with the Jews happy and prosperous, and his complaint was that we did not allow more of them to come into the country.
Both pictures cannot be correct, and this House ought to try to consider what is the truth. I suggest it is this. The noble Lord is quite right in saying that the Zionist experiment has had a very great measure of success. Tel Aviv and other Jewish Colonies are among the most remarkable examples of colonization in recent times, and he is quite correct in saying that many Jews in Palestine are happy and prosperous. But how has this laudable result been achieved? I suggest to your Lordships that it has been achieved because His Majesty's Government and the Palestine Administration have managed to preserve law and order, and have managed to provide conditions under which the tender plant of Zionist colonization has been able to germinate, sprout, and flourish. Without the firm hand of British administration I believe the Zionist experiment would have only too probably been doomed to early and complete failure. For this I suggest that both His Majesty's Government and the Palestine Police Force can fairly claim a great measure of credit. It is not the ordinary law-abiding citizen in Palestine who suffers from the Palestine Police activities. It is those who, for political and for other reasons, seek to break the peace; and it is the interest I suggest of the overwhelming majority of the population of Palestine that the activities of

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these people should be firmly and promptly curbed. I cannot help feeling, in spite of what the noble Lord said in his speech, that it is unwise of him, both from his own point of view and from the point of view of the Zionist Movement, to spread unfounded doubts about the integrity of the Palestine Police. It can only tend to weaken the authority of law and order: and were this result to be achieved, he would have played his part in destroying the essential foundations on which the Zionist experiment, and indeed all civilized government, depends.
LORD WEDGWOOD: My Lords, the noble Viscount could have saved his speech and mine if he had told me that he had cross-examined these people. I would point out to your Lordships that so far from making any charges myself, what I have done has been to read out the statements which I put before the noble Viscount in order to get the answers to them. In every country the police are at the present time more important than they have ever been before. It was the police who smashed democracy in France. Suppose we had police here who were definitely Fascists what would be the fate of democracy in this country? Noble Lords on the right would start with the police. You have got a force in Palestine which in spite of what the noble Lord, Lord Morris, said, is undoubtedly extremely Fascist at the present time.
VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: No, it is not. I absolutely deny that. There is no foundation whatever for the noble Lord's statement.
LORD WEDGWOOD: How can you deny it when you have not heard the evidence? Have you taken evidence from these people?
VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: I must say the noble Lord has no right to make these charges. He takes the evidence of three constables and he takes no evidence from the other side. He does not look at the whole picture at all. We have had other evidence to the contrary here, in your Lordships' House. We all know the noble Lord, Lord Morris. Does the noble Lord, Lord Wedgwood, take that into account? Not at all. He speaks to his three constables and makes accusations which do an infinite amount of harm in the Middle East.
LORD WEDGWOOD: What does the noble Lord, Lord Morris, say? He says these men are an excellent body of men. That has nothing to do with Anti-Semitism. I can imagine that there are quite a number of Anti-Semites who might be described as an excellent body of men. I should not so describe them. That does not affect my views. If you have a police force anywhere holding political views you are ruining your civilization and your democracy. You have now growing up all over the world these police forces of the Gestapo type who are politicians in uniform interfering with our lives. You have got that, or the beginning of it, in Palestine, and unless you stop it the danger will get worse and will finally destroy any chance of democracy in that country. I am always losing my temper over this, and I do apologize to your Lordships for doing so. Here you have a case of twenty-five years of misgovernment—twenty-five years during which the Colonial Office has not done its duty by that mandated territory, by the people whom we have put there. I feel that unless some voice is raised to protest against that we shall be damned in the eyes of history. Although we have got a black record in the past, there have always been people who have denounced the Government at the time for these black pages in history. It is time that we got rid of the idea that everything is for the best and that it is a mistake to criticize. Criticism, indeed, is the secret of good government and you will get more of it.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, I wish before the Motion is put to utter just a sentence or two. I. had not intended to speak in this discussion. I have been in Palestine twice during the war—in 1940 and again this last spring. I saw a great many people and heard a great deal about the conditions in the country. I did not, of course, make any formal inquiries into matters such as those which have been discussed to-day. It may be that there are some abuses in the police, and if there were I should perhaps not have heard of them; but if any state of things prevailed such as has been described by the noble Lord, Lord Wedgwood, certainly it would have come to my ears, and I heard nothing of the kind.
LORD STRABOLGI: If this debate is to be prolonged by speeches I must say

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one word in defence of my noble friend below me. Nobody who knows the record in both Houses of my noble friend could for a moment suppose he could be actuated by any other motives than those of the very best and the most honest. I am perfectly certain my noble friend would not make these charges unless there was some foundation for them. I am sure, whatever the hard things said about him by the Leader of the House, the speech we have heard from my noble friend to-day will cause a certain amount of inquiry in the Colonial Office, and if there are things which, even on the admission of Lord Samuel, may exist, let us hope they will be eradicated.
On Question, Motion negatived.

GERMAN ATROCITIES IN POLAND.
THE EARL OF ELGIN AND KINCARDINE THE EARL OF ELGIN AND KINCARDINE moved to resolve, That this House, having learnt with indignation and horror that during their occupation of Poland the authorities of Hitlerite Germany have, for no crime other than that of being Poles, officially executed over 140,000 men and women, tortured many more in prisons and concentration camps, deported 1,500,000 to slave labour in Germany, and robbed over 2,000,000 in the Western provinces of all they possessed and before expelling them to Central Poland, thus in every way outraging both International Law and the laws of humanity itself, expresses to the Polish people its heartfelt admiration for their inspiring example of continuous and unflinching fortitude, protests in the name of civilization against the policy of deliberate extermination of the Polish people and pledges its word to heroic Poland that her sacrifice will not be in vain and that due retribution for all these crimes will unfailingly be exacted.
The noble Earl said: My Lords, the Motion which stands in my name is one of considerable length. It has been on the Order Paper of your Lordships' House for a considerable time, and I think it will need only a very few words of mine to receive general accord from your Lordships. I have endeavoured in the terms of the Motion, which have been vouched for by the Ministry of Information of Poland, to show to your Lordships the vastness of the problem, and
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I do not intend now to recapitulate the figures which are given in the Motion, or to go through the charges of horrors seriatim. I feel quite certain that your Lordships have seen in the public Press, and have heard from the lips of those who spoke at the various services during the last few days, enough to enable you to realize the atrocities which have been committed throughout Poland. Only last week the most reverend Prelate, the Archbishop of York, referred to this subject in these words:
"In Poland there is taking place one of the most appalling outrages that the whole history of the world has ever seen. We are watching the deliberate and cold-blooded massacre of a nation."
He was referring specially to the Jews, but the massacres and the atrocities are by no means confined to the Jews. The mere fact of being a Pole is quite sufficient for the Nazis to determine to exterminate a person.
In any appeal to force, whether it be an individual quarrel or a quarrel among nations, there must be suffering, but in the centuries that have gone by there has grown up an international code of honour, International Law, which has endeavoured to prevent outrages of bestiality, outrages against civilized people. In the war in which we are at present engaged, that International Law has been ignored. The facts which I have narrated in the Motion prove it. In order in some way to compromise the situation, a large part of Poland was declared by the German Reich at the beginning of the war to be annexed and not to form part of Poland. It was that part of Western Poland which includes Pomerania, Posnia and Upper Silesia, in which there lived at that time about 10,000,000 Poles and 600,000 Germans. Hitler's Germany decreed that in a short space of time there would not even be one single Pole found in that country. In addition to the massacres which have taken place there have been, as your Lordships are aware, wholesale deportations. I would only make one remark on the figures which I have quoted in the Motion, and that is that there is no finality in them. In the last few weeks we have witnessed a speeding up that has been terrific.
That is the situation which I ask your Lordships to consider at this moment. I could enumerate quite a number of other

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atrocities, but I wish to emphasize two points in he Motion and to ask that it may receive your general acceptance. The first is that we have three times given a solemn pledge to Poland. We gave a solemn pledge to Poland when we entered the war, a pledge given by Our late Prime Minister, Mr. Chamberlain. That was repeated by our present Prime Minister, and again on his behalf by the Foreign Secretary. I have in my hand a letter written by the Foreign Secretary, dated 20th July last, in which this sentence occurs:
"These crimes will not be forgotten by the United Nations when the clay of reckoning comes, and, as you know, the Prime Minister has already announced that retribution for such crimes must take its place among the major purposes of the war."
Since that letter was written we have had a declaration given to us in this House by the noble and learned Viscount who sits on the Woolsack. That is the first point—the solemn sanctity of the pledge which we have given.
Secondly, I wish your Lordships to appreciate the courage and determination of Poland itself. This can be illustrated over and over again. We heard with pride of that wonderful feat of seamanship which brought the submarine "Orzel" out of the Baltic and allowed her to take an active place in the fleet fighting for liberty. Only a few clays ago I had the privilege of standing on the deck of a new destroyer built in one of our own yards and handed over to Polish sailors. The Polish flag was hoisted on the ship and one could not help being impressed by the feeling of dauntless courage in face of danger which inspired every member of the crew. Repeatedly we have heard of the magnificent exploits of the Polish Fighter Squadron which knows no danger, which has a record equal to that of any of our squadrons of the Royal Air Force in achievement. But my own personal association has been more with the men of the Polish Army. Among them I have found a spirit of courtesy, courage, culture and chivalry second to none, and in all cases it has been backed by a deep sense of religious faith, intense belief that the spirit of Poland cannot die.
That spirit is a spirit which lives because it has faith and because it believes in something higher than worldly possessions or even than life itself. It is a spirit which repeats that declaration which all Scotsmen look back to with pride, that declaration of the Scottish Parliament
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assembled in Arbroath in 1320: "We fight not for riches, wealth or honour, but for that liberty without which no virtuous man can survive." That spirit lives and it lives in spite of the terrible background which these atrocities make in the lives, in the minds, and in the hearts of the individual Polish sailors, soldiers and airmen who are with us here. In spite of the fate of their own families and loved ones, the fate possibly of their own homes, in spite of what is happening and what is going to happen, in spite of all that there is no tendency to despair. Their motto rather is "Be strong and of good courage."
I wish your Lordships had been with me on one or two of those occasions when I have had the opportunity of listening to the Polish choir. I wish I could have invited that Polish choir to be present at the Bar of your Lordships' House and have given to you their rendering of "A hundred pipers an' a' an' a'". You would have got from that an inspiration of freedom, of liberty, of courage, and of the spirit that never dies. It is an honour to stand beside and co-operate with such an Ally, to proclaim emphatically that our pledge must be redeemed. It is in that sense that I ask your Lordships to-day to accept this Motion. I have been advised by the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Maugham, whose judgment on matters of law stands very high, that I ought to omit one sentence in this Motion. It is the sentence at the end which pledges Poland that her sacrifice will not be in vain. That perhaps, my Lords, is not in our hands. But I believe I can sum up this Motion even better in four words—" We salute you, Poland". I beg to move.
Moved to resolve, That this House, having learnt with indignation and horror that during their occupation of Poland the authorities of Hitlerite Germany have, for no crime other than that of being Poles, officially executed over 140,000 men and women, tortured many more in prisons and concentration camps, deported 1,500,000 to slave labour in Germany, and robbed over 2,000,000 in the Western provinces of all they possessed and before expelling them to Central Poland, thus in every way outraging both International Law and the laws of humanity itself, expresses to the Polish people its heartfelt admiration for their inspiring

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example of continuous and unflinching fortitude, protests in the name of civilization against the policy of deliberate extermination of the Polish people, and pledges its word to heroic Poland that her sacrifice will not be in vain and that due retribution for all these crimes will unfailingly be exacted—(The Earl of Elgin and Kincardine.)
LORD BARNBY: My Lords, I have little doubt that the Government spokes-man will recommend to your Lordships ready acceptance of this Resolution, but I could riot let pass the opportunity to associate myself with the very eloquent words in which my noble friend has moved this Motion. I do so because since 1922 it has so chanced that I have had occasion to be in very close contact with Poland. I have gone there a great deal each year, I have travelled through every part of Poland and so, during a period which now amounts to twenty years, I have been in very close contact with Poland since she became a Republic. Apart from that, visits to that part of Congress Poland which was formerly in Russian occupation before the last war, gave the opportunity of realizing how the Polish spirit was still alive all that time. It is for that reason that I admire the manner in which, with a brevity that was admirable, my noble friend made the best possible use of his time to represent to your Lordships the heroism of Poland.
There can be no lack of knowledge on the part of your Lordships of what has been published to support the story of the horrors perpetrated in that country. A Resolution of protest coming from this high platform and published throughout the world must have great effect. One could wish that it could do more and that something practical would follow immediately from the Resolution. But the next best thing is to let it be known throughout the world that from this high source comes a Resolution of this kind. My noble friend used words that could not be sufficiently emphatic in the indictment of the things of which he complains. He spoke with an emotion which could not be more fully justified. For these reasons, I wish to associate myself with this Motion and to express the hope that the eloquence with which it has been put will carry the House with it.
VISCOUNT CECIL OF CHELWOOD: My Lords, I will not detain your Lordships for more than a few moments at this late hour, but I should like to associate myself also with the Motion which has been so movingly submitted by my noble friend the Earl of Elgin. We are, as has been said—by the Archbishop of Canterbury, I think, certainly by somebody of that kind—in the presence of national crime which has no parallel in history. Certainly it has no parallel in many centuries of history. These are not just casual massacres and outrages committed by victorious troops. Such things have no doubt occurred on other occasions, and they are, of course, terrible in themselves. But here we have a quite deliberate attempt to extirpate the Polish people from a considerable part of what is now Poland. Obviously it has been planned most carefully, and it is being carried out by the wholesale massacre of men, women and children, by wholesale deportations carried out in such a way that miserable inhabitants of Poland have been removed to other countries practically without any form of support. Often these poor people have been deported, I read in the papers, without being allowed to take with them anything except the clothes which they stand up in. And not only have such things as these, horrible and deplorable as they are, taken place, but there has been a deliberate attempt to destroy everything that speaks of Polish history or Polish culture or Polish learning. Never has anything so cold-blooded, so brutal, so utterly damnable been done as the things that have been done by the German Forces and the German Government in this matter. They have destroyed many of Poland's universities, many of the Polish national monuments, many of the Polish libraries. All that has been done quite deliberately with the desire to destroy Polish life and Polish history.
I must not detain your Lordships now, but there is much more that might be said on this topic. I will content myself by saying that I, too, desire to associate myself heartily in the admiration so properly expressed by my noble friend for the immense courage displayed by the Poles in face of these terrific disasters. I cannot help feeling that the courage of the people who, sitting alone in their cottages or other dwellings, suddenly find

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themselves whirled off to torture and death, is perhaps greater than even the courage displayed on the field of battle. I venture, very heartily indeed, to express my admiration for all that the Poles, and indeed other nations and other peoples, have done. Do not let us forget, when speaking of the Poles, that their sufferings afford only one example of the horrors which have been perpetrated. When the most reverend Prelate the Archbishop of York spoke the other day he referred to the sufferings which have been imposed upon the Jews with equally great brutality, with equally great cruelty and with as much destruction as has been displayed in dealing with the Poles. No doubt we are in the presence of an outbreak of evil which has never been equalled, so far as I know, in the history of the world.
I hope and trust that the Government will find some means of making some kind of protest—I do not know what form it should take for the position is extremely difficult—to express the horror of our people at any rate for all these things that have been done. And, when the war is over, retribution must be made. But retribution, though it is necessary and proper, and will, I trust, be exacted with great solemnity and great determination, will, after all, not restore what the Poles have lost, nor will it wipe the tears from the eyes of those who are now mourning what they have lost.
LORD GORELL: My Lords, I, too, shall detain the House for a very few moments only at this late hour. I have no doubt that this Resolution will meet with the greatest sympathy from everyone, but the passing of such a Resolution, admirable as it may be in itself, does not alter the evil to which reference is made. I have been wondering whether the spokesman for His Majesty's Government would be able to say something by way of suggesting anything that can be done. I happen to be Chairman of the Refugee Children's Movement, and I would say that, however much we may sympathize with the sufferings of the adults, even more must we sympathize with the sufferings of the children. I am quite sure that that movement, if it were practicable, would assist, by its organization, in any way that was consonant with the plans or practicabilities of the situation. I hope His Majesty's Government may be able, in addition to rendering
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sympathy, to give some hope that in spite of the immense difficulties of transport and of the situation generally, something practical may be the outcome of that sympathy.
THE MINISTER OF ECONOMIC WARFARE (THE EARL OF SELBORNE): My Lords, on behalf of His Majesty's Government I gladly accept and support the Motion so eloquently moved by the noble Earl to-day. Poland has the eternal glory of having been the first country to bar the way of Hitler's aggression and to choose honour instead of servitude. Poland's record in this respect is indeed particularly honourable. Your Lordships will remember that she went to every length to try to live peaceably with her great German neighbour. You will remember that she even went to the length of entering into a Non-aggression Pact. We know that, in joining in that Pact, Hitler was merely pursuing his now well-known technique of first deceiving and disarming his victim while he was meditating an attack upon her. Then Germany turned against Poland on a series of trumped-up charges, and threw the whole of the carefully-prepared might of the German Reich against the neighbour to whom only a few months previously she had sworn solemn oaths of eternal friendship. We remember the magnificent gallantry with which the Poles, armed with inadequate weapons, fought against the onslaught of the German aircraft and tanks. Since that day, the whole fury of Nazidom has been poured and concentrated on Poland. The attack on Poland did not end in September, 1939; it has been going on ever since, as your Lordships have pointed out. The German Government have employed every method that ingenuity, assiduity and devilry could suggest to break the spirit of the Polish people. But they have not succeeded, and they never will succeed.
Poland has not only the glory of which I have spoken, but has also the glory of never having produced a single Quisling in all these long months of persecution, horror, torture and oppression. Not a single Quisling has come forward to do the dirty work of the German for him. Throughout the whole of this period of unexampled savagery and bestiality, the spirit of the Polish people has remained undaunted. They have carried on the warfare with good heart and with countless

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deeds of heroism and valour. Every day acts of valour are performed by the Polish people in defence of their rights and their liberties. They have never bowed the knee to the conqueror, and they never will.
In this terrible story, the Jewish citizens of Poland have suffered particularly severely, and I would call the attention of your Lordships to the noble Note addressed by the Polish Government on December 11 to the Allied Governments, denouncing the horrors of the Jewish persecution. His Majesty's Government are actively considering that Note in concert with our Allies, and I can assure your Lordships that there is no measure which it will be open for the Allies to take which we will not be willing to take in defence of the Polish people and of the Jews and other oppressed peoples under the Nazi heel. Any suggestions which the Polish Government can make, or indeed that your Lordships individually can make, to His Majesty's Government will be most carefully and sympathetically considered.
I repeat, these brutal measures have not broken the spirit of the Polish people. Even to-day the German immigrants, who have been imported into Poland in an attempt to supplant the Polish inhabitants, number only some 12 per cent. of the population. Just as Bismarck—who tried the same thing to drive out the Poles and populate the country with Germans—failed, so will Hitler fail. In the face of these horrors, we owe it to Polish heroism and to our Polish comrades to see that justice is done in the end. In the fight that the Poles are waging they are fighting not for their own rights and for their own liberties alone, but for the liberties of mankind as well. Furthermore, as my noble relative, Lord Cecil of Chelwood, said to your Lordships the other day, it is of supreme importance that the rule of law should be re-established in Europe. The rule of law, which used to govern the conduct of wars, has been destroyed by the Nazis. It is impossible to exaggerate the importance of ensuring as far as possible that, after the war, that spirit shall be stamped out, and it is therefore essential that the perpetrators of these outrages shall not be allowed to escape.
Let us make no mistake about it: these outrages have been deliberately organized from the beginning. On October 6, 1939,
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Arthur Greiser, the Gauleiter of the so-called Wartheland, referring to the German colonists who were being brought to Poland from all the provinces of the Reich, from the Baltic states, from Rumania and from Tyrol, declared:
"They come down here one and all to wage a merciless struggle against the Polish peasantry."
On November 27 of the same year, Albert Forster, the Gauleiter of DanzigWestpreussen, said in a public speech:
"I have been appointed by the Führer his trusted lieutenant for this area, and it is my duty to assure the final triumph of the German cause in these lands. I have received a clear order to Germanize this part of the country as quickly as possible."
As I have said, that effort, so mercilessly pursued, is going to be doomed to failure. The noble and learned Viscount who sits on the Woolsack has explained to your Lordships the steps which His Majesty's Government, in concert with our Allies, are taking in order that justice may be brought home to those who are responsible for these atrocities.
I can assure our Polish Allies that the stand that they have made, the fight which they have fought, and the sacrifices which they have borne will not be in vain. I was sorry to hear the noble Earl suggest that he might leave those words out of his Motion. I very much hope that he will not leave them out of his Motion. I would like to put it on record that what Poland has suffered will not be in vain. For a brighter day is dawning. The Polish Army, Navy and Air Force are waging war shoulder to shoulder with their Allies and our Allies, and even now the hour is drawing closer when retribution will fall on the criminals of Europe. The Polish nation led by its great Prime Minister General Sikorski will march to final victory. All our pledges to Poland to which the noble Earl referred will be honoured. Great Britain drew the sword to fulfil the first pledge that we gave to Poland; we shall not sheathe our sword until the last pledge has been fulfilled.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

QUESTION POSTPONED.
Loan SEMPILL: My Lords, in view of the lateness of the hour, I will not proceed with the question standing in my name.

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[The question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government, whether any agreement has been reached, or is under negotiation, with the United States of America, for the establishment, after the war, of a world bank entrusted with the right to issue and recall the currency and credit of this country.]

GLASGOW GAS ORDER, 1942.
Special Orders Committee to meet forthwith.
Report from the Special Orders Committee, That no Petition has been presented praying to be heard against the Special Order, and that there is nothing in this Order to which they think it necessary to call the attention of the House.
Read, and ordered to lie on the Table.

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932.
Orders made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department extending Section I of the Act to the

Rural District of Faringdon:

Rural District of Overton;

Urban District of Spalding.

Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and ordered to lie on the Table.