Lords Sitting of 6 August 1942

Preamble
The House met, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
LORD SNELL: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend the noble Viscount, Lord Cranborne, I beg to move the first Motion standing in his name on the Paper.
Moved, That the sitting of the House to consider the Motion of the Lord Winster be in Secret Session.—(Lord Snell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.
LORD SNELL: My Lords, again on behalf of my noble friend Lord Cranborne, I beg to move the second Motion which stands on the Paper in his name.
Moved, That Standing Order No. XXXIX be considered in order to its being dispensed with for the purpose of passing the Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill through its remaining stages.—(Lord Snell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (POOLE) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPROPRIATION) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD SNELL: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Snell.)
On Question, Bill read 2a: Committee negatived.
Then, Standing Order No. XXXIX having been dispensed with, Bill read 3a, and passed.
House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed.

ROYAL COMMISSION.
The Royal Assent was given to the following Bills and Measure:

Appropriation.

War Damage (Amendment).

Allied Powers (War Service).

National Service (Foreign Countries).

United States of America (Visiting Forces).

Housing (Rural Workers).

Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Poole).

Bilston Corporation.

Coventry Corporation.

Loans (Postponement of Repayment) Measure, 1942.

House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed.

SECRET SESSION.
The Notice on the Paper in the name of Lord Winster was as follows:
To call attention to the conduct of the war at sea; and to move for Papers.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT SIMON): Strangers will withdraw.
Then, in pursuance of the Resolution that the sitting of the House to consider the Motion of Lord Winster be in Secret Session, the Official Reporter withdrew.
House in Secret Session.
House resumed in Open Session.

A REFUGEE'S SPEECH.
LORD DAVIES: My Lords, I beg to ask the first question standing in my name.
[The question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government, what were the reasons for the failure of the B.B.C. to broadcast to Germany a recording of the remarkable speech delivered on 12th July at the Caxton Hall by Johann Fladung, who recently escaped to this country after undergoing extreme physical torture in German concentration camps as a result of his anti-Nazi activities.]
THE MINISTER OF ECONOMIC WARFARE (THE EARL OF SELBORNE): My Lords, the meeting at the Caxton

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Hall, which was held in connexion with the exhibition entitled "Allies inside Germany", was in fact reported to Germany on the following day. In the report it was stated that both British and German speakers had taken part. Herr Fladung was one of several speakers. In the time available, it was not possible to broadcast all these speeches, and it was therefore decided to give an account of the meeting rather than to record any single speech.
LORD DAVIES: Arising out of that reply may I ask the noble Earl whether some further opportunity will be given to this man to broadcast?
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I will see that that suggestion of my noble friend is conveyed to the Minister of Information.

DEER PARKS.
LORD DAVIES: My Lords, I beg to ask the second question standing in my name.
[The question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government, how many herds of park deer are still being maintained in this country and the total number of deer concerned; what is the aggregate acreage of land grazed by these animals; and what steps are being taken to utilize these parks and similar enclosures for the production of food.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (THE DUKE OF NORFOLK): My Lords, my Department has no up-to-date statistical information as regards the number of deer, but in carrying out their duties in connexion with the food production campaign, county war agricultural executive committees have paid particular attention to deer parks and arrangements have been made for the ploughing-up of suitable land and the grazing of the land by ordinary farm stock, the number of deer being necessarily reduced in consequence.

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932: BOROUGH OF SURBITON ORDER.

  URBAN DISTRICT OF PICKERING ORDER.
  LORD SNELL: My Lords, I beg to move that these Orders be approved.
  Moved, That the Orders made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department under the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, and laid before the House yesterday, be approved.—(Lord Snell.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

ADJOURNMENT: STATEMENT BY VISCOUNT BENNETT.
LORD SNELL: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.
Moved, That the House do now adjourn.—(Lord Snell.)
VISCOUNT BENNETT: My Lords, before that Motion is put I should like to speak for a moment on a question of privilege. I was reported yesterday at column 220 of the Official Report as saying:
"There seems, however, to be some difficulty with regard to the question of what they are fighting for. I should therefore welcome a statement from the Government as to what we are fighting for, and it would be welcomed by the people who live in that part of the King's dominions in which I was born."
The noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack, in the concluding part of his speech, said he would stop there if it were not for one observation made by me. He went on:
"He thought … that there were many people perhaps in the Fighting Services, still asking what we are fighting for. Is it not plain that this world-wide conflict with all its horrors and sacrifices is being fought with the double purpose of delivering mankind from slavery and of establishing a better world hereafter?"
I was dealing entirely with post-war conditions and not with the causes of the war. I have made a good many speeches about the causes of war, and I dare say I shall continue to do so, but yesterday I was not asking why the war was being fought but what we were fighting for. I think the noble and learned Viscount unwittingly suggested that I had some doubt why the war was being fought. I can best illustrate my point by reciting to your Lordships a little incident that

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occurred recently. A soldier, one of the volunteers from Canada, said to me that his father was killed in the last war, and he felt his duty to volunteer and come over and participate in this conflict, but he hoped that his child would not have to come twenty-five years hence to take part in another war of this character. He pointed out, what is perfectly true, that in the last war we spoke of a war to end war and a war to make the world safe for democracy. What I was suggesting yesterday was that it was desirable to indicate clearly, without any question, that we propose, as far as is in our power, to see to it that there are guarantees that conditions such as prevailed before cannot again prevail in this world. I mention this because the construction seems to have been put upon my remarks that there is doubt on the part of Service men as to what we are fighting for. There is no doubt in their minds that they are fighting for their homes and civilization itself; but the question was whether they understood the international implications, whether there would be guarantees for the safety of the people in the future.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT SIMON): My Lords, I did not know that my noble friend was mentioning this.
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Perhaps he will be good enough to tell me which is the column in which there is actually reported what he said.
VISCOUNT BENNETT: Column 220.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Oh yes. I see the noble Viscount explained the reason why he intervened, saying:
"There is no difficulty I find, when one talks, for instance, to Service men from the Dominions and to those in this country who are engaged in the great conflict, in determining what they are fighting against internationally. There seems, however, to be some difficulty with regard to the question of what they are fighting for."
I happened to hear that remark, and I hope my noble friend thinks that the observations which I made, which were not at all of a critical character, did appropriately state what we were fighting for. At any rate, I made that as plain as ever I could, and I do not suppose that there is any difference between us.
VISCOUNT BENNETT: My Lords, I am bound to say that I do not think that it did make it clear that there was an international side to what we are fighting for—namely, to guarantee security against another war of this kind.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House adjourned.