§ THE EARL OF MANSFIELD also had the following question on the Paper: To ask His Majesty's Government, if they are aware that the Air Ministry has informed the Scottish Education Department that the travelling expenses of Air Training Corps cadets may not be defrayed from public funds, although various education committees have willingly up to now met such expenses; if it is realized, that this decision will gravely affect the progress of the Air Training Corps in the remoter districts, where the great majority of the cadets cannot afford the cost of travelling between their homes and the usually far-distant training centres; and whether, in view of these circumstances, the matter will be reconsidered.
249§ The noble Earl said: My Lords, the question I am now going to bring up is one, I think, of considerable importance. I must apologize to your Lordships for appearing so frequently on the Order Paper to-day. The only reason for that is that it is so difficult for me to obtain sufficient time to come here from Scotland, and when I do come I must make the most of my opportunities in your Lordships' House. When that invaluable institution, the Air Training Corps, was set up, local authorities were asked to cooperate, and this I think has been done with the greatest unanimity and alacrity. In my own area it was found that there is no way in which the expenses of the cadets who were attending courses, often many miles from their homes, could be met. Travelling expenses are often heavy. Sometimes cars have to be hired to take the group from a village to their classroom, and sometimes cars again have to be hired to take them home because there were no 'buses owing to the limitation of numbers available for that purpose.
§ Until recently my own county continued this without any demur, but gradually more and more small places asked for the facilities to be extended as more and more flights were set up in various parts of our area. Eventually the education committee came to the conclusion that the burden was becoming a little heavy, and they therefore asked the Scottish Education Department if they would represent to the Air Ministry that as this was a national service it was only fair that the expenses of the cadets attending training should be met by the Air Ministry. A reply has now been received by the Scottish Education Department from the Air Ministry that they regret they do not consider that the travelling expenses of Air Training Corps cadets should be defrayed from public funds. The Scottish Education Department apparently interpret public money as meaning not only money under the direct control of the Treasury but also money at the disposal of the local authorities. They seem to decree that it is therefore no longer admissible for county councils and education committees to provide the necessary money for the travelling expenses of these cadets. I am not quite certain myself whether this interpretation is correct, but I wish to suggest to your Lordships that neither decision reflects very creditably upon the Air Ministry.
250§ If it is still possible for local authorities to spend money in paying for the 'bus fares and other travelling expenses of the air cadet's training, it obviously follows that the cost will bear more heavily upon scattered areas than upon densely populated urban areas. As the A.T.C. is universally regarded as of such great value and as we constantly hear from highly-placed Air Force officers how very much they esteem it, it is hardly fair that the Air Ministry should seek to put what ought to be a national responsibility upon the shoulders of local authorities. If no public funds of any kind, not even those under control of local authorities, may be expended in this way, I would suggest that the position is really intolerable. It will mean that in many scattered areas, particularly in Scotland, Wales and the forth of England, many cadets will be unable to continue their training because the great majority of them come from homes in comparatively humble circumstances and cannot afford to pay week by week the sums involved for travelling. Otherwise the people in those areas who still have a little spare cash or are willing to stint themselves will have to put their hands in their pockets and establish a private fund for paying expenses which should be met by His Majesty's Government. I shall be very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Sherwood, if he will state what is the actual position. If it is that the Air Ministry are unwilling to take responsibility, I would ask him to reconsider this, and if it is that no public funds are to be considered available then I must warn him that after the Recess there will be a Motion on the subject which will be pressed, if necessary, to a Division.
§ THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR AIR (LORD SHERWOOD)My Lords, the point which the noble Earl has brought up is one which apparently is not clearly understood and therefore I must detain your Lordships for a short time while I explain the reason for the present policy which has been recently reviewed and re-affirmed. That policy is that Air Training Corps units can pay from their Air Ministry grants travelling expenses in the case of collective travelling of cadets when they move from their normal place of duty to some other place such as on a visit to an R.A.F. station or for travelling to camp. On the other hand 251 it is not the policy to pay the travelling expenses of cadets travelling individually from their homes or place of work to their normal place of duty The prime reason for this—and I think your Lordships will agree with me here—is that it would be out of accord with the spirit of the Air Training Corps to pay normal travelling expenses. In undertaking service of this kind a cadet joins with the idea of service and not for payment. Once you create in a Cadet force the idea that everything has got to be paid for by the State, you will do great harm to the Cadet Corps.
There are other points which I should mention because I think they should be realized by people who bring up hard cases. One is the administrative difficulty. To pay these expenses would add enormously to the paper work of the administrative side, and that is one of the things about which the Home Guards have complained. There is also the question of cost. It is very easy to say that this is a very small matter and would amount to very little. What would the cost be? Suppose one cadet in four received payment for travelling and that the average payment was 2s. a week. That would bring the cost up to a figure of £250,000 a year with the present number of cadets. The total grant we now get for the A.T.C. is under that figure. The matter of course would not stop there because the principle would have to be made applicable to Sea Cadets and Army Cadets and to all other organizations similarly placed.
The noble Earl brought up a question about which there seems to have been some misunderstanding in Scotland. It is a point I would like to make clear. It is true that payment of expenses may be made to boys attending part-time voluntary classes arranged by the local authorities. Local education authorities are allowed, if they wish, to pay expenses in cases where the distance to be travelled is long and the boys cannot afford to pay their own. The local authority can do exactly as it wishes. The system of paying travelling expenses for educational classes is not obligatory on a local authority, nor is it universal, and it is not the Air Ministry's intention that educational authorities should be debarred from making these payments if they wish simply because some of the boys attending 252 the classes are members of the Air Training Corps. There has been some misapprehension about this and action has been taken to clear up the misunderstanding which occurred in Scotland. I do not think the problem is as serious as the noble Earl has suggested. After all, we want these cadets and we can only be judged by the number that we obtain. During the last year 200 units have been formed and of these 32 are in Scotland. I think the answer to this problem is to form more units so that they can be closer together and the cadets can get training without having to travel too far. It would strike a serious blow at the voluntary system if boys went into the Cadet Corps not in a spirit of service but feeling that everything would be paid for.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELDMy Lords, arising out of that reply, while I am glad to learn that there has been a misapprehension and that local authorities will still be able to pay, I would ask my noble friend if he is aware that in Scotland, as well as in many parts of England, there are great distances to be covered by, these cadets, that local centres are far too small to justify the establishment of local units, and that if this pettifogging parsimony is continued by the Air Ministry it will certainly mean the loss of a considerable number of potentially valuable cadets? Is he also aware that the payment of travelling expenses has never been considered as invalidating the voluntary status of anyone? And is he further aware that this attempt on the part of the Air Ministry to shift on to the shoulders of local authorities a responsibility which should be a national one is hardly worthy of us in time of war?