COAL SUPPLY.

HL Deb 01 October 1941 vol 120 cc116-48

THE EARL OF LISTOWEL asked His Majesty's Government what steps they are taking to ensure an adequate supply of industrial and domestic coal during the winter months; and moved for Papers. The noble Earl said: My Lords, while I was preparing these few remarks on coal I was also taking part in a mock battle which was being waged in the Midlands. I hope that your Lordships will make allowances for the distractions of military life. I venture to bring this matter up in the hope that it will be a convenient moment for reviewing the position of the coal-mining industry. We are approaching the end of the normal period for stocking coal for winter use, and it should perhaps be possible for the Government to give us some idea of what they have been able to put aside and what steps they propose to take to accelerate production during the period of maximum coal consumption that lies ahead.

The admittedly extraordinarily difficult problem that has faced the Government has been to correlate demand and supply in one of our really key war-time industries, an industry as vital to our war effort as the shipbuilding and aircraft industries. The Government were, of course, aware from the outbreak of the war that the production of coal must not only be maintained at its pre-war level but be gradually expanded to keep pace with the growing demands of munition and machine factories. In the last war we experienced an acute coal shortage as a result of the enormously increased demand for coal. Similar conditions must surely have been anticipated in the autumn of 1939; yet there was no long-range planning for the coal-mining industry during the first eighteen months of the present war and, on the contrary, free play was given to certain economic and military factors which drained the manpower of the industry and rendered a certain degree of coal stringency inevitable as soon as our economic system was finally placed on a war footing.

It was not, indeed, until the last six months, when we were already faced with a rate of production from the pits which threatened a grave reduction in our supplies, that the Government decided to intervene actively to stimulate the production of coal. A certain lack of foresight in the highest quarters is, therefore, largely responsible for the present unhappy position; but no one wishes to throw stones at men who are so hard worked and who are shouldering such heavy burdens as our political leaders. What people really want, I am sure, is to know that everything possible is being done to straighten things out. There are clearly two ways in which the gap between supply and demand can be closed; either, on the one hand, by reducing consumption until it no longer exceeds our limited supplies of coal, 0r, on the other hand, by increasing production until it reaches the level of the demands of war-time coal consumers. Rightly and properly, the Government are trying out both these methods. One important economy, if I may venture to make a suggestion, would be to cut out the overseas consumer as far as this can be done without reducing our imports of essential war materials or the supplies which we send to the Empire and which are unobtainable elsewhere. In 1939 it was estimated that we exported 15,000,000 tons of coal. If we could direct the bulk of this to the home market we should certainly lose no time in doing so. Speaking in another place in August last, the Secretary for Mines announced a further curtailment in the export of certain classes of coal usually sent abroad. That was good news. We could save shipping as well as fuel by reducing our export business to a minimum.

There are further economies which could be made at the expense of the home consumer. Passenger services on the railways have been considerably reduced, but they have not yet been cut down to an irreducible minimum. It is not enough for the Government to exhort the public not to travel; they should render unnecessary travel impossible by not allowing the railways to run additional trains at Christmas time and during holiday periods, and by obliging them to cut the rest of their passenger traffic to the bone. Over 5,000 tons of coal were used by relief trains on August Bank holiday; surely while present conditions continue that should not be repeated. Few can be satisfied that we have succeeded in stopping the wasteful use of gas and electricity. There is surely unneccessary brilliance in many shop windows, to give only one instance of where we could save light. I hope that the Government will take this opportunity of appealing to all domestic and business consumers to make an unprecedented effort to save gas and electricity this winter, and that they will in the near future introduce severe all-round rationing of these commodities. Certain appeals have been made, and they arc very valuable; but I do not believe that they will achieve their result unless they are combined with compulsory rationing.

If all these suggested economies in consumption were made, added together, and subtracted from the total demand for coal this winter, we should still have an aggregate figure which would be enormously greater than the corresponding figure for last year or the year before. The fact is that our war industries have only just got into their full stride. To give one example, we are consuming 50 per cent. more electricity per annum than we were in 1939. I am sure that it will be universally admitted, therefore, that every effort is required if we are to increase production to the point where we can keep our war industries going at their maximum level. In March of the present year the Lord President of the Council appealed to mineowners and miners alike for an additional 24,000,000 tons of coal between April and October, so as to provide the 38,000,000 tons of coal needed as stocks and estimated by the Coal Production Council to be the amount required to tide us over the winter months. This would have meant a production of 4,500,000 tons of coal per week over the whole period. The futility of bare exhortation without any legislative action became apparent two months later, when a serious shortage had already set in.

The March programme had to be scrapped, and the stocking target was reduced, by an announcement in another place, from 38,000,000 tons to 34,000,000 tons. The President of the Board of Trade announced that in April and May production had averaged only 4,000,000 tons a week, and that to wipe off the deficit the future output, starting from June, would have to exceed considerably the original estimate of 4,500,000 tons per week. I am using figures which are accessible to the general public and am therefore not giving away any secrets. Further, we have no official figures for the average weekly output during May, June, July, August and September, and no knowledge of how much has been added to our coal stocks during that period. I am not asking for the figures because if they are disappointing, as one fears, the Government will rightly and obviously withhold them. But it does not seem to be an unwarrantable conclusion from the published facts that none of the measures taken so far by the Government has succeeded in pumping new life into the coal-mining industry. I venture to think that production will not be substantially increased without further improvement in the conditions of work of the miners, and at the same time a more rapid enrolment of ex-miners at present engaged in other occupations or in the Forces, to swell the numbers employed in the mines.

One would have thought, for instance, that adequate safety measures were a fundamental requirement for a satisfactory level of output, but the startling increase in the number of fatal accidents due to falls of ground at the coal face in the last nine months indicates that standards of safety have already begun to fall. I should like to know—I apologise to the noble Lord opposite for not giving him notice of this question: he may possibly be able to find out the answer—I should like to know whether the Government are satisfied that the prescribed standards of ventilation and roof support are being maintained, and, if not, what action the Government propose to take.

Another very serious obstacle to coal production has been the miner's war-time diet. He has been working longer hours on less food. The fact is—and I think it is generally admitted—that he has not been getting enough to eat; with the result that ill-health and fatigue have lessened output. The remedy so far preferred has been an increase of eight ounces in the cheese ration and, at the same time, the opening of pit-head canteens where hot meals or meat pies and sandwiches are obtainable at reasonable prices. Such improvements, though admirable in themselves, are not as yet providing the extra nourishment required by the mining population. The new canteens are exceedingly slow in getting under way. For instance, in August, there were only two in the whole of Scotland. I am delighted to see the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, opposite and perhaps he may be able to reassure us; but at present I am convinced that the Ministry of Food is not supplying the canteens with a sufficient quantity of food to meet the dietetic requirements of the miner. I hope these supplies may be increased in the near future.

Furthermore, even when the ration scheme is completed it will not cater for the whole coal-mining industry and that, I think, is a conclusion that can be drawn from the words spoken by the Secretary for Mines in another place. Surely the most effective remedy would be an immediate supplementary ration of meat, bacon and, possibly, cheese for all heavy workers, distributed through the canteens where they have been started or where they will be started and, in those mining areas where such facilities do not exist, through the local shops. I know that this proposal has been considered: I hope that it may be given further consideration. The Prime Minister yesterday in the course of his speech said that the basic ration of the whole population would be increased by Christmas. I think that was a conclusion at any rate that many have drawn from a careful reading of the Prime Minister's speech. Well, I cannot help feeling that if this increase is going to be made, the start should be made with increased distribution for all the heavy workers and that whatever surplus is left after that has been made should go to sedentary and less heavy workers.

Finally, to come to the most important factor in stimulating production, it is generally considered, I think, that this lies in the return of a sufficiently large number of competent ex-miners to the coalmining industry. Since the war something like 100,000 men have gone from the mines into other occupations or into the Forces. The Coal Production Council appealed in March of this year for the return of 50,000 miners. At the beginning of August the President of the Board of Trade told us that 6,000 men had already drifted back from industry, and that they were the vanguard of a contingent of some 25,000. At the beginning of last month the Secretary for Mines informed the members of another place that 16,000 men had already returned to the industry and that 14,000 more were expected to go back. These figures show a very welcome increase during August in the speed of bringing men back to the mines, and it will be interesting to have the very latest figure of the Mines Department, if the noble Lord opposite can give it us.

But when all these 30,000 fresh recruits from industry' have been absorbed by the coal mines they will still have only just over half the number of men asked for by the Coal Production Council and the Government this spring. Besides, there is a very widely-held opinon that most of the men who are coming in from other industries are not really the type of reinforcement that the coal-mining industry requires. Many of them, for instance, have not been down the pits for several years and have lost their skill as mechanical miners. On the average they are certainly older than is desirable for work under ground, and it is also said that their morale is less good than that of the volunteers who have joined the Services. Now, the immediate need is for more hewers to break the coal from the seam, and it is widely held that these men can only be provided in sufficient numbers by the recall of young miners now serving in the Armed Forces. This view has been supported, among many others, by the noble Lord, Lord Aberconway, than whom few have a longer experience of the coal-mining industry. He wrote in a letter to The Times last month as follows: If the Government really want more coal they must send back from the Forces the men who are sure to help the output.

But it is certainly an error, and I fear a widely-held error, to suppose that the Army cannot make full use of every man who joins it.

As a soldier I am possibly even more keenly aware than the average civilian of the imperative need of man-power for the Army. The maintenance, for instance, of a large force in this island, even if it cannot actively engage the enemy, is a strategic necessity. At the same time it could hardly be said that the man-power for the British Army was less indispensable in 1915 and 1916 than it is now. At that time we were actually recalling men from the trenches in order to put them back in the pits. I cannot help thinking it is doubtful whether a temporary discharge of, say, 20,000 young men, the equivalent of one division, would make the vital difference between victory and defeat on the field of battle. Moreover, if the Government are convinced that the recall of these men is the only hope of producing the maximum of war material and equipment, not only for ourselves but for our gallant Russian Ally, whose need is even more urgent than ours, and the only way of providing a reasonable amount of warmth in our homes this winter, they should be prepared to take a bold decision and even to reverse the policy they have pursued hitherto.

What I am venturing to ask for is, in a nut-shell, as full a statement as is possible about the present situation, and some idea of what the Government are doing to meet it. The people of the country, I am certain, are not dismayed by disappointing news in war-time, and they tend to trust political leaders who trust them. The encouragement they really need is the knowledge that the Government realize the extreme gravity of the coal problem and that they are doing everything humanly possible to speed up production. I beg to move for Papers.

LORD TEMPLEMORE

My Lords, as representative in your Lordships' House of the Department of Mines, it falls to me to answer the important question raised by my noble friend. It may be for the convenience of the House that I should speak now. That does not mean in the least that the debate need be limited, because, after I have sat down, it will be open to any noble Lord who wishes to continue the discussion and raise any point he likes. I know my noble friend Lord Snell will be ready to do his best to answer any questions that may be raised. First of all, I should like to congratulate the noble Earl on his safe return from active service and on the speech he has delivered. From my experience of manœuvres in former days, I should have thought they were the last place to inspire such a speech as that with which my noble friend has edified and pleased the House. If, in reviewing the coal production position since the commencement of the war, I take some little time, I would ask your Lordships to excuse me because this is a very important matter, and it is due to the noble Earl and to your Lordships that I should make as full a statement as possible.

During the winter of 1939 the supplies available from the coal-fields sufficed with difficulty to meet our needs, including those of our war-time industries in early organization and the needs of our Allies. During the winter of 1939–40 it became clear that great efforts were needed to meet the growing requirements of war-time industries and the increasing demands from our Allies. Therefore, in the spring of 1940, an intensive drive was commenced with the object of increasing substantially the output of coal from all the coal-fields of Great Britain. That drive was making very substantial progress when, in June, 1940, as everyone is aware, there came the collapse of France. The output at that time had reached nearly 5,000,000 tons a week, and the immediate withdrawal of the demand for exportation meant a reduction in the requirements of more than 500,000 tons weekly. It was necessary to curtail output in a great many directions, and it was impossible to withstand the pressure, which was then becoming intense, for the release of men for the Fighting Forces. At the same time substantial numbers of men became unemployed in the districts identified with the export trade, and those who were not called up for military service found employment which was readily available in other industries, notably the manufacture of munitions.

A drain from the coal-fields thus commenced which continued throughout the summer of 1940, and the position in the winter of 1940 was that the strength of the coal-mining industry had been substantially reduced, though the output of coal was still sufficient to meet the current demands. During the winter of 1940 enemy action made it very difficult to transport even the output of coal which was a available, and although there were grave difficulties to be overcome in maintaining the public utilities of the country and supplying the needs of industries, I would stress the point that these difficulties were difficulties of transport and not of production. As your Lordships will remember, at this time last year the German bombing of London and other cities was at its height. At that time a great many stations in London and elsewhere were bombed, some of them repeatedly, and a great many marshalling yards were out of action for some days. Early this year a review was made of the growing need of war-time industry, and it became apparent to my Department that steps were needed to stop immediately the declining output which had been in operation since the French went out of the war. A programme of production was drawn up related to the growing needs of the war effort, and the position was reached which has been mentioned—namely, that in March of this year a programme of production was put before the industry which demanded an output sufficient to meet current requirements and to accumulate reserves to make safe the supply position during the winter of 1941–42, now close at hand.

It will be realized that it was difficult to recapture among the personnel of the industry the enthusiasm which had been devoted to improving the output of coal before the collapse of France. It was difficult, moreover, in face of the demands of the Forces and the munitions industry for man-power, to prove the need of the coal-mining industry for the return of men. In this connection I was glad to hear my noble friend stress in his speech the fact that it is not easy in an Army such as we have got now to take men out of it. People sometimes talk very glibly on platforms, or write in the Press, about withdrawing men from the Army for mining and other purposes, but it is a very difficult thing to do. The fact is, as your Lordships are aware, we have now got an Army of experts, and very many of these men are in the Army, not because they have been called up, but because they were members of the Army Reserve or of the Territorial Army, so they would have had to go anyhow. Also, a great many of these men, if they were not promoted before, have got promotion since the war began, and are now noncommissioned officers in responsible positions, and it is almost impossible to spare them.

To return to the mining industry, it had lost 10 per cent. of its strength—70,000 men—and it was clear that part at least of the loss must be made good. A decision was taken that men should not be recalled from the Armed Forces until every effort had been made to secure the return of miners from other industries. Accordingly, an appeal was made in June for volunteers from among the coal miners who had gone to other industries to return to the pits. This was followed by a registration of ex-miners in other industries on July 17 and 18, when the response to the call for volunteers had failed to secure the substantial numbers needed. Over 100,000 ex-miners registered of whom more than 25,000 expressed their readiness to return to the pits: but out of the total number registering, a large proportion were men who had left the coal-mining industry by reason of physical unfitness, and there were in addition substantial numbers of men who had attained skill in other industries from which they could ill be spared to return to the pits.

I am unable on public grounds—and I am sure the noble Earl will not press me—to go into details, but I can say that up to the present time 21,800 men have been placed in work at the pits. Further steps have been taken to secure and maintain a labour force adequate to meet the demands which it is estimated will be made on the industry this winter and during the coming year. Under the Coal Production Council, which has advised the Mines Department during the whole period, district production committees have been set up in all the coal-fields of Great Britain. Operating under them are pit production committees at each pit with the object of taking all steps necessary to secure the maximum production. Regular reports are made to headquarters, and it is hoped that the steps taken will maintain and improve the output from the mines. Quite recently my right honourable friend the President of the Board of Trade visited all the production areas for the purpose of giving the fullest possible support to the work of the district and pit production committees and of securing the fullest possible co-operation between them.

Concurrently with these measures the Essential Work (Coal-Mining Industry) Order was brought into operation to ensure, first, that there should be no drain on the personnel of the industry through men moving on to other work, and, secondly, that in the industry itself men should be guaranteed a wage for each week which would put them in a position comparable to that obtaining in other industry where employment tends to be more regular than in coal mining. Reservation ages have been fixed for men employed in coal mines which, having regard to the circumstances of the time, I think gives the industry all reasonable protection, and there has been in operation during the summer an arrangement by which special retention of workers in the mining industry has been permitted. At the same time steps have been taken to improve the amenities available for men at the pits, and concessions have been made in regard to the rations.

The noble Earl who raised this matter laid a certain amount of stress on this. He contended that the number of canteens was insufficient. I had an opportunity, while he was speaking, of conferring with my noble friend the Minister of Food, who was in his place, and he told me that up to now 375 collieries have been provided with these canteens, that 400 more are in preparation, and that before long these canteens will cover 85 per cent. of the workers in the trade. As regards the question of food, an allowance of cheese has been granted for all underground workers, and the extra allowance of meat normally available for workers in other industries in their canteens has been made available also to miners, and they are allowed to use it to provide meals to take down the pit or in the canteens. I have, however, to say that my honourable friend the Secretary for Mines has been reluctantly compelled to acquiesce in the decision of my noble friend Lord Woolton that further concessions in the way of increased rations for miners are not possible. As to the quotation which the noble Earl made from the speech of the Prime Minister yesterday, I can only say this. My noble friend stated that the Prime Minister said yesterday that increased rations would be given to everybody by Christmas. I do not think that is exactly what the Prime Minister said, but I would rather not go into that now, because I have not had an opportunity of studying the speech closely. I do not think, however, that the Prime Minister said exactly what my noble friend stated.

The Minister of Mines has arranged with the Miners' Welfare Commission to supervise arrangements at the pits for serving meals, and to use their funds to provide canteen accommodation at the pits in order that not only the rationed foods but other food may be made available for the mine workers in the same way as is customary in other industries. My noble friend raised the question of Treasury grants. At present no question arises of Treasury grants in addition to the grants from the Miners' Welfare Fund because the funds available to the latter are probably sufficient to meet what is needed. I am told, at least, that up to now no question of a shortage of funds has arisen. I will now deal with a point raised by my noble friend about accidents. I have been able to get an answer to his question. There has been an increase in the number of accidents, but they have taken place at the coal face where control is difficult. The standards of safety have not been relaxed in any way and the Ministry and the officials of the different collieries are trying in every way they can to keep down the number of these accidents, as of course they always do.

Now I shall turn for a moment to the question of supplies. Your Lordships will be aware, from previous Ministerial statements, of the special efforts which are being made to safeguard the position of the public utility undertaking. In this matter the Mines Department is guided by a committee of public utility representatives and the encouraging results so far achieved are largely due to their unremitting efforts. The coal stocks of the water undertakings are now such that their position may be regarded as fully safeguarded against possible interruption of supplies next winter. The tonnage in stock at electricity undertakings is only a little below the exceptionally high figure of a year ago, and the reserves are fairly evenly distributed throughout the country. The position of the gas industry is less satisfactory and the present inadequate stocks at a number of individual works must be a matter of serious concern. The number of such works is, however, decreasing and a very intensive effort now being made to place the gas industry in a reasonably secure position before the winter is progressing favourably.

So far as essential industry is concerned, the position is satisfactory. The stocks of coal held by industry are substantially higher than they were at this time last year, and such difficulties as exist are almost entirely of a local or special character. In certain areas, where the development of war industry has proceeded at an exceptionally high level and where local production of coal is always insufficient to meet demand, it has not been easy to arrange for the importation from other coal-fields of the largely increased quantities of coal which are required. The area committees of the Departments regional officers concerned arc dealing with the problem and special steps are being taken to increase the quantity of coal available to these areas.

In this connexion I should like to refer to the effect of the increasing demand for specially sized and graded coals. While the importance of providing the most suitable fuel for industrial plants, especially in the case of essential war industry, is fully realized in the Department, the great expansion of demand for these types of coal is becoming increasingly difficult to meet. His Majesty's Government would like to appeal to all consumers to do everything in their power to make use, where necessary, of types of fuel to which they are not accustomed and, whenever possible, to release the relatively limited supplies of graded fuel for those essential industrial plants which are unable to make use of alternatives. My noble friend raised the question of excessive lighting in shops. I have not a note about that matter enabling me to reply to him, but I can assure him that his point will be duly noted by the Department and I have no doubt that steps will be taken to appeal to the shops not to use so much. I quite realize the importance of what my noble friend said, that the shops throughout the country use a great deal.

As regards the domestic consumer, so far as his or her position is concerned, the priority needs of essential industry have necessarily reduced the total supplies of house coal available for the domestic market. There is reason to believe that the stocks of coal in consumers' cellars is considerable, and as a result of the restrictions on excessive stocking by individual householders introduced in July, those stocks should be better distributed than in previous years. But the stocks in merchants' depots are less than last year. On the other hand it is hoped, as a result of arrangements now being made in collaboration with the House Coal Distribution (Emergency) Scheme, to secure a better balance in the distribution throughout the country of the supplies of house coal coming from the collieries than was achieved last year.

The Government have no desire to conceal the fact that unless there is a marked improvement in production there may well be a certain shortage of household coal during the coming winter and they would appeal again to all consumers to exercise the utmost economy in the use of coal, gas and power. They do not, so far as can be foreseen, anticipate hardship or shortage of a nature to justify a general rationing scheme, but they will not hesitate to impose restriction on the domestic use of coal either locally or nationally, if circumstances appear to justify it.

And now I come to the question of transport. As I said at the beginning of my speech, during last winter the railways were working under very difficult conditions with the long hours of blackout and enemy air attacks. In addition they had to carry a very large volume of other war traffic and increased imports, often by unusual routes, and the inevitable reduction of coast-wise shipping meant that more traffic of all kinds had to be transferred to the railways. These circumstances may very well recur this winter, but steps have been taken to minimize their effect as much as possible. A Mines Department Transport Committee, which includes representatives from the Ministry of War Transport, the Railway Executive Committee and the railway companies, is meeting regularly to review the coal transport situation and take suitable action where required. This Committee will continue the work which was carried our during last winter by the Executive Sub-Committee of the Lord President's Coal Committee. The Department is continuing its policy of last winter of running special coal trains each week from Northumberland and Durham and from the Midlands and South Wales. These programmes serve to supplement coast-wise shipments to the south of England and to meet the increasing demands of war factories in such areas as Lancashire, and they were only made possible by the reduction of passenger services. Production on the north-east coast and in the Midlands has not always been sufficient to enable these facilities to be fully used, but in order to meet the increase in production which is now taking place it has been agreed to run an extra thirty trains a week from the north-east coast, and if the railways are able to do so these train programmes will be still further extended if the situation demands it. Arrangements have also been made to work the Cumberland ports to full capacity for shipments of coal to Lancashire, the south-west of England and Northern Ireland. A substantial measure of priority was accorded in the early part of the year for coal traffic to certain Great Western destinations, mainly from the Midland (Amalgamated) District, and this district has now agreed a flexible programme of traffic through all the exchange junctions to the Great Western system.

To deal with special problems of South Wales traffic a joint committee of colliery owners and representatives of the railway companies was set up to regulate the flow of coal from the collieries to conform with the amount which could be handled each week by the railways. This was substantially higher than what had been previously carried. At the beginning of May, by the adoption of exceptional measures, the railways were able to increase the figure to 150,000 tons a week, and at the beginning of September the figure of 175,000 tons a week was reached. Although during the winter it will naturally not be possible to maintain the high levels possible just now, it is hoped to transport a much higher tonnage out of South Wales by rail than could be done last year.

The railway companies have made and are making considerable structural improvements on the railway system to avoid congestions and to increase line and marshalling yard capacity. Attention has also been paid to speeding up rail working at night. These improvements should have a considerable effect in increasing capacity for rail transport of coal during the coming winter. The winter tendency for shortage of wagons was intensified last year by war conditions. In order to avoid as far as possible a recurrence of the shortages experienced last winter the Mines Department have taken measures to effect a quicker turn-round of coal wagons by the appointment of Coal Traffic Inspectors. Agreement has been reached between the coal traders and the railways on the question of demurrage on wagons of house coal, and a Central Wagon Control has been instituted by the Ministry of War Transport to promote the proper distribution of wagons between coal-fields with good results. It is expected to assist materially in mitigating the effects of this winter's conditions on wagon supplies.

In the interest of transport economy and to increase the carrying capacity of the railways, steps have been taken to develop still further the movement of coal in trainloads or, where this was not possible, in blocks of wagons so as to reduce the time spent in shunting at intermediate points. The collieries are working in close co-operation with the local railway officers and, wherever circumstances permit, coal wagons are marshalled in the colliery sidings so that the minimum of shunting is required en route. To improve organization, the districts in the West Midlands have been grouped under the officers responsible for coal supplies and railway operation on the lines of the organization in the Midlands (Amalgamated) District, and a Coordinating Coal Supplies Officer has been appointed in this area to work in close co-operation with the chief railway officials to obtain all improvements possible in rail transport.

Road transport plays a limited but nevertheless important part in coal distribution and the policy of the Department, in agreement with the Ministry of War Transport, is to make the utmost use of road transport for the conveyance of coal, particularly to relieve the railways on short hauls and so free railway wagons for more distant deliveries. Emergency plans have been prepared for the large-scale use of road transport in certain areas if normal supplies by rail or by sea are substantially interrupted by enemy air attack. The fullest use of canals for the transport of coal is clearly desirable to relieve the strain on other methods of transport. Since the autumn of last year the Department has been actively engaged in seeking to increase the volume of coal traffic carried by inland waterways. A considerable expansion in the tonnage of coal carried by this method of transport has taken place during the last six months, although various difficulties have been met with, several of them of a general nature affecting the canals and the supply of boats.

I now turn to another point raised by my noble friend and that is the question of export. As he said, my right honourable friend the President of the Board of Trade stated in another place, on August 5, that We shall not export a single ton of coal which can be used in this country unless under the pressure of overwhelming national considerations. That effect has been given to the policy then announced is evident from the fact that the tonnage of coal exported as cargo or shipped as bunkers on foreign going ships in August was 25 per cent. below the corresponding tonnage in July. Wherever possible only coal which cannot be readily used in this country is allowed to be exported. It must, however, be remembered that coal is more valuable than money to some of the countries from which we draw supplies of goods and materials essential to our war effort, and it is sometimes necessary for us to pay in kind for those supplies. The export of coal is rigidly controlled and not a single cargo of coal of use to this country will be exported without most careful consideration of the circumstances.

Finally, I would say to the noble Earl and to your Lordships that His Majesty's Government are fully aware of the overwhelming importance of this very serious question. I read a little time ago—I think it was on one of those porridge bowls or mugs on which various mottoes are displayed for our instruction and amusement—these words: "A hungry man is an angry man." I do not know whether that is true but we all know that a cold or chilly man is a miserable man. If the population of this country are cold and miserable, not only will that affect their morale, but they will not be able to carry out the work which is essential for the supply of munitions and to carry on the war. I can assure the noble Earl and your Lordships that it will be the object of my honourable friend the Minister and of His Majesty's Government so to order the distribution and production of coal during the winter that not only will the industrial effort be kept going but our population will be kept reasonably warm and contented, because unless they are it is obvious that, however hard our Armies and Fleets may fight, we shall not, within a reasonable time, win that overwhelming victory which we are determined to achieve.

THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY

My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord for the statement which he has made to-day in answer to the speech of the noble Earl who sits on the Front Bench opposite. I think that we should be grateful to him both for his speech to-day, and for the manner in which he met points which we desire to represent to the Government. We are all aware that those who are responsible for the direction of our war effort have to consider all these matters perspectively, and they are the only people who can take a comprehensive view. Therefore, when we take part in these debates we try to put forward a point of view from our own corner, and see if we can assist the Government in that comprehensive outlook which they must take to ensure a co-ordinated effort for the purpose of winning the war.

The coal industry, I suppose, is one of the most important items of our war effort. I am not prepared to say exactly where it comes, but it is of the highest importance that the man-power required for the coal industry should be contemplated on a well-thought-out policy in conjunction with all those interests which require man-power in the different efforts devoted to winning the war. I feel, somehow, that perhaps the Government have not properly considered—though I know they have had every opportunity of doing | so, and I am sure they have done their best—on a businesslike footing, the manner of returning men to the coal pits. Your Lordships are aware that before the war an appeal was made to the collieries to furnish as many men as they could for the Territorial battalions. Those men have been called up and the shortage in the industry is due to the fact that they are now in the Army. The noble Lord has told us that after the collapse of France, when the supply of coal was naturally curtailed, a larger number of men were drafted into the Army. He has explained to us that once they have been for some considerable time in the Army there are difficulties in removing them from the positions they occupy, because, in these days, so many skilled men are required for the maintenance of the Army. He has also explained that pit-men come into the category of "skilled men" more than a great many sections of the community. At the present moment there is difficulty about men being returned to the pits.

The noble Lord quoted some figures, and I have seen some, coming from the Labour Ministry, in the newspapers, indicating that a large number of men have been returned to the pits. This has satisfied a large portion of the population that everything is being done on the right lines for the purpose of supplying man-power to the pits. I would say, however, that a large proportion of these men are entirely unsuitable. The men required for the mines are the men who can work at the face and can work below ground. The men who have been returned, to a very large extent, are men who are of no use whatever at the coal face, and very little use under ground. They can supply certain requirements on the surface, but naturally the number of surface men is regulated by the number of men employed at the coal face. To give your Lordships a small instance of what I mean, I may tell you that we had seventeen men sent to us the other day, and of these eight were bricklayers and the remainder were of no use as regarded coal mining. These men as soon as they reach the pit are given fourteen days' notice because it is impossible to give them employment which they can satisfactorily operate. They are given notice and are paid out of a pool contributed by colliery owners at the rate of 1½d. per ton, per month, under the Essential Works (Mining) Order, 1941. It seems to me an unfortunate proceeding that for the purpose of giving figures to show that men are being returned to the mines these unsuitable men are sent. I am wondering whether the Government cannot go more closely into this matter, and find out whether it is not possible to release men who can work under ground and can get out this further supply of coal which I think, and the noble Lord has told us, is vitally necessary.

I would now come to the question of absenteeism. I have already contributed a letter to the Press in relation to absenteeism. I did feel that the proportion of absenteeism occurring was not due to lack of patriotism on the part of the miners, but that they really were not able to get the food which would enable them to continue in hard work for so many shifts throughout the week. I think that explanation was a reasonable one for a great deal of the absenteeism, but I am sorry to say that I have had to modify the view which I took then. Your Lordships are aware of the arrangement of the bonus. It was given on a scale which I do not want to criticise, but it has been given up now. A man forfeited the whole of his bonus if he did not perform a certain number of shifts a week. That bonus has now been added to the pay of the miner. None of us wish to grudge him his pay. But I think you will find that with the increase in pay the age-long custom applies. That is to say that with the increase in pay the supply of coal diminishes. That has always happened in peace-time. As the men earn better money so does the output go down. I think your Lordships are aware that the pit-man is not a capitalist in any sense of the word. He desires to earn good money; he gives so much to his wife, and retains a certain portion for his own pocket. But when he has worked hard enough to give him the weekly sum which he thinks that he requires, he is inclined to go easy, and this, in my view, is responsible for a certain amount of absenteeism.

I can give you the figures for Saturday last, when there was a reduction of 19 per cent. in the case of the putters and of 14 per cent. in the case of the hewers, with a consequent reduction of output. It is not easy for the owners to appeal to the men to increase their output, because it can be said that they have an interested motive; although, with taxation as it exists at present and with the Excess Profits Duty, there is very little left for the owner to put in his pocket. I do think, however, that the leaders of the men could make a special appeal, which would have more power than would an appeal from the owners. Perhaps a further appeal to the miners is really necessary to put the case before them and show them that so much depends upon them in this vital war effort. On the question of hours, personally I am against any increase in hours: I think that the hours which the miners work now are quite long enough. When hours are increased beyond a certain number, and when an increased number of shifts is worked, we do not get the best work. There is a certain quota of time which I think produces the best output. A great deal depends upon regularity.

Reference has been made to canteens. I am sure that the development of the canteen system is an improvement which should have happened long ago. It has taken a world-wide war to produce this improvement in the coal-mining industry, and for that fact we must all take a certain amount of blame. I am glad to find that the canteen system has certainly caught on. In the few places which I have seen, the men were very satisfied and considered the food supplied to be very good indeed. I spoke to individual miners, and they were quite satisfied with the food which they were receiving. The system should be extended. The men's leaders are considering it very carefully, and I know that they will give us all the assistance in that direction which we require.

With regard to the actual supply of coal, I understood the noble Lord to say that the large undertakings are fairly well satisfied, but that some gas undertakings are short. It seems to me that it is primarily a question of transport, and I should have thought that that could be easily arranged. The other branch of the supply of coal, to which the noble Lord also referred, is the supply of domestic coal, which is of considerable importance from the psychological point of view. I would urge the Government to do what they can to assist the distributors, or perhaps I should say to organize the distributors, so that household coal may be supplied. There are difficulties. I believe that in times of peace many local distributors had no storage room and kept the coal in the trucks in the railway yards. Now that all the trucks are required, that storage room is no longer available, and therefore some assistance might he given to the distributors. I do not profess to know very much about the distribution of coal, because after it has left the pit-head it does not come within our jurisdiction.

There is another matter which I think requires consideration and that is the price of coal. There is always a tremendous difference between the pit-head price and the price of the coal to the domestic consumer, and it has always been difficult to find out exactly where that great difference goes. The price of coal is going up and up, and I wonder whether there is a reason for that. We should like to see the Government exercise more control, and more drastic control, in these matters. There is a fatal spiral which is carrying us inevitably towards inflation, and one factor there is naturally the increasing price of coal. I do not know whether the Government can turn their minds to that.

I would urge the Government to consider the question of returning men from the Army to the pits. The best of our hewers are in the Army; they joined the Territorials. I feel that in this great war effort a further attempt might be made to deal with the position. We need a coordinated effort. I would suggest that some of the battalions which are composed almost entirely of miners might be located in the mining districts for the time being, so that the men during that time might work at the coal face. I hope that the Government will be able to consider this matter. We all want to help, and, while we may put our own points of view, we put them forward with the knowledge that the Government know a great deal more than we do. Our one desire is to assist them.

LORD MOTTISTONE

My Lords, I have been asked to say a word from these Benches in appreciation of the speech of the noble Earl who raised this most important question and, I would add, of the speech made by the noble Lord, Lord Templemore, on behalf of the Government, and especially of his peroration, which showed that he was whole-heartedly in favour of increasing the supply of coal. I hope that this peroration represents the view of all the members of the Government, and, if it does not, that he will impress it upon them. In the few sentences with which I shall delay your Lordships, I would call attention to the manifest fact that we are confronted with a shortage of coal here in this country, which is almost unbelievable when we consider what the position is. The late Master of Trinity, Sir J. J. Thomson, perhaps the greatest brain of our generation, pointed out to me that the wealth of Britain was far greater than that of any other country in the world, because our workable coal measures represent a value to our citizens far greater than that of all the oil, all the rubies, or all the diamonds of any other country in the world. No doubt that is perfectly true. The fact that there is more energy in a pound of coal than in a pound of dynamite—a fact which most people do not realize—shows what a marvellous material this is with which we have been blessed.

Apart from that, I have learnt from what I have heard at international conferences on coalmining, that in this country we have the best hewers, the best workmen and the best management of any nation in the world. We have the best coal and the best miners, therefore, and yet we are confronted with a shortage. There must be something wrong. The noble Marquess, Lord Londonderry, who speaks with an expert knowledge which I cannot claim, put his finger on the spot when he said that the hewers are serving in the Army. I have no wish to exaggerate, but to put a hewer who is willing to hew coal in this war to serve in the Army, or for the War Office to hold him there, can hardly be described as other than lunacy. Hewing is almost the most expert job that a man can do. It is not so superlatively skilled when the electric drill is used, but even then it is highly skilled. The under-cutting work which has to be done is very difficult.

Some of your Lordships may have represented mining constituencies, as I did, and know that it was considered the proper thing to go clown the pit and try to hew coal; and we are told by those who do know all about it that this is one of the most expert jobs that a man can do. Some people go so far as to say that it is only because generations of men have been doing the work for over a hundred years that we have such wonderful hewers. While we know that the Government arc endeavouring to hold the balance evenly, they must have forgotten the expert nature of the miners' work, and I would beg Lord Templemore to urge those in authority for whom he has spoken today, to see to it that all the hewers who are willing to go back to the pits are returned, so that at least all our war industries shall have all the coal they need and that our people's homes shall be warm this winter.

LORD NEWTON

My Lords, I think the real matter at the bottom of this difficulty is that the Government, being faced with the absolute necessity of further production, are unable to discover where the men are to be found in order to fill the gap. I would venture to make a suggestion to the Government which I think is worthy of consideration. During the last war we were faced with precisely the same difficulty. Whilst the Germans were employing our men in every kind of employment, and especially in mines, and treating them with extreme brutality, not a single war prisoner was put to any work of the kind in this country, and, when it was suggested, the Miners' Federation intimated—so I was informed by the War Office—that if a single German were put in the pits under ground they would start a general strike. All this seems to me—and I had a good deal to do with these questions in the last war—to suggest that we have been extraordinarily short-sighted in not making more use of prisoners of war and aliens generally. We have at this moment thousands and thousands of Italian prisoners and there are large numbers of enemy civilians in this country who are doing nothing whatever. I would like to ask the noble Lord who is going to make an additional statement for the Government whether it would not be possible to make use of these men. I may be told that it is only skilled men who are required, but I do not think that that would be correct. It is obvious that you do not want skilled labour only; you want unskilled labour as well, and what I have suggested seems to me the simplest means of procuring it.

I do not profess to be an expert on this question, but the unwisdom of the prejudice against employing prisoner labour during the last war made a very big impression upon me. It really is time that we should treat this question with more intelligence. I am aware from experience that Government Departments and permanent officials quite naturally resent suggestions made to them in Parliament. For sound reasons they generally oppose any legislation which is proposed from outside; but it does occasionally happen that outsiders show rather more intelligence than the professional servants of the Government, and I cannot help thinking that this is one of the occasions when a suggestion of this kind might be studied with some advantage. I hope, therefore, that the noble Lord who is going to reply for the Government will assure me that this particular suggestion has been already considered, and, if it has not been considered,"that the Government will undertake to consider it now.

THE EARL OF MUNSTER

My Lords, as one who represented the Mines Department in your Lordships' House for some years I hope it will not be thought impertinent of me if I address a few remarks to the House, and also ask my noble friend Lord Snell to reply to some questions which have already been touched upon by my noble friend Lord Temple-more. During the days that I have just referred to it fell to my lot to present to your Lordships from time to time Orders setting up and authorizing the establishment of selling schemes in colliery districts. Those selling schemes had one object in view—namely, to keep down production and maintain costs. As a result of those schemes there was a considerable drifting away from the pits in all parts of the country, and the miner who had left his pit was seeking employment in other industries. It is true to say that in the last war there were 500,000 more miners working in the coal industry than there are to-day, and since the time when I represented the Mines Department in this House there has been a considerable further reduction in the number employed. Naturally, to produce coal labour must be obtained.

My first request to my noble friend is to ask him whether he can elucidate a little further the matter of the lack of workers in the industry. It is quite true that after the collapse of France the miners employed exclusively in the production of coal for export were put out of work, and either were absorbed by other industries or went into the Armed Forces. It was in July this year that a registration order was made under which all those who had been engaged in the colliery industry for a period of some years were asked to re-register. I am told that the figure of 105,000 was obtained, of which 25,000 odd expressed their willingness to return to the industry. I have heard disquieting rumours from two or three sources that a considerable percentage of these men have been unable, owing to physical disabilities, to obtain a medical certificate. If that is so, the question arises of what action the Government propose to take to obtain further labour for this very urgent purpose.

I should like to touch on another question—namely, food rationing for miners. I was glad to hear Lord Temple-more say it was not the intention of the Government to issue extra rations to miners in their own houses. Even if such a scheme were workable I can foresee grave difficulties arising from many other industries. But I should like to know, if the figures can be divulged, how many of these canteens have been provided, and what is the percentage of the miners employed to-day who have already been supplied with these canteens where extra rations can be obtained.

LORD TEMPLEMORE

I did tell my noble friend the number. Three hundred and seventy-five canteens have been provided, and four hundred will shortly be provided and when the scheme is in full operation it will cover 85 per cent. of the mining industry.

THE EARL OF MUNSTER

I am much obliged to my noble friend, but what I desired to know was the number of miners employed in the mines where canteens have been provided; but if it is not possible to give that figure I do not press it. Another question which has disturbed the minds of many people is with regard to the number of deaths due to mine accidents. It was some years ago that the late Lord Rockley was appointed Chairman of a Royal Commission to inquire into the question of safety in mines. That Commission submitted a long Report which I believe, but for the war, would have been the subject of further legislation. I wonder whether it would be possible to say if it is practicable to extract some of the recommendations from that report and put them into effect forthwith.

My final remark relates to the question touched upon by my noble friend Lord Londonderry—namely, the price of coal to the industrial consumer. It was only this morning that I ascertained from coal distributors near London that they purchased coal in the North of England at a pit-head price of 26s. a ton. By the time this coal had reached rail head about thirty miles due south of London the price had increased to 52s. 11d. They naturally add more on to this to meet their own costs and overhead charges. The heavy price of coal to-day is falling very severely on the poorer classes of the people, in spite of the fact that I understand that there is an Exchequer subsidy for disparities arising from existing transport rates and that domestic fuel is controlled in accordance with the Retail Prices Control Order. I do not know whether my noble friend Lord Snell could elucidate still further some of these questions which I have seen fit to address to him.

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH

My Lords, the object of the debate, as I conceive it, is to help the Government in the national war effort and to fortify them in taking whatever measures may be necessary as far as the coal industry is concerned. If I may say so, the speech of the noble Earl opposite (Lord Listowel) was extraordinarily well directed to that end. Previous speakers have already expressed appreciation of the noble Earl's remarks, and I should like to add my tribute. In order to be of the greatest possible assistance to the Government, it is no use avoiding reference to the thorny subjects. There are two thorny subjects not referred to either by the noble Earl opposite or the noble Lord who replied for the Government. I was, therefore, all the more glad to hear the noble Marquess, Lord Londonderry, refer sympathetically to the very difficult question of absenteeism. We have been told that the main reason for the shortage of coal is the lack of skilled men in the pits. That, of course, is true, but there is no doubt that a contributory cause-no doubt of much less importance, but still of importance—is excessive absenteeism at the present time Nothing could be less justifiable than for an outsider to the coal trade, as I am, to try and diagnose the causes of this absenteeism. I was very interested to hear the noble Marquess say that it was due to the age-old custom in the coal-mining industry that, when a man has earned sufficient for his needs, the incentive is so much diminished that he does not earn any more.

The only reference that I wish to make to this subject is to point out what an extraordinarily good opportunity that gives for an appeal to the miner to increase his savings. In the matter of savings, I believe a great deal is being done at many of the pits, but there is such an obvious optimum combination of more work resulting in more savings, that that is a suggestion which ought to be brought to the notice of all concerned. I have lived all my life in a coal-mining district, and I do not think it is necessary to say to your Lordships that everybody knows the coal miner is no less patriotic or hard working than any other section of the community. I feel absolutely convinced that it only needs the facts of the situation to be brought to the notice of the miners for output to be substantially increased. The fact that there is absenteeism is index and proof that there is not yet sufficient realization of the gravity of the national situation. That ought to be brought home, as indeed the noble Marquess suggested, by some means or other to all sections of the coal trade.

There is another rather thorny subject which was not mentioned by Lord Templemore, and that is the question of distribution, more particularly by the small distributors. The noble Marquess mentioned that before the war the small distributor frequently distributed from a coal truck standing in a siding. The reorganization of rolling stock has resulted in the recall of these trucks and in a great improvement in the transport system of the railways as a whole, but it has put the small distributors in a very great difficulty. The thorny question to which I refer lies in the encouragement, or indeed the compulsion, of the small distributors to get together. An individual small distributor in the country district has not the capital to store coal and distribute it. Rationing will not help the consumer one little bit if the coal is at a dump twenty miles away from his grate. The consumer wants his coal in his grate, and to get that it does look as if some compulsion will have to be applied—or let us say encouragement—to the small distributors to get together and co-operate amongst themselves to provide the capital and find storage room.

These are the two practical suggestions I wish to make, and I would sum up the matter in this way. It really does come to a question of the application of manpower. We know that there is going to be a shortage of domestic coal. I have already had the painful experience of not being able to get coal to heat the working-class flats belonging to the housing trust in which I am interested in London. Ever since the middle of the summer, since July, we have not been able to get the fuel. I know the reason. It is because it is fuel that goes through mechanical stokers, and it is of a kind largely needed for munition work, but it does point to a failure of organization that coal should not be available for domestic purposes even during summer. There is going to be hardship. Two things are needed. The miners have got to be made to understand the national need, and the general public have got to be convinced that the Government are doing everything in their power and really thinking out the distribution of the skilled labour which is available. The public are not convinced of that, and it would be very helpful if the Deputy Leader of the House, who is to reply, can tell us who it is that is considering from the broadest national aspect this question of distribution of skilled labour, including that of the hewers of coal. We do want to feel that the available skilled labour force of this country is being applied to the points where it is most needed, be it production of tanks, or production of aeroplanes, or production of coal. If we can really feel that labour is being properly used and distributed, no one will mind being a little bit cold during winter. Unless people can feel that, discontent is inevitable and justifiable.

VISCOUNT BLEDISLOE

My Lords, I had not intended to participate in this debate, but, after what has fallen from my noble friend Lord Balfour of Burleigh, I am bound to say that, having lived all my life in a colliery area, it is a very remarkable fact that since we undertook on two occasions a war savings campaign, not only has the industry of the coal-getter materially improved, but there has been a very remarkable contribution to war savings on the part of a community which consists almost entirely of coal miners. Therefore I feel very strongly that if it were possible in every coal area to appeal not only to the admitted patriotism of the collier, but also to his public spirit and his material advantage in investing the surplus over and above his essential requirements in war savings, certificates or otherwise, to a large extent the difficulty might be met.

LORD SNELL

My Lords, there is no reason why I should delay your Lordships for long in the remarks that I have to make, for a good many of the criticisms which have been made were answered in fact in Lord Templemore's comprehensive speech at an earlier part of the debate, as will be gathered from the printed report of that speech. I should, however, like to say that in the judgment of His Majesty's Government the debate which has taken place on this very important subject has been one of great usefulness and we are all indebted to my noble friend Lord Listowel for introducing it in so comprehensive and lucid a way. I can promise both those who have criticised and those who have made suggestions that my honourable friend the Minister for Mines will study very carefully this debate and give immediate consideration to the criticisms and suggestions that have been made.

I venture to say that the subject we have been discussing is the rightful concern and even the anxiety of everybody responsible for government in this country. An English winter without warmth is not a pleasant prospect for any of us; but, my Lords, there is no justification for undue depression in this matter. We may have to endure economies, but I am not convinced that we shall have to endure real, or at any rate, prolonged hardship. The criticisms that have been made have tended to centre round the one point that there should be a more rapid enrolment of ex-miners for the purpose of increasing production of coal. That has been spoken of not only by my noble friend Lord Listowel but by the noble Marquess, Lord Londonderry, who speaks on this question with an authority which most of us do not have and whose remarks on such a matter we should weigh with very great care. We would all like a more rapid enrolment of ex-miners for the purpose of hewing coal, but to state the problem is not to solve it. The actual working of things is not so easy as all that.

The noble Marquess complains that the problem of getting skilled men to return to the coal-fields is not being considered in a businesslike way. The released men, the noble Marquess tells us, are not suitable, they are not always skilled workers who can go to the coal face, and production suffers. That raises a very difficult question as to how men can be got. The suggestion in these criticisms and criticisms made outside on this matter are not always valid, and I am afraid they are not always fair. The military authorities, for example, it is said, were unable to see more than the uniformed man-power side of the problem of war and of national defence, and that, while they desire trains to carry troops and supplies to wherever they were needed in the shortest possible time, they were unwilling to free men to hew coal without which the trains could not run, while the munition factories would, without coal, have to stop. I will not attempt to try to assess the amount of justice there is in criticisms of that kind, but even if they were sustained by careful examination of the facts they would not, as a matter of fact, prove that the military authorities had a prejudice in this matter which is unknown in other activities. Which, for instance, of your Lordships who is or has been a member of a local authority, and has had to deal with committees, has not felt and insisted that the committee upon which he may happen to sit was the most important in the whole concern, and was quite unwilling to make due allowance for other parts of the enterprise?

We must remember, when we are expressing impatience in this matter, the very grave responsibility falling upon military leaders in this country at the present time. It is natural for them, I suggest, to look very jealously at the parting with men if they think that is going to injure the defence of the country. The ultimate responsibility is therefore with the Government and it is the Government that will have to deal with it. I would only just like to say in reply to the question put to me by the noble Lord, Lord Newton, that the employment of prisoners of war is not a matter for the Mines Department. It is not an economic matter wholly; it is partly a political matter; and though it is true that many prisoners of war could be used in methods of transport, such as unloading and so on, it is also true that there would be only a comparatively few who would be able to assist directly in the work of coal production. But again I suggest that the Government will notice this suggestion and, if possible, do something about it. It must, however, be remembered that the number of prisoners of war who are in this country and suitable for this technical and dangerous work must in any case be very small.

I think that is all I need say except that I may refer to the question of absenteeism which was spoken about by the noble Marquess, Lord Londonderry, and Lord Balfour of Burleigh. There is, in all probability, some absenteeism, but it is not always wilful absenteeism. Even miners get ill and become unfit to do their work, and there is a fatigue limit in steel and iron, and a fatigue limit in human beings, and you might compel people who have reached the fatigue limit to appear at the coal face without greatly increasing the output of coal. There is such a thing as the law of diminishing returns operating in circumstances of this kind.

Again I say that this debate has served a great purpose. It will have served the purpose of assuring the miners that they represent an indispensable factor in the great war effort that we are making and it will assure the public, I believe, that as far as it is possible the needs of the industry on the one hand and the comfort of the home on the other hand will be watched with care and we hope with increasing success by the Government. Let me say in conclusion that coal has been one of the main sources of British power and well-being in the past, but coal never had a more fateful and urgent part to play than it has at the present time. The industry is served by men of proved loyalty, of great skill and of powers of endurance. Everyone who knows the British miner and knows what his temper is at the present time will need no assurance that he will give to the very utmost of his power.

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH

Will the noble Lord forgive me if I remind him that he has not replied to the question I asked as to whether there is any specific machinery which the Government use to consider the distribution of skilled men between the Armed Forces and the coal mines?

LORD SNELL

I beg the noble Lord's pardon. I was trying to make my remarks shorter than perhaps I should have done. That is a matter with which the Mines Department cannot, of itself, deal. It is a matter for the War Cabinet and they alone can face that. I have no information as to what their view is, but the matter will be referred to them for their consideration.

THE EARL OF LISTOWEL

My Lords, we have had a long and interesting debate which has elicited many weighty expressions of opinion and has touched on all the major aspects of the coal question. I was particularly grateful to hear my noble friend Lord Snell say that the debate had proved useful to the Government and that they would give it their fullest consideration. I should like to thank my noble friend Lord Templemore for his extremely full and enlightening reply to my remarks. Many of the speeches, I should like to emphasize, have dwelt on the problem of man-power, and there has been general alarm lest the Government may be committing an error of judgment in their assessment of the relative requirements of the industry and the Forces. I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.

Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.