Lords Sitting of 7 May 1941

Preamble
The House met, THE LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
EAST WORCESTERSHIRE WATER BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a
SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932:

  BOROUGH OF FALMOUTH ORDER.
  LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend the Duke of Devonshire, I beg to move that the Order standing in his name be approved.
  Moved, That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department under the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, and laid before the House yesterday, be approved.—(Lord Templemore.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

JUSTICES (SUPPLEMENTAL LIST) BILL [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
The LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT SIMON): My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill. In making this Motion I would like to inform your Lordships that I desire to make two small Amendments in the Bill. One of these Amendments is on the Paper and the other has been pointed out to me. The second Amendment is purely a matter of form which I shall be able to explain. I hope that the House will agree to go into Committee.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[The EARL OF ONSLOW in the Chair.]
Clause 1:
Establishment of supplemental list and limitation of powers and duties of justices entered thereon.
(2) A justice of the peace whose name is for the time being entered in the supplemental list kept in connection with any commission of the peace shall not be qualified to sit as a member of any Court of Quarter Sessions or court of summary jurisdiction or as a licensing justice or as a member of any confirming authority or compensation authority under the Licensing (Consolidation) Act, 1910.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to add to subsection (2):
"Provided that a justice whose name is so entered shall not be disqualified from taking part in any business of a Court of Quarter Sessions relating only to the appointment of committees or other like administrative matters, or from sitting as a member of such a Court while such business is being transacted."
The noble and learned Viscount said: In moving this Amendment I desire to say a few words as to why I thought it would be wise to insert it. If your Lordships will look at subsection (2) of Clause 1 of the Bill you will see that is a subsection which, in the case of justices who go on the supplemental list, provides that they shall not be qualified to sit as members of any Court of Quarter Sessions and so on. That means that they would continue their administrative work, but would cease to sit in court. It has been pointed out to me by a Chairman of Quarter Sessions, however, that the subsection might give rise to the view that there were some justices who could not attend at Quarter Sessions for what is, I think, often called private business; that is, for the administrative business which it is found can be transacted conveniently at the time of Quarter Sessions. Committees, for example, are appointed at such times, and other administrative work is done. It was not the intention that justices should be prevented from taking part in this work.
While I think that the Bill as printed may very likely not have that effect, I would wish to remove any doubt which might possibly arise. We certainly do not wish to deprive anyone of the opportunity of doing administrative work for a county which he is able to do by
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virtue of his being a justice of the peace. I, therefore, desire to make this Amendment, the words of which I will read:
"Provided that a justice whose name is so entered shall not be disqualified from taking part in any business of a Court of Quarter Sessions relating only to the appointment of committees or other like administrative matters, or from sitting as a member of such a Court while such business is being transacted."
I hope your Lordships will agree that it is wise to add these words for purposes of clearness.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 17, insert the said proviso.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, after subsection (3) to insert:
"(4) The rules made under this Act may provide that if, with respect to any commission of the peace, it appears to the Lord Chancellor that those of the justices named therein who are to be subject to the disqualifications specified in subsection (2) of this section can be more conveniently designated in some manner other than the entry of their names in the supplemental list, they may be designated in such other manner as may be prescribed by the rules, and, where such provision is made, the rules shall provide for the application of this Act, with the necessary adaptations, to the designation of such justices, and to justices so designated, in like manner in all respects as it applies to the entry of the names of justices in supplemental lists, and to justices whose names are entered in such lists."
The noble and learned Viscount said: It has been brought to my notice that in the County of London the methods by which the purposes of the supplemental list have in substance been achieved are rather different from those which are followed in the rest of the country. In the County of London the names of the justices are drawn up in such a way as to make this distinction, but there is not really a supplemental list. So far as I may, therefore, I wish to make provision for maintaining the distinction which the County of London has, after very care-full consideration, desired to make in its practice. I know that a great deal of trouble has been taken by the justices of the County of London about this matter, and it would obviously be very unfortunate if in this Bill we were to disturb their practice more than is necessary. It is necessary that they should adopt a plan

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which would effectively secure the purposes of the Bill, but I do not see any reason for insisting that they should use precisely the same method as is used elsewhere, and a method to which they are not accustomed. I therefore wish to provide that if it appears that those of the justices named in any commission of the peace who are to be subject to the disqualifications specified can be more conveniently designated in some manner other than the entering of their names in the supplemental list, the particular authority may act accordingly. This is really a measure of relief for the County of London, in view of the fact that they have worked out a system of their own which is rather different from the normal system but is one which, with certain adjustments, will, I think, serve the purpose which I have in mind perfectly well.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 24, at end insert the said subsection.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
LORD JESSEL: As a member of the Advisory Committee for London, and as one who is well acquainted with their methods, [beg to thank the noble and learned Lord Chancellor for moving this Amendment. It is quite true, as he has informed your Lordships, that we have considered this matter over a good many years and. if I may venture to say so, I think that we have been in the forefront in the matter of getting magistrates to retire when they axe deaf, or otherwise unable to carry out their duties in the ordinary way. It has been the practice in London to put all the magistrates on one list, but, in the case of those who are actively employed, the number of the petty sessional division is placed after their name, and in the second part of our book you can see to which petty sessional division a magistrate belongs. The method is quite simple; it leaves no nasty taste in anybody's mouth, and the result has been most satisfactory. There is no question of a black list about it. I am very glad that the noble and learned Lord Chancellor proposes to allow this practice to remain undisturbed, because a great deal of time has been given to the subject, particularly
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by Sir William Collins, who was Vice-Lieutenant of London, and his Committee. At the same time, I must thank the noble and learned Lord Chancellor for proposing the previous Amendment, because some of us were in doubt as to whether a man who was on the supplemental list could go to Quarter Sessions and sit there on the bench. I heartily support this Amendment.
LORD COTTESLOE: There are many who are responsible for, or concerned with, Advisory Committees, as Lord-Lieutenants or as members, who will welcome this Amendment. We need elasticity in these matters. An Englishman will go a long way to save people's feelings, and in that matter questions of nomenclature "are very important. I am glad that this Amendment has been moved, because it is one of those things which will help to grease the machinery. It is difficult to make restrictions where work is being done gratuitously and out of public spirit. I am very glad, therefore, to welcome the Bill and the Amendment.
LORD ROCHE: As the Chairman of a Quarter Sessions and as a member of an Advisory Committee, perhaps I may be allowed to adopt the course so rightly taken by my two noble friends who have just spoken and thank the Government for this Bill and for the two Amendments. This will ease the path of those who have to secure a reasonable reduction in the number of magistrates who become very elderly, and it will also make the administrative part of the work very much easier. Many people are affected by the first Amendment in particular, many justices who have done invaluable work for the country and who are very good in counsel, but who are not so effective on the bench. For those reasons I beg to add my thanks to those of my noble friends to the Government for this Bill and the Amendments.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
House adjourned.