§ Amendments reported (according to Order).
§ Clause 3:
§ Nature and amount of payments.
§ (3) In this Part of this Act the expression "proper cost" means in relation to any works, such cost as is reasonable, having regard to the prices of materials and rates of remuneration for services current when the works are executed and to all other relevant circumstances and in computing the proper cost of any works the cost of the necessary employment of an architect, engineer, surveyor, land agent, or other person in an advisory or supervisory capacity, in connection with the; execution of the works shall be treated as part of the cost of the works.
§ THE EARL OF LISTOWELMy Lords, in the absence of my noble friend Lord Balfour of Burleigh, I should like to move the first Amendment, which is in his name, on the Order Paper [in subsection (3), before "engineer," to insert "chartered"]. I must say at once that I am 810 not myself certain of the merits and demerits of this Amendment, but I think it ought to be moved in order that the Government may express their opinion upon it. I understand that the object of the Amendment is to protect the public against the employment of any engineers who may not be fully qualified in that capacity. The acceptance of the Amendment would necessitate the person concerned belonging to one of the authorised bodies recognised by the engineering profession. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 22, after ("architect") insert ("chartered").—(The Earl of Listowel.)
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, may I suggest to the noble Earl that the Amendment should read "before 'architect' insert 'chartered'"? I will, if I may, put it in that form.
§ THE EARL OF LISTOWELMy Lords, I differ from the noble and learned Viscount. I think the order of the words is correct as they appear upon the Paper. I wish the word "chartered" to apply to "engineers."
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORI will deal with the Amendment on that basis. I do not know what the expression "chartered engineer" means. I do not think there is such an expression known to the law. I may have been mistaken but what I thought the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Burleigh, probably meant was to confine the architects whose charges and expenses can be met to chartered architects. A chartered architect is of course a member of the Royal Institute of British Architects; but the noble Earl who has moved the Amendment is of course quite right in thinking that there are also registered architects under a recent Act, and indeed that the word architect can only be used to cover registered architects. If this Amendment refers to engineers then I must say that I think the introduction of the adjective "chartered" will not be at all appropriate, and for my own part I could not accept it. There are engineers of many kinds. If it is intended to be a qualification of the word architect I do not see any reason why a registered architect should not have his fees paid. There are institutions which include among their members many kinds of architects, and I think it 811 would be wrong to limit this to architects who are members of one particular organisation.
§ THE EARL OF LISTOWELMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble and learned Viscount for making clear what is the meaning of the Amendment, and as that is the object with which the Amendment was drafted I beg leave to withdraw it.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Clause 6:
§ Determination of questions as to works and value.
§ 6.—(1) Subject to the provisions of subsection (2) of this section, any question arising in giving effect to the provisions of the three last preceding sections shall be determined by the Commission.
§
THE LORD CHANCELLOR had given notice of two Amendments to the clause—namely, in subsection (1), to leave out the words "subsection (2)" and insert "subsections (2) and (3)" and to add the following subsection to the clause:
(3) If any person is aggrieved by a determination of the Commission of any question which is under this section to be determined by them, other than a determination from which an appeal lies under subsection (2) of this section, he may appeal there from on any question of law to the High Court.
Provision may be made by rules of court for regulating appeals under, this subsection, and those rules shall provide for limiting the time within which such an appeal may be brought, for the determination thereof in a summary manner, and for requiring notice thereof to be given to the Commission, and may provide for the hearing and determination of any such appeal by a single Judge, and the Commission shall be entitled to appear and be heard on any such appeal.
§ The noble and learned Viscount said: My Lords, I beg to move the Amendment which is in my name on the Paper. The object of this and of a somewhat similar Amendment which has to be repeated later on is to secure that questions of law which might arise in connection with a determination by the War Damage Commission may be suitably dealt with. The provision, as your Lordships see, is that a person aggrieved by such a determination may appeal on any question of law to the High Court. The proviso which follows is to enable arrangements to be made for appeals of this sort to be dealt with by a single Judge when that is desirable. There have been several cases in 812 recent years in which such a provision has been made, rather, I think, to the public advantage, because undoubtedly it is an advantage to bring a particular class of rather technical subject matter before a particular Judge who, by mere repetition, becomes familiar with what he is administering, and thereby reduces to a minimum the risk of conflicting and confusing views. I think your Lordships will agree that this is a desirable change. It is one that has been mentioned to me by at least one member of your Lordships' House, and I hope that the House will accept it.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 1 leave out ("subsection (2)") and insert 'subsections (2) and (3)")—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On question, Amendment agreed it.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORI beg to move the next Amendment.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 21, at end insert the said new subsection (3).—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 39 [Land held for charitable purposes]:
§
THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to insert at the end of subsection (7):
Provided that the provisions of subsection (3) of Section six of this Act as to appeals to the High Court on questions of law shall have effect in relation to a determination of the Commission under this subsection as they have effect in relation to a determination of the Commission under that section.
§ The noble and learned Viscount said: My Lords, this Amendment relates to the appeal to the High Court on questions of law. It merely provides a similar machinery to that in a later clause. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 35, line 9, at end insert the said proviso.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 40 [Land occupied for purposes of undertaking]:
§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to delete subsection (5) in order to reinsert it after subsection (2). The noble and learned Viscount said: My Lords, I beg to move the Amendment down in my name to this clause.
813
§
Amendment moved—
Page 35, line 43, leave out subsection (5) and insert the said subsection at the end of line 22 after subsection (2).—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 42 [Air-raid shelters]:
§
THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to insert at the end of subsection (4):
Provided that the provisions of subsection (3) of Section six of this Act as to appeals to the High Court on questions of law shall have effect in relation to a determination of the Commission under this subsection as they have effect in relation to a determination of the Commission under that section.
§ The noble and learned Viscount said: My Lords, this is a repetition of exactly the same scheme in connection with allowing recourse to the Courts on questions of law. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 40, line 19, at end insert the said proviso.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 50:
§ Liabilities to repair chancels, etc., not to extend to war damage.
§ 50.—(1) A liability to which this section applies to repair a chancel of a church or other ecclesiastical building shall not extend to any repairs required for making good war damage.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, as the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of London is not here for the moment, I think I ought to move myself the Amendments he has put down to this clause. This is a very small point of interpretation. Clause 50 of the Bill as it stands was not quite clear to me, and I doubt if it was clear to the right reverend Prelate. Subsection (1) refers to the "liability to which this section applies to repair a chancel of a church or other ecclesiastical building." I think that might mean "chancel of another ecclesiastical building." That is not the intention. The intention was not that it should be a liability either to repair the chancel of a church or to repair the chancel of another ecclesiastical building. As the right reverend Prelate explained, the sort of case that was in mind was, for example, a particular aisle in a church, or it might be a private chapel, or something of that kind. I think, therefore, that the Amendments on the Paper should be made, but I venture to think that 814 there should be one further small grammatical Amendment, because strictly speaking, if we are to consider the repair of an aisle I doubt whether that would be repair of an ecclesiastical building. It would be a repair of a portion of it. I may have that indulgence I would move that further Amendment.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORThen I will formally move the first Amendment.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 47, line 2, after ("or") insert ("to repair any").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 47, line 2, after ("building") insert ("or any part thereof").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 47, line 4, after ("or") insert ("to any").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 47, line 2, after ("or") insert ("to any").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 59 [Insurance schemes]:
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, there arc two drafting Amendments on this clause. I beg to move.
§ Amendments moved—
§ Page 51, line 27, leave out ("in the United Kingdom").
§ Page 51, line 34, leave out ("as aforesaid").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On Question Amendments agreed to.
§ Clause 60 [Goods insurable under the schemes]:
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, there are two Amendments to this clause which make a purely formal change. I beg to move.
§ Amendments moved—
§ Page 53, line 2, leave out paragraph (a).
§ Page 53, line 11, leave, out ("paragraph (b) of").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On Question, Amendments agreed to.
§ Clause 81:
§ Avoidance of duplication of payments in respect of war damage.
§ (2) Where war damage occurs to land or goods, and at the time when, apart from the provisions of this subsection, any payment (whether with or without interest) would be made to any person in respect thereof under Part I of this Act or under a policy issued under either of the schemes operated under Part II thereof, that person or any other person—
- (a) has received (otherwise than by way of loan) in respect of the damage any sum paid on behalf of His Majesty, not being a sum paid by virtue of the Compensation (Defence) Act, 1939, or of this Act; or
- (b) is entitled to receive (otherwise than by way of loan) in respect of the damage any sum payable on behalf of His Majesty, not being a sum payable by virtue of either of the said Acts,
§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, in paragraph (a) of subsection (2), after "His Majesty," to insert "or by a civil defence authority acting as such." The noble and learned Viscount said: My Lords, it is desirable to add to this clause the phrase "or by a civil defence authority" because otherwise it might be doubtful whether the cases were completely covered. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 68, line 10, after ("His Majesty") insert ("or by a civil defence authority acting as such").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, I bee to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 68, line 15, after ("His Majesty") insert ("or by a civil defence authority acting as such").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, I beg to move.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 68, line 31, at end insert—
("In this subsection the expression 'civil defence authority' means a local authority on whom functions have been conferred or imposed by or under the Civil Defence Acts, 1937 and 1939.")—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 87:
§
Provision as to certain mutual insurance schemes.
87.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this section, no person shall, after such date as may be prescribed by order of the Board of Trade, take part in the promoting or carrying on of any business or scheme whereby persons are, or may become, entitled or eligible, either absolutely or conditionally, to or for any form of indemnification, whether total or partial, and whether by way of a money payment or not, in respect of war damage to land or to goods which are insurable in relation to those persons respectively under Part II of the War Risks Insurance Act, 1939, or under either of the insurance schemes operated under Part II o£ this Act:
§
Provided that—
(b) the said provisions shall not apply in relation to any business or scheme which operates only so as to insure persons, in respect of goods insurable in relation to them under the private chattels scheme operated under Part II of this Act, against losses in respect of which, by reason of the provision of policies issued under that scheme limiting the indemnity provided thereunder, they are unable to recover under the scheme irrespective of the amount for which they are insured;
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, I am sorry to have to move Amendments to this clause in manuscript form, but the necessity for them was only noticed very late. The first Amendment I have to move is in subsection (1) (b), where it is proposed to leave out the words "the private chattels scheme" and to substitute the words "either of the schemes." It has been decided that a limit will be imposed on the amount recoverable under the business scheme in respect of certain classes of goods, and it is therefore desirable that paragraph (b) should extend to the business scheme as well as the private chattels scheme. It is a common thing to find in an insurance policy, and a very necessary thing in certain cases, that a limit is put to the amount that may be recoverable in respect of certain classes of goods. In the case of a picture dealer's business for instance, you might have enormous amounts of money. The purpose is to make such a limit apply in both the private chattels and business schemes.
Perhaps I should add a further word of explanation. The clause is not one which is easy to construe. It has to do with certain private mutual insurance schemes. 817 They are to stop generally speaking, but there is no reason why they should stop, and the Government have no desire to stop them, so long as they are only insuring an excess which might not be covered by the Government: scheme. There is a form of policy which is very familiar at Lloyds known as an excess policy which only begins to operate after the insurer has covered a certain amount of loss otherwise. If mutual schemes are schemes which cover business or private assets beyond the point at which the Government scheme ceases to give cover, they arc justified, and this Amendment will secure that. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 71 line 35, leave out ("the private chattels scheme") and insert ("either of the schemes")—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, there is a consequential Amendment that is necessary. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 71, line 38, leave out ("that scheme") and insert ("the scheme in question").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 90 [Restriction on disclosure of information]:
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, I think the Amendment on the Paper needs no explanation. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 73, line 28, after ("thereof") insert ("and any appeal to the Special Commissioners under Part I thereof").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 95 [interpretation]:
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, there is an Amendment to this clause giving a discretion which I think will be manifestly approved by the House. I beg to move.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 78, line 7, at end insert:
("( ) For the purposes of this Act an activity shall not be deemed to be other than a business by reason only that it is of a professional nature, or that it is not carried on for gain.")—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
818§ Clause 96 [Application to Scotland]:
§ LORD TEMPLEMOREMy Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Alness, I beg to move the Amendments which stand on the Paper in his name. The object of the first Amendment is to add to the clauses excluded from application to Scotland Clause 50. That clause, which was added to the Bill in the Committee stage on the Motion of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of London, deals with liability for the repair of chancels of churches and other ecclesiastical buildings arising under the Tithe Act, 1936, and otherwise. The clause is inapplicable to Scotland, but it is nevertheless desirable to make express provision for its exclusion as has been already done in the case of Clause 49, which confers powers on the Ecclesiastical Commissioners and Queen Anne's Bounty regarding repair of war damage to land belonging to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners.
§
Amendment moved—
Page So, line 22, after ("forty-nine") insert ("fifty").—(Lord Templemore.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD TEMPLEMOREMy Lords, the next Amendment is purely drafting.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 81, line 11, leave out from ("to") to ("were") in line 12, and insert ("occupation of land").—(Lord Templemore.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Fourth Schedule: