NATIONAL SERVICE BILL. (Hansard, 8 April 1941)

§ LORD SNELL
My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a third time.

§ THE EARL OF LISTOWEL
My Lords, there are one or two matters I venture to raise mainly for clarification and explanation on behalf of the London County Council, who of course speak with a mind both to their own difficulties when this Bill is passed into law and to the difficulties that may confront all local authorities employing Civil Defence Services. I must apologise very sincerely to my noble friend opposite for not having been able to give him due notice of these matters, but as my own attention was only drawn to them this morning, it was a physical impossibility for me to do so. The County Council very much hope that the Government will bear in mind the fact that this Bill will throw more work on the shoulders of their staff. At a time like this it is exceedingly difficult for them to recruit additional staff, and in fact, owing to the raising of the age of reservation, the number of their staffs is likely to decline in the near future. It is hoped that the Government will bear in mind the difficulties that will confront the local authorities from the point of view of administration when this extra burden is placed on their shoulders.
There are two points of less importance, but still points that deserve consideration, which I wish briefly to raise. The first relates to the conditions of service of those who will be called up for Civil Defence under this Bill. All that the County Council would wish to request of the Government is that if the conditions of service are likely to affect them disadvantageously from the point of view of their own employees at the moment, they should be informed and consulted beforehand. It was suggested in another place that consultation might cause undue delay. The County Council are not of the opinion that serious delay is entailed in a consultation between their representatives and those of the Ministry, and very much hope that on points affecting their interests very closely such talks may be held before the Government make up their mind.
The other point is also merely a request for prior consultation. In another place it was mentioned by the Minister that the Government are anxious to form some sort of national and regional reserve of personnel for civil defence. All that the London County Council wish to ask of the Government is that before any of their civil defence workers are drafted away for 1025 service in such reserve, the Council may be consulted because such a step might, in given circumstances, affect their civil defence work in a very serious manner. I apologise again to my noble friend for not having been able to give him longer notice of these points, but I know that the London County Council and local authorities, generally, would appreciate anything he could say in the matter.

LORD FARINGDON
My Lords, on the Second Reading of this Bill I mentioned the danger of reviving under this measure the process which, in the last war, came to be called the "cat-and-mouse" process. There are in this Bill certain penal provisions in Clauses 2, 4, and 5 for those who are unable to accept the Bill or who have offended against its provisions in one way or another. As your Lordships are aware, the "cat-and-mouse" process is the process by which a man who has fulfilled a sentence for an offence, on emerging from the completion of that sentence finds himself immediately re-condemned to another period of imprisonment. This is a process which was found to be highly undesirable during the last war. Such penalties seem to degenerate into persecution, and bring the administration—as at any rate some of your Lordships will agree—into disrepute. I have given the noble Lord rather slight notice that I should raise this point, but I do hope that he, on behalf of the Government, may be able to give us some kind of an assurance.

§ LORD SNELL
My Lords, the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, raised points of interest in regard to conditions of service. He will understand that I cannot claim to speak for the several Departments concerned, owing to not having had an opportunity of consulting them. But I think it would be safe for me to say that the Government will see that the local government authorities are consulted whenever the conditions affect them or their work. The same applies to the second point raised by the noble Lord. Whenever the conditions permit—and I cannot swear that the conditions will always allow of it, but it is the intention of the Government that they should—consultation with the local authorities will take place, because it is not in the interest of the Government or their desire or intention to injure at all the work of the local authorities.
1026 The problem raised by the noble Lord, Lord Faringdon, is a more difficult one for me to answer. As I understand him, he states that under the principal Act there is a provision existing dealing with the case of a man claiming to be a conscientious objector when he is in the Armed Forces who may be undergoing imprisonment and then find himself in trouble again. I believe, however, that his case can be re-heard by the Appellate Tribunal for Conscientious Objectors if he claims that his offence was committed on the grounds of conscience. That, I hope, will give some comfort to the noble Lord in the objection that he has raised. The difficulties of the position suggested by the noble Lord are of course well known, and we have no desire that they should be repeated on the present occasion. It is very much hoped that it will not be necessary to proceed over and over again against any individual, but power to do so must be there. The Government cannot, I am afraid, deny themselves the use of these powers if the individual insists on repeating over and over again what the Government think is an offence, but I hope that in actual experience it will be found that the consideration of the difficulties concerned will allow the work to proceed without any of the evils that the noble Lord deplores.