Lords Sitting of 8 April 1941

Preamble
The House met, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

OBSERVANCE OF GOOD FRIDAY.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I venture to ask your leave to put a question to the Leader of the House of which I have given him private notice. It is as follows: Whether the attention of the Government has been called to the anxiety which is felt by a large section of opinion in the country as to the suggested want of observance of Good Friday in the present week. If it be necessary in the exigencies of the war that work on munitions should not be interrupted even on that day, I would ask how far the Government desire that this change in immemorial practice should be applied not only to those working on munitions but generally throughout the country, and whether they would wish to make a further statement on the subject. There is no doubt about the immemorial practice in this country. For centuries Good Friday has been set apart as almost if not altogether the most sacred day in the year, and the practice has, I think, been universal for all that time that it should have this due respect. But I recognise, as all your Lordships do, that the exigencies at the present moment are such that these very desirable practices should be intermitted for essential war work. None of us would desire to say anything else. Indeed, in the circumstances, I am sorry somewhat that it appears in the public Press that even Monday is to be set apart for holiday-making.
But nevertheless one feels that that applies to war exigencies, to the making of munitions. I think all of your Lordships must feel that this is not a time when religious observance should be treated with disregard. Any of us who were present during the services on the Sunday of intercession must have been satisfied how true it is that the people of this country in these great circumstances naturally turn to their religion to help them. It does seem rather strange that
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as between two days—one Good Friday and one Easter Monday—the modern Easter Monday should be selected for a holiday and all the religious observances of Friday should be treated of less account. I hope the Government will not think that I am criticising them for a moment in insisting that necessary war work should be carried out even on that day, but I do venture to ask how far it is necessary that it should be extended beyond munitions work to all other employments, and I hope that the Government may be willing to make a statement on the subject. I am told that even the Stock Exchange is to be opened on Good Friday. I cannot think that the Stock Exchange is at all necessary for war exigencies, and certainly the proceedings of the Stock Exchange, though entirely respectable, are not peculiarly suitable to Good Friday. Therefore I ask the Government whether they can make a statement on the subject.
VISCOUNT FITZALAN OF DERWENT: My Lords, before my noble friend replies I should like to say that I endorse every word that has fallen from the noble Marquess.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (LORD MOYNE): My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Marquess for having raised this question. We all recognise that there is a very strong feeling of disappointment that ordinary facilities for religious worship upon Good Friday are inevitably interfered with by the decision which I think was forced upon the Government without any real alternative. But I am very glad to have this opportunity of explaining that the-Government could not possibly approve of the normal and traditional arrange merit for the Easter holidays. I think it is also very necessary that it should be made plain how far this decision applies, and that it is only intended that this advice of the Government should be applied to war service. The Government were naturally anxious to get as much interruption for the purpose of recreation and rest from the normal hard work on war production as was consistent with output and would not mean any slackening of the war effort.
It was found that both Friday and Monday could not be afforded as holidays. The noble Marquess expressed his

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regret that advice had been given to close on Monday and he would have preferred us to close on Good Friday. I think there are very good reasons on industrial grounds for the Government to have chosen Easter Monday as they could not afford both days. They have had in mind the danger of industrial fatigue. Workers in munition industries have responded to the national appeal and have been willing to undertake very long hours under very fatiguing conditions, and it is really consistent with the maintenance of output that a reasonable opportunity for a break should be afforded. We were advised that it would be much better to get the longest possible break, from midday on Saturday until the start of work on Tuesday rather than to have two breaks—namely, on Good Friday and on Sunday, with work in between them. There is besides the risk that if you stop on Good Friday and open again on Saturday just for half a day, a great many industrial workers will take the holiday from Good Friday morning till Tuesday morning.
It is not intended that all employers without exception should feel bound to keep their works open as usual on Friday. When it is quite clear that there will be no adverse effect on war production from a partial or complete stoppage on Friday there is no objection. In the case of retail shops it may be clear that in many cases partial or complete closing is the right plan, but all such shops should be kept open to the fullest extent likely to be necessary to meet the essential need of those working. With regard to the position in Scotland, Scottish banks will be closed as usual on Good Friday, but that day is not a public holiday there.
The notice issued on March 29 deals, of course, with the problem of war production; it lays emphasis on the position of war industries, which must be kept open, rather than on the non-essential industries which the noble Marquess wishes to see closed. But we have to bear in mind that the various branches of war effort are inextricably interlocked War production is very widespread nowadays and involves all kinds of ancillary services, and the needs of the workers must be supplied while the factories remain at work. For this reason the catering trade to feed them and the banks to pay them will be performing a very
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valuable service. I am glad to have the opportunity of saying that the Government do not wish industries that are not employed on war work to keep open on unnecessary work, and it may be plainly understood that it is not unpatriotic to close on Friday provided that that is not in any way going to interfere with war output. It has often been said that in this country we were too slow in getting into our stride and before the collapse of France we were too much imbued with the holiday spirit. The noble Marquess has made it plain that he does not wish to interfere in any way with war production, but this notice which has been issued has been so framed as to make it clear that we realise that war production must come first. It would have been very unfortunate if there had been any appearance that we were thinking of normal holidays when our Forces and the Forces of our Allies are fighting a critical battle in the Near East.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
LORD MOYNE: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion that stands in my name.
Moved, That Standing Order No. XXXIX be considered in order to its being suspended until the House do adjourn for the Recess.—(Lord Moyne.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

JUSTICES (SUPPLEMENTAL LIST) BILL. [H.L.]
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT SIMON): My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to provide for the establishment of supplemental lists of justices of the peace and for limiting the powers and duties of justices whose names are included in such lists; and to move that the Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

SOLICITORS BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Wright.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[THE EARL OF ONSLOW in the Chair.]
Clause 1 [Delivery of accountant's certificates to Registrar]:
LORD WRIGHT LORD WRIGHT moved to add to the clause:
"(8) Where a solicitor is employed as a public officer (as defined in subsection (2) of Section four of the Solicitors Act, 1933)—
(a) nothing in this section shall apply to him unless he takes out a practising certificate;
(b) an accountant's certificate shall in no case deal with books or accounts kept by him in the course of his employment as such public officer, nor shall any examination be made of those books and accounts under the Accountant's Certificate Rules."
The noble and learned Lord said: I beg to move an additional subsection, which will be number (8). In the words set out in the notice of Amendment the object of that Amendment is to exempt from the operation of the Bill solicitors who are public officers, and who fulfil the functions of public solicitors. The definition of "public officers" for this purpose is taken from the Act of 1933, and it means various Crown and Government solicitors whose charges are defrayed out of public funds, money provided by Parliament, Crown revenues and the funds of various public bodies. The exemption only applies to these gentlemen in their capacity of public officers. In so far as they are dealing with private practice they will be subject to the provisions of the Bill, and, of course, nothing in the clause shall apply to a public officer in any case unless he takes out a practising certificate.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 8, at end insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Wright.)
LORD MANCROFT: I support that proposal, but I am in doubt as to whether it goes far enough, or whether my noble and learned friend could not make some provision to cover, in a similar way, those solicitors solely employed, as, say for example, solicitor to a railway company, and who do no other work than the company's work. In another case a solicitor may be employed in no other capacity
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than as chairman of a bank or as solicitor to an insurance company. I should like to think that the protection which my noble and learned friend wishes to extend to certain types of solicitor should also cover those whom I have just described. Perhaps my noble and learned friend can say something on this matter.
LORD JESSEL: May I ask whether what has been said also applies to solicitors employed as town clerks, and who do nothing else?
LORD WRIGHT: These questions have been discussed as between the Government representatives and the Law Society and they have come to the conclusion, with which I agree, that the exemption contained in the Amendment which I have just read is sufficient. In the Act of 1933, which deals, of course, with the obligation to comply with the rules as to the keeping of accounts made by the Law Society, there was a further exemption, of county officers and officers of local authorities and statutory undertakings; but it has been considered that it is neither desirable nor necessary to extend the exemption as far as that in this case. Of course, if these gentlemen do not take out practising certificates—and I gather that most of them will not—then nothing in the measure applies to them at all, because the Bill applies only to solicitors who take out a practising certificate, and that is how I ask that the Bill should stand.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 2:
Compensation Fund.
(5) The Society may borrow money for the purposes of the Compensation Fund from any lender provided that the sum or sums owing at any one time in respect of such loans shall not in the aggregate exceed one hundred thousand pounds, and the Society may by way of security for any such loan charge any investments of the Compensation Fund.
LORD WRIGHT LORD WRIGHT moved, at the end of subsection (5), to insert:
"Provided that so long as the making of an issue of capital in the United Kingdom, without the consent of the Treasury, is prohibited by Regulations made under the Emergency Powers (Defence) Acts, 1939 and 1940, it shall not be lawful for the Society to exercise the powers of borrowing conferred by this subsection without such consent."
The noble and learned Lord said: This deals with the fund which the Law Society will be keeping for purposes of compensation. Subsection (5) provides that the Society may borrow money for purposes of the compensation fund, subject to various conditions. The additional proviso which this Amendment, which is proposed at the request of the Treasury, would add, is that so long as the present Regulations made under Emergency Powers (Defence) Acts require the sanction of the Treasury to any borrowing, the powers of borrowing under subsection (5) shall not be exercised without the consent of the Treasury. I suggest that that is a perfectly proper provision.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 28, at end insert the said proviso.—(Lord Wright.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 3 to 17 agreed to.
Clause 18 [Council to make rules as to certain matters]:
LORD WRIGHT LORD WRIGHT moved to insert:
"(3) Nothing in this section shall affect the Treasury Solicitor acting in his capacity as such."
The noble and learned Lord said: Clause 18 deals with what I may call trustee solicitors, solicitors who are trustees, and it is desired by this Amendment, which is proposed at the request of the Treasury, to provide that nothing in this clause shall affect the Treasury Solicitor acting in his capacity as such. That simply means that the Treasury Solicitor, who, in the course of his official duties, has often to assume the position of trustee in respect of a number of public trusts, shall not be subject to the various provisions of this clause as to the keeping of accounts, the audit of accounts and so on.
Amendment moved—
Page 15, line 25, at end insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Wright.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 18, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
Schedules agreed to.
Then, Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended, Bill read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

LIABILITIES (WAR-TIME ADJUSTMENT) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to Order).
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I have it in command from His Majesty to signify to the House that His Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the Liabilities (War-Time Adjustment) Bill, gives his consent, as far as His Majesty's interest is concerned, on behalf of the Crown and on behalf of the Duchy of Cornwall, that the House may do therein as they shall think fit.
Amendments (privilege) made; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

PUBLIC WORKS LOANS BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order).
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill do now pass.
Moved, That the Bill do now pass.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
THE EARL OF GLASGOW: My Lords, referring to powers of borrowing by local authorities, I should like to ask the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack a question of which I have given him private notice. Prior to the outbreak of the war, it was the practice of most local authorities in Scotland to borrow money on bill or promissory note when the money was required only for a short period. At that time, several of the larger local authorities, when promoting Provisional Orders or Private Acts, arranged to include therein clauses giving them specific power to borrow in this way. Shortly before the war, the English banks refused to discount bills or promissory notes of those local authorities who had not specific powers to borrow by this means. The obvious result of this is that local authorities who had included in local Acts such a provision, without at the time having any anticipation of its ultimate effect, are still being able to borrow by way of bill, which the local authorities, not so placed, but performing exactly the same functions, are not able to do.
To make the deterrent effect quite clear, the present interest rate on bills is slightly over 1 per cent., whereas short-term borrowing by other methods involves a payment of interest of about twice that rate. The matter was taken up by the

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Association of County Councils for Scotland with the Government, who were asked that the same powers of borrowing should be conferred on all public authorities. The Government refused to take action, on the ground that to give more public authorities powers to borrow by bill would be against the national interest. The result of this is that in my own county alone in a full year the ratepayers have to set aside an additional sum by way of interest of approximately £10,000, a burden not felt by those local authorities who, by chance, have specific powers to borrow by way of bill. Surely this is a case of making certain that Paul, the Government, will get his money by robbing Peter, the ratepayer. Doubtless my advice will be overruled, but, in all fairness and justice, all local authorities should be placed on the same footing in the matter of short-term borrowing. I do not want to criticise the Goverment in any way. I realise that there is a war on and that things are difficult in regard to borrowing, but this is a legitimate grievance. My object in rising is to request the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack to ask the Treasury to bear this point in mind, and if unable to adjust it now during the war, then to deal with it the moment the war is over.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, by leave of the House, I will give a short answer to the noble Earl. He gave me notice, and I would deal with the matter further if I possibly could. It is essentially a Treasury and financial matter, and it is a matter to which I had my attention drawn when I held a different office. I should be glad to take the opportunity of calling the special attention of my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to what the noble Earl has said.
On Question, Bill read 3a, and passed.

NATIONAL SERVICE BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.
Then, Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended;
LORD SNELL: My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord, Snell.)
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, there are one or two matters I venture to raise mainly for clarification and explanation on behalf of the London County Council, who of course speak with a mind both to their own difficulties when this Bill is passed into law and to the difficulties that may confront all local authorities employing Civil Defence Services. I must apologise very sincerely to my noble friend opposite for not having been able to give him due notice of these matters, but as my own attention was only drawn to them this morning, it was a physical impossibility for me to do so. The County Council very much hope that the Government will bear in mind the fact that this Bill will throw more work on the shoulders of their staff. At a time like this it is exceedingly difficult for them to recruit additional staff, and in fact, owing to the raising of the age of reservation, the number of their staffs is likely to decline in the near future. It is hoped that the Government will bear in mind the difficulties that will confront the local authorities from the point of view of administration when this extra burden is placed on their shoulders.
There are two points of less importance, but still points that deserve consideration, which I wish briefly to raise. The first relates to the conditions of service of those who will be called up for Civil Defence under this Bill. All that the County Council would wish to request of the Government is that if the conditions of service are likely to affect them disadvantageously from the point of view of their own employees at the moment, they should be informed and consulted beforehand. It was suggested in another place that consultation might cause undue delay. The County Council are not of the opinion that serious delay is entailed in a consultation between their representatives and those of the Ministry, and very much hope that on points affecting their interests very closely such talks may be held before the Government make up their mind.
The other point is also merely a request for prior consultation. In another place it was mentioned by the Minister that the Government are anxious to form some sort of national and regional reserve of personnel for civil defence. All that the London County Council wish to ask of the Government is that before any of their civil defence workers are drafted away for

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service in such reserve, the Council may be consulted because such a step might, in given circumstances, affect their civil defence work in a very serious manner. I apologise again to my noble friend for not having been able to give him longer notice of these points, but I know that the London County Council and local authorities, generally, would appreciate anything he could say in the matter.
LORD FARINGDON: My Lords, on the Second Reading of this Bill I mentioned the danger of reviving under this measure the process which, in the last war, came to be called the "cat-and-mouse" process. There are in this Bill certain penal provisions in Clauses 2, 4, and 5 for those who are unable to accept the Bill or who have offended against its provisions in one way or another. As your Lordships are aware, the "cat-and-mouse" process is the process by which a man who has fulfilled a sentence for an offence, on emerging from the completion of that sentence finds himself immediately re-condemned to another period of imprisonment. This is a process which was found to be highly undesirable during the last war. Such penalties seem to degenerate into persecution, and bring the administration—as at any rate some of your Lordships will agree—into disrepute. I have given the noble Lord rather slight notice that I should raise this point, but I do hope that he, on behalf of the Government, may be able to give us some kind of an assurance.
LORD SNELL: My Lords, the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, raised points of interest in regard to conditions of service. He will understand that I cannot claim to speak for the several Departments concerned, owing to not having had an opportunity of consulting them. But I think it would be safe for me to say that the Government will see that the local government authorities are consulted whenever the conditions affect them or their work. The same applies to the second point raised by the noble Lord. Whenever the conditions permit—and I cannot swear that the conditions will always allow of it, but it is the intention of the Government that they should—consultation with the local authorities will take place, because it is not in the interest of the Government or their desire or intention to injure at all the work of the local authorities.
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The problem raised by the noble Lord, Lord Faringdon, is a more difficult one for me to answer. As I understand him, he states that under the principal Act there is a provision existing dealing with the case of a man claiming to be a conscientious objector when he is in the Armed Forces who may be undergoing imprisonment and then find himself in trouble again. I believe, however, that his case can be re-heard by the Appellate Tribunal for Conscientious Objectors if he claims that his offence was committed on the grounds of conscience. That, I hope, will give some comfort to the noble Lord in the objection that he has raised. The difficulties of the position suggested by the noble Lord are of course well known, and we have no desire that they should be repeated on the present occasion. It is very much hoped that it will not be necessary to proceed over and over again against any individual, but power to do so must be there. The Government cannot, I am afraid, deny themselves the use of these powers if the individual insists on repeating over and over again what the Government think is an offence, but I hope that in actual experience it will be found that the consideration of the difficulties concerned will allow the work to proceed without any of the evils that the noble Lord deplores.
On Question, Bill read 3a, and passed.

ARMY AND AIR FORCE (ANNUAL) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; and read 1a.
Then, Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended:
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (LORD CROFT): My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be read a second time. I understand that it is possible for the remaining stages to be taken at the next sitting. As your Lordships know, it has to be taken within a certain time. The Amendments embodied in the Bill are, I think, very simple, and unless your Lordships desire to call attention to any one of them I think that it is unnecessary for me to say anything about them to-day.
Moved, That the Bill be read 2a.—(Lord Croft.)
LORD ADDISON: My Lords, although most of us are tolerably familiar with this Bill, which may be truly described as a hardy annual, may I ask the noble Lord whether it would not be possible to give the House a little longer opportunity for seeing the Bill rather than expect us, as I have no doubt we shall quite willingly, to pass it at the next sitting? Is it the custom that we should have only such a short time in which to consider a Bill of this kind, or is it necessary?
LORD CROFT: My Lords, you realise that there has been a lot of business in another place, and in fact this Bill has only recently come along. We had been hoping to take it last week. The Amendments proposed in this Bill are so very simple that they have not aroused any controversy in another place. I understand the Bill was circulated when it was first introduced into the House of Commons.
LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, I should like to add one word to what has been said by my noble friend Lord Croft. Although this Bill has come up here at short notice, and has been somewhat hurriedly passed, may I say that, unlike those Bills that go through all their stages at one sitting, all the stages of this Bill are not being taken to-day. The Third Reading and the passing of the Bill will give an opportunity to noble Lords in any part of the House to raise any points if they wish to do so.
LORD ADDISON: My Lords, I hope the noble Lord will not think that, in raising the point I have made, I am offering or suggesting any opposition to this Bill, or to any of the Amendments made in it. I am not. I have only done what I have done in order to secure as far as may be that the House shall have all reasonable opportunity of examining these Bills at leisure.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

ISLE OF MAN (DETENTION) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; and read 1a.
Then, Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended:
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA AND BURMA (THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE): My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be read a second time. I ought, perhaps, to give your Lordships some few words of explanation about the Bill, which is purely an enabling Bill designed to remove the technical and legal difficulties in the way of moving to the Isle of Man persons detained under various orders and powers of the Home Secretary. The Bill is necessary because, as many of your Lordships, more learned in these matters than I am, are aware, the Isle of Man forms no part of the British Isles. No difficulty arises about enemy aliens who are detained under the Prerogative, many of whom, indeed most of whom, are already interned in the Isle of Man, but there is no provision under the law as it stands whereby either non-enemy aliens or British subjects may be sent outside the United Kingdom.
The Bill may have an effect upon about 1,100 persons—about 800 persons who are detained under Regulation 18B, and about 240 non-enemy aliens detained under Article 12 of the Aliens Order. This Bill will enable the Home Secretary to arrange for such of these persons as he thinks desirable to be detained in the Isle of Man. There are many obvious advantages in the removal of some of these persons to the Isle of Man. One is that the camping equipment in this country is very urgently desired by the military authorities for the housing of the rapidly extending Armed Forces of the Crown. Another is that the administrative and managing staff who deal with interned persons is to a large extent now centralised in the Isle of Man, and the control of administration will be very much easier if all the internees and detained persons are in the same island. Moreover, on security grounds, I need not stress the point that there are advantages in having these persons detained in an island separated by a broad stretch of water from the mainland or anywhere else, rather than having them in places where it is conceivable they might do damage in this country.
The Bill deals only with the arrangements for the custody of persons who are already detained and it does not touch the grounds upon which they are detained or any other subject. It merely enables the Home Secretary to remove to

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the Isle of Man persons already under detention in this country. I am very jealous of the rights of citizens, even if they are treacherous citizens, and I have satisfied myself that a citizen will suffer no loss of civil rights by his detention in the Isle of Man. Indeed in many ways his position will be somewhat better. The necessity for supervision will be somewhat less, and he will enjoy, I think, on the whole more comfortable conditions of detention in the Isle of Man than he has in this country. The only disadvantage he will suffer will be that visits from friends and relatives will be more difficult in the Isle of Man, but my right honourable friend the Home Secretary assures me that he is endeavouring to make arrangements to overcome this difficulty. With these few words of explanation I hope your Lordships will agree to give the Bill a Second Reading.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Duke of Devonshire.)
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, I am sure you will give this small and useful measure the same wholehearted assent as it received in another place and that no one who heard what the noble Duke had to say will disagree with any part of his remarks. I think
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his statement in relation to the preservation of civil rights for those who are transferred to the Isle of Man will remove any conceivable objection such as that suggested in another place. There is just one small point to which I should like to draw the attention of the Government There are a certain number of women who have been detained for several months in Holloway prison. These women fall under one of the categories mentioned by the noble Duke. They are British citizens technically, but their allegiance in fact is owed elsewhere. It is clearly undesirable for them to be kept any longer than is absolutely necessary under the penal conditions of a prison régime. I very much hope that the passage of this Bill will enable the Government to transfer them to another and more suitable place of detention. I should also like to express the hope that when this Bill becomes law it may be put into operation as speedily as possible and that there may not be any serious delay, as there sometimes is, between the passage of an enactment into law and its operation by those responsible for its administration.
On Question, Bill read 2a and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
House adjourned.