HL Deb 02 April 1941 vol 118 cc952-73

VISCOUNT ELIBANK had the following Notice on the Paper: To ask His Majesty's Government whether they will consider in consultation with the Governments concerned the desirability of forming an Imperial War Council, consisting of (1) the Prime Ministers of the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland, and of the Dominions and Southern Rhodesia or their representatives; (2) a representative of India and (3) a representative of the Colonies and Protectorates; further, that the function of the Imperial War Council shall be to co-ordinate action, so far as possible, upon major questions of Imperial policy arising out of the war and in the settlement of the peace; and to move for Papers.

The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I should like first to remind your Lordships very briefly of the history of my Motion to-day. In August of last year the noble Lord, Lord Davies, asked a question of His Majesty's Government as to whether they intended to call the Dominion Ministers into conference on matters of common interest connected with the war, and received a reply that the time was not opportune. On October 8 last year, in your Lordships' House, I advocated the setting up of an Imperial War Cabinet by broadening the basis of the existing War Cabinet. The following week, on October 16, the noble Lord, Lord Davies, advocated the establishment of a Supreme War Council upon which the Dominions and India should be represented. In the course of his reply to that, the noble Lord, Lord Snell, Deputy-Leader of the House, emphasized that the question was of surpassing importance, and both to my speech and that of the noble Lord, Lord Davies, he said that we should wait for further information enabling consideration of the matter in greater detail to be made. Five months have elapsed since then, and there has been no public pronouncement of any kind from His Majesty's Government upon this subject, and that is why I have put down my Motion to-day.

This Motion, however, is somewhat differently framed from that on the last occasion, because to-day, instead of asking His Majesty's Government, as I did then, to broaden the basis of the War Cabinet in order to create an Imperial War Council, I am, after further consideration, asking His Majesty's Government, in consultation with the Governments of the Empire, to establish an Imperial War Council on the lines laid down in my Motion. In the last war there was, as in this war, a War Cabinet. This War Cabinet was in frequent session. In addition there was an Imperial War Cabinet which met less frequently, but, as was stated in an official statement issued in August, 1918, it really became active in the last year of the war. It was recorded in that statement that the Imperial War Cabinet had been in continual session for two and a half months, and that all aspects of policy affecting the conduct of the war and the question of peace had been examined by the Prime Ministers of the Empire and other members representative of all its parts. In this war, as in the last war, we have a War Cabinet which sits constantly, but we have got no counterpart of the Imperial War Cabinet which was so valuable in the last war. I submit that the necessity for one in this war is even greater than in the last war.

I am advocating the creation of an Imperial War Council rather than an Imperial War Cabinet, on this occasion, because I believe it is more in keeping with the conditions which at present exist and with the developments in the Empire during the last ten or fifteen years. My noble friend Lord Davies would prefer me to call it a Supreme War Council and I certainly will not quarrel with him over that term, because I should be quite content if it were named a Supreme War Council so long as it achieves, as I believe it probably would achieve, what I have in aim, that is, coordinated co-operation within the Empire on major questions of war policy and of the peace settlement. As I have just said, it seems to me more necessary in this war to have a War Council representative of the Empire than it was in the last war. There is little need for me on this occasion to emphasize the far greater magnitude of the varied and invaluable assistance which has been so freely and voluntarily given by the Dominion Governments, by the Colonies and Protectorates, and by India in this war. These details are well known to your Lordships, but I think I might very briefly mention, and pay tribute to, some of the assistance which has been given by these countries.

I would like to pay tribute to the brilliant and valiant fighting by the Australians, and perhaps in a lesser degree by the New Zealanders, in the victorious campaign in Libya, and also to the glorious part which was played by Indian Forces in the successful battle of Keren in Eritrea under the most adverse and difficult conditions. Then again there has been the wonderful speed and effectiveness with which the South African and Rhodesian Forces have advanced through Italian Somaliland and into Eastern Abyssinia to Diredawa under the skilled leadership of that great soldier and statesman General Smuts, who was so eminent and valuable a member of the Imperial War Cabinet in the last war. These achievements will have renown for long in the annals of our military history. I must refer also to the number and the extent of the war efforts which Canada is making, war efforts of immense importance in the cause for which we are fighting, efforts which arc varied and are of a nature which will, more and more as war proceeds, make a solid impression on the enemy. And there are other reasons why I believe an Imperial War Council is more necessary than in the last war. I would point to the much wider area over which this war has spread and consequently to the greater war efforts which are demanded of this country and of the Empire. Then again we have unfortunately been faced with the early capitulation in this war of France, our staunch and faithful Ally in the last war. Through that, no matter for what reason, she has created for us difficulties of such a number and immensity that, but for our grim and unalterable determination to fight on, we might well have been overcome by their weight and complexity.

Lastly, I must instance that to-day, as was not the case in the last war, practically all Europe is under the Nazi heel, whilst in the Far East Hitler has as his accomplice Japan, who plays to his tune and keeps in a constant state of anxiety, turmoil and ferment the Pacific, where several of our Dominions, Colonies and Protectorates have the most vital interests. Indeed, there is no part of the world in which we are not struggling, in one form or another, by military or by diplomatic means, to combat all the Nazi tentacles stretched out in every direction to impose Nazi domination and Nazi rule, and to destroy everywhere freedom, liberty and everything that we believe makes life worth living. If these, then, are the conditions and difficulties with which we as an Empire are confronted, and which we have to surmount in order to achieve victory, how can we hope to do this unless we have machinery and organisation actually in being and ready which will enable the Governments of the Empire, as and when required, to act not only in the closest co-operation but in real unity? I venture to predict that as the war progresses, as peace draws nearer, and when peace comes the problems with which we shall have to deal will grow even more numerous and difficult and urgent. Then will be required for their solution and settlement all the collective wisdom and statesmanship which the Empire can produce.

I may probably be told in reply that there is already sufficiently close cooperation between the Government of this country and the Governments of the Dominions, and that, through daily informal conferences held between the Sec- retary of State for the Dominions—who, I am glad to know, will be responding to my Motion—and the High Commissioners, as well as through weekly informal conferences between the High Commissioners themselves, all is done that is required for this purpose. In this connexion, I should-like to pay tribute to the High Commissioners, all of whom are gentlemen most able and distinguished, and naturally held in the highest respect, both in this country and by the Governments they represent. I do not in the least underestimate the value of these informal conferences. They are, and they must be, most valuable, and I do not even suggest that if and when, as I hope it may, an Imperial War Council shall be established these conferences shall be done away with during the time that the Council is not in session. In fact, I hope that they may continue in between times, but I have no hesitation in saying that in the circumstances which I have described these informal conferences do not, and cannot, always go far enough, and they do not, and cannot, achieve the unity of purpose and decision or the results which would be secured by a regularised body of Empire statesmen sitting and acting together under directly responsible conditions.

Moreover (and I mention this with some diffidence in the presence of my noble friend Lord Cecil), there is an obvious disability in the present system, in that the Secretary of State for the Dominions is not a member of the War Cabinet. I venture to suggest that he should be, and I am sure the Dominions would appreciate it if such action were taken. The Secretary of State for the Dominions is, therefore, not always present at the meetings of the War Cabinet, and the information which is received by the High Commissioners from him at the daily conferences must sometimes be third-hand and not even second-hand. That is an unsatisfactory state of affairs. which I am sure your Lordships will agree ought to be remedied.

Let me refer to another point. I frankly confess that when I last spoke on this subject in your Lordships' House I held the view that the Statute of Westminster might form a deterrent to the setting up of such a Council as I have indicated. But since then I have thought the matter over again very carefully, and have come to the conclusion that, far from the Statute of Westminster being a deterrent to such a step, it would indeed be helpful. Let me remind your Lordships of the origin of the Statute of Westminster. It was the wish especially on the part of certain of the Dominions to have entire freedom and absolution from any form of control over them from this country. This absolute freedom was conferred upon them by the Statute of Westminster, and I can conceive, and I am sure your Lordships can conceive, of no step, no action on the part of the Mother Country which would in the future deprive them of, or detract from, what was so freely and whole-heartedly given to them under the Statute of Westminster. That it was so readily given is proof of the spirit in which it was given and of the spirit which, for 150 years, has underlain the relationship between Great Britain and her Dependencies. That being so, any participation by the Dominions in important work for the purpose of the better prosecution of the war and the establishment of the subsequent peace would be perfectly free action on their part. It would be the act of free Governments coming and acting together for a common and vital cause, and such a Council could be as freely dissolved, when it had served its purpose, as it had been freely formed.

I visualise that a time may come when the United States of America, whose magnificent material support and collaboration in the war we so greatly need and so warmly welcome and appreciate, might think it desirable and useful to have representation on such a Council in order to co-ordinate action amongst the English-speaking peoples and democracies. It is certain that after the war the British Empire and the United States alone will possess between them the requisite combination of power, prestige and resources to maintain world peace and to help to restore world order out of world chaos. Indeed, it would not be altogether as inopportune as it might seem to invite President Roosevelt to nominate a representative to the Imperial War Council. Morally, it would be a notable gesture of recognition of America's part in the fight for democracy; and economically it would enormously help America in her efforts to assist the Empire's war needs. Constitutionally it would provide a striking lead to the Governments of the Empire, whilst to the world at large it would be signal proof of the solidarity and determination of the English-speaking peoples to fight and to achieve victory over tyranny.

Finally, let me say that there is not a single one of our Dominions, Colonies or Protectorates—and in this acknowledgment I of course gladly include India, now on the verge of Dominion status— that has not voluntarily and readily, and even eagerly, ranged herself alongside the Mother Country in her fight to overcome the onslaught of the Nazi tyrant and of the German and Italian peoples. I am not a lone voice in my advocacy of an Empire War Council. There are echoes of it in the Dominions from those who feel that their Governments' participation in the War Councils of the Empire is not commensurate with their war effort. So I venture to suggest to His Majesty's Governments, both here and in the Dominions, that this is a matter that cannot lightly be set aside and that sooner or later public opinion in all parts of the Empire will demand this fulfilment as the only direct way of shouldering the common burdens and of reaping the full benefit of the immense sacrifices which we are all making, and which we still have to make, in order to secure victory and win the peace. I beg to move for Papers.

THE MARQUESS OF CREWE

My Lords, I feel sure that the whole House will sympathise with the purpose which the noble Viscount opposite had in mind in placing this Motion on the Paper. In the first place, we all agree with what he said as to our full recognition of and admiration for the unstinted efforts of the whole overseas Empire—the great Dominions, India, and the Colonial Empire—in playing their full part and in casting all their energies into the resistance to the aggression from which all the rest of the world is suffering. That being so, it is natural that the noble Viscount should seek a method of closer concerted action between all the component parts of the Empire.

As we all know, there is no precedent in history for the overseas Empire, the wide Dominions which owe allegiance to the British Crown. If you go back a hundred years, there was then a proposition that representatives of the Colonies might sit in both Houses of Parliament, on the principle which until recently ob tained in the French Senate and the French Chamber of Deputies. Later on, fifty or sixty years ago, the hope of a system of Imperial federation was entertained by many thoughtful people, but i was found that the difficulties of forming any kind of Central Congress parallel to that which exists in the United States, and also the widely entertained objection to anything like a Customs union, made such a notion of Imperial federation the opposite of feasible; and, as the years went on, it became more and more evident that the great English-speaking Dominions were far more set upon managing their own affairs in their own way and in taking their own line.

I recall the Imperial Conference which took place in 1909, when I was Colonial Secretary, and therefore concerned with the affairs of the whole of the overseas Empire with the exception of India; and I remember that at that time some surprise was expressed here at the fixed determination of one or two of the Dominion Ministers that it should be asserted that they were not expected to take part in any war in which the British Government might engage unless they desired to do so. As I say, surprise was expressed in some quarters at that pro position, but we saw at once that it was a reasonable demand for the Dominions to make, because we felt full confidence that, if they believed our cause to be just, they would be the very first to come forward to support it; and so it has proved. In every difficulty in which this country has been involved, the support of the whole Empire has been forthcoming. Even in the autumn of 1922, when we were on the verge of starting a fresh war with Turkey in circumstances which aroused great criticism both here and all over the Empire, the Dominion Governments did not actually withhold their support, although they were not specially anxious to offer it, and explained that they must obtain the sanction of their own Parliaments before taking part. They in no way declined their support, however. Then, as the culmination, came the Statute of Westminster, of which the noble Viscount has spoken.

That being so, it is in no way surprising that the noble Viscount considers that the formation of such an Imperial Council as he suggests would be a fair tribute on our part to the assistance which the Empire has rendered to us during so many years; and it is true, of course, that any co-operation which we can receive from statesmen both in the great Dominions and in other parts of the Empire is most highly welcomed here. As the noble Viscount stated, the presence of Mr. Menzies is felt to be in itself a strengthening fact to His Majesty's Government here, and such help, by advice and encouragement, as he is able to give undoubtedly enforces the decisions which His Majesty's Government are able to make. But at the same time I think we have to ask ourselves whether the formal creation of such an Imperial Council, although it would be regarded as a representative authority defining the different sections of which the Empire is composed, would in itself contribute to efficient and prompt action in the carrying on of the war. Would it lead to a speedier combination of the different minds brought to bear on the complicated problems of carrying on the war at this moment? I confess I have doubts in that regard. It seems to me that the creation of such a body, holding periodical meetings and carrying on prolonged argumentative discussion, could hardly tend to speedier solutions of the difficult problems of the moment. I should fear that there would be an increasing tendency to refer for instructions and for agreement many different questions to the various Governments which would be involved all over the world, and that the general effect would be somewhat to slow down the action of Governments in matters in which rapid decision may be of the essence of securing victory.

I should like also to know whether the creation of a formal body of this kind has been seriously demanded from any part of the Empire, either from one of the great Dominions or from any other part. If such a demand were made no doubt it would greatly affect the decision upon which His Majesty's Government will have to arrive. I await therefore the statement which will be made from the Front Bench on the general question which the noble Viscount has raised, being aware that the Government are in possession of facts governing the position at the moment which cannot be known to the country at large. In saying this I am far from suggesting that a little later on the formation of a body of this kind may not be absolutely necessary.

The noble Viscount's Question concludes with the statement: that the function of the Imperial War Council shall be to co-ordinate action, so far as possible, upon major questions of Imperial policy arising out of the war and in the settlement of the peace. That I fully understand, but it is hardly possible that at this moment such a Council, supposing it to exist, could refrain from stating its opinions upon questions, not of the future but of the present moment. Therefore I should suggest to the noble Viscount that, although he has expressed regret that this question has been incubated for so long a period as five months, he will permit the eggs to be sat on for a still longer-period; and if at a suitable time he raises the question again I feel certain that His Majesty's Government will be able to speak of it with more immediate sympathy than I have felt it possible to do. For all I know they may be prepared to do so now, but I hope the noble Viscount will forgive me for having expressed my opinion that a still longer period of delay will be to the advantage of the country.

LORD CHATFIELD

My Lords, I do not wish to detain the House more than a few minutes because I know your Lordships are waiting to hear a very important debate which is to follow. There arc two points raised by the noble Viscount in his Motion. One is that we should set up an Imperial War Council to prosecute the war; and, secondly, that that same body should continue so as to carry us over in our Imperial mentality from war to peace. As regards the first part of the Motion, the noble Marquess has put his finger on the weak spot— namely, whether it would really help to improve our conduct of the war. While endorsing all that the noble Viscount and the noble Marquess have said as regards the wonderful debt we owe to our Dominions and our Colonies for all they have done, I cannot help thinking that to set up an Imperial War Council now would not really contribute to speedy decision, or speedy action, or help us to get victory any sooner.

It must be remembered that since the last war we have set up an organisation which is called the Chiefs of Staff Committee, which has under it a vast organi- sation that is able to advise the Minister of Defence, who is fortunately now also the Prime Minister, as regards strategy. That body, which consists of the Prime Minister and the three Chiefs of Staff, and which meets daily, seems to be far the best organisation you could have to advise the War Cabinet as a whole on how our strategy shall be carried out. We cannot but say that the results achieved by the present organisation have been exceedingly satisfactory. Especially do we feel that at this particular moment.

But when we come to the second part of the Motion, there I hope His Majesty's Government will give more thought to that question as to how they are going to carry over our military problems from war to peace, because anyone who, like myself, has served for nearly thirteen years on the Board of Admiralty, and who during that time has had to, fight continually for money for the defence of this Empire, must realise more fully than most the weak points which have existed in our Imperial Defence organisation. The Committee of Imperial Defence has not been the safeguard it should have been. It is only an advisory body, and it has no authority and no right to cross-question any of the decisions that are made as regards the Service Estimates. So we have found Governments dipping into our Imperial Defence insurance money for other and more popular purposes.

This is not the time, as the noble Marquess has said, to go into details of that nature, but I should like to remind your Lordships that it is when one's house is on fire and before the firemen have saved it that one feels most strongly his foolishness in not having properly insured the house. This is the time when our thoughts naturally turn to that, and this is the time when we should begin thinking how we are going to prevent these things ever happening again. Therefore I endorse that part of the noble Viscount's Motion where he advocates that there should be Imperial consideration given in good time, not when the Peace Marches are taking place and everything is being forgotten, but before we are out of the wood. Let us set up some inquiry to consider how we are going to be wiser in future and prevent the mistakes that have been made ever putting us into the same hazardous position again.

LORD GIFFORD

My Lords, I have listened with great interest to the remarks of the noble Viscount, Lord Elibank, and at first sight his proposal seems an interesting and attractive one. I should have liked very much to support it, but I feel that there is one grave difficulty which cannot be got over, and that is, if this War Council is formed, how far could the representative of a particular Dominion or Colony speak with authority for his Government? I submit to your Lordships that that would be in many cases impossible, and we might even have the very difficult situation arising of something which has been said by the representative of a particular Dominion being afterwards repudiated by the Government of that Dominion. Therefore it is with great regret I cannot support the noble Viscount's Motion, especially as I have been a great deal in the Dominions and have the greatest sympathy with their aspirations. There is, however, one suggestion I should like to make—namely, that while I do not feel it is practicable to have an Imperial War Council with regular representatives of every Dominion and Colony—

VISCOUNT ELIBANK

I did not say a representative of every Colony. If the noble Lord will look at my Motion, he will see it refers to a representative of the Colonies and Protectorates collectively.

LORD GIFFORD

I beg the noble Viscount's pardon. I should like to put forward a suggestion to His Majesty's Government that they should seriously consider, where some brilliant man from the Dominions is available, whether they might include him as an individual in the War Cabinet. That, as your Lordships know, was done in the last war, and I can think of one or two very fine men, known to us all, who might be considered for a similar position now.

LORD DAVIES

My Lords, perhaps I may be allowed to make a few observations on the Motion which has been moved by my noble friend Lord Elibank, because as long ago as last August I called the attention of the House to this important matter. The reply of the Government at that time, about nine months ago, was that they would certainly welcome such discussions if occasion offered. One would imagine that since that date there have been many occasions when an Imperial War Council might have been held with advantage to co-ordinate the ever-increasing war effort of the British Commonwealth and to survey the whole range of British policy. Recently, as my noble friend has already told us, some progress has been made, and Mr. Menzies, the Australian Prime Minister, has accepted the invitation of the British Government to be a member of the War Cabinet during his stay in this country. I believe an invitation has been addressed to the Prime Minister of New Zealand to pay a visit to this country, and I presume that he also will be invited to join in the discussions of the War Cabinet.

I submit that the attitude of the Government in regard to the creation of an Imperial War Council is not clear. It is somewhat obscure and ambiguous because, in another place, as recently as last December, it was stated that "the Prime Minister does not contemplate adding representatives of the Dominions to the War Cabinet at the present time." This reply was quoted by the Prime Minister of Canada in a debate in the Canadian House of Commons on February 17. which gave the impression that the Government here did not desire to constitute an Imperial War Council. Could the noble Lord who replies on behalf of the Government tell us what is their considered policy? Do they or do they not as far as they are concerned wish that such a body should be constituted as part of our administrative machinery for the conduct of the war and preparation for the peace? I would, therefore, venture to plead for clarification so as to remove any misapprehension which may exist.

In the debate to which I have alluded in the Canadian Parliament, Mr. Mackenzie King dealt at some length with the proposal for an Imperial War Council; and may I be allowed to quote a few extracts from his speech? He said: We are engaged in the war, as partners in a joint enterprise. If our effort is to fit into the efforts of the other British nations to produce a strong unified whole, our plans must be made in consultation with them. Then again: The imposing title—Imperial War Council —undoubtedly has for many a special appeal. An Imperial War Council composed of the Prime Ministers of the Dominions and the British Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs and presided over by the Prime Minister of Great Britain would, in fact, be an imposing body. … It suggests, too, opportunities for "direct and intimate conference in the shaping of a common policy for the prosecution of the war in which the whole Commonwealth has so vital a concern. … A moment may come when it will be both desirable and necessary for a conference of the kind to be held in London or some other part of the British Empire. Mr. Mackenzie King then went on to say: The proposal can best be judged by one simple test. Is it the most effective means of achieving the desired end? It is true that there is nothing imposing about the means which are employed. It may nevertheless be said that at this very time such a Council exists in reality though it has no visible form. Then he goes on to describe the invisible form in these words: There are thus, so to speak, three sending and three receiving sources, through each of which special classes of communications are sent and received. (A) From Prime Minister to Prime Minister direct, those which relate to matters of high policy. (B) Through the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs to the Secretary of State for External Affairs and vice versa. Matters more general in character and relating more particularly to information in detail on operations and the progress of the war. (C) And finally, special communications supplementing those from the sources mentioned, from the High Commissioner to the Prime Minister, or to the Secretary of State for External Affairs, and vice versa. I doubt indeed if a more efficient arrangement could possibly be made. The Canadian Prime Minister then alluded to visits which have been undertaken by Canadian Ministers to this country, which he said have been of the greatest assistance to the Government in co-ordinating our war effort to the war effort of the United Kingdom. Perhaps it may be impertinent on my part to point out that on the face of it these arrangements seem to be somewhat complicated, and might possibly with advantage be reduced to some I simpler form. However this may be, I think there will be general agreement that telephonic and wireless communications regarding questions of high policy between individual Prime Ministers are no substitute for discussion around the Council table where each has an opportunity of hearing the views of his colleagues and of assisting in formulating a common policy, such, for example, as the attitude of the Commonwealth towards the antics of Vichy, the tightening of the blockade, our relationships with Eire, and the use of the Atlantic ports. May I give another example to which I ventured to allude in a previous debate in this House? There was the question of the closing of the Burma road. Now when the Canadian Prime Minister was asked whether his advice had been sought on this subject, his reply was that he had not been asked for advice, that no advice had been given, and no comment had been made. The point, therefore, I would venture to emphasize is that bilateral communications are not an effective substitute for collective discussion out of which emerges a carefully considered and agreed policy.

Then there is, of course, the argument which has already been suggested here this afternoon that the proper place for the Dominion Prime Ministers is at home where they can be in constant touch with their own Cabinets. Mr. Mackenzie King laid great emphasis on this point. This is what he said: It affords the Prime Minister of each of the Dominions the opportunity of discussing immediately with his colleagues in his own Cabinet all aspects of every question raised. This is collective discussion at home which I respectfully submit can be undertaken as a preliminary to collective discussion in the Imperial War Council. I do not think anyone suggests that the Dominion Prime Ministers should reside permanently in London or anywhere else for the duration of the war. The Imperial War Council need not be in permanent session any more than the Supreme War Council of the Allies was during the last war. To-day, however, there are not only telephonic communications but new facilities for rapid travelling which did not exist twenty years ago, and which make it possible for Dominion Prime Ministers or their representatives to attend meetings of an Imperial War Council. The journey is no longer a matter of weeks but of days. I remember that at school a favourite topic of debate used to be: "Is woman's proper place at home?". I think most of us agreed that as a general rule it was; but we also felt that on occasion she could be engaged more usefully elsewhere. That I believe is the answer to the stay-at-home argument.

Lastly, there is the psychological factor. This is what the Canadian Prime Minister described as the imposing body which will make its appeal to every citizen of the British Commonwealth. As he has reminded us, the simple test is what is the most effective means of achieving the desired end. I believe that the desired end, to win the war and to win the peace, can best be achieved in the closest collaboration between the English-speaking peoples through some visible, not invisible, body constituted as I have already suggested in the first instance by the democracies of the British Commonwealth. Such a body will strengthen their morale and express their united determination to prosecute this war to a victorious conclusion.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DOMINION AFFAIRS (LORD CECIL) (Viscount Cranborne)

My Lords, I am sure that the House has listened with the greatest interest to the debate that is now drawing to a close. The Government certainly have no reason to complain of the noble Viscount having raised this question, for clearly, as he himself said, it is of the very first importance, not only from the point of view of our war effort but from the point of view of the future of the British Commonwealth of Nations, that at this particular and severe crisis in our history there should be the closest possible co-operation between Great Britain and the Dominions overseas. My only doubt as I listened to his speech was whether even now the noble Viscount fully realises how close and constant that collaboration already is. He referred to one channel of communication, the daily interviews which I have with the Dominion High Commissioners, but there are not merely one channel but three channels of communication. There are first of all the United Kingdom High Commissioners in the Dominions who are in the closest possible contact both with the Dominion Prime Ministers and with the Dominion Governments.

VISCOUNT ELIBANK

May I be allowed to interrupt? Does that mean that the High Commissioner in Canada, Mr. Malcolm MacDonald, has not gone there under the same conditions as the late High Commissioner in an industrial capacity, but that he will be looking after political and diplomatic questions as well?

LORD CECIL

That is not a true account of the functions of the High Commissioner in a Dominion. He communicates with the Dominion Government on any question on which His Majesty's Gov- ernment may wish to have communication. He is hot confined in any way to purely industrial functions, and never has been. To these High Commissioners go every day a stream of telegrams giving the latest information of the progress of events in the war. They also, of course, have the task of taking up with the Dominion Governments any questions which in the view of His Majesty's Government are better handled at the Dominions end. That is the first channel of communication. The second is the Dominion High Commissioners here in London. They perform, of course, to a great extent the same functions with regard to any matters which in the view of their Government are better dealt with and raised here on the spot in London. They are also in the very closest contact possible both with the Dominions Office and with the other offices of State.

I attach, personally, the very greatest importance to my daily contacts with the High Commissioners. I think they are an essential point of liaison between the Government here and the Dominions. I see the High Commissioners every day of the week, and I should be seeing them at this moment if it were not for this debate. I see them also, when the situation demands it, every week-end. I give them all the latest information—confidential, official information—on the international situation, and I also keep them in touch with the decisions and deliberations of the Government and the War Cabinet on matters affecting the Dominions. I would say in passing that it is not quite true to say I do not attend the meetings of the War Cabinet. It is true I am not a member of the War Cabinet, but I attend the meetings for the very reason which the noble Viscount himself stated, that so alone am I able to keep the Dominions in the closest possible touch with events. I would like to take the opportunity of saying how very useful I believe these meetings to be and how very deeply indebted I am to the Dominion High Commissioners for their constant help and collaboration. As your Lordships will appreciate, these day-to-day contacts are of the first importance to ensure that every development of the international situation is passed direct to the Dominion Governments. Moreover, I often receive personal suggestions from the High Commissioners of the utmost value which I am able to pass on to the Cabinet or to the Departments concerned.

Finally, there is the direct channel of communication, from Prime Minister to Prime Minister, or else from myself to my opposite numbers in the Dominions. That is, of course, the normal channel for the communication of information and views on matters of common concern between the various sections of the British Commonwealth, and it affords a valuable background for the closer personal contact which the High Commissioners themselves are able to maintain.

These three channels, which I have very briefly described, do, I think, provide a full and complete system of liaison between the Home Government and the Dominion Governments. In addition, superimposed upon that system, there are the frequent visits of Dominion Ministers to this country. During the comparatively short period that I have had the good fortune to be at the Dominions Office there have been several of these visits. Last October there was a visit from Mr. Gardiner, the Canadian Minister for Agriculture, and early this year, as your Lordships will know, we had visits from Colonel Ralston, the Canadian Minister of Defence, and Mr. C. D. Howe, the Canadian Minister of Munitions. On the occasion of these visits discussions of very real value took place between representatives of the two Governments. Further we have now, as your Lordships will be aware, a visit by Mr. R. G. Menzies, the Prime Minister of the Commonwealth of Australia. We are very glad, everybody is very glad, to welcome him to this country after a long and very adventurous journey in which, I believe, he visited every unit of the Australian troops in the Army of the Nile.

Since he has been here he has taken his full part as a Dominion Prime Minister in the deliberations of the War Cabinet, and has had numerous—I might almost say innumerable—meetings with members of the Government and their expert advisers. He has also had the opportunity of visiting our industrial centres and districts which have suffered very heavily from bombing. I am quite sure he will take back to Australia, when he goes back as he will very shortly, a complete picture of our war effort and of the situation as it now presents itself. His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom have had the great advantage of personal contact and consultation with him. We have derived very real benefit from the exchanges of views which have taken place.

I would also remind your Lordships of the conversations which have taken place lately between General Smuts and the Foreign Secretary in the Middle East. Anyone who knows that great soldier-statesman will realise how immensely valuable those discussions have proved to be. Finally, I am glad to confirm what has been already stated that Mr. Fraser, the Prime Minister of New Zealand, at the invitation of His Majesty's Government, hopes shortly to come on a visit to this country. We look forward very greatly to the opportunity for consultation and exchange of views which his visit will afford, and no doubt he will attend the War Cabinet in the same way that Mr. Menzies has done. The importance of these visits of Dominion Ministers cannot, in my view, be overestimated. Not only does it enable them to clear up outstanding and obstinate points which must arise at all times between two Governments but it enables them also to assess the situation on the spot, and when they go back to their own countries they can speak with personal experience and authority. I gather that the noble Viscount, Lord Elibank, suggests that this present machinery of Imperial collaboration should be extended still further by the formation of an Imperial War Council with representatives from every Dominion and collective representation of the Colonies and one for India. This Council, would, as I understand him, remain in permanent session.

VISCOUNT ELIBANK

My Lords, if I may be forgiven for interrupting, what I meant to convey was that that Council should sit from time to time and later on perhaps a great deal more, while in the meantime this machinery of informal conferences should continue.

LORD CECIL

I need not say that His Majesty's Government are, of course, heartily in favour, in principle, of anything which is likely to lead to closer collaboration between the various sections of the British Commonwealth. But I hardly think that at the present moment the particular proposal which the noble Viscount has in mind would be practically possible. It would involve each Dominion seconding for duty here a very important Minister—for he would have to be a very important Minister—who could ill be spared from his own country. Nor could such a Minister, however important, as my noble friend Lord Gifford has already said, take decisions over the head of his own Government. Every decision that was taken by this sort of Council would have to be a decision ad referendum. In fact, the Council would be an Imperial War Council only in name. Moreover, these Dominion representatives, valuable though they would be, would, I think, tend to a certain extent to get out of touch with affairs in their own home countries, and to that extent their value would be minimised. I do suggest that, at any rate for the present, and having regard to the present stage of the war, the existing arrangements reinforced, as they are at frequent intervals, by visits of Dominion Ministers is the most valuable and useful method of managing our affairs.

On the other hand, there are circumstances and situations in which conferences with Dominion Prime Ministers could be of the utmost value. A point, for instance, may be reached in the war when we are able to look a little more into the future than we can at the present time and at such a moment an Imperial Conference might not only be important but essential. Up to now, for reasons which your Lordships' House appreciates, in the view of the Government that moment has not yet come. But should the situation so alter as to make it possible to hold a conference of this kind I can assure the House that the Government would most heartily welcome it. In the meantime, I hope that your Lordships will not fall into the illusion of thinking that the present system works badly. It does not; it works very well. The noble Marquess, Lord Crewe, asked whether there had been any demand from any Dominion Government for alteration in the system. We have had no request, intimation or demand of any kind. I have seen no communication from any Dominion Government implying that a change is desirable. On the contrary, all that I have heard from the Dominion Governments has indicated their satisfaction with the present situation.

Lord Davies drew attention to a speech made by Mr. Mackenzie King on the 17th of February this year. I got a faint impression, listening to him, that he thought that Mr. Mackenzie King was in favour of an Imperial War Council at the present time. If he would look again at the Official Report for that day the noble Lord would see that Mr. Mackenzie King came to exactly the opposite conclusion. As the noble Lord has quoted portions of the speech I would like to read these two short paragraphs: At the present time there are means of effective communication and consultation in all matters pertaining to the war, much more comprehensive than anything which existed during the last war. I doubt, indeed, if a more efficient arrangement could possibly be made. The real but invisible Imperial Council made possible by these means of constant and instantaneous conference has one all-important advantage which would be denied to an Imperial War Council sitting in London. It affords the Prime Minister of each of the Dominions the opportunity of discussing immediately with his colleagues in his own Cabinet all aspects of every question raised. His expression of view, when given, is not. his alone—it is the expression of view of the Cabinet of which he is the head. It is an expression of view given by the Cabinet in the light of its responsibility to Parliament. It is, moreover, an expression of view given in the atmosphere, not of London, but of the Dominion itself,

LORD DAVIES

My Lords, if the noble Lord will forgive me, I would like to point out that I did quote a part of the passage from Mr. Mackenzie King's speech which he has just read. I also quoted other parts from which it is to be inferred that the Canadian Prime Minister realised that there are certain advantages which may accrue from an Imperial War Council.

LORD CECIL

The noble Lord will forgive me, I hope, but my complaint was that he quoted a portion of the passage and not the whole of it. Any noble Lord who will read that speech will see that Mr. Mackenzie King gives, as is to be expected from a statesman with his immense knowledge and experience, an accurate and clear description of the present position. So far as His Majesty's Government here are concerned, we shall continue to keep the Dominions in the very closest touch with events, and the Dominion Governments know very well already that His Majesty's Government here in England are very glad of any comments or any suggestions that they may wish to make. The position is, at the present time and always, under constant review and, should the war situation so develop as to make a conference of the kind that has been suggested possible, noble Lords may be certain that His Majesty's Government will take immediate steps to pursue the matter. Till then we shall warmly welcome the visits of individual Dominion Ministers. The more who come the better we shall be pleased.

VISCOUNT ELIBANK

My Lords, first of all, I should like to thank the noble Lord for his courteous reply to the Motion and I should like to say that I am not disappointed in it. I did not expect very much more than we have heard, but I did receive the satisfaction of hearing that the door is still open. As there is another debate to follow, I will conclude by thanking those noble Lords who have taken part in this debate and will adopt the suggestion of the noble Marquess, Lord Crewe, who has great experience and wisdom in these matters, to allow the subject to incubate. I will raise it again at another date and in the meantime beg leave to withdraw my Motion.

Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.