Lords Sitting of 2 April 1941

Preamble
The House met, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

EAST SURREY GAS BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932:
URBAN DISTRICT OF RUGELEY ORDER.
URBAN DISTRICT OF WELWYN GARDEN CITY ORDER.
LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend the Duke of Devonshire, I beg to move the Motion standing in his name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That the Orders made by the Secretaray of State for the Home Department under the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, and laid before the House yesterday, be approved.—(Lord Temple-more.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

THE EMPIRE AND THE WAR.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK VISCOUNT ELIBANK had the following Notice on the Paper: To ask His Majesty's Government whether they will consider in consultation with the Governments concerned the desirability of forming an Imperial War Council, consisting of (1) the Prime Ministers of the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland, and of the Dominions and Southern Rhodesia or their representatives; (2) a representative of India and (3) a representative of the Colonies and Protectorates; further, that the function of the Imperial War Council shall be to co-ordinate action, so far as possible, upon major questions of Imperial policy arising out of the war and in the settlement of the peace; and to move for Papers.
The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I should like first to remind your Lordships very briefly of the history of my Motion to-day. In August of last year the noble Lord, Lord Davies, asked a question of

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His Majesty's Government as to whether they intended to call the Dominion Ministers into conference on matters of common interest connected with the war, and received a reply that the time was not opportune. On October 8 last year, in your Lordships' House, I advocated the setting up of an Imperial War Cabinet by broadening the basis of the existing War Cabinet. The following week, on October 16, the noble Lord, Lord Davies, advocated the establishment of a Supreme War Council upon which the Dominions and India should be represented. In the course of his reply to that, the noble Lord, Lord Snell, Deputy-Leader of the House, emphasized that the question was of surpassing importance, and both to my speech and that of the noble Lord, Lord Davies, he said that we should wait for further information enabling consideration of the matter in greater detail to be made. Five months have elapsed since then, and there has been no public pronouncement of any kind from His Majesty's Government upon this subject, and that is why I have put down my Motion to-day.
This Motion, however, is somewhat differently framed from that on the last occasion, because to-day, instead of asking His Majesty's Government, as I did then, to broaden the basis of the War Cabinet in order to create an Imperial War Council, I am, after further consideration, asking His Majesty's Government, in consultation with the Governments of the Empire, to establish an Imperial War Council on the lines laid down in my Motion. In the last war there was, as in this war, a War Cabinet. This War Cabinet was in frequent session. In addition there was an Imperial War Cabinet which met less frequently, but, as was stated in an official statement issued in August, 1918, it really became active in the last year of the war. It was recorded in that statement that the Imperial War Cabinet had been in continual session for two and a half months, and that all aspects of policy affecting the conduct of the war and the question of peace had been examined by the Prime Ministers of the Empire and other members representative of all its parts. In this war, as in the last war, we have a War Cabinet which sits constantly, but we have got no counterpart of the Imperial War Cabinet which was so valuable in the last war. I submit that the necessity for one in this war is even greater than in the last war.
I am advocating the creation of an Imperial War Council rather than an Imperial War Cabinet, on this occasion, because I believe it is more in keeping with the conditions which at present exist and with the developments in the Empire during the last ten or fifteen years. My noble friend Lord Davies would prefer me to call it a Supreme War Council and I certainly will not quarrel with him over that term, because I should be quite content if it were named a Supreme War Council so long as it achieves, as I believe it probably would achieve, what I have in aim, that is, coordinated co-operation within the Empire on major questions of war policy and of the peace settlement. As I have just said, it seems to me more necessary in this war to have a War Council representative of the Empire than it was in the last war. There is little need for me on this occasion to emphasize the far greater magnitude of the varied and invaluable assistance which has been so freely and voluntarily given by the Dominion Governments, by the Colonies and Protectorates, and by India in this war. These details are well known to your Lordships, but I think I might very briefly mention, and pay tribute to, some of the assistance which has been given by these countries.
I would like to pay tribute to the brilliant and valiant fighting by the Australians, and perhaps in a lesser degree by the New Zealanders, in the victorious campaign in Libya, and also to the glorious part which was played by Indian Forces in the successful battle of Keren in Eritrea under the most adverse and difficult conditions. Then again there has been the wonderful speed and effectiveness with which the South African and Rhodesian Forces have advanced through Italian Somaliland and into Eastern Abyssinia to Diredawa under the skilled leadership of that great soldier and statesman General Smuts, who was so eminent and valuable a member of the Imperial War Cabinet in the last war. These achievements will have renown for long in the annals of our military history. I must refer also to the number and the extent of the war efforts which Canada is making, war efforts of immense importance in the cause for which we are fighting, efforts which arc varied and are of a nature which will, more and more as war proceeds, make a solid impression on the enemy. And there are other reasons why

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I believe an Imperial War Council is more necessary than in the last war. I would point to the much wider area over which this war has spread and consequently to the greater war efforts which are demanded of this country and of the Empire. Then again we have unfortunately been faced with the early capitulation in this war of France, our staunch and faithful Ally in the last war. Through that, no matter for what reason, she has created for us difficulties of such a number and immensity that, but for our grim and unalterable determination to fight on, we might well have been overcome by their weight and complexity.
Lastly, I must instance that to-day, as was not the case in the last war, practically all Europe is under the Nazi heel, whilst in the Far East Hitler has as his accomplice Japan, who plays to his tune and keeps in a constant state of anxiety, turmoil and ferment the Pacific, where several of our Dominions, Colonies and Protectorates have the most vital interests. Indeed, there is no part of the world in which we are not struggling, in one form or another, by military or by diplomatic means, to combat all the Nazi tentacles stretched out in every direction to impose Nazi domination and Nazi rule, and to destroy everywhere freedom, liberty and everything that we believe makes life worth living. If these, then, are the conditions and difficulties with which we as an Empire are confronted, and which we have to surmount in order to achieve victory, how can we hope to do this unless we have machinery and organisation actually in being and ready which will enable the Governments of the Empire, as and when required, to act not only in the closest co-operation but in real unity? I venture to predict that as the war progresses, as peace draws nearer, and when peace comes the problems with which we shall have to deal will grow even more numerous and difficult and urgent. Then will be required for their solution and settlement all the collective wisdom and statesmanship which the Empire can produce.
I may probably be told in reply that there is already sufficiently close cooperation between the Government of this country and the Governments of the Dominions, and that, through daily informal conferences held between the Sec-
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retary of State for the Dominions—who, I am glad to know, will be responding to my Motion—and the High Commissioners, as well as through weekly informal conferences between the High Commissioners themselves, all is done that is required for this purpose. In this connexion, I should-like to pay tribute to the High Commissioners, all of whom are gentlemen most able and distinguished, and naturally held in the highest respect, both in this country and by the Governments they represent. I do not in the least underestimate the value of these informal conferences. They are, and they must be, most valuable, and I do not even suggest that if and when, as I hope it may, an Imperial War Council shall be established these conferences shall be done away with during the time that the Council is not in session. In fact, I hope that they may continue in between times, but I have no hesitation in saying that in the circumstances which I have described these informal conferences do not, and cannot, always go far enough, and they do not, and cannot, achieve the unity of purpose and decision or the results which would be secured by a regularised body of Empire statesmen sitting and acting together under directly responsible conditions.
Moreover (and I mention this with some diffidence in the presence of my noble friend Lord Cecil), there is an obvious disability in the present system, in that the Secretary of State for the Dominions is not a member of the War Cabinet. I venture to suggest that he should be, and I am sure the Dominions would appreciate it if such action were taken. The Secretary of State for the Dominions is, therefore, not always present at the meetings of the War Cabinet, and the information which is received by the High Commissioners from him at the daily conferences must sometimes be third-hand and not even second-hand. That is an unsatisfactory state of affairs. which I am sure your Lordships will agree ought to be remedied.
Let me refer to another point. I frankly confess that when I last spoke on this subject in your Lordships' House I held the view that the Statute of Westminster might form a deterrent to the setting up of such a Council as I have indicated. But since then I have thought the matter over again very carefully, and

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have come to the conclusion that, far from the Statute of Westminster being a deterrent to such a step, it would indeed be helpful. Let me remind your Lordships of the origin of the Statute of Westminster. It was the wish especially on the part of certain of the Dominions to have entire freedom and absolution from any form of control over them from this country. This absolute freedom was conferred upon them by the Statute of Westminster, and I can conceive, and I am sure your Lordships can conceive, of no step, no action on the part of the Mother Country which would in the future deprive them of, or detract from, what was so freely and whole-heartedly given to them under the Statute of Westminster. That it was so readily given is proof of the spirit in which it was given and of the spirit which, for 150 years, has underlain the relationship between Great Britain and her Dependencies. That being so, any participation by the Dominions in important work for the purpose of the better prosecution of the war and the establishment of the subsequent peace would be perfectly free action on their part. It would be the act of free Governments coming and acting together for a common and vital cause, and such a Council could be as freely dissolved, when it had served its purpose, as it had been freely formed.
I visualise that a time may come when the United States of America, whose magnificent material support and collaboration in the war we so greatly need and so warmly welcome and appreciate, might think it desirable and useful to have representation on such a Council in order to co-ordinate action amongst the English-speaking peoples and democracies. It is certain that after the war the British Empire and the United States alone will possess between them the requisite combination of power, prestige and resources to maintain world peace and to help to restore world order out of world chaos. Indeed, it would not be altogether as inopportune as it might seem to invite President Roosevelt to nominate a representative to the Imperial War Council. Morally, it would be a notable gesture of recognition of America's part in the fight for democracy; and economically it would enormously help America in her efforts to assist the Empire's war needs. Constitutionally it would provide a striking lead to the Governments of the Empire,
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whilst to the world at large it would be signal proof of the solidarity and determination of the English-speaking peoples to fight and to achieve victory over tyranny.
Finally, let me say that there is not a single one of our Dominions, Colonies or Protectorates—and in this acknowledgment I of course gladly include India, now on the verge of Dominion status— that has not voluntarily and readily, and even eagerly, ranged herself alongside the Mother Country in her fight to overcome the onslaught of the Nazi tyrant and of the German and Italian peoples. I am not a lone voice in my advocacy of an Empire War Council. There are echoes of it in the Dominions from those who feel that their Governments' participation in the War Councils of the Empire is not commensurate with their war effort. So I venture to suggest to His Majesty's Governments, both here and in the Dominions, that this is a matter that cannot lightly be set aside and that sooner or later public opinion in all parts of the Empire will demand this fulfilment as the only direct way of shouldering the common burdens and of reaping the full benefit of the immense sacrifices which we are all making, and which we still have to make, in order to secure victory and win the peace. I beg to move for Papers.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: My Lords, I feel sure that the whole House will sympathise with the purpose which the noble Viscount opposite had in mind in placing this Motion on the Paper. In the first place, we all agree with what he said as to our full recognition of and admiration for the unstinted efforts of the whole overseas Empire—the great Dominions, India, and the Colonial Empire—in playing their full part and in casting all their energies into the resistance to the aggression from which all the rest of the world is suffering. That being so, it is natural that the noble Viscount should seek a method of closer concerted action between all the component parts of the Empire.
As we all know, there is no precedent in history for the overseas Empire, the wide Dominions which owe allegiance to the British Crown. If you go back a hundred years, there was then a proposition that representatives of the Colonies might sit in both Houses of Parliament, on the principle which until recently ob

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tained in the French Senate and the French Chamber of Deputies. Later on, fifty or sixty years ago, the hope of a system of Imperial federation was entertained by many thoughtful people, but i was found that the difficulties of forming any kind of Central Congress parallel to that which exists in the United States, and also the widely entertained objection to anything like a Customs union, made such a notion of Imperial federation the opposite of feasible; and, as the years went on, it became more and more evident that the great English-speaking Dominions were far more set upon managing their own affairs in their own way and in taking their own line.
I recall the Imperial Conference which took place in 1909, when I was Colonial Secretary, and therefore concerned with the affairs of the whole of the overseas Empire with the exception of India; and I remember that at that time some surprise was expressed here at the fixed determination of one or two of the Dominion Ministers that it should be asserted that they were not expected to take part in any war in which the British Government might engage unless they desired to do so. As I say, surprise was expressed in some quarters at that pro position, but we saw at once that it was a reasonable demand for the Dominions to make, because we felt full confidence that, if they believed our cause to be just, they would be the very first to come forward to support it; and so it has proved. In every difficulty in which this country has been involved, the support of the whole Empire has been forthcoming. Even in the autumn of 1922, when we were on the verge of starting a fresh war with Turkey in circumstances which aroused great criticism both here and all over the Empire, the Dominion Governments did not actually withhold their support, although they were not specially anxious to offer it, and explained that they must obtain the sanction of their own Parliaments before taking part. They in no way declined their support, however. Then, as the culmination, came the Statute of Westminster, of which the noble Viscount has spoken.
That being so, it is in no way surprising that the noble Viscount considers that the formation of such an Imperial Council as he suggests would be a fair tribute
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on our part to the assistance which the Empire has rendered to us during so many years; and it is true, of course, that any co-operation which we can receive from statesmen both in the great Dominions and in other parts of the Empire is most highly welcomed here. As the noble Viscount stated, the presence of Mr. Menzies is felt to be in itself a strengthening fact to His Majesty's Government here, and such help, by advice and encouragement, as he is able to give undoubtedly enforces the decisions which His Majesty's Government are able to make. But at the same time I think we have to ask ourselves whether the formal creation of such an Imperial Council, although it would be regarded as a representative authority defining the different sections of which the Empire is composed, would in itself contribute to efficient and prompt action in the carrying on of the war. Would it lead to a speedier combination of the different minds brought to bear on the complicated problems of carrying on the war at this moment? I confess I have doubts in that regard. It seems to me that the creation of such a body, holding periodical meetings and carrying on prolonged argumentative discussion, could hardly tend to speedier solutions of the difficult problems of the moment. I should fear that there would be an increasing tendency to refer for instructions and for agreement many different questions to the various Governments which would be involved all over the world, and that the general effect would be somewhat to slow down the action of Governments in matters in which rapid decision may be of the essence of securing victory.
I should like also to know whether the creation of a formal body of this kind has been seriously demanded from any part of the Empire, either from one of the great Dominions or from any other part. If such a demand were made no doubt it would greatly affect the decision upon which His Majesty's Government will have to arrive. I await therefore the statement which will be made from the Front Bench on the general question which the noble Viscount has raised, being aware that the Government are in possession of facts governing the position at the moment which cannot be known to the country at large. In saying this I am far from suggesting that a little later

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on the formation of a body of this kind may not be absolutely necessary.
The noble Viscount's Question concludes with the statement:
"that the function of the Imperial War Council shall be to co-ordinate action, so far as possible, upon major questions of Imperial policy arising out of the war and in the settlement of the peace."
That I fully understand, but it is hardly possible that at this moment such a Council, supposing it to exist, could refrain from stating its opinions upon questions, not of the future but of the present moment. Therefore I should suggest to the noble Viscount that, although he has expressed regret that this question has been incubated for so long a period as five months, he will permit the eggs to be sat on for a still longer-period; and if at a suitable time he raises the question again I feel certain that His Majesty's Government will be able to speak of it with more immediate sympathy than I have felt it possible to do. For all I know they may be prepared to do so now, but I hope the noble Viscount will forgive me for having expressed my opinion that a still longer period of delay will be to the advantage of the country.
LORD CHATFIELD: My Lords, I do not wish to detain the House more than a few minutes because I know your Lordships are waiting to hear a very important debate which is to follow. There arc two points raised by the noble Viscount in his Motion. One is that we should set up an Imperial War Council to prosecute the war; and, secondly, that that same body should continue so as to carry us over in our Imperial mentality from war to peace. As regards the first part of the Motion, the noble Marquess has put his finger on the weak spot— namely, whether it would really help to improve our conduct of the war. While endorsing all that the noble Viscount and the noble Marquess have said as regards the wonderful debt we owe to our Dominions and our Colonies for all they have done, I cannot help thinking that to set up an Imperial War Council now would not really contribute to speedy decision, or speedy action, or help us to get victory any sooner.
It must be remembered that since the last war we have set up an organisation which is called the Chiefs of Staff Committee, which has under it a vast organi-
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sation that is able to advise the Minister of Defence, who is fortunately now also the Prime Minister, as regards strategy. That body, which consists of the Prime Minister and the three Chiefs of Staff, and which meets daily, seems to be far the best organisation you could have to advise the War Cabinet as a whole on how our strategy shall be carried out. We cannot but say that the results achieved by the present organisation have been exceedingly satisfactory. Especially do we feel that at this particular moment.
But when we come to the second part of the Motion, there I hope His Majesty's Government will give more thought to that question as to how they are going to carry over our military problems from war to peace, because anyone who, like myself, has served for nearly thirteen years on the Board of Admiralty, and who during that time has had to, fight continually for money for the defence of this Empire, must realise more fully than most the weak points which have existed in our Imperial Defence organisation. The Committee of Imperial Defence has not been the safeguard it should have been. It is only an advisory body, and it has no authority and no right to cross-question any of the decisions that are made as regards the Service Estimates. So we have found Governments dipping into our Imperial Defence insurance money for other and more popular purposes.
This is not the time, as the noble Marquess has said, to go into details of that nature, but I should like to remind your Lordships that it is when one's house is on fire and before the firemen have saved it that one feels most strongly his foolishness in not having properly insured the house. This is the time when our thoughts naturally turn to that, and this is the time when we should begin thinking how we are going to prevent these things ever happening again. Therefore I endorse that part of the noble Viscount's Motion where he advocates that there should be Imperial consideration given in good time, not when the Peace Marches are taking place and everything is being forgotten, but before we are out of the wood. Let us set up some inquiry to consider how we are going to be wiser in future and prevent the mistakes that have been made ever putting us into the same hazardous position again.
LORD GIFFORD: My Lords, I have listened with great interest to the remarks of the noble Viscount, Lord Elibank, and at first sight his proposal seems an interesting and attractive one. I should have liked very much to support it, but I feel that there is one grave difficulty which cannot be got over, and that is, if this War Council is formed, how far could the representative of a particular Dominion or Colony speak with authority for his Government? I submit to your Lordships that that would be in many cases impossible, and we might even have the very difficult situation arising of something which has been said by the representative of a particular Dominion being afterwards repudiated by the Government of that Dominion. Therefore it is with great regret I cannot support the noble Viscount's Motion, especially as I have been a great deal in the Dominions and have the greatest sympathy with their aspirations. There is, however, one suggestion I should like to make—namely, that while I do not feel it is practicable to have an Imperial War Council with regular representatives of every Dominion and Colony—
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: I did not say a representative of every Colony. If the noble Lord will look at my Motion, he will see it refers to a representative of the Colonies and Protectorates collectively.
LORD GIFFORD: I beg the noble Viscount's pardon. I should like to put forward a suggestion to His Majesty's Government that they should seriously consider, where some brilliant man from the Dominions is available, whether they might include him as an individual in the War Cabinet. That, as your Lordships know, was done in the last war, and I can think of one or two very fine men, known to us all, who might be considered for a similar position now.
LORD DAVIES: My Lords, perhaps I may be allowed to make a few observations on the Motion which has been moved by my noble friend Lord Elibank, because as long ago as last August I called the attention of the House to this important matter. The reply of the Government at that time, about nine months ago, was that they would certainly welcome such discussions if occasion offered. One would imagine that since that date there have been many occasions when an Imperial War Council might have been
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held with advantage to co-ordinate the ever-increasing war effort of the British Commonwealth and to survey the whole range of British policy. Recently, as my noble friend has already told us, some progress has been made, and Mr. Menzies, the Australian Prime Minister, has accepted the invitation of the British Government to be a member of the War Cabinet during his stay in this country. I believe an invitation has been addressed to the Prime Minister of New Zealand to pay a visit to this country, and I presume that he also will be invited to join in the discussions of the War Cabinet.
I submit that the attitude of the Government in regard to the creation of an Imperial War Council is not clear. It is somewhat obscure and ambiguous because, in another place, as recently as last December, it was stated that "the Prime Minister does not contemplate adding representatives of the Dominions to the War Cabinet at the present time." This reply was quoted by the Prime Minister of Canada in a debate in the Canadian House of Commons on February 17. which gave the impression that the Government here did not desire to constitute an Imperial War Council. Could the noble Lord who replies on behalf of the Government tell us what is their considered policy? Do they or do they not as far as they are concerned wish that such a body should be constituted as part of our administrative machinery for the conduct of the war and preparation for the peace? I would, therefore, venture to plead for clarification so as to remove any misapprehension which may exist.
In the debate to which I have alluded in the Canadian Parliament, Mr. Mackenzie King dealt at some length with the proposal for an Imperial War Council; and may I be allowed to quote a few extracts from his speech? He said:
"We are engaged in the war, as partners in a joint enterprise. If our effort is to fit into the efforts of the other British nations to produce a strong unified whole, our plans must be made in consultation with them."
Then again:
"The imposing title—Imperial War Council —undoubtedly has for many a special appeal. An Imperial War Council composed of the Prime Ministers of the Dominions and the British Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs and presided over by the Prime Minister of Great Britain would, in fact, be an imposing body. … It suggests, too, opportunities for

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"direct and intimate conference in the shaping of a common policy for the prosecution of the war in which the whole Commonwealth has so vital a concern. … A moment may come when it will be both desirable and necessary for a conference of the kind to be held in London or some other part of the British Empire."
Mr. Mackenzie King then went on to say:
"The proposal can best be judged by one simple test. Is it the most effective means of achieving the desired end? It is true that there is nothing imposing about the means which are employed. It may nevertheless be said that at this very time such a Council exists in reality though it has no visible form."
Then he goes on to describe the invisible form in these words:
"There are thus, so to speak, three sending and three receiving sources, through each of which special classes of communications are sent and received. (A) From Prime Minister to Prime Minister direct, those which relate to matters of high policy. (B) Through the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs to the Secretary of State for External Affairs and vice versa. Matters more general in character and relating more particularly to information in detail on operations and the progress of the war. (C) And finally, special communications supplementing those from the sources mentioned, from the High Commissioner to the Prime Minister, or to the Secretary of State for External Affairs, and vice versa. I doubt indeed if a more efficient arrangement could possibly be made."
The Canadian Prime Minister then alluded to visits which have been undertaken by Canadian Ministers to this country, which he said
"have been of the greatest assistance to the Government in co-ordinating our war effort to the war effort of the United Kingdom."
Perhaps it may be impertinent on my part to point out that on the face of it these arrangements seem to be somewhat complicated, and might possibly with advantage be reduced to some I simpler form. However this may be, I think there will be general agreement that telephonic and wireless communications regarding questions of high policy between individual Prime Ministers are no substitute for discussion around the Council table where each has an opportunity of hearing the views of his colleagues and of assisting in formulating a common policy, such, for example, as the attitude of the Commonwealth towards the antics of Vichy, the tightening of the blockade, our relationships with Eire, and the use of the Atlantic ports. May I give another example to which I ventured to allude in a previous debate in this House? There
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was the question of the closing of the Burma road. Now when the Canadian Prime Minister was asked whether his advice had been sought on this subject, his reply was that he
"had not been asked for advice, that no advice had been given, and no comment had been made."
The point, therefore, I would venture to emphasize is that bilateral communications are not an effective substitute for collective discussion out of which emerges a carefully considered and agreed policy.
Then there is, of course, the argument which has already been suggested here this afternoon that the proper place for the Dominion Prime Ministers is at home where they can be in constant touch with their own Cabinets. Mr. Mackenzie King laid great emphasis on this point. This is what he said:
"It affords the Prime Minister of each of the Dominions the opportunity of discussing immediately with his colleagues in his own Cabinet all aspects of every question raised."
This is collective discussion at home which I respectfully submit can be undertaken as a preliminary to collective discussion in the Imperial War Council. I do not think anyone suggests that the Dominion Prime Ministers should reside permanently in London or anywhere else for the duration of the war. The Imperial War Council need not be in permanent session any more than the Supreme War Council of the Allies was during the last war. To-day, however, there are not only telephonic communications but new facilities for rapid travelling which did not exist twenty years ago, and which make it possible for Dominion Prime Ministers or their representatives to attend meetings of an Imperial War Council. The journey is no longer a matter of weeks but of days. I remember that at school a favourite topic of debate used to be: "Is woman's proper place at home?". I think most of us agreed that as a general rule it was; but we also felt that on occasion she could be engaged more usefully elsewhere. That I believe is the answer to the stay-at-home argument.
Lastly, there is the psychological factor. This is what the Canadian Prime Minister described as the imposing body which will make its appeal to every citizen of the British Commonwealth. As he has reminded us, the simple test

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is what is the most effective means of achieving the desired end. I believe that the desired end, to win the war and to win the peace, can best be achieved in the closest collaboration between the English-speaking peoples through some visible, not invisible, body constituted as I have already suggested in the first instance by the democracies of the British Commonwealth. Such a body will strengthen their morale and express their united determination to prosecute this war to a victorious conclusion.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DOMINION AFFAIRS (LORD CECIL) (Viscount Cranborne): My Lords, I am sure that the House has listened with the greatest interest to the debate that is now drawing to a close. The Government certainly have no reason to complain of the noble Viscount having raised this question, for clearly, as he himself said, it is of the very first importance, not only from the point of view of our war effort but from the point of view of the future of the British Commonwealth of Nations, that at this particular and severe crisis in our history there should be the closest possible co-operation between Great Britain and the Dominions overseas. My only doubt as I listened to his speech was whether even now the noble Viscount fully realises how close and constant that collaboration already is. He referred to one channel of communication, the daily interviews which I have with the Dominion High Commissioners, but there are not merely one channel but three channels of communication. There are first of all the United Kingdom High Commissioners in the Dominions who are in the closest possible contact both with the Dominion Prime Ministers and with the Dominion Governments.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: May I be allowed to interrupt? Does that mean that the High Commissioner in Canada, Mr. Malcolm MacDonald, has not gone there under the same conditions as the late High Commissioner in an industrial capacity, but that he will be looking after political and diplomatic questions as well?
LORD CECIL: That is not a true account of the functions of the High Commissioner in a Dominion. He communicates with the Dominion Government on any question on which His Majesty's Gov-
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ernment may wish to have communication. He is hot confined in any way to purely industrial functions, and never has been. To these High Commissioners go every day a stream of telegrams giving the latest information of the progress of events in the war. They also, of course, have the task of taking up with the Dominion Governments any questions which in the view of His Majesty's Government are better handled at the Dominions end. That is the first channel of communication. The second is the Dominion High Commissioners here in London. They perform, of course, to a great extent the same functions with regard to any matters which in the view of their Government are better dealt with and raised here on the spot in London. They are also in the very closest contact possible both with the Dominions Office and with the other offices of State.
I attach, personally, the very greatest importance to my daily contacts with the High Commissioners. I think they are an essential point of liaison between the Government here and the Dominions. I see the High Commissioners every day of the week, and I should be seeing them at this moment if it were not for this debate. I see them also, when the situation demands it, every week-end. I give them all the latest information—confidential, official information—on the international situation, and I also keep them in touch with the decisions and deliberations of the Government and the War Cabinet on matters affecting the Dominions. I would say in passing that it is not quite true to say I do not attend the meetings of the War Cabinet. It is true I am not a member of the War Cabinet, but I attend the meetings for the very reason which the noble Viscount himself stated, that so alone am I able to keep the Dominions in the closest possible touch with events. I would like to take the opportunity of saying how very useful I believe these meetings to be and how very deeply indebted I am to the Dominion High Commissioners for their constant help and collaboration. As your Lordships will appreciate, these day-to-day contacts are of the first importance to ensure that every development of the international situation is passed direct to the Dominion Governments. Moreover, I often receive personal suggestions from the High Commissioners of the utmost value which I

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am able to pass on to the Cabinet or to the Departments concerned.
Finally, there is the direct channel of communication, from Prime Minister to Prime Minister, or else from myself to my opposite numbers in the Dominions. That is, of course, the normal channel for the communication of information and views on matters of common concern between the various sections of the British Commonwealth, and it affords a valuable background for the closer personal contact which the High Commissioners themselves are able to maintain.
These three channels, which I have very briefly described, do, I think, provide a full and complete system of liaison between the Home Government and the Dominion Governments. In addition, superimposed upon that system, there are the frequent visits of Dominion Ministers to this country. During the comparatively short period that I have had the good fortune to be at the Dominions Office there have been several of these visits. Last October there was a visit from Mr. Gardiner, the Canadian Minister for Agriculture, and early this year, as your Lordships will know, we had visits from Colonel Ralston, the Canadian Minister of Defence, and Mr. C. D. Howe, the Canadian Minister of Munitions. On the occasion of these visits discussions of very real value took place between representatives of the two Governments. Further we have now, as your Lordships will be aware, a visit by Mr. R. G. Menzies, the Prime Minister of the Commonwealth of Australia. We are very glad, everybody is very glad, to welcome him to this country after a long and very adventurous journey in which, I believe, he visited every unit of the Australian troops in the Army of the Nile.
Since he has been here he has taken his full part as a Dominion Prime Minister in the deliberations of the War Cabinet, and has had numerous—I might almost say innumerable—meetings with members of the Government and their expert advisers. He has also had the opportunity of visiting our industrial centres and districts which have suffered very heavily from bombing. I am quite sure he will take back to Australia, when he goes back as he will very shortly, a complete picture of our war effort and of the situation as it now presents itself. His
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Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom have had the great advantage of personal contact and consultation with him. We have derived very real benefit from the exchanges of views which have taken place.
I would also remind your Lordships of the conversations which have taken place lately between General Smuts and the Foreign Secretary in the Middle East. Anyone who knows that great soldier-statesman will realise how immensely valuable those discussions have proved to be. Finally, I am glad to confirm what has been already stated that Mr. Fraser, the Prime Minister of New Zealand, at the invitation of His Majesty's Government, hopes shortly to come on a visit to this country. We look forward very greatly to the opportunity for consultation and exchange of views which his visit will afford, and no doubt he will attend the War Cabinet in the same way that Mr. Menzies has done. The importance of these visits of Dominion Ministers cannot, in my view, be overestimated. Not only does it enable them to clear up outstanding and obstinate points which must arise at all times between two Governments but it enables them also to assess the situation on the spot, and when they go back to their own countries they can speak with personal experience and authority. I gather that the noble Viscount, Lord Elibank, suggests that this present machinery of Imperial collaboration should be extended still further by the formation of an Imperial War Council with representatives from every Dominion and collective representation of the Colonies and one for India. This Council, would, as I understand him, remain in permanent session.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, if I may be forgiven for interrupting, what I meant to convey was that that Council should sit from time to time and later on perhaps a great deal more, while in the meantime this machinery of informal conferences should continue.
LORD CECIL: I need not say that His Majesty's Government are, of course, heartily in favour, in principle, of anything which is likely to lead to closer collaboration between the various sections of the British Commonwealth. But I hardly think that at the present moment the particular proposal which the noble Viscount has in mind would be practically

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possible. It would involve each Dominion seconding for duty here a very important Minister—for he would have to be a very important Minister—who could ill be spared from his own country. Nor could such a Minister, however important, as my noble friend Lord Gifford has already said, take decisions over the head of his own Government. Every decision that was taken by this sort of Council would have to be a decision ad referendum. In fact, the Council would be an Imperial War Council only in name. Moreover, these Dominion representatives, valuable though they would be, would, I think, tend to a certain extent to get out of touch with affairs in their own home countries, and to that extent their value would be minimised. I do suggest that, at any rate for the present, and having regard to the present stage of the war, the existing arrangements reinforced, as they are at frequent intervals, by visits of Dominion Ministers is the most valuable and useful method of managing our affairs.
On the other hand, there are circumstances and situations in which conferences with Dominion Prime Ministers could be of the utmost value. A point, for instance, may be reached in the war when we are able to look a little more into the future than we can at the present time and at such a moment an Imperial Conference might not only be important but essential. Up to now, for reasons which your Lordships' House appreciates, in the view of the Government that moment has not yet come. But should the situation so alter as to make it possible to hold a conference of this kind I can assure the House that the Government would most heartily welcome it. In the meantime, I hope that your Lordships will not fall into the illusion of thinking that the present system works badly. It does not; it works very well. The noble Marquess, Lord Crewe, asked whether there had been any demand from any Dominion Government for alteration in the system. We have had no request, intimation or demand of any kind. I have seen no communication from any Dominion Government implying that a change is desirable. On the contrary, all that I have heard from the Dominion Governments has indicated their satisfaction with the present situation.
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Lord Davies drew attention to a speech made by Mr. Mackenzie King on the 17th of February this year. I got a faint impression, listening to him, that he thought that Mr. Mackenzie King was in favour of an Imperial War Council at the present time. If he would look again at the Official Report for that day the noble Lord would see that Mr. Mackenzie King came to exactly the opposite conclusion. As the noble Lord has quoted portions of the speech I would like to read these two short paragraphs:
"At the present time there are means of effective communication and consultation in all matters pertaining to the war, much more comprehensive than anything which existed during the last war. I doubt, indeed, if a more efficient arrangement could possibly be made. The real but invisible Imperial Council made possible by these means of constant and instantaneous conference has one all-important advantage which would be denied to an Imperial War Council sitting in London. It affords the Prime Minister of each of the Dominions the opportunity of discussing immediately with his colleagues in his own Cabinet all aspects of every question raised. His expression of view, when given, is not. his alone—it is the expression of view of the Cabinet of which he is the head. It is an expression of view given by the Cabinet in the light of its responsibility to Parliament. It is, moreover, an expression of view given in the atmosphere, not of London, but of the Dominion itself,"
LORD DAVIES: My Lords, if the noble Lord will forgive me, I would like to point out that I did quote a part of the passage from Mr. Mackenzie King's speech which he has just read. I also quoted other parts from which it is to be inferred that the Canadian Prime Minister realised that there are certain advantages which may accrue from an Imperial War Council.
LORD CECIL: The noble Lord will forgive me, I hope, but my complaint was that he quoted a portion of the passage and not the whole of it. Any noble Lord who will read that speech will see that Mr. Mackenzie King gives, as is to be expected from a statesman with his immense knowledge and experience, an accurate and clear description of the present position. So far as His Majesty's Government here are concerned, we shall continue to keep the Dominions in the very closest touch with events, and the Dominion Governments know very well already that His Majesty's Government here in England are very glad of any comments or any suggestions that they may wish to make. The position is, at the

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present time and always, under constant review and, should the war situation so develop as to make a conference of the kind that has been suggested possible, noble Lords may be certain that His Majesty's Government will take immediate steps to pursue the matter. Till then we shall warmly welcome the visits of individual Dominion Ministers. The more who come the better we shall be pleased.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, first of all, I should like to thank the noble Lord for his courteous reply to the Motion and I should like to say that I am not disappointed in it. I did not expect very much more than we have heard, but I did receive the satisfaction of hearing that the door is still open. As there is another debate to follow, I will conclude by thanking those noble Lords who have taken part in this debate and will adopt the suggestion of the noble Marquess, Lord Crewe, who has great experience and wisdom in these matters, to allow the subject to incubate. I will raise it again at another date and in the meantime beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

WAR WORK OF SCIENTISTS.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL rose VISCOUNT SAMUEL rose to ask His Majesty's Government whether they can make any statement on the extent to which the assistance of scientists has been enlisted in the prosecution of the war; and to move for Papers. The noble Viscount said: My Lords, this House is fortunate in having on its Ministerial Bench the presence of the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. That office is not an onerous one, as I know from experience, and allows plenty of scope for the activities of an energetic Minister. One of the functions which have been conferred upon Lord Hankey is to act as Chairman of the Scientific Advisory Committee of the War Cabinet, and it is in that capacity that I am inviting him today to make such statement as he can to the House and to the country on the activities of that organisation, so far as he can do so without detriment to the public interest—for, of course, many of these matters are highly secret. I have, in the Notice which I have put upon the Paper, added the usual formula of a re-
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quest for Papers; but there is nothing that I should desire less than that the Motion should be accepted, and that Papers should be presented!
To some, the whole subject is distasteful. There are some minds who regard science as the villain of the present age; they see the horrors of the warfare which, is all around us, and they lament that we should not be free from science altogether. If time allowed, and your Lordships' patience permitted, I should endeavour to give a reply to that charge; it is a fascinating subject. But, whatever views may be held on that fundamental issue, this much at least is certain, that if one philosophy of life enlisted science in its support, and the opposite philosophy repudiated or neglected it, when the matter came to open conflict the issue could not be in doubt. If here in this country we had no science, and if in Germany science was highly developed, then we should already in this war have been beaten and conquered; and if with us science had in the previous generations been carried to an even higher degree than it has, then perhaps there would have been less anxiety than has prevailed. Your Lordships will all agree, therefore, that this subject is not some side-issue and a matter for prigs and pedants, but in the conduct of the war it is the very essence of the whole issue.
If I had been moving this Motion six months ago, it would have been my duty to have done so in a very critical spirit. At that time there was much dissatisfaction at the degree to which science had been neglected; and, particularly among the younger men of science in the country, it was felt that most useful services were being ignored and left aside. Since then, although much remains to be done, undoubtedly great progress has been made, and one does not hear that somewhat bitter criticism which prevailed in the earlier stages of the war. Of course, before the war and from its beginning, in certain aspects great activity was shown. We have the best aeroplanes in the world largely because of the researches of the pure scientist, and the applications made of them by the practical scientist. The new science of aerodynamics has been carried to a very high point at the National Physical Laboratory at Teddington, one of the most valuable institutions in this country and elsewhere. Our

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system of air defence depends very largely not only upon our fighter aircraft but also on the Observer Corps; and the efficiency of the Observer Corps depends wholly upon the instruments with which they have been supplied by the scientist.
Again, the campaign against the U-boats has been to a large extent effective because of the marvellous devices of detection which have been provided by our science. The efficiency of our tanks, exhibited so spendidly in the Libyan campaign, is largely due to the perfection of their metallurgy and of their internal mechanism. If Hitler, when he spoke of the "secret weapon to which there was no answer," meant the magnetic mine, our scientists again found a very speedy answer. Continually all these weapons of war and of defence have been perfected. The noble Lord, the Minister for Aircraft Production, to whom the nation cannot be too grateful for the energy and the success which he has brought to his Department—he is himself a personification of aerodynamics, occasionally, perhaps, producing mild tornados—told us the other day that one of our new aircraft had been equipped with an engine six feet in length which developed as much horse-power as the locomotive of the "Royal Scot" train.
Again, in another province the science of nutrition has made great advances, and has given most useful guidance to the Ministry of Food and to the nation at large; and in some respects agriculture also has benefited by the applications of science, although here it must be confessed that the nation is somewhat backward. I cannot doubt but that fifty years hence our present systems of agriculture will be regarded as somewhat crude. I remember hearing not long ago the President of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons declare that the failure to prevent or to treat cattle disease alone involved this country in a loss of the order of £20,000,000 a year, besides having a most prejudicial effect upon the volume of the milk supply.
A few months ago a little sixpenny book was published in the "Pelican" series with the title Science in War. It was the work of a group of some twenty of the younger scientists, some of them, however, men with national reputations. In
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that book much stricture was passed upon the backwardness of British agriculture in the adoption of scientific methods; and the declaration was specifically made that if science were fully used in the development and fertilisation of our soil it would be quite possible for this island to produce enough of the essential foodstuffs to maintain the whole of our population. If that is correct, it is a very important point for the future; for, if that could be achieved, it would remedy the weakest point in the. strategic position of this country and this Empire.
There is now a voluntary Committee of the two Houses, the Parliamentary and Scientific Committee, of which some twenty members of your Lordships' House are members, which devotes itself to keeping track of all these matters, and to exercising a friendly stimulus upon the various Government Departments where that seems to be needed, and which is ready to offer help where help is desired. That Committee contains representatives, of all the chief chemical and engineering industries and other industries based upon practical science. There are also at work the two Research Councils of the Department of Agriculture, and the Medical Research Council, of which the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Burleigh, has long been Chairman; and there is, of course, the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research. None too soon, the Government have established the Committee of which the noble Lord, Lord Hankey, is Chairman, to co-ordinate all the various activities in the sphere of science of the various Departments of Government—to co-ordinate and to stimulate; that is the Scientific Advisory Committee of the War Cabinet. It has a strong personnel and it is fortunate in its Chairman, whose keenness and tact and long experience of the working of government are invaluable in that office. He not only knows the ropes but he is also able to pull the wires and to get things done; and he walks with a sure tread along paths where the scientific professor would be bewildered and lost. I have reason to know that the members of his Committee very greatly appreciate his leadership.
I would ask him in his reply to answer these few questions, but I will make them as brief as possible, for it is his speech for which the House is waiting. First of all with regard to the word "scientist"

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—the class of people whom the Government are enlisting in their war effort. The Council of the Institute of Chemistry has communicated with the Parliamentary and Scientific Committee to which I have referred, and other representations have also been made from authoritative quarters, expressing the view that some of the Government Departments at least take too narrow a view of the word "scientist," that they concentrate too much upon professors from universities and the like; and the suggestion is made that industrial men of science ought to be more frequently employed—chemists and physicists who are actually engaged in industry or in practice as consultants. There are many men, it is thought, of great merit and ability who if they do not hold some conspicuous position are liable to be overlooked, and have in fact been overlooked. Therefore they urge that there should be a clearer and a wider definition of the word "scientist" in this connection, and that the services of men with scientific training and experience who are engaged in practical affairs should be utilised even more frequently than they are to-day.
Secondly, the criticism is sometimes made that the scientists in the Government Departments are occasionally not sufficiently in touch with actual operations, whether military, or industrial, or agricultural, or whatever it may be—that there is not a sufficiency of direct contact. Scientists are often introduced into Government Departments in order to stimulate the bureaucracy, but it is sometimes found that after a month or two, or a year or two, they themselves, become bureaucratised. And this tendency is made more marked because very frequently their work is highly secret and they are therefore unable to maintain full contact with other quarters. Perhaps the noble Lord the Chancellor of the Duchy may be able to say something on the steps being taken by the Government in order to secure adequate and continuous contact between the scientists within the Departments and the people engaged in actual operations.
My next question is to ask him what progress has been made—no doubt he will be saying something on that subject—in research on the effects of bombing, the great new feature of modern warfare: the effect upon the human body and the effect upon buildings. Further efforts, we,
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know, are being made to co-ordinate national and international scientific-work, and particularly is this so between this country and the United States of America. The House and the country have cordially welcomed the mission of Dr. Conant, the President of Harvard. Americans are always welcome in this country—and Harvard especially has close ties with our universities—but never are they more welcome than at this moment, when the whole nation is filled with a sense of gratitude for American support; and especially since the missioner is Dr. Conant, who has taken so leading a part in rousing his own countrymen to the gravity and the true meaning of the issue. Can the noble Lord tell us what has been the outcome of that mission and what steps are being taken to secure co-ordination as complete as may be between American and British science in the prosecution of the war? And again, what use is being made of the great reservoir of talent which has been recruited from abroad through the influx of the refugees from religious and political persecution? This war in which the liberties of all mankind are at stake, and which is fought for the rescue also of the soul of Germany, is one which should enlist the sympathies of all men of scientific spirit and ability, no matter from what nationality they have originally come.
And then, further, with regard to the task of reconstruction to which the nation is now addressing its mind, and on which we had an interesting debate in this House a few weeks ago, how far is the aid of science being enlisted there? We have a Cabinet Committee presided over by Mr. Greenwood, the Minister without Portfolio. May I say in parenthesis that I hope it will not be long before we get rid of that absurd Continental title and devise a better name than Minister without Portfolio? I have never known a Minister in this country with Portfolio, and how can a title be used which simply expresses the absence of something which is non-existent? We have also the new Ministry of Works and Buildings established, and these two bodies have now a most important duty to perform in preparing the way for the events which will follow when the war is over. Town and country planning is developing a science of its own, and it is only in its infancy,

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but it needs encouragement and nurture in order that it may develop with sufficient rapidity to cope with the task which will devolve upon it when the war is over. There must be research in the lay-out of cities and in methods of building, and there again this country has been somewhat backward. There are, of course, agencies for research in building methods, but they are at present inadequate, and they cannot be quickly improvised. These are matters that should be studied now well in advance, and I trust that steps are being taken in that direction. Further, they should also be international in their scope for, while we wish to preserve in our architecture and in our towns general national characteristics, there are many achievements elsewhere that may be of great interest and value for adoption here.
I was fortunate for many years in having a close friendship with the late Graham Wallas, one of the most original and fertile of practical thinkers. When Wallas was a member of a Royal Commission on the Civil Service years ago, the Macdonnell Commission, he made a proposal, which was not favoured by his colleagues but which may deserve to be revived and perhaps adopted now. It was that with a view to securing the fullest knowledge of methods all over the world and the growth of knowledge elsewhere our Embassies should have as Attachés and not only Military and Naval and Air Attachés, and not only representatives of commerce and of the Press, but also Science Attachés. It would be of immense and obvious advantage if our international machinery made provision for the collection of information systematically on the developments of science in all spheres in other countries of the world. I throw out that suggestion without expecting an immediate reply in the hope that it will receive consideration as opportunity offers. These are the only points I desire to lay before the House. We shall await with keen anticipation whatever statement the noble Lord is able to make without detriment to the public interest on a matter which is of vital importance to the prosecution of the war. I beg to move for Papers.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER (LORD HANKEY): My Lords, I wish to thank the noble Vis-
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count for his helpful, suggestive, and understanding speech, and for giving me an opportunity to explain to the House what the present system is for the harnessing of scientific research to our war effort. The present position has been built up on foundations well and truly laid before the war. The three great pillars of scientific research on the civilian side were the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, the Medical Research Council, and the Agricultural Research Council. Their sole function was the study of scientific problems and the giving of scientific advice. They are all responsible to the Lord President, who is Chairman of the three Committees of the Privy Council under whose general direction they respectively work. The three Departments work in very close association. The administrative heads, who are officially known as the Secretaries, meet constantly together to discuss their common problems. They have set up joint committees on matters of mutual interest, and they constantly meet on all kinds of committees, including the Scientific Advisory Committee. I do not think that contact could really be any closer. On the military side the Departments concerned before the war were the Admiralty, the Ministry of Supply, the Air Ministry—whose responsibilities for research have since been passed on to the Ministry of Aircraft Production—and the Ministry of Home Security, which is a halfway-house between the Service Departments and the Civil Departments. In addition there was quite a good bit of research in the Civil Departments.
Before I come to the development of the system in times of war, I want to refer to the establishment of the Scientific Advisory Committee. It was exactly six months ago, almost to a day, that the late Mr. Neville Chamberlain, who was then Lord President of the Council, with the approval of the Prime Minister, set up a Scientific Advisory Committee. It was the last official act of his career. He had given great thought to it. At the last meeting at which I saw him, when he asked me to become the Chairman, he spoke of it with infectious enthusiasm, and I think it is a very remarkable instance of his far-sighted patriotism. My colleagues and I are at one in hoping that the Committee will prove a worthy monument to its distinguished founder.

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As I am going to draw a good deal on my experience with the Committee, I had better begin by explaining its status. Apart from the Chairman, the members are the President of the Royal Society and the two joint secretaries of the Royal Society, the secretaries of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, the Medical Research Council, and the Agricultural Research Council. I am sorry to say that Sir Edwin Butler, secretary of the last-named body, had to retire through ill-health shortly after we started, but we have had a great deal of assistance from the Chairman of the Council, Sir Thomas Middleton. In addition to these members, at the request of the Committee, the Lord President of the Council invited Sir William Bragg, the former President of the Royal Society, to become an additional member for the period of a year because his term of office in the Royal Society had come to an end very shortly after we started. Our secretaries are Professor Topley, a distinguished Fellow of the Royal Society, with a colleague from the War Cabinet Secretariat. Your Lordships will see that that composition gives the Committee contact, through the Royal Society, with the whole stream of scientific work and thought in the country and Empire; through the Government representatives, with the whole of Government research; and, finally, through the Chairman and the Lord President of the Council, to whom we report, with the policy of the Government in these matters.
The noble Viscount has raised the question of whether the Government have not interpreted the term "scientists" rather narrowly, and there have been suggestions made that that is reflected in the composition of the Committee, which ought to have included representatives of applied science. The reason for their non-inclusion was not in any way a failure to appreciate the great importance of applied science in our war effort, but simply that the proposal did not fit into the scheme of the Scientific Advisory Committee as the Government conceived it. The Government envisaged a small body with contacts over the whole range of science but not representing any particular section, so as to ensure the utmost use of science and scientists in the prosecution of the war. The representation of applied science, with its many branches, must inevitably have added considerably
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to the membership of the Committee and would have altered the whole conception. The Government, however, are at the present moment in touch with the professional societies concerned with a view to the possible establishment of a separate organisation working in the field of applied science, and in close touch with the Scientific Advisory Committee. An announcement may be expected before long. As I proceed I think I shall show very definitely that the term "scientist" has not been interpreted in any narrow manner.
In accordance with the stress laid in the terms of reference on the importance of the Committee devoting themselves to our war effort, the Committee have done so and will continue to do so. Nevertheless, the importance of the eventual use of science in reconstruction and post-war times has not been overlooked, and the Committee have been in touch with the Minister without Portfolio on this subject. We have not got very far because most of our time has been given to the war effort, but I hope that in due course we shall provide him with a full portfolio. At their first meeting the Committee decided that they must have as a background for their future work a survey of the whole of the scientific activities of Government Departments in the field of science. That survey has proved its value in providing the Committee and the Government Departments with up-to-date particulars of all the official channels through which knowledge of scientific problems is available, and as to the relations of the various scientific departments and councils and committees one to another. In addition to obtaining a number of written reports for this survey the Committee invited the Directors of Scientific Research of each of these Departments engaged in war work to tell them something of their activities. Sometimes they were accompanied by Staff Officers representing the users of science— the operational side you might almost say. Of course, as the noble Viscount has said, some of these matters are extremely secret, and to ensure against any risk the Committee delegated to a few of their number who were already associated officially with secret Government research work, these discussions upon the survey of research.

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In coming to the question how far science is used in the prosecution of the war I am going to return for a moment to the three pillars of research of the permanent civil research organisations. In normal times these three Departments are concerned mainly with the contribution of science to peaceful development, but now the whole of their vast resources are available and are being largely devoted to our war effort. I will take the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research. It has thirty-three advisory boards or committees, each dealing with a particular subject and each commanding the services of distinguished experts. How distinguished they are may be judged from the fact that they include fifty-one Fellows of the Royal Society, and the Department itself has eleven Fellows of the Royal Society on its staff. There are in addition eight Fellows of the Royal Society or university professors who are retained as consultants. Beyond that there are fifteen university professors who are doing research work on extra-mural contracts in their own laboratories. Then a lot of important work is being done in co-operation with the research stations and individual firms by means of groups maintained either by a number of industries in co-operation or by particular firms, and to those I should like to pay tribute. The Department has ten research institutes, including the National Physical Laboratory, which the noble Viscount has mentioned, the Chemical Research Laboratory, and laboratories for research on building, food investigation, fuel, roads, forest products, water pollution, and pest infestation.
Then there is the Geological Survey. The Department really is now assisting every Department of the State, and especially Service Departments. For instance, in home security problems such as building and shelter construction and bomb disposal the Department gives a lot of help to the Ministry of Home Security. It also helps the Ministry of Food in storage problems and combating pests that would eat up the food, and by advising economical methods of packing to save space. The work of the road research section is invaluable to the Air Ministry in the construction of aeroplane runways. Geology among other contributions to our war effort makes one very interesting one, because it tells the local
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authorities where to find sand in their own neighbourhood, thus saving a great deal of transportation and expense.
Next I come to the Medical Research Council with its forty-five committees or sub-committees, its National Institute for Medical Research, and its nine smaller research units which bring an immense amount of assistance to our war effort. I would like to give an example. Before the war, in concert with the Ministry of Health and other Departments concerned, preparations were made that have been much expanded during the war, for safeguarding public health against the risks arising from war conditions, such as enemy action, or concentration or over-concentration of populations in certain areas. An Emergency Public Health Laboratory Service was established with laboratories all over the country so that any unusual outbreaks of disease might be rapidly identified. Stocks of anti-sera and vaccines were accumulated and distributed throughout the country, and provision was made for their replenishment in case of necessity. I can assure your Lordships that precautions have even been taken against those extremer forms of frightfulness with which writers in the Press of all countries from time to time like to make our flesh creep. In all this work, as I can testify, because I have been concerned in it myself for years, the Medical Research Council has taken a very prominent part.
Let me take another subject which the noble Viscount mentioned—nutrition. In a speech in this House in July, 1939, I ventured to state that fifteen years normally elapsed between research on nutrition and its application. That is no longer true. Under the pressure of war conditions science has come into its own. The Food Policy Committee of the Cabinet, for instance, makes a great deal of use of a scientific advisory committee, and my noble friend the Minister of Food makes a great deal of use of a technical advisory staff. He issues a stream of guidance to the public on nutrition natters, bringing out the importance of milk, potatoes and other vegetables which provide the essential vitamins and mineral salts in their natural and most effective form. A national wheatmeal bread, the result of concentrated emergency research, has been put upon the market; and my noble friend's milk scheme is

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another example of the application of research. In my noble friend's presence I hesitate to speak of Woolton pie, but if people will only take my noble friend's advice I am quite confident that we shall come out of this war a healthier and sounder nation than we entered it.
I want to emphasize that the sphere of the Medical Research Council is not limited to the word "medical" in its normally accepted sense. It is concerned with all the problems that affect man's health and efficiency. This has enabled the Medical Research Council to assist the Defence Departments by increasing the efficiency and well-being of the men who have to operate machines such as aircraft and tanks and so forth. Very good work of this kind has been done by a Flying Personnel Research Committee set up nine months before the war. The Scientific Advisory Committee have been very interested in this and have brought it to the attention of the other Departments. Indeed the work of the Flying Personnel Research Committee has been extended at the request of the Admiralty to the Navy, and in addition a Military Personnel Research Committee has been set up.
The Agricultural Research Council, with twenty-five standing and technical committees of scientists with special experience of the matters with which they are dealing, with a field experimental station, and with great influence on the work of the twenty-three existing agricultural research institutes and other agricultural research subsidised by the Government, also make a great contribution to our war effort. At present, however, for historical reasons really, their powers are less comprehensive and unfettered than those of the other two Research Departments of which I have been speaking. I shall refer to that matter a little later.
I come now to the use of science in the military side of the war, where, as already mentioned, the Departments concerned are the Admiralty, the Ministry of Supply, the Ministry of Aircraft Production, and the Ministry of Home Security. There is very much in common between the methods of these Departments. Each has a Director of Research. The Ministry of Supply and the Ministry of Home Security have Central Advisory Committees to assist the Directors in planning and carrying out the work. The three Defence Departments are represented on them and the Committees include un-
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official as well as official experts. The Ministry of Aircraft Production has an Aeronautical Research Committee, the successor of the Advisory Committee on Aeronautics, in which, if I remember aright, my noble friend Lord Mottistone was concerned with me as far back as 1909. In each case detailed work is delegated to sub-committees, which usually include both official and unofficial experts. The First Lord of the Admiralty announced in another place a few days ago that, in order to strengthen still further the co-operation between the Admiralty Research Department, outside scientists, and the Navy itself, the Board had decided to set up a scientific advisory panel under the chairmanship of the Director of Scientific Research.
All these Departments maintain research establishments, more than a score in number, all manned by highly qualified scientists. They work in close co-operation with one another, and one Defence Department will often refer a particular problem to an establishment maintained by another which has better facilities for the job. Each Department has constant resort to the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research and the Medical Research Council, as well as to universities or other research institutes, or the research laboratories of producing firms. There is an increasing tendency to bring the large producing firms into co-operation at the earliest possible stage so that full advantage can be taken of their knowledge and experience—a point to which the Scientific Advisory Committee attach the utmost importance. That, I think, is the stage where applied science, working on the one hand with pure scientists and on the other hand with the user, plays a most important part in the scientific work of the Government.
I must also in passing mention among Service research activities the Ordnance Board which now acts under the Ministry of Supply. It is an inter-Service body with executive functions as to trials and calculations concerning firearms, their equipment, ammunition and armour. The Board, it is rather interesting to recall, derives originally from the Committee of Field Officers and Artillery under the æegis of the Board of Ordnance, 1518. Its standing members are officers of the three Services, and distinguished scientists are appointed from time to time from outside as associate members.

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I am afraid that statistics of committees and establishments do not really give a picture of what is being done by the Government Departments in the world of science. If I may, I should like to give just a few of the subjects on which research is being done. I cannot go far into it for reasons which the noble Viscount stated to your Lordships, but I would mention a few of the subjects dealt with and ask your Lordships to think what research into them involves, to think of all the branches and sub-branches that there are to each of them. Take the design and development of warships, or aircraft, or mechanised vehicles. The noble Viscount said our aircraft were the best in the world, and I believe they are, but our ships are also the best in the world, and I do not think our mechanised vehicles are less efficient.
Think of all the research that is needed on these armaments, of all the gadgets that you see when you visit them. Think of the artillery and bombing problems of the three Services, of ballistics, range-finding, aiming and spotting, projectiles, fuses, propellants and other explosives, of small arms and their ammunition, of machine guns and of the innumerable problems of the submarine, the submarine mine, the bomber and the fighter, the means of locating them by day and by night in thick weather or in clear weather, the means for destroying them when you have located them. Then there are armour problems for ships, aircraft, tanks and armoured cars and for the individual fighting man—great problems these, with great metallurgical problems in all of them. Think, too, of the vast complex problems of signals and communications, so tremendously important but so tremendously complicated by the progress in radio. Then there is gas warfare. We can never overlook the possibility of our enemy resorting to that. Research there has to be pursued as hard as we can. There are also all the medical and agricultural research problems to which I have already referred.
When I have said all that I have only touched the fringe of the subject. Every item is being pursued systematically and unremittingly all over the country by, in the aggregate, a veritable army of scientists. At our universities hundreds of young men are being trained in scientific
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subjects and according to their aptitudes they will be allotted to research or to the Defence Services or to industry. I have not got complete figures, but in one branch alone with which I have been associated I know that 700 young men are being trained at the universities in that way. At technical institutions and colleges all over the country, again by arrangement with the Government, thousands of young men, many of them actually in uniform, are being given a background of scientific education to fit them for the requirements of the modern Fighting Forces. In addition to that thousand of men are being trained at the Services establishments. I should like to pay tribute to the educational authorities and the people at the universities and the technical schools who are putting so much energy and life into this work. I have seen some of it, and it really has to be seen to be believed—the keenness they have inspired in the sailors, soldiers, and airmen who are doing this work. In this way the Defence Services and ultimately the nation are being permeated from top to bottom with science. Much the same is taking place in the Dominions. These are really inspiring developments, and they give one much food for thought.
These are the facts, and perhaps your Lordships might like to know the conclusions of the Scientific Advisory Committee after examining all these matters. In the main they are to the effect that the scientific activities of the Government are far more effective and far more extensive than is commonly realised and that much of the criticism is mainly due to lack of knowledge of the facts. For instance, there is one criticism that the Government have failed to make effective use of the services of outside scientists. As a matter of fact, the names of nearly 300 senior outside scientists of the highest class were actually given to the Committee in the course of their investigations, and that list did not include the great mass of younger scientists engaged on war work in all those establishments—I think I have mentioned between forty and fifty at least—maintained by the Government for research work, or in the Services.
Of course, it would be too much to claim that the fullest use is being made of every senior scientific worker, but I believe that in all the more important fields the majority of those especially well fitted

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to assist our war effort have been given an opportunity to do so. But there are some fields where the opportunities have not yet appeared, and we are conscious of a feeling of frustration in some quarters there. As regards the younger scientists to whom the noble Viscount referred, the junior scientific workers, the demand in the different fields of science is very varying and fluctuates, and it is only possible very gradually to absorb in work of national importance all the very large numbers who are anxious to employ their special knowledge in some form of war work. This problem will be kept constantly in mind, both by the Scientific Advisory Committee and by the Government, and everything possible will be done to find places for those who have not yet been able to pull their whole weight. But in view of all the difficulties the Scientific Advisory Committee believe that serious criticism of the present position is not justified.
Having recorded general satisfaction with the range and effectiveness of the Government's scientific activities, the Committee reached the conclusion that some of the existing forms of organisation are better than others. They call attention, in particular to the effective and economical methods developed by the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research and the Medical Research Council, whose success they believe is largely due to the fact that they have been given full scientific freedom and complete control over the funds at their disposal. As I have said, the Agricultural Research Council, as at present organised, has not the same freedom of initiative and action. Believing that the scientific development of agriculture is of the utmost importance, both to our war effort and in problems of reconstruction, the Scientific Advisory Committee have been considering how such freedom could be secured and how the Council's activities could be made more effective. In consultation with the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries and the Secretary of State for Scotland, the Committee have drawn up proposals for strengthening fundamental research and ensuring a more ready application of promising scientific discoveries to actual agricultural practice. I will not trespass on your Lordships' patience by describing the proposals in detail as I understand
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that a statement in regard to them is to be made in another place.
So far as the scientific activities of the Defence Services are concerned, the points to which the Committee attach the greatest importance are the following: 1. Provision in the organisation of Departmental scientific staffs for regular consultation with a strong advisory council or committee which includes outside scientific experts. As I have shown, the Departments concerned have applied this principle generally. 2. The utmost possible use of the facilities of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research and the Medical Research Council. This is already in operation and will probably be extended. 3. A much wider and more intensive study of those problems connected with early and adequate provision for the well-being and efficiency of personnel in the design of new instruments of war. This again, as I have indicated, is well in hand. 4. The close co-operation at every stage of research, development and production between the operational and scientific staffs, in other words between research and development on the one side and the user on the other.
These principles were discussed at a meeting of the Ministers principally concerned which was convened by the Lord President of the Council. It was found that Government Departments had already applied them to a considerable extent according to their needs and that they were continuing the process. The policy of the Ministry of Supply, for example, is to promote close contact between those responsible for research and production. This is true also of the other production Departments. The Admiralty encourage their scientific staff to go to sea, and welcomed a suggestion that scientific workers should be attached to the Fleet in order to bring them into the closest possible contact with the actual conditions under which new devices should be operated. The Ministry of Aircraft Production believe in and promote the principle of co-operation between the scientific and the operational staffs. The Ministry of Home Security have taken special steps to promote co-operation between research workers and those responsible for practical work in the fields of engineering and administration. This has proved helpful in the development of shelter policy and other matters. I think,

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therefore, that the noble Viscount will agree that I have said about as much as can be said, without trespassing on ground on which I ought not to tread in public debate, to show how widely the Government have construed the term "scientist" and how fully the principle has been applied of co-operation between the research worker, the applied scientist, and those engaged in operations.
I should like to mention one or two I other matters which have engaged the attention of the Scientific Advisory Committee. Our second term of reference gave us the task of suggesting to Government Departments the names of scientists for particular investigations and tasks. We have had a good many requests, and we have made suggestions which have been adopted, including suggestions for some very key posts. I must, however, mention in this connection the invaluable work of the Central Register of the Ministry of Labour and National Service, for the utilisation in Government Departments and elsewhere of persons with scientific, technical, professional and higher administrative qualifications. With the aid of the Government Departments concerned, and of the Royal Society and other outside organisations, and of a very strong advisory council of their own, they have built up a very comprehensive register.
I think that I have time for a word about new inventions. Owing to oversimplified versions of our terms of reference at the time of our appointment, it was widely assumed that our function was to receive and to report upon new inventions, and for a time the Committee were absolutely deluged with them. Since ample arrangements already existed for dealing with new inventions, and have existed ever since the beginning of the war, we passed them on through the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research to the proper channels; but we ensured that every proposal received careful consideration and that a reply was sent. Some cynic has said that the new ideas are never bright and that the bright ideas are never new. I do not endorse that, but, as I have told your Lordships, a vast amount of science and brains has been concentrated upon the invention, the discovery and the development of all these new methods of war, so that it is not
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surprising that most of the bright ideas have been anticipated, especially when the technique of modern weapons is considered. Now and again, however, the exceptional case arises—I have met it myself, and I hope that in a humble way I have contributed one now and then myself—and when it comes we cannot afford to miss it. Inventions and bright ideas, therefore, will always be welcomed and will be given thorough examination.
The noble Viscount has raised the question of enlisting scientific researchers of other countries, and he has mentioned, among others, refugee aliens. That is a matter to which the Scientific Advisory Committee have given quite a deal of attention. There are, of course, obvious limitations. If, as I have said, we have not absorbed into the Government war effort all our own men of science, we cannot have absorbed unlimited numbers of refugee scientists. In addition, much of the work is extremely secret, and precautions have to be taken. Nevertheless, quite a number of refugee specialists are employed in research laboratories, mainly on the medical side so far as the Government are concerned, but also in industry. Special organisations have been set up both for obtaining information, suggestions and assistance from friendly refugees, including men of science, and also for assisting them to obtain employment. I could give statistics, but they would take more time than I can afford.
The Scientific Advisory Committee have gone into the question of co-operation within the Empire, and report that scientific co-operation with the Dominions, India and the Colonies is on a satisfactory footing. Canada, of course, occupies a place of special importance, and her collaboration in the scientific field is proving of the greatest value. There is also in Canada scope for close co-operation in scientific matters with the United States of America; and so Professor Fowler, a scientist of great distinction, has been in Canada for some eight months, and is now being relieved by Sir Lawrence Bragg, a colleague of equal distinction.
I come now to the point mentioned by the noble Viscount about co-operation in scientific matters with the United States of America. At one of the early meetings of the Scientific Advisory Committee this question was raised, and the matter was

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discussed with Processor Fulton, of Yale, who was on a mission to this country on behalf of the National Research Council of America. A member of the Committee, Professor A. V. Hill, had recently returned from a visit to that country, and the subject was discussed with him, and then with Sir Henry Tizard, who had returned from a similar mission. After consideration of the Committee's proposals, and after consultation with the proper authorities in the United States, the Government drew up a comprehensive scheme, which has already been put into operation. His Majesty's Government have selected and sent Dr. Darwin, the Director of the National Physical Laboratory, as Director of a Central Scientific Office, working under the direction of the British Supply Council in North America, to collaborate with United States research bodies, to act as a channel for the exchange, with the appropriate United States authorities, of technical and scientific information, and generally to coordinate scientific and technical inquiries to and from the United States authorities, except on those matters which are already dealt with very effectively through the Service Attachés. Professor Fowler's scientific mission to Canada is closely linked with this system, so as to ensure a complete interchange of scientific and technical information between the three countries. The noble Viscount may see there the germ of his idea of future Scientific Attachés, of which I have made a special note.
At the same time, President Roosevelt has sent to England Dr. Conant, the very distinguished President of Harvard University, to establish a corresponding mission in this country. Dr. Conant and some of his colleagues have been present at meetings of the Scientific Advisory Committee. The mission has received a very warm welcome, and very careful arrangements have been made to facilitate its work. Its permanent Secretary, Doctor Hovde, was a Rhodes Scholar, and spent some years at Oxford, and he knows his way about here very well. Accredited American scientists have already arrived in this country. As an example of the sympathy between scientific bodies in the United States of America and in Great Britain, I should like to recall the generous gift to the Royal Society of 10,000 dollars "for the
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aid of science in Great Britain" from the American Philosophical Society, which was announced a few days ago.
The historians of war from the earliest time pay their tributes to the importance of science. The theme of a long chapter by Polybius on Archimedes is that:
"The genius of one man is more effective than any number whatsoever."
In these days no one man, whatever his genius, can cover more than a fraction of the immense field of science in war, of which I have only been able to give the faintest impression in the time at my disposal. We require thousands of scientists. We are engaged in a death struggle with an enemy who boasts, not without justification, of his achievements in the field of science. Our scientists are at least as good as his, and with the aid of the scientific resources of the Empire, and especially of the United States of America, we are building a scientific equipment which is destined to play an ever-increasing part in our war effort and in the period of reconstruction that must come thereafter.
LORD RAYLEIGH: My Lords, I think your Lordships will be not less satisfied than myself with the statement that the noble Lord, Lord Hankey, has given us, and in particular we shall not fail to be well satisfied that if our scientific efforts fall short, it is not for want of committees. I have had a good deal of experience of committees of this kind in the last war, and I do not think any criticism that I can make will be in the direction of saying that scientific advice was not asked or in the direction of saying that it was not given. I think the trouble was rather that it was not always taken. This remark may lend itself to a rather obvious retort: "Perhaps they did not think much of your advice when they got it." Well, I must admit that it is natural to make a retort of that kind, but I think I can get away from the personal aspect of it because I have had occasion to look through the papers of the late Sir Joseph Thomson, who was associated with a good many committees in the last war, and I gather very clearly that his experience was exactly the same as my own. I expect that since those days the position has been greatly improved.
There are difficulties about it. Scientific men have their own ideas as to what might be attempted, and those are not always in

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very good agreement with Service views as to what is practicable, and to what time and attention can best be directed. That difficulty I think is inherent. To begin with, the man who conceives an idea has an interest in his own child, which may not always be shared by others. The noble Lord spoke about the liaison between the scientific and development side and the operational side. The few remarks I have to make have chief reference to that. My knowledge is not perfect; it only comes by way of ordinary information and gossip. Perhaps if it were perfect it would be confidential and my lips would be sealed. As it is, they are not. If what I say is somewhat irresponsible, that defect in my imperfect information will no doubt be taken into account in assessing it.
But I have certainly gathered the impression that when scientific men are called upon to create necessarily elaborate devices for purposes of anti-aircraft work and the like, they may spend their best efforts in constructing devices, necessarily elaborate, for the purpose, and then somewhat suddenly be divorced from them, without any adequate chance of instructing those who are to use the things in the inevitable difficulties and help them over what may be called their teething troubles. Naturally, any device of that kind goes through a phase when it requires a good deal of help and assistance. Laboratory tests can never fully explore the difficulties which may be met with in practical application, and when an elaborate device is handed over to private soldiers not at all instructed, and perhaps not even given on paper any directions as to how it is to be used, naturally the position is somewhat critical. If one observes the way in which private soldiers at times handle the furniture, or even the gateposts, of the houses in which they may be quartered, their capacity to deal with delicate and complicated contrivances without instruction will naturally cause some slight apprehension.
I have heard—whether it is justified or not I do not know—that something very near a strike was caused at a certain place by the refusal of the military authorities to allow anyone not in uniform to come and smooth over the difficulties and instruct men who were in uniform as to how the difficulties could be over
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come. It may be that what I am saying is out of date, and those difficulties have been overcome, but I am well convinced that they had a certain reality. Those points of connection between development and operation are among the most difficult and the ones in which probably organisation still requires to be given further attention. If I may, in conclusion, thank the noble Lord for his statement, I am sure I shall be associating myself with those who have this question at heart.
LORD MOTTISTONE: My Lords, before this debate concludes, I desire to say one or two words—one in commendation, and one in criticism, of the arrangements made by His Majesty's Government for the co-operation of the scientific world in our war effort. As the noble Lord, Lord Hankey, has disclosed, he and I began co-operation in these matters thirty-four years ago, and I have had cognisance of what has been going on since then. I would say with that knowledge that we are indeed fortunate that we have still got him as head of this organisation, for it is a fact that Lord Hankey has been organising this thing for all these years, ever since 1907. We have still got him here to bring together all the best brains, as he has indicated, not only of this country but of the Empire, and I believe of almost the whole world except the strange, bizarre Germans, with their lunatic notions of their own national importance; and this enables him, I think, to say with confidence as he stands at that box that we have made a good plan of our scientific organisation. I think that the plans made are good.
The one word of criticism before this debate concludes is this. The French were very successful in the last war in taking the public into their confidence whenever they could on those aspects of war which affected the citizen and about which the citizen did not know. That was partly due to the fact that the President of the French Republic had a distinguished relative with an even clearer brain than his own, Professor Poincaré, who was utilised by successive French Governments to give little announcements to the people which had a marvellous effect in calming the public mind. A famous one, which has been quoted more than once, concerned what he would do in an air raid, and this was published

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in every newspaper in France and in leaflets distributed by the million. This wise old scientist, whom everyone trusted, as they would trust the word of the great scientists to whom Lord Hankey has referred, said, "Some of my friends go down to the cellar because they think the bomb will not penetrate. Some go to the roof because they think the bomb will fall through. Some stay in the middle of the house because of their constitutional disposition for compromise. For myself, I remain safe and sound under the impenetrable vault of probabilities." Every Frenchman loved the phrase. And it was quite true in the Paris of those days, where the chance of being injured was about a million to one against.
I beg my noble friend Lord Hankey to point out that we want more of that sort of thing now. We have a wonderful array of scientists who have a sense of values, and who could do the same sort of thing for us now as Professor Poincaré did for France in the last war. I give one instance, and one instance only. I see in his place the Minister of Aircraft Production, whom I have known all his life. This dynamic personality is trying to make all the people of this country who are concerned with making aircraft disregard the risks, within reason, and keep on working. At the same time another part of the Government, which ought to be co-ordinated by the scientific brain of Lord Hankey, is terrifying the public by fantastic talk about carrying gas-masks in broad daylight on a breezy day. Every man with any common sense knows—I do not want to put it too high—that that is the proceeding of a lunatic, and makes us the laughing stock of every foreigner, especially of the Germans. How could any German aircraft drop a bomb for which we have an answer in a gas-mask on a breezy summer day? We have already got mastery of the air in daylight. Why do these foolish things? I implore the noble Lord, who has done so much to bring scientific brains together, to enlighten the public on these elementary matters. We have an intelligent people. Tell them to keep their gas-masks and take care of them, but do not compel them to carry them on all occasions, jostling in trams and 'buses when, in no conceivable circumstances, can any German aircraft drop asphyxiating gas for which the mask would be a protection.
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In that way we should encourage the aircraft workers to go on working in security, knowing that our fighters can keep the enemy out of the air, and that it is impossible for anything like a concentration of gas to be dropped in such circumstances. Those of us who served in the last war know that. Scientists know it better than I can describe. You want not only dozens but hundreds of aircraft to make it worth while to drop an asphyxiating gas in sufficient concentration. Therefore the Minister of Aircraft Production is quite right in saying, "Go on, don't be afraid." Yet while, as I say, we have the Minister of Aircraft Production advising his people to go on working unless the thing is really severe, at the same time we have another Department of the Government advertising to the people that they ought to hide themselves behind every kind of protection and go on working in the dark behind brick walls, where of course no proper work can be done on aircraft production or anything else. There is a complete lack of appreciation of the real risks and the relative dangers. I hope I have made my meaning clear to my noble friend, because I am quite sure that if he could ensure the communication to the people in intelligible form of the knowledge these scientists have got, it would put a stop to all these follies which make the people: think the Government do not mean what they say and that the whole thing is a fake. On the general question I observe that the noble Lord has done his utmost to secure the co-operation of science, especially for war, and my noble friend Lord Samuel, who had to leave on an urgent matter, has begged me to say that he would be very glad to withdraw his Motion.
LORD SEMPILL: My Lords, I shall detain the House for a few minutes only. I would congratulate the noble Viscount on having raised this important issue of the use of science in this present period or, for that matter, in any period in future whether we be at war or at peace. As has been shown, too much attention cannot be given to regimenting the entire scientific talent of the nation and directing it into those channels in which immediate and effective use can be made of it. There is much to be done to bring about such a desired result. Your Lordships who have spoken have marked the

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various measures that might be implemented in giving further effect to this policy. You will not, I feel sure, wish me to go into details, and will agree that in any case such cannot usefully be debated in your Lordships' House. Rather should broad principles be laid down and encouraging suggestions made to bring about this policy in the fullest possible way.
We are indeed fortunate that we can now approach this question with a feeling of great confidence—nay, more than that, of great enthusiasm—because for the first time in our history we have a Prime Minister who, in addition to his unique powers of leadership and quite uncanny prevision of things to come, has a mind peculiarly receptive to scientific ideas. He is, moreover, determined to utilise those powers of science in every possible way and to lead us forward to that victory which unquestionably we shall achieve, and also to use science in the period of aftermath and reconstruction. As your Lordships know, to give practical effect to these ideas the Prime Minister has set up the Scientific Advisory Committee under the distinguished Chairmanship of my noble friend Lord Hankey. This was a truly great and unique move, and I am proud, if I may be allowed to do so, not only to congratulate Lord Hankey on this work that he has been doing in charge of that Committee, but also on his remarkable exposé of the work and the powers and future policies of his Committee.
With his vast experience of this there can be no doubt at all in your Lordships' minds that he is the ideal Chairman for such a Committee consisting of the leading scientists of our country. Perhaps your Lordships may allow me to remark that in the course of my duties I know of at least two vital matters in which immense services of importance have been rendered by Lord Hankey's Committee. We are daily, in fact, reaping benefits in two most vital spheres, and I feel sure that your Lordships will urge that Lord Hankey's Committee may be given the widest possible powers so as to function as what one might perhaps assume to be a scientific cabinet to our great national advantage. In this I am sure he will only be implementing in full the dynamic and great vision that the Prime Minister had
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in setting up this most useful body that has performed, and will continue to perform, such great service.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

STATUS OF U.S.A. CITIZENS IN GREAT BRITAIN.
LORD DAVIES: My Lords, I beg to ask the question standing on the Paper in my name.
[The question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government whether, in view of the moral and material assistance which is being afforded to our war effort by the Government and people of the United States of America, they will grant the status of British citizenship for the duration of the war to American citizens residing in or visiting Great Britain and exempt them from the restrictions and regulations applied to aliens.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA AND BURMA (THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE): My Lords, I am sure it is unnecessary for me to emphasize the immense appreciation felt by His Majesty's Government for, if I may use the noble Lord's own words, the moral and material assistance which is being afforded to our war effort by the Government and people of the United States of America. Nor need I repeat what has been said at other times and in other places as to the desire of the Government to give the most liberal treatment possible to citizens of the United States and other friends of this country who are either residing here or are here on a visit.
With this object in view all the orders imposing restrictions on aliens provide that exemptions will be granted in individual cases. My right honourable friend informs me that this has been proved a more satisfactory method of dealing with the problem than granting wholesale exemptions to persons of any one nationality. Such a policy would inevitably lead to invidious distinctions being drawn between the many friends and loyal Allies of this country who are anxious to serve the allied cause. But I can assure the noble Lord opposite that the authorities charged with the administration of the Aliens Order have received

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special instructions to give sympathetic treatment to persons such as citizens of allied countries or of the United States in whose case there is a special presumption that their sympathies are with this country. He, however, assures me that the wholesale exemption of the citizens of any State would be impracticable and would cause very considerable administrative difficulties.
The noble Lord has made a very interesting suggestion that the status of British citizenship should be granted for the duration of the war to United States citizens residing in or visiting this country. I have two comments to make upon that suggestion. One is that British citizenship not only confers privileges and rights, but it also involves duties, and in time of war they are very heavy and onerous duties. They are those of either serving in the Armed Forces or under the Emergency Powers (Defence) Act, 1941, in a civilian capacity in furtherance of the war effort. It is, of course, open to any United States citizen to volunteer for service in His Majesty's Forces, but volunteering for such a service is on a very different footing from being under an absolute liability to serve in whatever capacity the powers that be may consider most appropriate.
There is another consideration and that is, that while we are all stirred by the extent and generosity of the help which America is providing, and while we are all full of gratitude for the whole-hearted help that we are receiving from American citizens, we think there are many of them who would prefer to retain their American citizenship and who, although 100 per cent. interested in our war effort, would have no desire to become citizens of a country which after all is not theirs. If I may given an example, the noble Lord himself rather more than a. year ago did very excellent and distinguished work in visiting Finland, and I have no doubt he,
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like all of us, was 100 per cent. with the Finns, and full of boundless admiration for their splendid courage and the magnificent fight they made; yet I never heard that on that occasion he wished to cease to be an Englishman and become a Finn. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary, therefore, does not consider that the suggestion in the noble Lord's question is a practicable one; but he does authorise me to say that the Government and the Department on whose behalf I am speaking are most anxious to treat as liberally as possible and as generously as the dictates of security permit, all foreign nationals residing in this country who are its friends or Allies, and that steps have been taken to provide a system of individual exemptions.
LORD DAVIES: May I ask the noble Duke whether those exemptions will be accorded to those foreigners who are now engaged in helping us in war duties?
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: Yes I think those are the very people my right honourable friend refers to as being citizens of allied countries or of the United States in whose case there is a special presumption that their sympathies are with this country.

CHARTERED AND OTHER CODIES (TEMPORARY PROVISIONS) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
LORD SNELL: My Lords, I should like to say that at the next sitting of the House the Second Reading of the National Service Bill will be taken.
House adjourned.