Lords Sitting of 18 September 1940

Preamble
The House met, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
CLYDE LIGHTHOUSES CONSOLIDATION ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1ª; to be printed; and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1936) deemed to have been read 2ª and reported from the Committee.
CLYDE LIGHTHOUSES CONSOLIDATION ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.

  SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932.
  URBAN DISTRICT OF CHURCH STRETTON ORDER.
  URBAN DISTRICT OF HALSTEAD ORDER.
  URBAN DISTRICT OF NORTH-ALLERTON ORDER.
  BOROUGH OF STAMFORD ORDER.
  THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (LORD CROFT): My Lords, I beg to move that this House do approve the said Orders.
  Moved, That the Orders made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department under the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, and laid before the House on Thursday, the 5th instant, be approved.—(Lord Croft.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

THE BRITISH AND ALLIED CASE.
LORD ADDISON LORD ADDISON rose to ask His Majesty's Government what steps are being taken to secure an adequate presentation of the British and Allied case at home and abroad; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I do not need to emphasize the importance of the Motion that stands in my name because it concerns a very critical and vital part of our war effort. I understand that the noble Viscount the Leader of the Houses wishes to be able to get away to
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an important meeting as soon as possible, so that I shall curtail my remarks to the maximum extent, but there are certain aspects of the matter which I must present in some little detail. So far as the British case is concerned, whether in neutral countries or in foreign countries—and, I should imagine, to a very large section of the people in Germany—ours is a much better case than the Nazi case. We appeal all over the world to everybody who loves freedom and individual liberty, and yet we are bound to admit, I think, that so far as propaganda is concerned, Nazi propaganda has been much more active, and in many countries much more successful, than ours, whilst it should have been quite the contrary.
I have been supplied with some excellent and carefully-prepared notes which are the result of examination by people who know, and I want to present certain aspects of the case in the hope, anyhow, that the representative of the Government will pass on these suggestions and, if possible, make use of some of them. There seem to be certain obvious reasons why our propaganda has not been so successful as that of the Germans. In saying that, I am not in the least suggesting that we should imitate the lying methods of Dr. Goebbels and his friends. Truth is so strong and so excellent that what we have got to do is to use the truth, and I am not sure we are doing that. At all events, the Germans have made propaganda a real weapon of war, and they have centralised the direction of it under a central command. That command is assisted by a world-wide intelligence service. It is assisted by departments that study the whole system on a strategic plan. They mobilise the services of the radio and the foreign Press, and they have, I suppose, in every country—very likely in this country as well—nests of their own propagandists. The whole thing is inspired and directed by, evidently, from their immoral point of view, a highly efficient staff. We as usual have lagged behind in a good many respects.
May I examine our efforts very briefly so far as they affect three groups of people? First, in the neutral countries, it appears that our existing agencies are threefold. We have the foreign and American publicity divisions of the Ministry of Information and the B.B.C., but they do not seem to work as one or

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under any common direction. I am afraid it is true to say that a good many of the B.B.C. broadcasts, excellent as they are to ourselves, are not, according to information at my disposal, the kind of broadcasts which would make the appeal that ought to be made to people in neutral countries. What happens, I understand, is that a lot of things is collected, and then it is translated into these foreign languages. Now the translators, or those who give out the broadcasts in the different foreign languages to neutrals, are no doubt members for the most part of those nationalities, but they are not allowed, I understand, to make suggestions as to the adaptation of this news, the presentation of our case, and the kind of material that ought to be put in it. It is, no doubt, an accurate and a well-articulated translation of the B.B.C. versions of things. But that is not good enough. The news should be made acceptable. I have no doubt that it should be in some respects different. For example, take the Norwegians. They want information about what is happening to their own people.
Neutrals all over the world want all kinds of items of information that are of much greater interest to them than they are to us. What, I understand, occurs is that so far as neutrals are concerned there are just these translations given out, and there is no conference between the people who know these countries at first hand and the authorities who are in control of these two divisions of the Ministry of Information or the B.B.C. Well, there ought to be. This ought to be harmonised and directed so as to make the best appeal to the people in foreign countries. I understand that in this respect there are two major difficulties. There is lack of co-ordination and there is also considerable difficulty experienced still by the Ministry of Information with regard to sending news overseas. It has no control over cables and wireless. I had a case put to me where a cable took fifteen hours to reach South America. We had a few experiences retailed yesterday with regard to the difficulty of getting into the War Office and other Departments. We know many cases in which the Germans have been ahead of us in getting their news across, and it is perfectly clear that one reason for this is that there is no adequate control here over cables and wireless and
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the methods of communication. Amongst other things I find, in regard to the expenses of the Foreign Publicity Department of the Ministry of Information, that so far as the expenses on these cables are concerned the Treasury are very parsimonious. The Treasury put the screw on. That is all very well at other times, but this is not a time to be parsimonious in presenting our case through cables to neutral countries.
Now let me say a word about the countries occupied by the Nazis. In those countries there must be tens of millions of people who are profoundly hateful of the Nazi system, who are oppressed, who have had their liberties taken from them and their homes broken up. If there is a mass of people ready-made, so to speak, for the presentation of the British case, it is in those occupied countries. There is in fact almost no limit to the material that could be made use of. I am quite sure that so far we have not tackled this job properly. There are in this country members of all these States sympathetic to ourselves and only too anxious to be made full use of. I understand that here again there is the same separateness between the branches of the Ministry of Information and the B.B.C. Above all, this matter is thought of from the English point of view. I think I am a good Englishman, but if I wanted a case presented to the Dutch I should get a Dutchman to help me to do it, and the same suggestion applies in the case of the other countries. But that is not what happens. These translators, I understand, have got to do what they are told.
Then take the opportunities of propaganda in Germany itself. They must be immense. It is true that the whole country is held down by the Nazi machine; but I remember very well what happened in the last war. It was a long time, in fact nearly three years, before this country took effective measures to get across to the people in Germany the disappointments from which their Army was suffering. Take our present experience. The Germans have been told by loud voiced propaganda scores of times that this Blitzkrieg was to finish the British Empire in no time, and that Hitler was going to make a triumphal entry into London, I think on August 15, and all the rest of it, dressed up with great

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embellishments and loud-sounding terms time after time. I have no doubt there are millions in Germany who are now asking themselves the question: How is it, after all these professions, that no British bomber will respect the sacred right of Germany, and that British bombers are bombing the Potsdam station in Berlin and other places? There must be millions in Germany who are wondering how it is that the prophecies that have been made have not come off. They must be thinking that something has gone wrong, as a good many of them began to suspect far too late after the Battle of the Marne in the last war what it meant. It was a long time before they realised what the German Staff had realised, that the trench warfare which had started in France would mean their ultimate defeat.
But there are masses of material available for us with which to influence the millions of discontented people that there must be in Germany. I know there are vast numbers of suppressed trades unionists and labour leaders who are as resentful as ever. What is our agency for getting across our case to these people? I am told there is an Enemy Propaganda Department. Where it lives I do not know, nor do I know who is responsible for it and I am not wishful to press any improper inquiries. I understand it is not under the Ministry of Information, but, under whatever Department, it ought to be given adequate funds and unlimited staff and full opportunity to do the job properly. I think it is absurd that it should be a separate set of people who deal with propaganda in Germany itself. We have got masses of refugees and journalists and all kinds of experienced people in this country who know how to handle this case in Germany, and for my part I should not be at all sticky as to what methods I adopted to stir up trouble in Germany amongst trade unionists or anybody else there or anywhere else. But it cannot be done unless we are prepared to create an effective organisation to deal with it. It seems to me that there are at present odd bits and pieces all over the place in the Ministry of Information and in the B.B.C. and in this other mysterious Department that lives somewhere or other.
The real reason, I believe, is that we with our characteristic and laudable love of truth and reliance upon the fact that
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it gets across in the end—which I believe is true—have not taken effective steps to create machinery to present the case. Three or four things are urgently required. They stick out as necessary. We ought to formulate a sufficient statement of our war aims. I am not going to press for details, nor am I going to argue the case, but I think a sufficient statement of our war aims should be presented, and if we can get it across by any means—whether overt or subterranean does not matter—it would have a great influence on large numbers of people in Germany and particularly in the occupied countries. All our propaganda in neutral countries, in occupied countries and in enemy countries should be centralised under a single propaganda command. We got that in the last war in 1917—and not before—and it made a profound difference to the outlook in many countries, particularly in America.
So far as the Treasury put a veto on expense, I think this is one of those cases, like the provision of shells, where we must be prepared to spend money freely. We ought not to throw it away, of course, but to think that you can be parsimonious about cables or wireless in a matter of this kind is just folly. Above all, this organization, I think, should be put in the charge of one man and should not be in half a dozen hands as it seems to be now. He should be a man who understands the business and not somebody who is a novice. I am always afraid myself of newspaper people because they give me a sort of creepy feeling that they have been brought up in a world of which I know next to nothing, but I do know that if you want a case presented you must employ somebody who is an expert at the job and give him a free hand and plenty of money and lots of organisation and all that he wants. I wish the noble Lord, Lord Beaverbrook, would take on the job. He is the kind of man who would do it. There is profound dissatisfaction everywhere amongst people who are in any way acquainted with what happens at the inadequate way in which our case has been presented. I must apologise to your Lordships for gabbling over the case and cutting it so short as I have done, but I think I have said enough to give the noble Viscount the Leader of the House a general view of what is in my mind. I beg to move for Paper.
LORD DAVIES: My Lords, there is one point I wish to mention because it refers to a question which I asked the noble Viscount yesterday as to the position of the British Council now that the Ministry of Information has been created. The British Council, as he knows, was established some time before the war and I understood it was an adjunct of the Foreign Office. I should have thought that once the Ministry of Information had been created the British Council would have become part and parcel of that Ministry, and I was glad to hear from the noble Viscount that consideration would be given to the question of carrying on the activities of the British Council and Ministry of Information as one Department in the future.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DOMINION AFFAIRS (VISCOUNT CALDECOTE): My Lords, I am greatly obliged to the noble Lord opposite for his courtesy in curtailing the observations which he would have made but for an intimation I gave him that I have been asked to be elsewhere as soon as possible. I hope that the noble Lord did not omit any essential facts which he wished to bring to your Lordships' notice. The question which the noble Lord has asked is what steps are being taken to secure adequate presentation of the British and Allied case at home and abroad. I may say at once in answer to that that whatever steps are being taken nobody ought to rest content with the adequacy of those steps. There must be constant attention to defects and omissions and constant determination to improve them. For that reason I am much obliged to the noble Lord for the suggestions which he made. They will of course be considered by my right honourable friend the Minister of Information.
It may be convenient to state briefly in answer to the noble Lord's question first of all what are the steps which are being taken for adequate presentation. Let it be realised that the Minister of Information is responsible only for the presentation of the British case and not for preparing material or settling the policy. The noble Lord suggested that it would be an advantage if a sufficient statement of our war aims at the present time were made. That, of course, is a question of high Government policy and the Minister of Information, though he may be a
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member of any body of Ministers which is considering the question, is concerned as Minister of Information only with the presentation of the statement of our war aims when they have been formulated. I know that the noble Lord and many others would like to see our war aims formulated and I have every reason to believe that the Prime Minister, as well as my noble friend the Foreign Secretary, is aware of that desire in many quarters.
With reference to the steps that are being taken to present our case abroad, inevitably the British Broadcasting Corporation is the principal agent for the presentation of the British case. The noble Lord referred to the more successful propaganda of the enemy. It has to be realised that from the point of view of facilities for the presentation of a case Germany has an advantage—which of course she does not deserve—in that she has appropriated in the middle of the Continent practically all the broadcasting stations, which operate over a land area where the matter that has to be put out will be effective. We are confined at present to stations which operate from Great Britain and their effectiveness is dispersed over a great area of ocean instead of land. Therefore Germany has an advantage at present. But I may take this opportunity of saying that His Majesty's Government have no intention whatever of sitting down under that disadvantage, and steps are being taken actively to overtake the superiority which at present is possessed by Germany by reason of the possession of stations of her own and those of other countries which she has appropriated.
The British Broadcasting Corporation has world services which operate over twenty hours out of the twenty-four. It has two European services operating, one over eighteen hours out of the twenty-four hours and the other for eight and a half hours out of the twenty-four. It is the Special Areas service which is used as the opportunity for reaching the Greek, Arabic and Turkish-speaking peoples in the Near East, and in South Africa, for instance, for reaching the Afrikaans-speaking population, and for reaching Latin America. This Special Areas service, I am informed, operates for over sixteen hours out of each twenty-four. There are seventy-two news bulletins in twenty-nine languages. As

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the noble Lord opposite quite correctly said, they are translated into the appropriate language by nationals of the countries who will receive the broadcast; but the noble Lord was not so accurate in what he said about these translators. They are not persons who merely go through a mechanical process; they are expected to use their intelligence, and it is not right to suggest that they are restricted in their opportunities for making suggestions. There is, of course, a controlling editor; but, subject to the discretion of the controlling editor, the translators are not merely allowed but invited to make suggestions for the very purpose that the noble Lord mentioned, of improving the broadcast both in form and to some extent in matter. I say "to some extent in matter" because naturally the translators have not the same facilities as other persons for knowing what the matter is. They are allowed the fullest opportunities for making suggestions as to the form and substance of the programmes broadcasted.
As an illustration of what is contained in these seventy-two news bulletins, there are six bulletins of varied descriptions for the French. The noble Lord mentioned particularly the question of broadcasts to Germany. There are programmes, lasting in all from two to three hours, which are timed for the express purpose of reaching the special audiences which are likely to listen to them. For instance, there is a broadcast at six o'clock (German time) every morning for the German workers, and the programme is adapted to meet their particular susceptibilities and views and generally it is of such a nature as to suit the persons who are expected to listen to it.
The noble Lord referred to the "Enemy Propaganda Department." I cannot say that I recognise that title as the appropriate name of a department, but there is the open enemy propaganda which comes under the Ministry of Information. There is also secret enemy propaganda, but, as the noble Lord and indeed all your Lordships are well aware, that is conducted under a veil which no one ever attempts to lift; and it would be quite improper, even if it were possible, for me to give details as to the apparatus used or as to the nature of that propaganda. To disclose the details, even if I had them,
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would be to defeat the purpose for which the organisation is used. That part of our propaganda organisation is not under the Ministry of Information, as the noble Lord will readily understand, but I can give him an assurance that what I may call the "open propaganda" in enemy countries is under one head, and it lives in the same place as the rest of the organisation of the Ministry of Information.
Special attention is given to the provision of matter for propaganda in North America, and it is being constantly developed. I am told that on September 29 a still more forward step will be taken. The United States of America is in rather a different position from that of many other countries; it enjoys the priceless privilege, which we have in this country also, of being allowed to think for itself. It is not so much a question of preventing what I may perhaps call "straight" propaganda in North America as of supplying the facts and information upon which a free-thinking people may be allowed to form opinions for itself. It is necessarily—if I may be allowed to put it in this way—a question of catering for people who are living on a higher level than those in the enslaved countries of Europe, who have to be provided with propaganda which will get over the German obstruction and resistance to our methods.
LORD ADDISON: I hope that the noble Viscount will not forget the point which I made—I am afraid very sketchily—as to the lack of relationship with, or control over, cables and wireless, and the consequent delay of messages which has often occurred in the case of both North America and South America.
VISCOUNT CALDECOTE: I was going to say a word about that, and I will say it now. I am not quite sure that I appreciate what the noble Lord suggests is the reason for the delay, or whose responsibility or fault it is. I am assured that there is close co-operation between Cables and Wireless and the Ministry of Information. So far as delay in the sending of cables by the company is concerned, that may be due to faults of organisation which may require attention, if what the noble Lord says is right, as no doubt it is; I accept it from him. I will see that when this debate is considered by the Minister of Information, attention is given to that point.

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In that connection, the noble Lord referred to what he called the parsimonious attitude of the Treasury. I do not suppose that there is any department of our public life upon which the Treasury do not cast a shadow—if it is not disrespectful to say so—but the noble Lord is perfectly right in suggesting, to use a common saying, that it is a pity to spoil the ship for a ha'p'orth of tar. If we can make our propaganda more effective by a larger expenditure upon telegrams, it would be folly to save a few hundred thousand pounds and to have less effective propaganda than we might otherwise have. If the Treasury have been parsimonious, the fact that the noble Lord has given a certain amount of publicity to the matter may encourage them to be less sparing in the permission which they give for public expenditure. Here again I will take care that attention is given to this matter, but I must not be taken as accepting the contention that there has been any real restriction on these telegrams. I accept the fact that the noble Lord is speaking on information given to him, but there may be another side to the question which he has raised.
In addition to the British Broadcasting Corporation, a great deal of use is made of the Press. I think that the noble Lord was inclined to suggest that we have no means of ascertaining the state of opinion upon which our propaganda ought to have influence in foreign countries. We do have the closest touch with these countries through our Press Attachés. The Press Attachés at our Legations and Embassies send a daily cable summarising the main topics of comment in the Press of the countries where they reside, and that, of course, gives an opportunity for the Ministry of Information to prepare and to distribute without any delay the counteracting information which it is hoped will make truth prevail. A very close watch is kept upon enemy propaganda, and I can assure the noble Lord from personal knowledge that day by day, with great and remarkable promptness, a survey is made of the Press and propaganda of enemy and other countries, which is immediately considered and as far as possible answered.
A third branch of our publicity is, of course, the film propaganda. Your Lordships are aware of the wide use that is made of British news-reels. This seems
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almost too obvious to need mention. These news-reels, though British in origin, are not, of course, sent out with the letterpress in the English language; they are done in the language of the country in which they will be exhibited. A special weekly news-reel is sent out to all our Colonies, so that there is a wide distribution of a fresh and up-to-date piece of information which is suitable for those parts of the British Empire. The use of pamphlets is an obvious step, and it is a use which is very familiar to those who are acquainted with our propaganda; but here again it is not desirable that too much should be said as to the use of this weapon, because pamphlets are written by a variety of persons in a variety of connections, and they are likely to be the more useful as they are designed to attract readers who perhaps would not be equally attracted by obvious propaganda put in front of their noses.
So far as home propaganda is concerned, we enjoy in this country the happiness of finding plenty of courage and resource that are native to our people. It is not necessary to stimulate them: they want to be sustained and supported by facts, as the noble Lord has said; but fortunately propaganda at home is a very different question from propaganda abroad. We look at the practical aspect of this question; that is to say, the Ministry of Information is careful to present and to expound to the best of its ability the Government policy, and to release and distribute the information which the public desire to have on matters in which they are interested. For the rest, we may place full confidence in the determination of our people not to be the victims of rumours or of any propaganda.
I have tried briefly, as the noble Lord was brief, to describe the steps that are being taken to present the British case. I am well aware of the feeling, which I myself have sometimes shared, and I am sure the Ministry of Information has sometimes shared, that somehow or other we are not naturally so adept or successful at propaganda as some other nations. Possibly that may arise for the reason that the noble Lord mentioned—namely, that we are inclined, and determined indeed, to adhere more strictly to the truth than propagandists of other countries. Truth is great and will prevail, and although there may be a time-lag, which

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sometimes may make us a little impatient, if we persevere with the presentation of facts we are certain in the end to succeed better than if we resorted to lies and prevarications. Nobody has any doubt that the Ministry of Information is not guilty of that mistake. I began by saying that we need to give constant attention to the steps taken in this connection, and I can assure the noble Lord that his observations and the comments that have been made will be useful in directing attention to points upon which there may be possibly some dissatisfaction in some quarters.
With reference to the question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Davies, of course, the British Council is not under the Ministry of Information. As I told him last night, and as I can now confirm, there is no present intention of combining the two, and indeed my noble friend Lord Snell tells me that there is no desire, so far as he knows, on the part of the British Council to be amalgamated with the Ministry of Information. It is doing good and useful work. It is under the Foreign Office, and it is the intention of the Government that for the time being it shall continue to operate under the general direction of my noble friend Lord Halifax.
LORD ADDISON: I should like to thank the noble Viscount for his statement and, in asking leave to withdraw the Motion, I may say that, owing to the briefness of my remarks, I am taking the opportunity shortly of sending to the noble Viscount a memorandum containing the suggestions which I omitted in what I said.
VISCOUNT CALDECOTE: My Lords, I shall be most grateful, and I will convey that to my right honourable friend the Minister.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

THE WESTERN COMMAND.
LORD DAVIES: My Lords, I should like to ask the first question I have put on the Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government whether in view of the wide area at present covered by the Western Com-
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mand and the special conditions existing in Wales they will consider establishing, as in the case of Scotland, a separate Military Command for the Principality; and whether they are now in a position to make any statement regarding the formation of a Welsh Division.]
LORD CROFT: My Lords, we are unaware of such special conditions in Wales as would necessitate breaking up the existing organisation of the Western Command, which is, in fact, not the largest Command in point of geographical area. With regard to the second part of the noble Lord's question, this is not quite understood, as there are already two Welsh divisions in existence, the 38th and the 53rd.

AUXILIARY MILITARY PIONEER CORPS.
LORD DAVIES: My Lords, I beg to ask my second question.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask his Majesty's Government whether it is proposed to re-arm the five companies of the Auxiliary Military Pioneer Corps, consisting of friendly aliens employed with the B.E.F. in France, when the combatant Divisions and Home Guards have been re-equipped; and whether in future these companies will enjoy the same status as other companies in this Corps.]
LORD CROFT: My Lords, in view of the good work carried out by the friendly alien Auxiliary Military Pioneer companies during the operations on the Continent, and more especially in the latter part of the operations in France, the question of altering the war equipment to include arms is at present under discussion. The Home Guards will first have to be equipped.

ASSETS OF THE BALTIC STATES.
LORD DAVIES: My Lords, I beg to ask my third question.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government if they can state whether securities and assets were lodged in this country by the Governments of the Baltic Republics before they became associated with the U.S.S.R.; whether the

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ban upon the transfer of these assets will now be removed; and whether they are yet in a position to make a statement on this question.]
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT SIMON): My Lords, I am not quite sure that I understand the first part of the noble Lord's question. The securities and assets affected by the Order in Council to which he refers are all those held in this country for any purpose by any person or body in the three Baltic States, and not merely those belonging to the Governments of these States and lodged here by them. I presume, however, that the noble Lord has in mind the assets which the Baltic State Banks entrusted to banks in this country. These, like the other Baltic assets, are still detained under the Order in Council; and, as discussions involving them are still proceeding with the Soviet Government, I regret that I am not yet in a position to make a statement on this question.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, as my noble and learned friend is aware, there is a lot of uneasiness about the delay in settling this matter, and much satisfaction
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will be felt by many people in this country if it can be quickly dealt with.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I do not myself know the circumstances in detail, but, as I have already said, discussions are still proceeding with the Soviet Government, and I imagine that it is necessary to reach an agreement. As the noble Lord will be aware, the Defence Finance Regulations contain a general provision which restricts the sending of assets in different forms out of the country, and therefore, of course, some special arrangement has to be made.

SECRET SESSION.
LORD SNELL: My Lords, I beg to move that the further sitting of the House this day be secret.
Moved, That the further sitting of the House this day be secret.—(Lord Snell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to and ordered accordingly.
The Official Reporter then withdrew.
House in Secret Session.
House adjourned.