Lords Sitting of 5 September 1940

Preamble
Reassembling after the Recess, the House met at four of the clock, the EARL OF ONSLOW on the Woolsack.

DEATHS OF PEERS.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DOMINION AFFAIRS (VISCOUNT CALDECOTE): My Lords, I regret to have to place on record that since we last met we have lost by death the services of two members of your Lordships' House who had rendered eminent public service, Lord Strickland and Viscount Home of Slamannan. At the same time I regret to record that another member of your Lordships' House, Flying Officer Lord Shuttleworth, has been reported missing for some time, after a fight in the air, and I fear that no hope can now be entertained of his survival. I am sure your Lordships will desire me to express your sympathy with the relatives of these noble Lords in their bereavement.
LORD ADDISON: My Lords, I am sure we all wish to be associated with the expressions used by the Leader of the House. Particularly, perhaps, I might be allowed to associate myself with what he has said regarding Lord Horne, because for some time it was my privilege to be a colleague of the noble Viscount, who rendered, as we all know, distinguished national service.

THE WAR SITUATION.
LORD ADDISON: My Lords, may I ask the Leader of the House whether he has any statement to make on the war situation?
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (VISCOUNT HALIFAX):My Lords, my noble friend has asked me to reply. It is almost exactly twelve months since the outbreak of war, and we may perhaps ask ourselves how we stand after this first year. Many things have happened which we did not expect, and the war has spread into lands with which, in its origin, it appeared to have no concern. But at
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least the progress of the war up to date, and not least the methods of our enemies, in dragging into the whirlpool their innocent and peace-loving neighbours, violating their neutrality, and destroying their independence, have served to make all the clearer to our own people of the Empire, to the inhabitants of Europe, and to the peoples across the oceans the avowed purpose for which we entered into the war.
To-day our own attention is naturally focussed upon the war which is being waged from the air against us here; but before I come to speak of that, I should like to take rapid stock of the swiftly moving events of the last few weeks in parts of the world hitherto not directly touched by the war. Your Lordships will be aware of the recent developments which have disturbed South-Eastern Europe, the outcome of which is still not clear. On June 26, your Lordships will remember, ten days after France had asked for an armistice, the Soviet Government presented an ultimatum to Rumania demanding the immediate return of Bessarabia and the cession of the northern part of Bukovina. The Rumanian Government yielded to that demand, and on June 28 Soviet troops marched into the ceded provinces. Four days later Rumania renounced the British guarantee and proceeded to demonstrate her subservience to Germany by a series of measures directed against the interests of this country. These measures I need not enumerate. It will, perhaps, suffice if I say that the Rumanian Government have been acting in a manner directly detrimental to British shipping and British oil interests in Rumania. In view of these actions His Majesty's Government have informed the Rumanian Government that so long as our interests are treated in this fashion, it is impossible for our trade with Rumania to thrive, and we have made it clear that we feel ourselves entitled by way of reprisal to hold up Rumanian ships.
Meanwhile Rumania's requital for throwing herself into the arms of Germany and renouncing the British guarantee has been quick and bitter. After abortive bilateral negotiations with Hungary, the Rumanian Government were summoned by Germany and Italy on August 29 to Vienna, where they were forced to accept an arbitral award—if

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such it can be called—imposed by the Axis powers. Under this award Rumania was forced to cede about two-thirds of Transylvania and to evacuate the ceded territory within fifteen days. As we have all seen, the decision to cede Transylvania has been followed by disturbances in Bucharest and various other provincial centres and by an attempt to seize Government buildings in various Rumanian towns. The Rumanian Cabinet resigned yesterday and the King entrusted General Antonescu, former Minister of National Defence and ex-chief of the Rumanian General Staff, with the formation of a new Government. In return for the sacrifice of one of the most precious parts of the Rumanian motherland Rumania has received a guarantee from the Axis powers of what is left of Rumanian territory, and I have no doubt at all that Rumania is under no illusions as to the value of that guarantee.
I might perhaps explain to the House what attitude His Majesty's Government take towards this Rumanian-Hungarian settlement and towards other settlements reached under duress in time of war. We have, as your Lordships are well aware, never supported a policy based on a rigid adherence to the status quo. On the contrary, we have lent our support to the principle that we should be favourable to a modification of the status quo, always provided that such modification is just and equitable in itself and is reached by means of free and peaceful negotiation and agreement between the interested parties without aggression or compulsion. It is for that reason that His Majesty's Government are able to regard with satisfaction the conversations which have also been proceeding for some weeks between Rumania and Bulgaria in regard to the question of the Southern Dobrudja. It was stated on August 21 that Rumania had agreed in principle to the cession of this territory with its 1912 boundaries; and His Majesty's Government hope that from these discussions a final and amicable solution of that particular problem may be arrived at. It equally follows that we are unable to accept the settlement now announced of the Hungarian-Rumanian dispute over Transylvania since that settlement is the result of a dictation by the Axis Powers imposed on Rumania under duress. We do not pro-
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pose during the war to recognise territorial changes unless these have been evidently and freely agreed between all the parties concerned. I have no doubt all of us in this House hope that at the end of the war there may be a general settlement on lines so just and equitable as to give hope of its durability and to that end His Majesty's Government will use all their influence.
Meanwhile, further south in the Balkan Peninsula, Herr Hitler's apprentice appears to have had it in mind to try out on his own the well-known Nazi policy of threat and intimidation, and towards the middle of August Signor Mussolini began to develop an agitation against Greece, well backed by troop movements, and no doubt timed to reach a climax at the same moment as Herr Hitler might launch his attack against this country. Certainly nothing could have been more devoid of substance than the trumped-up charge upon which this agitation was based. Two months before an Albanian brigand had been assassinated on Albanian soil by enemies from among his own people. The assassins had fled to Greece, where they were arrested. The question of extradition of these men was under discussion between the Greek and Italian Governments, when Signor Mussolini suddenly found it convenient to convert this common criminal into, as he called him, an "Albanian patriot, basely murdered by the Greeks."
Threats in the Italian Press were followed by Italian troop concentrations and these concentrations were followed by the cowardly torpedoing of the Greek cruiser "Helle" as she lay before the island of Tenos on the occasion of the great annual Feast of the Assumption on August 15, to which thousands of sick pilgrims flock from all over Greece in the hope of a cure. Such acts and such threats might intimidate a less courageous people, but it is greatly to the credit of the Greek Government and people that they have remained perfectly calm in the face of these dangers and provocations, resolved to maintain their neutrality and to give no pretext to their neighbour through any unneutral act, but at the same time determined to defend their own integrity and independence against all comers. The attitude of His Majesty's Government to Greece of course remains as it was defined by my right honourable

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friend the Lord President of the Council, then Prime Minister, in his speech of April 13, 1939, when he said that:
"In the event of any action being taken which clearly threatened the independence of Greece…, and which the Greek… Government…considered it vital to resist with their national forces, His Majesty's Government, would feel themselves bound at once to lend the Greek… Government…all the support in their power."
Beyond the boundaries of Europe also events have moved swiftly and there have been notable developments in some of the French Colonies, in which His Majesty's Government are naturally interested. We have had reports that certain demands were presented to the Government of Indo-China by a Japanese military mission there, and that these demands were refused by the French authorities. On receipt of that information His Majesty's Ambassador at Tokyo was asked to draw the attention of the Japanese Government to the reports that we had received, and, at the same time, to remind them of the interest of His Majesty's Government in the preservation of the status quo in Indo-China. Your Lordships have no doubt seen the report in the Press of the statement made by Mr. Cordell Hull in which he declared that this was also a matter to which the United States Government attached importance.
We have naturally welcomed the decision of certain French overseas territories to adhere to General de Gaulle and the cause of Free France. Those Colonies which have already declared themselves include the New Hebrides and French Oceania in the Pacific, where a plebiscite resulted in an almost unanimous vote for General de Gaulle, while in Africa the territories of great importance of French Equatorial Africa and the French Cameroons have also declared themselves for Free France, and General de Gaulle's representatives have taken over the administration. It may well be that others of the French Colonial territories will follow their example and rally to the same cause.
Now, my Lords, if I may, I would say a word upon the subject which was made known to the world on Tuesday last, the day before yesterday, when the news was simultaneously published in Washington and in London that as the result of Notes exchanged the day before between the
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United States Government and His Majesty's Government, fifty American destroyers were to be transferred at once to us and that His Majesty's Government had accorded defence facilities, as had indeed been previously announced, on the basis of 99-year leases, to the United States in Newfoundland, Bermuda, the Caribbean and British Guiana. The Agreement that is embodied in these Notes, which I think speak for themselves, provides practical means of increasing simultaneously the defence capacity both of the United States and of the British Commonwealth with its millions of British subjects, let us not forget, in the Western Hemisphere, each party to the transaction contributing materially and effectively to the security of the other.
The underlying principle of the Agreement is that of a mutual recognition of the value of sea power as a shield against aggression, and certainly I need not emphasize in this House the importance to us at the present time of the acquisition of the destroyers. Ever since the outbreak of war, in face of all the elements of nature and of all the machinations of the enemy, our destroyer flotillas have continued to discharge the heavy responsibility of keeping open the highways of the ocean for the Mercantile Marine, to whose courage also we owe much, and the impending arrival of these new flotillas in British waters is very welcome to us not merely as a reinforcement of our own defences but also as providing the means of developing the striking power of our sea forces in other theatres of war. The other result of the Agreement is of course to provide a major contribution to the national security of the United States and to its ability to strengthen what I believe is now called hemispheric defence in co-operation with the other nations of the Americas.
As my right honourable friend the Prime Minister pointed out in a speech he made in another place on the 20th August, the interests of the United States and of the British Empire so far coincide as to require that the former should have facilities for the naval and air defence of the Western Hemisphere. The lease facilities which are set out in the White Paper are paralleled of course by the discussions now proceeding between the United States and Canada; and the

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acquisition of the similar facilities which are being made available in the Caribbean and British Guiana will of course have a very considerable value in providing for the effective protection of the Panama Canal, that vital strategic link between the Atlantic and Pacific.
The fact that the leases are to be for a period of ninety-nine years ensures that this Agreement, concluded as I have said for the advantage of both parties, shall not be of a merely passing or ephemeral kind. No question of any transference of sovereignty arises, and the Governors of the territories in which concessions are being made, as also His Majesty's Government in Canada, have been consulted at every stage and have fully concurred in what has been done. I think it is also true to say that, from all the reports reaching me, the Agreement has been received with warm approval and cordiality by the peoples directly concerned. Certainly it is true that this Agreement stands in singular contrast to the more tortuous processes by which the totalitarian Powers seek to enlarge their sphere of domination at the expense of others. Apart from its immense material significance, the whole transaction to my mind does illustrate how successfully freedom-loving societies, mutually confident in each other's purpose, can reach decisions which may sub-serve the cause of all peoples who desire to live together honourably and at peace.
Meanwhile our own island, now an outpost of freedom, has become the centre of a vast battle. Throughout July and early August the German Air Force was engaged in making good the losses sustained during the battle of France—air losses inflicted for the greater part by the Royal Air Force—and in concentrating on new bases close to the Channel and to the United Kingdom. With this concentration and refitting complete it became possible for the first time for the enemy to launch the full weight of his bomber force—short-range as well as long-range—against this country and to accompany these raids in the daytime by strong fighter escorts. The result of course has been twofold: first to increase the weight of attack, and secondly to increase the difficulty of dealing with it. Exactly four weeks ago the enemy launched the first of a series of massed attacks which have continued
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without any serious intermission ever since. Every part of our air defence system has been called upon to play its part and every part has done what was expected and required of it. The greatest burden of the battle, of course, has fallen upon the Fighter Force, which almost hourly since the battle began has been called upon to intercept and engage wave after wave of enemy aircraft.
As was said in this House before we adjourned, the achievements of this force in the face of an enemy greatly superior to it in numbers have surpassed all our expectations. In the space of these last four short weeks more than 1,200 enemy aeroplanes have been destroyed for certain and many hundreds more have been severely damaged. No Air Force—there are noble Lords who can speak with authority on this subject—however strong, can sustain such losses as these with composure. But there is as yet no slackening in the attack and the great numerical strength of the German Air Force has enabled it to replace its casualties and to continue the assault. The principal aim of these attacks is clearly to beat down and crush our air defences, but so far these attempts have failed. The material damage inflicted has been small in relation to the size of the forces engaged and at no point have the defences failed to hold the enemy in check. But, my Lords, while we may on this ground feel confidence, let us make no mistake. The battle is very far from being over and there are indeed signs that it may shortly be intensified. No one with any knowledge of the issues involved can doubt that one of the decisive battles of the world is now being fought out at this moment in the air over Britain and Germany. While we have no doubt of the outcome I also have no doubt that a special and unremitting and concentrated effort in every quarter of this country continues to be called for.
We have, as I have said, many reasons for solid and for sober confidence. Many of our Air Force stations have been the subject of heavy attack, but sound organisation and skilful precautions have enabled them to continue to operate with scarcely a pause, and the control of the fighters, of the guns, of the searchlights and of the balloons has operated throughout with the most admirable precision. The Bomber Command, aided by the

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lengthening hours of darkness, has been enabled to attack an ever-widening range of military objectives in Germany and in Italy. Production both here and in the United States has continued to increase. The training of pilots, of crews and of ground personnel proceeds at an ever-increasing tempo and thus steadily does our strength in the air develop. As we stand at a critical stage of this air battle we can see every reason for confidence but none for complacency. The Royal Air Force we believe will answer every call made upon it, but let us not forget that the whole effort of our people is required to back it up and the last ounce of effort is called for from that multitude of workers upon whom the vital supplies for our Forces depend.
Our own work on the Home Front, whether here or in the factory or in the countryside, which may often seem tedious and pedestrian in comparison with that of the Royal Air Force or of the other armed Forces, is in effect directly related to it and perhaps in its way just as vital. Let us therefore put into the work which we are doing the same determination, instant readiness, and courage in the fare of danger—since in these days it may always come the way of any of us—as they are hour by hour putting into theirs. It is a rare example to us all, of which I am quite sure that the country will not be unworthy. The enemy knows perfectly well that our effort must be continual, and I have no doubt that he hopes to disorganise that effort and to interfere with our productive work by continuous "nuisance" raids. We must see to it that that does not happen. The Government are at this moment considering whether some revision of the system of public warnings may not be desirable and possible. The problem is not an easy one; it is, of course, to combine the need for some warning of danger that is immediate and real with that which all our people will recognise to be their first essential duty, of not allowing the production of material vital for our Fighting Forces to be interfered with unnecessarily. I hope that it may be possible for His Majesty's Government to make an announcement on that matter in the very near future.
If it is our duty, as it is, to see that the line of the Home Front is unbreakable, we have not witnessed a year of war with-
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out learning something of the methods by which the enemy would attempt to break it; and perhaps in that connection I may say a word or two about a matter on which I know that many of your Lordships have felt a good deal of concern, and with regard to which the noble Lord, Lord Newton, has a question on the Paper. I refer to the treatment of enemy aliens. I would ask that this matter should be viewed in the broad perspective that does, I think, surround the truth of it. In May and June we had before us the example of countries overthrown overnight, and we knew that in that overthrow resident aliens of enemy nationality had often played no inconsiderable part. Despite the obvious differences between conditions in those countries and in our own, His Majesty's Government felt that the crisis at that time did call for severe precautionary measures; and in face of what was then the acute danger of invasion, it became necessary to depart from the earlier policy, which had been to leave German nationals in general free, while combing out from the general body so left free those who were thought to be dangerous.
Instead of that, under the pressure of those times we resorted to the other method of adopting general measures of internment subject only to exemptions on special grounds. Personally, I cannot doubt that in those circumstances the safety of the State did demand the adoption of that second alternative, although we knew perfectly well, and stated publicly at the time, that it would necessarily involve hardships to many who were good friends of our cause. But that process of combing out those for whose release there are special grounds goes on, and I hope that it will be increasingly possible to adopt a liberal policy of release in the altered circumstances in which we now find ourselves. I quite understand that some of your Lordships have felt justifiable impatience to see the release of this or that alien whom they may feel that they know personally to be well disposed, and they may well wish that the whole process of release should, therefore, be speeded up. With that wish I think every member of His Majesty's Government would find himself at one; and it was, as I have said, with great regret, and only under military necessity, that we adopted the policy of general internment.

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I would add that any modification of that policy, such as we hope to see, must, of course, continue to take account of military requirements and necessity, and we must face the fact that, whatever modification of the internment policy may prove possible, and however rapid it may be possible to make the process of sorting out persons for release, there will for a long time be many people—indeed, there may be some until the end of the war—who are in fact devoted to our cause but who nevertheless are not let out and left at liberty. To them we would say that the fact that they remain interned does not necessarily carry any imputation that His Majesty's Government consider them as enemies.
Moreover, we know well that we have with us in this country and overseas, working and fighting side by side with us, foreign contingents drawn from our Allies who share exactly the same ideals by which we are moved. They have given up everything—their homes, and all opportunity of returning to them, as far as we can see, at present—rather than abandon the struggle against the enemies of mankind. As the days pass these men from Poland, Czecho-Slovakia, Norway, Holland, Belgium and France are doing their full share with the most conspicuous gallantry in the battle which we are waging together. Every day we see fresh evidence of the refusal of these people to be daunted by the physical force of which their countries have been victims. I do not know whether you have noticed in the last few days, for example, the demonstrations of loyalty and of affection which took place here and in many parts of the world—even in territory now occupied by the enemy—on the national occasion of the birthdays of the sovereigns of Norway and of the Netherlands. By such means, in part, is expression given to those things which we all know to be at stake in this conflict for the freedom of men. These are things of the spirit that do not die at the will of any dictator; and just as Herr Hitler will never begin to understand them, so we are confident that he will never be able to destroy them.
4.50 p.m.
LORD ADDISON: My Lords, the feeling in my mind, as I listened to the noble Viscount, was first and foremost an appre-
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ciation of the value of Parliament. It is a great tribute to our institutions that a member of His Majesty's Government should frankly and freely take the people into his confidence by talking to them like this. It is this freedom, which our Parliamentary institutions enshrine and typify, that I think does more than anything else to solidify the common will to work together for victory; and it has a spiritual strength and appeal, which was referred to in the last sentence of the noble Viscount, which must be far stronger than any chains a dictator can impose.
I will not say much as to the statement of the noble Viscount, but as an illustration of the changeableness of this war and of the continued element of the unexpected, the fact that after only a fortnight's interval so many new events are presented to us show how rapidly things are moving. The only thing that is not changing, thank God, is the resolution of the British people. But when other matters are looked at in their relations to one another I think we shall conclude hereafter that the most noteworthy event of this fortnight has been the Agreement with the United States. It is surely a great and historic event, the importance of which in the future history of the relations between ourselves and the United States will become apparent. More than that, as an example to the rest of the world it will be of immeasurable and incalculable importance in history.
I was glad to hear what the noble Viscount said about the rallying of certain French Colonies to the Free French Forces. On that I would only express the hope that His Majesty's Government will spare no effort to assist Frenchmen who are similarly disposed in other parts of the world to follow these good examples. As to the tragic events in Rumania, I do not think it would be possible to add anything suitably to what the noble Viscount said. The Rumanians have had a bitter and swift experience of what the value of the protection of the Axis is, and I should think it is quite likely that they are not at the end of their troubles. I am glad that Greece, so far, has preserved a stiff back, and there again I hope that His Majesty's Government will continue to fortify that resolution by all means in their power.
We have all been reminded of the battle that takes place in the skies above

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us and, if I remember rightly, on the last occasion we met we all paid a tribute to our heroic airmen. Our obligation and the obligation of the world to them continues. I need say no more on that, but I would like to refer to the more homely aspect of this matter, to which I was very glad indeed the noble Viscount alluded, and that is the effect of what are called "nuisance raids." Many people are somewhat perplexed as to what they ought to do when the sirens sound. One thing I am quite sure nobody wants to do is to play the enemy's game and to stop useful work when there is no occasion for stopping. After all, we all have to take a certain amount of risk, and it is not easy, on paper, to say precisely where common sense would tell one to keep at work and where ordinary good sense would tell us to stop work and seek shelter elsewhere. But I think it is of first-rate importance in the maintenance, not only of the national output but of the good temper of the people, that, as soon as possible—so far as it is possible—we should have a better understanding as to how our warning systems are to operate. It really is most important. The noble Viscount said it would not be very long before a statement was made. Well, I sincerely hope that means literally what it says. It should be very soon, because everybody wants to "keep at it," and nobody wants to be leaving his work unnecessarily or to be getting out of bed at night and going to some other place if it does not matter. Therefore it is very important that a better policy should be developed. Of course I am not attributing any blame: nobody does that. We have to learn by this bitter experience how to work these things, and I have not the slightest doubt-that, as we do in other things, we shall find that our wholesome national sense will develop a good working arrangement. That is the best we can say at the moment.
There is one matter to which the noble Viscount did not refer, and it arises a little out of what he said as to the treatment of internees, which I am sure we all welcome: that is that side of the war effort which I think we ought to develop a great deal more in rallying to our support the distressed millions of the subjugated countries. I am putting a Motion on the Paper in about a fortnight's time to call attention to this matter, not in
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any hostile spirit at all, but because I think it is of first-rate importance that we should exchange views upon it. The thing that is uppermost, I should think, in the daily experience of every one of us who goes about his ordinary affairs as far as possible in an ordinary way is the temper and equanimity of the people. That is really magnificent; and whilst no tribute we can pay to the heroic airmen can be too high and equally must we acknowledge what we owe to the men of whatever branch of service and of the people who are working, without being intimidated, in our factories, we must first and last pay tribute to the endurance and resolution and cheerfulness of the mass of the people.
5 p.m.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, on behalf of noble Lords on these Benches I desire to thank His Majesty's Government for the comprehensive statement to which we have just listened, and to express, as a matter of course, our continued and full support of the policies that are being pursued. That statement was animated by a spirit both of confidence and of determined resolution which is undoubtedly in key with the desires of the nation. Reference was made by the noble Viscount to the treatment of so-called enemy aliens, although many of those concerned are far from being enemy aliens. It is not only the policy adopted that has caused so much concern, but perhaps even more the manner in which it is applied. The Home Secretary has himself said that many deplorable things have occurred—grave words coming from a responsible Minister. There unquestionably has been gross administrative inefficiency in carrying out the general policy on which His Majesty's Government decided. Apparently it was especially in the War Office, in the early stages, that that inefficiency occurred, and I hope that Ministers will make careful inquiry into the persons who were directly responsible and who unquestionably are deserving of grave censure.
The noble Viscount made special reference to Greece, and what he said will, I am sure, be endorsed by your Lordships. There has been a long-standing friendship between the peoples of Greece and of this country, and among the Greeks, as anyone knows who has travelled through

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that country, there is a feeling of real good will towards Great Britain, going far back into the history of both countries. We have all seen with concern the threats, and indeed the blows, that have been levelled against Greece by her aggressive neighbour. We hope she will not be involved in war, but if she is, as the Government have clearly indicated, this country will go to her assistance with all the opportunities that we can command. I have seen it stated that the Italian Navy has taken as a new motto the inscription we may see on the railway carriage windows in Italy, "E pericoloso sporgersi"—"It is dangerous to put your head out." But if Italy should extend the naval war in the Eastern Mediterranean, it might give opportunities to the Royal Navy of which it will not be slow to avail itself.
As the noble Lord who has just spoken has already said, apart from actual military events, and especially the great air battle which is now proceeding, the most important occurrence, by far, of these recent weeks has been the conclusion of the Anglo-American Agreement. That will have been received throughout the nation with the deepest satisfaction. History has left the British Empire with many naval bases scattered throughout the world, some of them the consequence of vigorous pioneer efforts of emigrants, some the result of past contests; but the United States has no such bases in the Western Atlantic, and they are strategically and tactically more essential than they have ever been, in these days of submarine warfare, with total attacks on commerce, and air warfare, with onslaughts on civilian populations. No doubt the United States might be able to obtain such bases by bringing pressure to bear on small weak countries in the Western Atlantic, or by purchase, or even in the extreme case by conquest, but it does not desire to take any of these courses. It is right that we, from the abundance of our territory, should proffer these military facilities of which the United States stands in need.
I am glad there is to be no question of monetary payment being requested from America for these long leases. In view of the history of the War Debt question, it would have been a wrong course to have contemplated for a moment the pay-
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ment of any cash consideration for these facilities. Even without the destroyers we ought to have been glad to meet the wishes of the United States by conceding naval and air bases on the other side of the Atlantic, but the transfer of these destroyers is of course most welcome, particularly as they are the naval arm of which at the moment we stand chiefly in need. This historic Agreement will be most welcome to Canada and Newfoundland, and, if it should be found desirable to adopt similar measures in the Pacific, I feel certain that Australia and New Zealand would find that also a welcome step, as increasing their own future security and stability. If in the American Hemisphere from North to South the peoples had been as militarist and aggressive as some of the peoples are on the Continent of Europe, this troubled planet would be now in an even worse case than it is. Whatever strengthens the United States strengthens the cause of human liberty and world peace, and for that reason especially we cordially welcome this Agreement.
5.7 p.m.
VISCOUNT TRENCHARD: My Lords, may I intervene for a moment in this debate? I have recently, by the kindness of the Secretary of State for Air, been allowed to go round and visit most of the squadrons and aerodromes in this country, and I have seen some of them twice and three times while they have been actively at work. I have said before that I never thought that our pilots would equal what was done in the last war, but I do not want to bore your Lordships with that again. As to the pilots, and not only the pilots, but the whole crews, the maintenance parties who are keeping these machines in the air, and who are sometimes forgotten, and also the instructors at the schools, who are a vital necessity and whose work is not always in the limelight and is very boring, though it is of the utmost importance—I say I have never seen anything so splendid as their spirit is. I have been at an aerodrome when numbers of German machines were coming over, and though a squadron had not been on duty these pilots came running or bicycling back from their billets outside in order to join in although it was not their turn. I have seen some of these bombing squadrons coming back from their long trips, and there is nothing to equal their keenness.

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If I may say one other word, the noble Viscount who made the Government statement talked of the great battle that is being fought over this country particularly, and then referred rather briefly to the subject of bombing. The battle that is being fought, as I see it, and which was bound to be fought—England being situated as it is—amounts to this. First of all, we have to bring down more of the enemy who come to this country than they bring down of ours who go to their country. That is the first half, of the battle. It does not matter what we lose so long as we keep that up. The second half of the battle is that our bombers going to Germany shall be more dangerous, and frighten and inconvenience the life of the nation there to a greater degree than the Germans do here. Situated as England is—an island with the sea all round us—we have this great advantage over every other country, that we have the Navy and the blockade; and the blockade plus the battle to which I have referred is bound inevitably to win the victory.

INTERNMENT OF ALIENS.
5.10 p.m.
LORD NEWTON: My Lords, I beg to ask His Majesty's Government how many alien civilians have been released from internment since the issue of the White Paper in July, No. 6217, and how many arrests and rearrests have taken place during this period. I have no intention of making a speech, but perhaps my noble friend who is to reply will be be able to give me an answer to this—namely, whether it is the case that there are now twenty-seven persons in the Home Office who really have the power of granting or refusing the liberation of the internees.
5.11 p.m.
VISCOUNT CECIL OF CHELWOOD: My Lords, before my noble friend replies I would very much like to say a word upon this question of aliens, because I admit I am still, very unhappy about it. My noble friend Lord Davies has a question the answer to which will be of great importance, but it is not only the question of the speed at which the internees are being released that is most important. There are a good many other questions which ought to be, and I hope are being, considered. It is not
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a question only of the policy involved, though I think the policy of the Government is wrong, but it is mainly the question of the administration of that policy, and among other things the speed with which information is given in answer to inquiries about particular cases.
I have had several cases brought to my notice and no doubt many of your Lordships have had others. One kind of typical case I will mention. A woman has a husband who is suddenly arrested—she does not know for what reason—and he is removed to an unknown camp. She thereupon writes and tries to find out what has happened to him, and hears vague rumours that he has been carried off to Canada. She thereupon writes to the Commandant of the camp and asks: "Is it true that my husband has been sent to Canada?" After some little delay she gets a reply to say that they have no record in the camp as to whether he was being sent to Canada or not. She then writes to me, and I sent her letter on to a quarter where I thought it would probably be attended to. The result was that almost immediately she received information that the man had been sent to Canada, and was then living in that country. I think that is an awful way of dealing with these things. The poor woman was in the greatest possible anxiety about it because she did not know what had happened to her husband, and thought that he might have been drowned in the "Arandora" disaster or something of that kind. She was quite unable to get information until somebody outside altogether intervened, and then under that pressure the information was given.
I have had also a number of other cases in which I thought it right to ask for information. The position is getting worse. It is more difficult to get a reply than it was. After all, a Member of Parliament, even if he is only a member of this House, has a positive right to a reply from the Minister if he makes an inquiry on a matter of the Minister's duty. We get no reply at all, no answer of any kind whatever, not even an acknowledgment. I do not want to charge the Minister of Home Security with discourtesy. I am sure that would be a most unfair charge, but I do say that it shows the total inadequacy of the machinery for dealing

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with these questions. That is what is really the trouble. There is not anything like the machinery that is necessary. In my judgment—I may be entirely wrong—there ought to have been a Minister definitely allotted to this subject when it was seen that it was going to be one of very great complexity and difficulty, and he ought to have had a proper staff to deal with it in a proper way with reasonable celerity and in a businesslike fashion.
So much for the administration. What I desire to say as to the policy—I do not need to repeat what has been said in this House—is that the policy is fundamentally wrong. It is based upon the principle that what matters is whether a person is a German or not, whereas what really matters is whether he is a Nazi or not. That ought to be the real test. Merely to imprison all the Germans would be as unreasonable as to imprison all the English or the French or the people of any other nationality. The question really is what is a person's attitude in the great controversy that is being fought out in this war. That is a matter which was investigated at the very start of the war, when a certain conclusion was arrived at, and persons were allowed not to be interned in consequence of that conclusion. Then many of them were interned without any kind of warning. I cannot believe that the emergency required that that step should be taken, nor do I believe that it was the right step to be taken, whatever the emergency was. I hope very much that now there will be greater liberality, as the Foreign Secretary promised, in the relief which is given in these cases.
I most earnestly beg the Government to reconsider the whole basis of this policy and decide upon a reasonable plan. The moment there is the slightest doubt what the attitude of a man or woman may be, then it is right to intern, but when there is no doubt it is fantastic to intern people who fled from their country because they could not stand the persecution and the danger to life and limb which was involved by remaining there. That is all I desire to say on that point, and I must not be led into saying anything else about what the Foreign Secretary stated, because that does not arise on this question, but I do hope the Government will really give this matter more attention than they have yet given to it.
5.17 p.m.
THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: My Lords, I feel bound to associate myself with what my noble friend has said not so much about questions of policy as questions of administration in regard to the difficult matter of these internees. It is useless now to consider and discuss the earlier policy. I fully understand the reasons which led the military authorities to insist upon even the internment of those whose circumstances had been carefully examined and who had been pronounced to be entirely friendly to this country and inimical to the Nazi system. All I want to do now is to call attention to the fact that still, in spite of all the admissions that have been generously made about the inadequacy of administration, these blots on administration continue in what is to me a most perplexing way.
I have to deal constantly with cases of this kind that come to me from all parts of the country. I find that the officials at the Home Office, including, and most of all, the Home Secretary himself, are always most courteous and most ready to recognise the justice of any case that is put before them, but unfortunate people who have not the same access to these high officials find the delays almost intolerable. Much time passes before an answer is given to the simplest possible question about one of these unhappy people. I am informed that wives still do not know whether their husbands have been taken to Canada or not. One of them was alluded to by the noble Viscount just now. I find that still, in what seems to me an unnecessary way, wives and husbands are kept separate from each other.
I particularly pressed some time ago upon the Home Secretary the desirability in the camps of keeping those who are admittedly anti-Nazi apart from those who are admittedly the friends of that system. It is almost intolerable that people who sacrificed everything because they could not endure the system under which they were living and came over here to get liberty from it should be compelled to associate day by day with those who are admittedly friends of that very system. The Home Secretary said he was taking steps to see that separation was made. I should like to know how far that has been consistently done. I hear no complaints about the camps themselves. In

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most cases gratitude is expressed by the inmates of the camps for the considerateness and kindliness of the Commandants and of the officers of the camps, but often there is a real difficulty because of inability to provide suitable employment for the kind of men interned. It is quite intolerable for a man who has occupied himself before he was obliged to come to this country in the work of a university, or of a scientific laboratory or a very important business, to be obliged to spend day after day and hour after hour without any chance of reasonable and fruitful employment. I should have thought that a little imagination would have enabled the Government to put that matter right.
Similarly, although I know it is almost impossible to make discriminations as to comforts within these camps, I cannot but think that there are cases of persons of real eminence formerly in their own country, cases of very distinguished people who might be allowed a little more latitude in the way of personal comfort than is perhaps required by the great mass of the interned. I should like to say that, in my judgment, what is wrong at present—I say nothing about the original policy—is not so much the desire of the Government to put matters right as the extraordinary slowness and cumbrousness with which they seem even now to be carrying out their own desire.
5.22 p.m.
LORD DAVIES,LORD DAVIES, who had given Notice that he would ask His Majesty's Government what steps have been taken to implement the assurances given by the Home Office that the cases of friendly aliens now in internment camps will be expeditiously dealt with, and what administrative machinery has now been created to deal promptly with this urgent matter, said: My Lords, I have a question on the Paper with regard to aliens and perhaps when the noble Duke replies to Lord Newton, he will be good enough to reply to my question at the same time. I cannot help feeling that the speech of the noble Viscount, the Foreign Secretary, was not as reassuring as one might wish. He said that he hoped the Government would initiate a more liberal policy in the future, but then he went on to qualify that by saying that even those amongst aliens who were devoted to our cause and who could not be in any sense
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regarded as our enemies might still have to look forward to a term of internment. I should like to ask the noble Viscount why, if these people are trustworthy, if they are not our enemies, we should wish to prolong their internment. Is there no service that they can render to us in the prosecution of the war and in the defeat of Nazism?
I gather from speeches which have been made in another place that similar assurances were made on August 22 last. As we have already been told, the machinery for carrying out these promises is woefully lacking and is very slow in its operation. I hope the noble Duke will be able to assure us when he replies that this machinery has been already expanded and that there will be far greater expedition in dealing with these cases in the future. So far as I can make out, there are two tests which the Home Office are going to apply. One is a test of trustworthiness, and the other is the test of serviceability, as to what help an alien can give us in the prosecution of the war. I cannot help feeling that a second test is superfluous. If a man or woman is untrustworthy, then no matter how clever that person may be, whatever gifts that person may possess, he or she is not a fit or proper person to assist us in any way in the prosecution of the war. I suggest that this test of serviceability is really superfluous if the test of trust worthiness is properly applied.
The second point I would like to bring to the notice of the noble Duke is this. Some time ago I ventured to put a question about internees who have served with our forces in France. These people, who I understand are called "prestataires," were originally enlisted by the French authorities at our request. They were transferred quite willingly, on their part, to British Pioneer units in France, contracts were actually signed and they were placed under the control of British officers. When some of these fellows managed to escape and landed in this country, they were promptly gaoled. Several of them were sent to Pentonville prison and some to one of the internment camps near Liverpool. Why they were dealt with in this manner when, at any rate, the majority of them had military papers, passes my comprehension. Why were they not sent to military camps where they could be sorted out

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and their statements and papers investigated? It seems entirely wrong that these men who had signed contracts and were doing military work for our Expeditionary Force should be dealt with in this most extraordinary and stupid way. I am grateful to the Home Office for having investigated the case of eight men who were interned at Huyton. Seven of them, I understand, have been sent back to a Pioneer unit, but I understand also that one of them, a corporal, was degraded the moment he got here. I should like to ask the noble Duke whether this degradation from the position of corporal to private was done because he was supernumerary in this particular unit or whether it was done because his papers had been lost and he could not therefore substantiate the fact that he had acted as corporal in France. I must not weary your Lordships with the large number of other cases which I have had brought to my notice, but I feel that the fact that there are so many of these cases shows how vital it is that they should be dealt with in the most expeditious manner.
There is only one other point I want to put to the noble Duke. A statement has been made in the Press which purports to arise out of the publication of a book, and which I really cannot believe. The only reason for my drawing the attention of the noble Duke to it this afternoon is that I hope that he will be able to give us a categorical denial of it and to tell us that the whole thing is absolute moonshine, for I cannot believe that it is true. The statement is as follows:
"It was credibly reported that complete lists of the refugees in the internment camps had been handed over to the Swiss Legation which represents the German Government in London. After all, complete lists of prisoners of war were sent to Berlin via the Swiss Legation, so why should not a complete list of the refugees be sent as well? This report, which has not been denied, indicates the mentality of certain officials in positions of responsibility; and while such a mentality exists in the Home Office or the War Office, it is totally impossible to consider seriously any plans for organising"
the services of refugees for warfare in Europe against the Nazis. I venture to ask the noble Duke whether there is the slightest truth in a statement of that kind, because I think that otherwise he should at the earliest opportunity, and speaking for the Home Office,
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repudiate it; for it is most damaging to our cause and most damaging to our reputation as a freedom-loving country, and as a country which would not give away any information about those who have sought refuge over here.
5.32 p.m.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA AND BURMA (THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE): My Lords, the noble Lord who has just sat down will scarcely expect me to answer the various questions of detail which he has raised, such as that of the degradation of a corporal from the French Army to the rank of private in the English, because they are not questions with which I can be expected to deal without notice of some kind. He described as extraordinary the treatment of the Germans in the service of the French Army who were temporarily detained at Huyton. I really think that he is being somewhat unjust to the authorities in this case. Here were eight Germans who arrived in this country wearing a uniform to which they were not entitled, and who described themselves as belonging to a corps to which in fact they did not belong. It seems to me not wholly unreasonable, at a moment of very great crisis, that these people should be detained pending inquiry. The inquiries were completed in the course of a very few days and, as soon as it was found that these men were in fact Germans in the service of the French Government, they were given the opportunity of enlisting in the corresponding corps attached to the British Army, and were released. One of them, as I told your Lordships on the last occasion when we discussed this matter, declined the opportunity to enlist and is still detained.
The answer to my noble friend who asked this question is that since the White Paper, Cmd. No. 6217, was issued on July 31, up to last Saturday, August 31—that is to say, in one month—some 7,000 applications for release have been examined by the Home Office, and 1,953, or rather over a quarter of these, have been found not to fall within any of the nineteen categories in the White Paper, and had therefore to be refused. Not quite so many were found to be eligible for release, but the release of 1,687 persons has been authorised.
VISCOUNT CECIL OF CHELWOOD: How many have actually been released?
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: 1,687.
VISCOUNT CECIL OF CHELWOOD: No, the release of 1,687 has been authorised. How many have actually been released?
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: I will come to that in a moment; it is a question of only a very few days. These persons included 1,501 Germans or Austrians—1,443 men and 58 women—and 186 Italian men, but the number does not include a considerable number of volunteers for the Pioneer Corps, who will be leaving, we hope, before very long, as soon as the military authorities can make arrangements to receive them; nor does it include a very considerable number of persons who were here on their way to America, and who may, when the American authorities can make the necessary arrangements, be able to proceed to America as emigrants.
Thus 3,640 applications have been decided during the period of a month. In addition, well over 3,000 other applications have been examined, but inquiries were found to be necessary in order to confirm the claim that the applicant came within a particular category. The necessary inquiries in these cases are in progress. The answer to the last part of my noble friend's question is that during the same period twenty-four Germans or Austrians—one man and twenty-three women—have been arrested for internment on the recommendation of Regional Advisory Committees. So far as my right honourable friend is aware, no re-arrests have been made during this period.
My noble friend asked me a question about the number of officials in the Home Office who are qualified to make decisions about release. I am informed that it would not be quite right to say that there are twenty-seven such officials. It is not possible to make an absolute division, because there are more who can make decisions where no difficulty arises, and where quite clearly an internee falls into a particular category, and possibly fewer who can make decisions where some difficulty arises. My noble friend will be interested to hear, however, that whereas the total administrative, executive and clerical staff dealing with this question
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was 202 on July 1, it was 320 on September 1; that is to say, there has been an expansion of over one third, and that expansion is still proceeding. I am also informed that the expansion has not yet had its full effect, in that the people who are being taken into the Department, and who are for the most part Consuls and people of that kind, with experience of foreigners, have not yet in many cases fully learned their work. The Department will be able to proceed with greater rapidity as time goes on.
My noble relative opposite referred to the question of delay. I shall come to that when I deal with the question by the noble Lord, Lord Davies, but there again I feel bound to make a defence of my right honourable friend. The volume of correspondence pouring into the Home Office is perfectly colossal, and it is a fact that many of these aliens—suffering as they do, of course, from every kind of mental stress and anxiety—set to work to pull every conceivable string on which they can lay their hands. I am told that in some cases letters from no fewer than thirty Members of Parliament, Peers, Prelates and other well-intentioned persons have been received on behalf of one single alien. Your Lordships can imagine that that great volume of correspondence must tend to clog rather than to accelerate the working of an already sorely-pressed Department. It is a fact that if those who receive correspondence on behalf of these aliens would find out from the anxious wife, or whoever it may be, whether she has already approached some other Member of Parliament, Peer or someone of that sort, and whether the matter is therefore already being dealt with, the work of the Department would be a good deal facilitated. My right honourable friend is taking steps to provide employment, and an increasing variety of employment is being found.
My noble relative referred to information. It is perhaps not fully known that my right honourable friend is circulating a Paper in the course of the next two or three days, I think, to make it more widely known that an Information Bureau has been set up. That has been made public, but it is perhaps not fully realised. The whereabouts of particular internees can be discovered by appealing to this Bureau, whose address is St. Stephen's House, and inquiries are being

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received in larger numbers as the fact that this Bureau exists becomes better known.
In answer to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Davies, your Lordships have already been informed of the appointment of a tribunal to advise the Home Secretary on applications under the new Category 19 included in the revised White Paper Cmd. 6223, which deals with Germans and Austrians who claim that by their writings or speeches or by their political or official activities they have consistently over a period of years taken a public and prominent part in opposition to the Nazi system, and are actively friendly towards this country and the Allied cause. Your Lordships have also been informed of the appointment of an Advisory Committee to consider the cases of Italian internees who fall within the categories of eligibility for release and to advise the Home Secretary whether any Italian eligible for release could be regarded as friendly towards this country and so sympathetic towards the Allied cause that he could safely be released without prejudice to the national interest. Both these Committees will include persons with a special knowledge of the life and politics respectively of Germany and Italy, and will be able to have the assistance of other persons with special knowledge who could give advice and information on the loyalties and sympathies of individuals.
With regard to machinery, applications for release are being dealt with by the Administrative Division of the Home Office ordinarily concerned with aliens, the staff of which, as I have just said, has been specially augmented, and my right honourable friend is satisfied that applications which are still coming in are being dealt with as promptly and expeditiously as is consistent with considerations of national security. Special arrangements have been made to ensure that when a camp Medical Officer certifies that release is necessary on urgent medical grounds, the necessary authority for release is issued within twenty-four hours, if necessary by telegram. In this connection I should like your Lordships to remember—and this deals with my noble relative's point—that the delay in effecting releases which is sometimes attributed to the Home Office is not infrequently due to the irregularity
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of the posts to the Isle of Man. Your Lordships will also appreciate that, even when the camp Commandant has received the documents, a short interval must occur during which the necessary preparations are made for collecting the property of the alien concerned, arranging for his journey, and so forth. All these small details must inevitably take time, and it cannot be expected that when a letter is received from the Home Office saying that the alien's release has been authorised, the alien will in fact arrive home the next morning. All possible steps are, however, being taken to expedite the procedure of releasing aliens as soon as they are found to be eligible for release.
To summarise the position, approximately one-tenth of the Category C aliens who were interned when the decision was taken to intern all aliens have been released. The cases of nearly double that number are under consideration now, because unhappily it is not always possible to accept the mere ipse dixit of the interned person. Inquiries have to be made as to whether in fact he is the individual described, because cases of giving wrong names have occurred. Arrangements have been made by which, as the applications for release under these different categories come in, the machinery can be made to work more smoothly and more expeditiously. There is the possibility of very considerable numbers going to the Pioneer Corps. That opportunity is open to all those of suitable age, and there is also the very considerable possibility of emigration to America. I do not say the position is to-day entirely satisfactory, but my right honourable friend has convinced me that the position is enormously better than it was a month ago, and I think the machinery is being steadily improved.
The most reverend Prelate asked a question about comforts. I have been through that particular question with my honourable friend the Under-Secretary, and I am bound to say that he convinced me that you would get into an almost impossible position if you began to make differences between internees. They are, I do not say luxuriously, but not badly housed, and, as the numbers are diminishing and congestion decreasing, the housing has improved. They are decently fed, many have considerable sums of money available, and the policy

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decided upon is to give them pocket money week by week from the funds kept by the camp Commandant. These are adequate to provide a reasonable standard of comfort. Stamps, cigarettes and sweets are available in the camp canteen, and the payments are on a uniform basis. I am bound to say I could well understand the case that the most reverend Prelate made, but I believe you would get into great difficulties if you had differentiation, and if the pocket money were not given on a uniform scale.
5.48 p.m.
VISCOUNT CECIL OF CHELWOOD: My Lords, I am not sure whether I caught from my noble friend the exact number who have actually been released. That seems to me to be the thing that matters. It does not matter to have got an authorisation for release if the aliens are still detained. Can my noble friend give me the actual figure of those who have been released? May I say two things about the delay? I have here a note of four typical cases which I will hand to my noble friend. I do not want him to make inquiry into these cases particularly, but it will show him the kind of thing that we are complaining of, and I am sure he would agree that we have a very strong case for complaint. If it is true that application ought to be made to this new body, I cannot conceive of any difficulty in the Home Office just sending over the application to the new Information Bureau, and letting the new body deal with it directly.
5.49 p.m.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, before the noble Duke gives a supplementary reply, may I ask a supplementary question? I have been informed, and I have reason to believe it is true, that a number of the passports and other documents, some of which are irreplaceable, that were taken from the aliens on the occasion of their internment have, in a considerable number of cases, been lost. The aliens have been in the Isle of Man. Before reaching the Isle of Man they had to surrender these documents, and now they have received a printed form to say that it is regretted that these documents have been lost. Is that correct, and, if so, are proper inquiries being made, and what action is being taken in respect of the persons who have been responsible?
LORD DAVIES: May I ask the noble Duke to reply to the question I asked about the lists of refugees being sent?
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: Such inquiries as I have made lead me to believe that there is no truth whatever in the statement. With regard to what my noble relative opposite asked as to the numbers released, there again I cannot give him an exact reply, but I am told the numbers are approximately the same. There may have been a delay of a few days, but the numbers actually released are approximately the same as the releases which have been authorised. There may have been a delay of a day or two, but in most cases no more.
VISCOUNT CECIL OF CHELWOOD: I am very glad to hear it.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: Will the noble Duke make inquiries about the papers I mentioned?
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: Yes.
5.51 p.m.
LORD RANKEILLOUR: My Lords, I am not sure that I was quite able to follow the noble Duke, and therefore I beg to ask what is the position of those who do not fall into any particular category. As I understand from his answer, the new Committee has the function of deciding whether persons fall into one category or another and also further questions as to their antecedents, but it must certainly be true that a great number fall into no category in particular. What is the procedure in regard to them? Clearly, many of them, if their history and record are looked into, would be just as eligible for release as some of those who fall into the categories. In this connection, my noble friend Lord Newton asked three weeks ago that Commissioners should be sent to the various camps who would have power either to release or to pass on a very strong recommendation for release after going into the matter on the spot. May I ask has anything further been done in that respect?
One further question. I have got complaints from people whose sons have been sent to Canada and they cannot communicate with them. Can they be sure, if they write to them, care of the Bureau at St. Stephen's House, that these letters

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will be delivered, and have the authorities here got proper lists of those who are in Canada with their home addresses here? That would ease matters very much in a great many cases.
LORD NEWTON: My Lords, I have no intention of commenting in detail on the statement made by my noble friend, but I confess that, like the two noble Lords who have spoken, I find considerable difficulty in understanding it. Even at this moment, I have not the least idea of the actual number of persons released, but I gather one thing, and that is that the apprehension which some of us expressed during the last debate with regard to categories has, unfortunately, been justified. I can understand that a lot of people have been unable to describe themselves as belonging to any particular category, and therefore they remain in custody. I go so far as to say that it is a mistake in principle to rely on categories only. A man's release ought to depend on his guilt or innocence.
5.53 p.m.
VISCOUNT CALDECOTE: My Lords, I do not wish to interrupt my noble friend, but these two questions are becoming a debate, and if my noble friend will allow me, with less experience, to say so, he is not, strictly speaking, in order in addressing your Lordships upon this question. I am not anxious to close down any proper questions which arise out of these two on the Paper, but, obviously, my noble friend who has replied already is placed in a position of considerable difficulty if the questions are enlarged into a debate on the whole subject. I suggest to my noble friend that, as there is no Motion on the Paper, he is not strictly in order, and therefore I hope he will be able to limit his observations.
LORD NEWTON: I shall be only too pleased to limit my observations. I was only doing what other people had been doing, if acting in an illegal manner. I have no desire whatever to prolong this debate, but I must warn my noble friend that we shall be obliged to return to this subject on another occasion.
LORD RANKEILLOUR: My Lords, this is an unstarred question, and the extension of the debate has been no greater than your Lordships have allowed
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on similar questions on many occasions. The question is put: How many aliens have been released from internment? It obviously arises, how man more ought to have been released, why more were not released, and so on. The whole discussion really has been, so far as I understand it, in accordance with the practice of your Lordships' House.

IRON AND STEEL BUILDINGS.
5.55 p.m.
LORD DAVIES: My Lords, my first question has already been answered, and I beg to ask the second one.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government whether the iron gates and railings recently erected at the headquarters of the Milk Marketing Board have been removed and utilized for war purposes and whether any steps are being taken to deal in a similar way with iron and steel structures in London and elsewhere erected for building schemes which have now been abandoned.]
THE MINISTER OF FOOD (LORD WOOLTON): My Lords, I have consulted the Minister of Supply, on whose behalf I am replying. The noble Lord is asking three questions here. The first is whether these gates have been removed, and the answer to that is in the negative. The second question is, have they been removed in order that they may be used for war purposes? There the answer is in the affirmative. They have been used for war purposes without being removed. We are in the peculiar position, I am advised, that this building is regarded as of importance from a security point of view, and if these gates and railings were removed then some fresh railings would have to be put up. I am sure the noble Lord would agree that, in these circumstances, it is better to keep the railings as they are.
The third part of the question is whether iron and steel structures in London and elsewhere, erected for building schemes which have been abandoned, are going to be taken down. My right honourable friend tells me that he has got a very considerable quantity of scrap from railings that are quite easily

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accessible, and thinks it inadvisable to take down these steel structures which can only be used for scrap purposes and which can, in certain eventualities, be very useful as buildings in case it becomes necessary, as the result of the process of the war, for other building accommodation to be found. In these circumstances, although he recognises he has full powers, aid will not hesitate to use them, to take this iron and make it into scrap, he considers that at the present time it is inadvisable that he should interfere with these buildings that are half erected. I hope the noble Lord will be satisfied that full inquiries have been made into the question that he has raised.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
5.59 p.m.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, my noble friend Lord Addison has had to leave the Chamber, and has requested me to ask the date on which we reassemble and what business will be taken. I have also to ask the Leader of the House a question which my noble friend had intended to ask when he made his remarks after the statement by my noble friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, and that is whether the leasing of these territories or bases to the United States of America will require legislation in your Lordships' House, and, if so, when it is proposed to present the Bills.
VISCOUNT CALDECOTE: My Lords, with reference to the last question which the noble Lord has asked, it is a question that naturally has not been overlooked. It is a question of considerable interest, not only to Parliament, but to constitutional lawyers. Attention has been given to it in the Departments, and, so far as I am able to express a final opinion at present, I think I am right in saying that it is not expected that United Kingdom legislation will be necessary. With reference to the date upon which your Lordships will again meet, the date will be September 17, and it is expected your Lordships will sit on that day and the two succeeding days. I am told that my noble friend Lord Davies has a Motion on the Paper, and there are also two Questions, but otherwise no business is fixed for those days.
LORD STRABOLGI: May it not be that the Government may find it desirable to make another statement on the progress of the war?
VISCOUNT CALDECOTE: I think it is quite likely another statement will be made on behalf of His Majesty's Government. That I assume may be taken almost without being expressed.
LORD STRABOLGI: But we meet definitely on the three days?
LORD NEWTON: My Lords, on the question of the adjournment, may I suggest to the noble Viscount that it would be much more convenient if we met at an earlier hour? What with the approaching black-out and raid alarms and so forth, it at all events would give us a better margin. It seems to me ridiculous to fix the meeting of this House for four o'clock when there is business on the Paper which will occupy several hours. I think I am right in saying that it would be for the general convenience of the majority of this House if we met habitually, say, at three o'clock or at the latest half past three.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: There is another point of view to be considered, and that is that many of us have a great many things to do and we find it difficult enough to get here even at four o'clock.
VISCOUNT CALDECOTE: My Lords, I should be glad to meet my noble friend Lord Newton if it was possible, but there is the judicial business of your Lordships' House to be taken, and that makes it practically impossible for us to meet until four o'clock. I think that indeed is a quarter of an hour earlier than it was customary to meet up to the time of the outbreak of war.

NATIONAL EXPENDITURE.
Message from the Commons for leave for the Lord Cornwallis to attend to be examined as a witness before the Sub-Committee on Army Services of the Select Committee appointed by that House on National Expenditure: Leave given for his Lordship to attend if he think fit; and a Message ordered to be sent to the Commons to acquaint them therewith.

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932.
Orders made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Act to the

Urban District of Church-Stretton;

Urban District of Halstead;

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Urban District of Northallerton;

Borough of Stamford:

Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and ordered to lie on the Table.
House adjourned at three minutes past six o'clock.