Lords Sitting of 20 November 1940

Preamble
The House met, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION AND BENEFIT (BYSSINOSIS) BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
LORD SNELL: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion which stands on the Order Paper in my name.
Moved, That Standing Order No. XXXIX be considered in order to its being suspended for this day's sitting.—(Lord Snell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

AYR BURGH ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Considered on Report (according to Order).
Then, Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended, Bill read 3ª, and passed.

THE HOME GUARD.
VISCOUNT BUCKMASTER VISCOUNT BUCKMASTER rose to call attention to the proposed changes in the organisation of the Home Guard; and to move for Papers. The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I am indeed anxious in present circumstances not to take up your Lordships' time if it can be avoided. I was therefore in some doubt as to whether I should put this Motion on the Paper or not. If we accept, as I believe we must, that in the course of next year our maximum effort will have to be exerted outside this country, weakening to a certain extent the defences here, and if we accept also that Hitler may realise he cannot win the war outside this island and may then be tempted, if not driven, to invade it, we are forced, in my view, to grant to the Home Guard an importance which cannot be denied. I this
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matter should have been debated in another place only yesterday, so that your Lordships have not had an opportunity of fully considering what was then said. I had understood it would have been debated in another place last Thursday, and my Motion would then have given your Lordships ample time to pass in review what transpired.
We have heard the new decisions of the Army Council, and in the main we must welcome them, but we may feel that in some respects they do not go quite far enough. In particular, we notice that the conditions of service are not to be altered. These conditions, to my mind, contain two essential weaknesses. One is that a member of the Home Guard can resign at fourteen days' notice; the other is that there is no power to compel him to attend instructional parades. This question of notice has been very fully discussed in your Lordships' House before, and I shall not labour the point now, except to say that, in practice, even the fourteen days' notice disappears. There have been cases—not many it is true—in which men have handed in their rifles, told the commanding officer they were going, and have gone. In such cases there is no proper action which the commanding officer can take. All of us admit that some right of resignation should be given, and I suggest to your Lordships that if the right to resign is limited to cases where the reason is a good one, and where the commanding officer gives his consent, then the Home Guard will have been very fairly dealt with.
If we deal with the problem of getting attendance for instructional parades we are of course confronted with the issue that always faces us when we are dealing with volunteer organisations. In some units attendance on parade is extremely good—90 per cent. In others unfortunately it is a bare 50 per cent. It is always difficult to select a time for these parades that will suit everyone, and I do not suggest that these men do not attend through lack of keenness. I think it is in some cases partly because they do not understand that the training is a most important part of the work of the Home Guard and they do not fully realise the seriousness of the duties that have to be undertaken. But be that as it may, your Lordships do not need telling by me that untrained men even in the Home Guard are of little use. They may, in fact,

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constitute a source of danger. This difficulty can be overcome if we are prepared to ask the Home Guard to sign a new agreement. I suggest that attendance on parade should be insisted upon, but that the parades should be spread over a reasonable period of time and that the prime consideration should be that the time fixed should, as far as possible, be such as will suit the men's convenience. If we could get an agreement on these lines, embodying also the right to resign for a valid reason and for no other, then I think we should have done more to strengthen the Home Guard than any other proposal which, at the moment, I can suggest.
Assuming that this is done, and that we get the men to attend these parades in full strength, we still have to consider the nature and extent of the training which they are to receive. I am sorry to say that in some units now that outposts have been drawn in, there is a tendency, like Caesar's, of old, to hibernate. They are satisfied with an occasional lecture and a church parade once a month. The enthusiasm of the Home Guard does not need kindling, but if the position is dealt with on these lines in that way, then that enthusiasm will be damped and will finally be extinguished. This question of training is a very vital thing. The Home Guard are not professionals and those who have had previous military experience find to their distress that to a large extent their knowledge is now out of date, and if they are to be adequately trained it can only be done if the Army makes itself responsible. I want to make myself clear. I do not suggest that the Army should do the training, but that the Army should be responsible for seeing that in fact training is done. There does exist at the present moment very real co-operation between the Army and the Home Guard.
In some cases this co-operation is not quite as willing as one would like it to be, but in most cases, especially in the area with which I am familiar, it is freely and generously given. I would like, if I may, to pay some tribute to the commanding officers who have given up their time to plan this training and also to those young officers, non-commissioned officers and men who have given up their time and sometimes their Sundays of their own
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free will to train these men. They do not ask for any reward but they have it in the very real gratitude and genuine appreciation which the Home Guard have shown them. None the less, even that is not enough because if the Home Guard commander asks for nothing, nothing in fact is done. In one case which I have in mind, there are two units side by side. In one the commanding officer has approached the Army and a full, interesting and active programme of training has been embarked upon. In the other nothing has been done. What is the result? The men are idle and now they are approaching their friends in the other unit asking whether they may join in the programme which has been prepared.
With your Lordships' permission, I would like to ask my noble friend a specific question upon this point. The War Office Instruction to Home Guards No. 14, 1940, says in substance that it is important that Home Guard units should have no doubts about the rôle allotted to them, and the kind of training to carry it out. Then it goes on—and this is the real point—
"This [training] is the responsibility of the military commander of the area in which the Home Guard unit is located."
I have not been able to find any military commander who has ever seen this pamphlet nor have I heard of one who would accept the responsibility referred to in it. Does the instruction in fact mean what it says, and if so, will my noble friend take steps to see that it is understood in this sense?
We can only welcome the provision that Commissions are going to be granted, yet something must be said in this connection. At the present moment the Home Guard has this virtue, that it can rid itself of its officers if they are not too exalted in their rank. Once they have been granted Commissions this would not be so easy. It would appear from such reports as one has seen of what took place in another place as if there is to be a Selection Committee comprised largely of members of the Home Guard who will select those to whom these Commissions are to be granted. Now one must remember—I regret to say—that some of these senior officers may not be efficient. There are units—I will give my noble friend specific information if he wishes—in which hardly a single man knows the

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name of the battalion commander. I know of one in which since last June the battalion commander has once only appeared and then at a formal parade. He has never attended any instructional parade or been present at any work which the men are doing. If a man of that type is to be one of the Selection Committee he surely cannot have the knowledge to pass judgment on the officers who are serving under him. I hope that difficulty can be overcome in some way. I dislike the idea of a unit selecting its own officers, but it might be that the subordinate officers anyhow should be allowed to express some opinion as to those who are to lead them. This question of leadership is almost as vital as training, and by it in fact the Home Guard must stand or fall.
I do not think that much need be said by me in regard to the question of equipment. That is coming forward well. There are some little shortages, small size boots being particularly difficult to obtain, but those are not matters of great moment. There are, however, two subordinate considerations in regard to equipment which might be mentioned. One is this: If you take a unit in which the outposts have been withdrawn, is it right that the men who never attend for parades should be issued with battle dress and overcoats? What use are they going to have for them? Would it not be a means of getting them to attend by refusing to issue these things unless they definitely undertake to attend instructional parades on receiving them? The other point is this. As your Lordships know, these men may have their equipment in their own homes. Many of them work in places remote from the district in which they would be called upon to serve if a crisis arose. Might it not be a prudent course to provide that in time of grave crisis, when invasion appears imminent, these men should be ordered to wear uniform and carry their rifles, as the Army do? In such case, if they left their own areas and were willing to join a Home Guard unit in the area in which they found themselves, they would be able to do so.
I have purposely been brief. I hope your Lordships will not feel that the views which I have put forward are mine alone. I would not have ventured to intrude my own personal opinions on your Lordships
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had they not been to some extent supported by others who have close and intimate knowledge of this subject. We know the spirit of these men and we know that their equipment is now modern—in fact, that their fire power in some cases is greater than that of the battalions of 1914. All we need do now is to see that they have a programme of training properly related to their needs, that they are obliged to undergo this training, and that they get the best leadership we can give them. Then if they are put to the test we need never be in doubt as to the answer that will be given.
THE EARL OF CLANWILLIAM: My Lords, may I intervene for one minute to make one or two remarks following the very interesting speech from my noble friend Lord Buckmaster? My noble friend referred to one particular point about the training of the Home Guard. He advocated that there should be compulsory parades for the Home Guard. I would ask you to remember that when the Home Guard was introduced into this country it was in order to quell what seemed the possibility of imminent danger of invasion. That was the reason why many of us came forward and offered our services. Many of us were many years over military age, but we were asked to come forward and take our places in the ranks and do what we could to meet the grave and imminent danger of invasion.
Of course the conditions of the Home Guard vary immensely all over the country. May I take my own case? I am working in London, but in my own home district I expressed the wish when I joined the Home Guard in London that farm labourers in my home district should join also and they did. How is a farm labourer going to devote a great deal of his time to attending parades? He cannot plough and look after cattle and attend parades at the same time. He is quite prepared to, and does, make himself as efficient as possible in the use of a rifle, and after all the most important part of our duties is to be able to use a rifle and perhaps a Bren gun, a Browning gun, a Hotchkiss gun—and now I hear there is a new one. We do the best we can. Take another case, that of a bank clerk. In the particular place where I serve in London the post is defended at times by bank clerks. Look at their work. They

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work all day long until five o'clock in the evening, and then they perhaps have to go on Home Guard duty for several hours. They have to go to work again next morning at nine o'clock or half-past nine It is very noble of these people to come forward and offer their services and spend all that extra time preparing to defend their country, but I think it is impossible to ask them, to waste time learning to turn to the right or left by numbers and salute by numbers on a barrack square. I have had to do that myself. I have been a soldier all my life, but although I do not profess to know half as much as the modern soldier, it is in my view really the limit to waste the time of these men turning to right or left by numbers and saluting by numbers. Thank heaven that has been stopped in my unit because we protested and said our legs would not stand it any longer.
I ask your Lordships to be very careful over this matter of compulsory parade. If you do make parades compulsory you may lose the services of a great many men who are now doing most useful service. We know that generals and colonels have come forward and are acting as private soldiers. They are only too proud to be private soldiers. The proudest day in my life was the day I became a private soldier. I found I had missed my opportunities by being an officer, because a private soldier has nothing to do. We are ready to-day to go to Dover and defend the coast if necessary, but do not ask us to give up all our work as many of us have varying affairs to see to which help to keep the country going—do not let us give all this up to go and spend the time on parades or doing work which we believe is unnecessary. We are ready at any moment, if there is danger of invasion, to go anywhere and to give up our work to fight for our country.
At the end of his speech, my noble friend referred to the question of commissioned rank. I do not think that there is any anxiety about this point. We have commanders of battalions and we have zone commanders. I have heard of no complaints; they are extremely helpful. They listen to any proposals which we have to make, and we get on very well with them. They work very much harder than the rank and file. I do not want your Lordships to think for a moment that there is any ambition on the part of
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the rank and file to be made officers. We do not want that at all, and it is going to be very difficult, I think, to find the men for the purpose. I make these few remarks because they concern matters which we are continually discussing, and I think that they are germane to this subject.
LORD MARCHWOOD: My Lords, I did not intend to intervene in this debate, but, in view of what the noble Earl has said, I should like very much to endorse his remarks with regard to compulsory parades. In the House of Commons and in the House of Lords it has been extremely difficult, since the inception of this Home Guard movement, to get parades; the members have other duties to perform. At the same time, there is a great desire on the part of those who an able to do so to drill and to attend parades whenever possible, and I feel that parades and drill stimulate men to take an interest in the corps and to take a pride in what they are doing. I feel that our great work is to repel an invasion and to be an emergency reserve for the troops. I feel that at the present time, although matters are in a state of fluidity as regards invasion, the danger still exists. I sincerely hope that the Home Guard will take it seriously to heart that the danger does still exist and will do everything possible to make themselves efficient, so that if they are called upon to take the place of the Regular Army for any reason whatever—either because the Regular troops have gone abroad or because they are transferred to another part of the country—they will be able to play their part. From conversations which I have had during the time that we have been drilling and guarding the Palace of Westminster, I find that that is the main reason stimulating those who are taking an active part in this work.
As the noble Earl has rightly said, every district in this country has different difficulties with which to contend. There are some of those who are serving in the Home Guard of the Palace of Westminster who are also serving in the Home Guard in their constituencies. There are some who are concerned in the making of munitions and who have to go about the country to see that the man-power available in their factories is being used

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to the fullest extent. If the powers that be, when appointing officers to the various commands, will give them a certain amount of latitude in regard to seeing what work is really essential and can be carried out with efficiency in each district, that will be the right thing to do. I have mentioned these two points because they were suggested to me by what the noble Earl said.
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (LORD CROFT): My Lords, the War Office are always very grateful when the noble Viscount, Lord Buckmaster, or any other member of your Lordships' House, displays an interest in this remarkable Force. I should like in particular to thank the noble Viscount, Lord Buckmaster, not only for being extremely interested in this question from the very start, but for serving himself with great enthusiasm and for being a master of his subject. The details of the reorganisation of the Home Guard will be settled very soon, now that, as mentioned in another place yesterday, the Director-General has been appointed. It is only possible at the present moment to discuss the broad outlines of the matter, but I hope that I can give satisfaction to my noble friend with regard to the questions he has put to me.
The position as to the volunteer being able to resign by giving a fortnight's notice is admittedly not ideal, but it is most strongly felt that any other solution would interfere with the whole character of the Force, in that it would necessitate disturbing the normal economic life of the country. Men's conditions of work change very rapidly in these days; by State pressure or the pressure of events they are frequently moved from one place to another, and it is essential that this flexibility in conditions of service should be observed. I should like to remind my noble friend that it is an extremely small number of members of the Force (which can now be described as a vast one) who have taken advantage of that clause. I think that the number is something like 4,000 for the whole country, and of that number probably 90 per cent, have had every reason to resign, because they have been transferred so that their services can be more usefully given for war production in some
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other area, or have had some other satisfactory reason for their action.
With regard to the second point that he mentioned, the Army is most definitely responsible for the training of the Home Guard. That was laid down, as my noble friend mentioned, in Instruction No. 14 on Training, and has never been departed from. It has been re-emphasized, I think, by the recent decisions which have been taken. The actual extent to which the military commanders are able to provide instructions varies, of course, in different localities. In some cases the training of divisions—which I am glad to say has now for the first time become really possible under large-scale conditions—is of such intensity that it has been impossible in those localities to give all the supervision and help which could be desired. In some cases the supervision of the Home Guard is difficult owing to the scattered nature of the Regular formations in the areas concerned. More and more, however, we are glad to be able to record that the Regular commanders, in the areas in particular, are being brought into closer touch with the Home Guard; and it is now generally understood, I think, that the military commander of the Army in the area where the Home Guard unit is situated is responsible, and it is for him to ensure that the standard of training is sufficient to prepare the unit to play its part.
Where there is a shortage of numbers—and I know that this point has exercised my noble friend—in certain rural and vulnerable areas of this country, it has been necessary to look to the Regular Army to fill the gap. In the case of some such areas the Regular Army has had to be brought in, and there it will remain so long as the present danger is with us. But recruiting is still being allowed in certain areas where there is clearly a shortage, and it is under consideration whether further steps can be taken in collaboration with the civil authorities in order to make the best use of available man-power in such districts. There is no reason to suppose, however, that the shortage, taking the country as a whole, is serious in any large district. It happens to be so in certain areas, but it is not the general rule.
I was rather struck by my noble friend's suggestion that the issue of full clothing and equipment, where it may still

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be short, should go first to the men who have proved themselves efficient and keen. I think that that is highly desirable and, where there is such a shortage of uniforms, clothing, greatcoats and so on, I think the local officer responsible for the distribution of equipment should take care to see that the efficient men are as far as possible provided for first, in order, as the noble Viscount pointed out, that the man who is on duty has a greatcoat and other essential garments and equipment to meet the conditions of winter.
The question of collecting suitable leaders for the Home Guard, now that Commissions are to be granted, will, I can assure my noble friend, receive the most careful attention of the authorities, and when Commissions are granted the commanders of every district, from the bottom upwards, will come up for review. And that is going to be in the immediate future. I want to assure my noble friend, in answer to the point he raised just now, that the selection is not going to be confused to the Home Guard, that there will be no privileged position. The military commanders by now have a pretty good idea as to the efficiency of the Home Guard commanders, and they will have an undoubted say in this matter. There are, of course, some indifferent leaders—men of good will who are really not up to the job on account of age or for some other reason, though they have done their best; but I think undoubtedly that those who are definitely not up to the job will depart.
Now with regard to the other question which he touched upon—namely, the difficulty of any form of compulsion in regard to training, etc., I want to point out that in the winter conditions there are no definite hours laid down for Home Guard duties. In each locality circumstances vary and the best use is being made of such personnel as may be available, subject to the overriding principle that the Home Guard's civilian occupation must come first. There is an idea, I think, that the hours of work for the Home Guard have been limited from 9 p.m. to 5 a.m., but that is not so. It depends upon local conditions. In some districts it may happen that those hours are the ones at which the Home Guard are most readily available. When it is so they are performing a most vital rôle by acting as observers at times when there are no
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others available, except the police and the Regular Army.
But I would also point out in regard to the difficulties of manning posts in some local districts, about which my noble friend expressed his fears once before, that those difficulties are mitigated, as I think he will agree, owing to the fact that the whole of the agricultural population, now that a change has been made in regard to the hours of summer time, are at work long before dawn. Even in the hours of darkness the countryside is humming with people a large number of whom are trained in Home Guard duties, and the very fact that they are going to their work at these hours will be an additional precaution against any definite effort at landing from the air at that time, when they would be able very speedily to give warning. It is essential in our opinion that there should be some limitation of hours of duty, for the reason given by the noble Earl. You cannot expect a man to be at the same time working at vital agricultural duties and also to be on parade. But we have every reason to hope that he will speedily be at his post when the alarm is given and the church bells ring.
One other question my noble friend raised, and that was with regard to the age limit. The decision was come to only yesterday that from battalion commander downwards the age limit shall be fixed at sixty-five. In general, however, I think it may be said that the duties of those who hold the higher administrative posts are not such as would necessitate the age limit being strictly applied. Exceptions may be made and I think anybody who is conversant with the machinery of the Home Guard will agree that a Zone Commander or an Area Commander, who may be a very distinguished soldier, is no less capable of carrying out his duties than let us say some of the senior Generals of the past—men like Lord Roberts or Marshal Joffre or Hindenburg, or other highly efficient soldiers of the past who have been able to fulfil far greater duties. Therefore we do not intend to be absolutely rigid for the higher commands, but we do realise that the modern conditions of war—and you are going to be up against a savage enemy—demand that you must have men who are active and able to meet the enemy in modern conditions.

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It may interest the noble Viscount to know that I heard only to-day from a relative of mine who has a very large Command in the Home Guard and who has written me on many occasions—not complaining, but demanding the very best or the Home Guard. I have been a little bit anxious that this correspondence, as the newspapers say, "should cease," but I have a letter from him to-day in which he says that it is extraordinary now how the stuff is coming forward, and its quality also. In this very large Command the men are really happy in the knowledge that they have a very considerable lire power should the enemy invade his particular county.
In thanking the noble Viscount for raising his question, I would only once more emphasize the supreme importance which the Army Council attach to the Home Guard. Obviously the invasion peril is with us to the end of the war. I cannot conceive myself, indeed, how Hitler can hope to win this war without a successful invasion of this country. This formation of the Home Guard is, perhaps, the most remarkable achievement seen in this or in any other country. I do not believe it could have happened anywhere else. It is not a rigid disciplined force, nor is that intended. It is just one of those extraordinary things which happen in Great Britain where with good will you arrive at the highest kind of efficiency that is within your reach. I do not believe there is any recorded instance where a force of some 1,600,000 or 1,700,000 men within a very few months, without any hope of reward other than the recognition of their service to their country, has demonstrated the good will of the people and their resolute intention to defend their native land. I should just like to add, because the time is opportune, that our thanks are also due, not only to the ex-soldiers but to civilians who have taken such a noble part in this miracle organisation in this remarkably short time. We do appreciate all that they have given in service to their native land.
VISCOUNT BUCKMASTER: My Lords, before thanking my noble friend, I should like, with your Lordships' permission, to say one word to my noble friend Lord Clanwilliam. There appears to be some misunderstanding. My purpose was not
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to get men to turn to the right or left, but to get them to understand the use of modern weapons. While I should appreciate the privilege of serving with my noble friend, I should enjoy it still more if I felt he attended classes for instruction in the latest automatic rifles and latest types of machine guns.
THE EARL OF CLANWILLIAM: I have been learning that for weeks.
VISCOUNT BUCKMASTER: I understood my noble friend did not want to attend such parades. I thank my noble friend Lord Croft for the generous terms in which he expressed himself, and for the full and satisfactory answer he has been good enough to give. In particular, I should like to say how much I welcome the fact that he is alive to this question of numbers which, in certain areas on the coast, is a very vital matter. I beg leave to withdraw the Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

AIR-RAID SHELTERS AND THE PUBLIC HEALTH.
LORD ADDISON LORD ADDISON had given Notice that he would ask His Majesty's Government whether they are prepared to publish the Report of Lord Horder's Committee on air-raid shelters, and to state what steps it is proposed to take to safeguard public health for people using them; and move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, to-day is another example of the great value of Parliamentary institutions. It has afforded an opportunity to hear an excellent discussion on a great topic and a very satisfactory reply. I have no hesitation in saying that the subject I propose to bring forward, whilst completely different, is no less important. We may well lose more lives by disease through overcrowding and unsuitable conditions in shelters than from bombing. That is quite a possibility. I speak with hesitation in the presence of my noble and distinguished friend on the Cross Benches (Lord Horder), but that must be fairly obvious to everyone who knows the risks that must arise through people crowding together in ill-ventilated and often insanitary places below the ground, sometimes for hours and hours together. It "asks for" the spread, in the winter months, of all manner of diseases.
Every one of us welcomes the appointment of the noble Lord, Lord Horder, and others to report to the Government as to what should be done about it. I understand—and we had statements issued to that effect—that some time toward the end of September, the noble Lord made certain recommendations, and I have no doubt that, as experience has developed since then, these have been added to. I feel sure they have; but I am very surprised that no publicity was given to the recommendations of this Committee before this morning, practically, except for various reports and more or less accurate guesses. In view of the necessity of getting ahead with the work of making shelters of the right type, properly ventilated and with adequate services attached to them, the first possible opportunity should have been taken to publish the recommendations of this Committee. Local authorities with whom it seems to rest for the most part are sometimes a bit slow, and it was exceedingly important that as much as possible should be done before the winter months were upon us. I note—and I am sorry to have to say it, but perhaps the noble Duke (the Duke of Devonshire) will be able to give us a good explanation—that we have not yet had the Report published; we have had only the recommendations. For my part, I want to see the Report, and I believe a large number of other people also want to see it.
The position is not at all satisfactory. The fact is that if there is slowness in making the shelters what they ought to be, or in providing them, nobody seems to have the power to act. All the Ministry of Health appear to be able to do is to issue circulars. We are told sometimes on the wireless that they have issued a circular on this or on that in various terms, but that is not enough. The perils are too great and they are too near us in these winter months, for us to be satisfied that our central governing Department has, in fact, no greater power than exhortation, because that is what it comes down to. The bombers, when they visit us, have no regard to borough boundaries, and when people are bombed from their homes, and are in the distressful condition with which every one of us is acquainted, they do not seek shelter necessarily within the limits of their own borough. They go to what they believe
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to be the best shelter they can find. We know that in many shelters the conditions are nothing like so good as they ought to be.
There is a case actually mentioned in the Daily Telegraph to-day in commenting on the recommendations of the Committee on the point of the great importance of dispersal. It is of vital importance, as far as possible, that people should be dispersed and as far as possible not in great numbers, otherwise you ask for the spread of infection: so the noble Lord in his recommendations insists on the first importance of dispersal of people in shelters. Everyone must agree with him, but that means we should have some authority which is able to take a view of what shelter accommodation is or may be made available without regard for borough boundaries—that is to say, you should pool your shelter provision. The Daily Telegraph this morning, in referring to a particular case, says:
"Again, local authorities are 'advised' to organise a pooling of shelter space resources. There ought to be no room left for the evading of this obligation. A case was lately made public in which an unoccupied house had been placed at the disposal of a borough authority for shelter purposes; the offer was declined on the ground that that particular auhority was already provided with enough shelter-space! If the overcrowding evil is to be attacked successfully, that kind of spirit will have to be sharply exorcised."
I do not know how the spirit should be exorcised, but what I want is to have someone to do something about it.
Clearly the Government Department ought to have the power to come in and see that shelter provision is made available and is suitable. What applies to the provision of shelters or the proper and fuller use of shelter accommodation being crippled to some extent by dependence on the large number of separate authorities, applies equally to the provision of the shelter itself in terms of adequate ventilation and sanitary provision. I expect we have all heard about this sort of thing. Some time ago I came across a most shocking case of the horrible, insanitary conditions prevailing in a big shelter—indescribably disgusting—which ought not to have been allowed, and it had been like that for three weeks. It is all very well for the Ministry of Health to exhort others to do something, but it should have been in somebody's power to go in and clear up the mess, to get something done

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about it. That is the point I am making. The situation does not seem to have been grasped and dealt with as it ought to have been. What applies to this kind of thing applies to the appointment of shelter marshals, nurses, and sufficient medical staff. I heard the other day, for example, of difficulties being experienced about the appointment of medical staff because questions have not yet been satisfactorily settled as to whose panel a person was going to be on. It is grotesque that we should be held up by considerations of this kind. Unless the noble Duke can give us some very good reason I shall ask the House to insist upon the publication of this Report, to see not only what is recommended but why it is recommended. I think that most of us can guess pretty well, but I cannot imagine why the Ministry of Health has only seen fit to publish the recommendations and not the Report on the eve of this debate.
To be quite frank there has been too much feebleness by the Ministry of Health in this critical matter for weeks past. We cannot afford to wait on people who are dilatory or perhaps inefficient. From the point of view of the health of the people in our great centres of population there is during this coming winter no subject of more urgent importance than this, and I am quite sure it is just as well that we should have an opportunity publicly of discussing it. I have not seen the Report of my noble friend. I have known him for a great many years, and I suspect that the Report not only has in it the professional knowledge for which he is distinguished but is also full of practical common sense from the first word to the last. I am quite sure of that, and I should like to see the Report, and I think we should have the opportunity of seeing it. One feels in the absence of having seen the Report that it is and must necessarily be a most valid contribution to national security at this time, and I urge the Government to give us some definite assurances that they will without delay take action, not by the multiplication of more authorities or by the appointment of some high-sounding person to another job, but by the Ministry taking power to secure that there is effective action, possibly by having one authority for the whole business. That has been said on two occasions before
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in this House, and I do not apologise in the least for repeating it. I am afraid that unless we can obtain unity of direction, unity of power to act, in this grave matter we shall be confronted this winter with terrible conditions arising out of the use of these shelters. I do hope that the Ministry of Health will take their courage in their hands and demand to be given the power to act in all matters necessary with regard to this trouble. I beg to move for Papers.
Moved, That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty for the Report of Lord Horder's Committee on Air Raid Shelters.—(Lord Addison.)
LORD HORDER: My Lords, I think it is scarcely necessary for me to remind your Lordships how this question of health in relation to shelters originally arose. I might say that literally it arose in a night, because, your Lordships will remember, the Ministry of Home Security took upon themselves to provide, and so far as I know did adequately provide—or, I would say, were in the act of adequately providing—shelter of a certain kind when this problem arose so abruptly. The nature of the shelter which was originally designed and was being provided was temporary shelter of a sitting kind for a short period during the day, when suddenly the problem changed, and we became aware that for the rapidly but frankly unprepared-for changed problem urgent provision became necessary for dormitory accommodation, not for an hour or two but for the greater part of the night, or, as we now know, for the whole night. The health problem would have been slight, if indeed one could say there was a health problem, had conditions remained as we anticipated they would, but, with the need for dormitory accommodation for a vast number of people, the health problem emerged from that moment side by side with the security problem, and it has continued to do so.
The problem was fraught with many difficulties. The Government were fully aware of the need that something should be done on the health side as well as on the security side, and, as your Lordships know, an Inter-Departmental Committee of an advisory character was set up, and Sir John Anderson and Mr. Malcolm MacDonald paid me the compliment of asking me to preside over a small

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Committee of inquiry which should, after due inquiry, issue a Report and with that Report certain recommendations. I am not politically minded, and, therefore, I am not going to concern myself with any questions of a controversial nature which may arise in connection with this problem, as, for example, when did we report and in what form did we report. The answer to those questions will no doubt at long last be given, if not in your Lordships' House then in some other place. But the Government did, as I say, appoint this Committee, and were very insistent that we should get to work quickly. They gave us every facility; and, as is well known to your Lordships, met us individually in consultation in the shelters. Your Lordships cannot be unaware that Ministers with their staffs and their friends did visit the shelters, and did themselves see the unbelievable conditions (speaking hygienically) which the large public shelters presented two months ago.
The crux of the problem has always been, as the noble Lord, Lord Addison said, one of overcrowding—a large number of people in a confined space with at first no means of sanitation, with no drinking water, with no proper facilities for sleeping, a large number of people in contact with one another, uninfected people in close proximity with the infected, and some other details which the noble Lord, Lord Addison, has given your Lordships. That state of affairs was handled at the centre promptly. Your Lordships will naturally want to know from me what progress I think has been made in the direction of resolving that acute problem presented in that way. My Committee feel that in view of the magnitude of the problem and the rapidity with which it arose, a great deal has been done. A great deal has been done to implement our recommendations, and I am fully aware that a great deal has been done by Miss Ellen Wilkinson's Committee, the Shelters Policy Committee. Miss Wilkinson's Committee have acted both in the direction of improved security and in the direction of improved health, improved hygiene.
I would remind your Lordships again I that, as I said before, these two conditions, security and hygiene, cannot be separated. Dispersal is the answer to both—dispersal outside the shelters, that
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is evacuation, the dispersal of the shelters qua shelters, and dispersal of the individuals who inhabit especially the large public shelters of their own choice, where this risk to health presents itself at its maximum. But there is still much to do. It would be not only foolish, it would be wrong, it would be criminal, to say that we are even within sight of the solution of the hygienic problem in connection with shelter life. I cannot therefore give your Lordships the assurance that I would like to give that health dangers in regard to shelter problems are over.
A recent minute of my Committee puts the position thus:
"Although we are aware that some local authorities have realised the danger that confronts them and have taken steps to avert it, the impression made on the Committee by its more recent observations is still profoundly disturbing."
The functions of my Committee, as your Lordships know, are advisory. We have no responsibility for action taken on our recommendations. At the same time we cannot be blind to what we observe, and we cannot be indifferent to what we believe to be the causes which operate in such a way—if your Lordships will forgive a homely metaphor—as to delay the giving of our medicine to the patients concerning whose health we have been called in for consultation. We cannot help, for example, being struck by the lack of co-ordination between the different departments of the local authorities, resulting in no one official accepting detailed responsibility for the problems arising out of shelter conditions, and we cannot help observing that instructions are often issued to already over-worked officials who are quite unable to cope with the volume of work presented to them, their own personnel being inadequate for the purpose.
May I say in conclusion that I trust this matter will not be made a question of political controversy? It is difficult for me to see how that can be so. I am sure that no such motive animated the noble Lord my old friend and colleague in putting this Motion before your Lordships. Noble Lords know, as I know, that his interest in the common health over a period of years still animates him. All the same, may I say to my noble friend Lord Addison that he must be aware that I am not an apologist for the Government either in respect of what they do or what they do not do? I sit on the

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Cross Benches in your Lordships' House and I sit on the Cross Benches in regard to this matter of inter-departmental work in connection with shelter housing. The only thing that matters is that we get on with this business, that we say to ourselves in effect: "I will not sleep comfortably in my own bed until I have done my best to get as much safety, whether it be physical safety or health safety, for the people who form the bulk of this great country."
THE LORD BISHOP OF WINCHESTER: My Lords, I join with the noble Lord opposite in regretting that this Report has not been published in full, and my regret is the more deep after hearing the extremely important speech just delivered by the noble Lord, Lord Horder. I think that if anything further was required to bring home to us the gravity of the position, that will have been furnished by his speech. The recommendations that are set forth in his Committee's Report show us that the situation is indeed one of the utmost seriousness for the health of the people of the country. The notes which follow the recommendations show that the Government have been taking considerable steps and that a good deal has been done, but the noble Lord's speech has made it quite clear that we are very far from a solution of the problem. His own words were that we are not "even within sight of the solution" of the problem. The problem is two-fold. There is first the terrible overcrowding, and secondly the conditions which, at any rate until quite recently, in many of these shelters have been quite horribly and indescribably insanitary. I have heard from time to time from those who have been to these shelters that the conditions in some of the shelters were, at any rate quite recently, indescribable.
There is another point which I should like to make in connection with this subject. I am afraid that the noble Duke who is replying will not be able to answer me on this, as I have not given him notice of the question; but I am very anxious about the condition of the children who use these shelters. I am told—indeed, I have seen it myself—that, at any rate until quite recently, a line of children can be seen at eleven o'clock in the morning, waiting to book places in the shelters for the rest of the family.
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The children are standing in a row for hours. They take their food with them and wait until they can book places, and they wait in the shelter until the rest of the family come there later in the evening. I understand that something has already been done to deal with that evil. It is proposed to issue tickets, but how far have these tickets already been issued? I know that there are schemes, but how far have they been put into effect? It is impossible, I think, to exaggerate the gravity of this matter. Here we have these children waiting for hours in all weathers to book places for their families in the shelters.
The noble Lord has told us that the difficulty is partly due to lack of co-ordination between the various authorities. Some authorities, I understand, have acted with the greatest promptness, but others have been feeble beyond all words and quite unable to grapple with the position. I feel that this is a case where further dictatorial powers are required. The Ministry of Health should have power to deal with the position, or, if necessary, some dictator should be appointed who can overrule the various authorities and compel immediate action. I do not want to appear to underestimate the quite extraordinary difficulty of the problem—a problem in many ways unexpected and of unique difficulty. It is so serious, however, that I think that any opposition on the part of local authorities ought to be overridden, and the Government should be armed with the fullest powers to deal with this matter, which affects the health of the whole community. They should deal with it drastically and promptly.
LORD JESSEL: My Lords, I should like to say a few words on this subject, because I was extremely interested in the speech of the noble Lord opposite. We should all be grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Addison, for bringing forward this Motion, because, as he rightly says, it does show that Parliament has some uses in these days. As my noble friend Lord Horder has said, the whole policy in regard to shelters has changed. At the beginning they were put up largely for protection against splinters during the day, but to-day they are being used by very large numbers of people for protection during the night as well. I think

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that the recommendations of Lord Horder's Committee are most valuable. Most of the local authorities have acted upon them, but I should like to re-echo what Lord Horder has said about the difficulties of local authorities—the enormous amount of work which they have to do and the unending responsibility thrown upon the chief officials. Another point which is very material is that it is impossible to get sufficient labour. Recently we have had the help of the Army. I think that the Army ought to have been brought in much earlier for certain purposes, such as demolition, but at last we are obtaining their help. Sanitary conditions, I agree, have been horrible, but there again, when the authorities went to the labour exchanges they could not get the people to do the work. We are now able to obtain them to some extent. The conditions were disgusting, but, as Lord Horder and his Committee know, those things are being remedied, and remedied very speedily.
The question of shelter tickets is being dealt with, but I should like to mention one curious thing which is happening. I went to one of the big shelters last night and asked the shelter marshal how things were going and whether there was very much pressure. He said, "No, people seem to have found their places, and they like to come here because they all know each other." That is happening in a great many places. They have now settled down, and there is not the rush that there was when the Blitzkrieg over London began. Speaking of London, the various boroughs are making every provision to take in an additional number of people, and are making deep shelters in the basements of the better-built houses. As you go along the streets you will notice brick walls put up to protect the basements from blast. This work takes a good deal of time, because of the difficulty of obtaining material, but no doubt in this way some of the overcrowding that still exists will be relieved.
There is one other point to which I should like to draw attention. Lord Addison referred to a dictator. Not only in London, but all over the country we have people going round on behalf of the regional administrations, and it is their duty to bring any defects to the notice of the regional authorities, who are over the local authorities. The local authorities cannot do very much without the permis-
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sion of the regional authority. If any borough or area is not doing its work, it can be dealt with in the same way as was one borough in London, where the whole administration was put under an official who was made responsible to the Ministry of Home Security. I quite admit that some boroughs and some areas are not up to the mark, but there is surely ample machinery for communication with the regional authorities and with the Ministry of Home Security, so that matters may be put upon a proper basis.
I quite admit that there is a great deal to be done. There is an enormous amount of work still to be done on this very difficult question, which so seriously affects the health of the people. In view of the shortness of time and of the difficulties in regard to labour and materials, and in view of the amount of work thrown on the officials, I consider that a great deal has already been done. That is not to say that perfection has been achieved, because that is not by any means the case. Bunks have still to come, but it is difficult to get them at a moment's notice, because so much else is required. I think, however, that progress has been made and I can assure your Lordships that, so far as I know, every effort has been made by the local authorities, especially in London, to cooperate to solve these most important problems.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA AND BURMA (THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE): My Lords, the noble Lord opposite addressed himself very largely to the question of why the Report of Lord Horder's Committee had not been published. The short answer to that question is that there is no one Report to publish. Lord Horder's Committee, like Miss Wilkinson's Committee, was appointed to advise the Government when a pressing emergency arose. They began giving advice almost at once, and the Government are in possession of a number of Reports, and I am able to say also that the noble Lord, Lord Horder, has advised the Ministers responsible verbally. They are here not merely investigating a subject and making a comprehensive Report for the information of the nation: this is a question of almost day-to-day advice given to the Departments concerned as to the steps that become neces-

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sary, and I have not the slightest doubt that both Lord Horder's Committee and Miss Wilkinson's Committee will have further advice and further recommendations to make to the Government.
That is the reason, and the only reason, why these Reports have not been published. They would not have presented—probably will not even now present—a complete picture, but the Government have been able to publish in a clear and succinct form the various recommendations which have been made and to give a brief statement of what action has been taken on these recommendations. I think it is the case that the public, through this White Paper containing the recommendations, are in a far better position to judge of the meaning of Lord Horder's Report than they would be if they had had in bits and pieces, as they came out and were put before the Government, the various very valuable pieces of advice which Lord Horder has given. In those circumstances you would have had not a complete whole which you have got now but something which, though quite clearly of great value to the Government Departments concerned, would not have presented a comprehensive picture to the general public.
I am glad your Lordships have realised how desperately serious the problems are. They began by being most pressing in London. It was largely in London that this severe problem arose of very large numbers of persons regularly making use of large communal shelters as dormitories. For that reason the Metropolitan area received first attention, and a series of measures has already been taken. But instructions have now been issued for the application of these measures where they are necessary in the areas round London and the provinces. The arrangements made in London aim first at evacuating from London those persons who can best be moved, and dispersing the remaining population among the shelters of various kinds and so avoiding overcrowding. That really is in answer to the questions raised by the right reverend Prelate. It is perfectly appalling, I fully agree, that children should be employed in the way he described.
The Government policy with regard to children is that as far as possible they should be evacuated to places of greater safety. The family feeling in London is
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very strong, and the Government have been up against serious difficulties in securing evacuation. That applies not only to children—although the evacuation of children, I am glad to say, is steadily proceeding—but also to crippled and aged persons. Quite clearly they can far better be provided for in hospitals in the country than in London, and arrangements have been made both for children to be evacuated to the country and for old people to be transferred to hospitals under the Emergency Hospital Scheme where practicable. But there are many people who have to remain in London who object to parting from their children, and many aged people who object most strongly to leaving the neighbourhood they know. The Government have not taken, and do not at present intend to take, compulsory powers. That would be a great inconvenience in very many ways, but arbitrarily to sever family ties is a very serious step, and one which my right honourable friend does not contemplate taking at present.
The Government scheme further provides—and this is something new—for regular and frequent inspection of the shelters by the medical officer of health of the borough or his assistant medical staff. The noble Lord opposite was critical of the Government because, he said, they only issued circulars, and did nothing. Well, I think in many ways that is a misuse of words. The Minister of Health cannot really go himself spraying the air and so forth, but he can urge and instruct the local authorities to do so. And he has not only instructed and urged local authorities to get ahead with this work, but he has authorised them to engage additional staff where they require it for the purpose, and he has undertaken that the cost of this extra staff shall be carried by the Government, and not by the local authorities. I believe that measure will have, and is already having, an important effect and is bearing fruit.
The general scheme is being supervised through a Medical Branch of the Ministry of Health associated with the Public Health Administrative Division. The Medical Branch includes a team of experts on public health and on epidemics, and a special staff has been allocated to the Public Health Administrative Division. In particular the scheme provides, again at the Government expense and not at the expense of the local authority, for

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medical and nursing services to be available for people using the larger shelters, and for the installation of "medical aid posts" in those shelters. Ordinarily the borough council will see that a doctor is on call when wanted. In the larger shelters there will be a visiting doctor who will call nightly and be available when required. For the largest shelters of all there may be a resident doctor. In each large shelter there will be a nurse. In securing nursing staff medical officers will no doubt make the fullest possible use of the Civil Nursing Reserve and other bodies concerned with nursing personnel. The medical aid post will be a reserved apartment with (where space permits) beds and bunks, screens, tables and chairs. In those medical aid posts people can be treated for simple ailments and injuries. Suitable instruments and medicines which are being issued from central stores by the Ministry of Health will be kept at these posts.
Further problems are under close examination, particularly with regard to prophylactic measures, such as the possible use of a simple form of face mask to prevent droplet infection, the use of antiseptic sprays, and the question of the best practical measures to be taken against infestation by body vermin. Lord Horder's Committee have offered to hold themselves at the disposal of the Minister of Health and the Minister of Home Security. They are meeting at frequent intervals and are being constantly consulted by the Departments. That again is the real answer to the question of why there, has been no publication of this Report. This is not a closed subject; it is a subject which I have no doubt will present problems which will vary in their nature from time to time as the months go on. Lord Horder's Committee have not completed their work, and they are still doing work of very great value.
The problem is one of appalling difficulty. Your Lordships are very well aware that, although great progress has been made in housing conditions in the last generation or so, we are still very far indeed from being able to say that in ordinary peace-time—and under peace conditions—the housing conditions of very large numbers of our people are anything like satisfactory. We are now confronted with the entirely different
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problem of finding satisfactory housing conditions for great masses of the population underground where only a very few months ago no one ever contemplated that people would spend more than a limited time at intervals. It is a gigantic problem, and I think the House is greatly indebted to the noble Lord for raising it. I can assure him that the Government are applying themselves very seriously to this question. They are, as the noble Lord, Lord Horder, was good enough to say, paying attention to his recommendations and, as far as possible, carrying them out. They will continue to take whatever steps may be possible to deal with this very pressing and very urgent problem.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, I feel bound to intervene for a few moments to say that I do not think your Lordships should allow this question of the publication of the Report to remain where the noble Duke has left it. There is a demand for the publication of the fullest information, and nothing could be simpler than to ask Lord Horder's Committee to put into shape the Report, with any additional recommendations they have made during the last two months. If this war, as seems likely, proves to be a long war, and if there are other places besides London and Coventry which, during the course of the war, are liable to attack, we ought to make the fullest provision as a nation for the protection of the populations likely to be affected. To that end we ought to have the fullest information with respect to the experience already obtained.
Let me say further that I do not agree with those who think that no one could have foreseen the circumstances that have now arisen, and that no one is to blame for lack of foresight. As soon as the collapse of France took place, and it became obvious that Germany was in possession of air bases within a few minutes' flight from our towns, the situation was very greatly altered. It was fully expected that there would be violent air attacks upon our cities. If that were not expected, why the great scheme for the evacuation of children, why the provision made for the possible removal of Government Departments and the headquarters staffs of our great banks and industries to other places? If there were to be attacks of this kind, then obviously it was

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necessary to provide shelters, and shelters were, in fact, provided in large numbers to meet possible eventualities. Should it not have been foreseen that there would be night bombing, and that the population would crowd into these shelters? But apparently no one had given any forethought to these questions of overcrowding, ventilation, sanitation, medical attendance, and sleeping accommodation.
It is necessary that cognisance should be taken of these facts, and although it may be said it does not matter now because the event has happened, and proper precautions were not taken in advance, still, as I say, there are other towns that may be subjected to similar experiences, and it is right that, according to the best scientific and technical advice, action should now be taken and taken in the right direction. I do not think this House should allow this discussion to end—and here I feel sure I shall have the agreement of the whole House—without paying a tribute to Lord Horder and his colleagues for the great activity and promptitude with which they made their recommendations, which have enabled these better steps to be taken which the Government now have in hand.
LORD ADDISON: My Lords, I have only to say a word in conclusion. Whilst I thank the noble Duke for his reply, like my noble friend beside me it did not leave me satisfied. The case I submitted was substantiated by the noble Duke's statement itself. I want to assure my noble friend on the Cross Benches (Lord Horder), though assurance should hardly be necessary, that I had no thought of anything of a political character in putting this Motion down. It had nothing to do with politics at all. It is a matter of the gravest national importance, and I am sure all we want to do is to get the right thing done and done as quickly as possible. When one comes to analyse, as far as one has had the opportunity to analyse, the statement of the noble Duke, he said various steps had been taken, and that instructions have now been issued regarding certain matters affecting the shelters. I am glad of it. The point I make is, who is to secure that effect is given to these instructions? The very serious Minute which the noble
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Lord read to the House—the interim Minute of his Committee—is the fullest justification of the case I put before the House. I was staggered by that Minute, like the right reverend Prelate. What we want is to see that someone gets these things done. I know that in Westminster, where my noble friend Lord Jessel has a share in the work, they are doing the work actively, but it is not being done actively everywhere.
LORD JESSEL: Surely there is plenty of means of inspection by the officers of the Regional Security? They can go round and see, and the Home Office also send people round to look at these things.
LORD ADDISON: I accept all that the noble Lord says as accurate. There are plenty of people authorised to inspect, and the result of their inspection is, I am afraid, sometimes to reveal a very unhappy state of affairs. What I am concerned with is that, while we have people who can inspect, we have not got a system whereby the results of their inspection can be given effect to. That is all I am talking about. We could not have anything more serious than the Minute of the noble Lord's Committee that he has reported to the House. I feel exactly the same as my noble friend below the Gangway (Viscount Samuel). I am acquainted, and have been for many years, like most of your Lordships, with the procedure of Government Committees. There is no earthly reason why we should not have an interim Report from this Committee, or why the Committee should not be asked to put their Report in a form in which it can be studied not only by people in this House but throughout the country. It is not good enough, in view of this exceedingly grave problem, that we should only have this kind of Paper to which the noble Duke has referred. I feel we ought to know what this Committee has said in a proper form and, if need be, have a series of interim Reports. There is no matter of more urgent importance from the point of view of the health of the people, and I hope that the House will agree to my Motion.
On Question, Whether the Motion shall be agreed to?
The House divided: Contents, 10; Not-Contents, 13.

CONTENTS.

Strafford, E.

Winchester, L. Bp.

Hare, L. (E. Listowel.) [Teller.]

Samuel, V.

Addison, L.

Monkswell, L.

Arnold, L.

Strabolgi, L. [Teller.]

Southwark, L. Bp.

Faringdon, L.

NOT-CONTENTS.

Simon, V. (L, Chancellor.)

FitzAlan of Derwent, V.

Lawrence, L.

Stonehaven, V.

Newton, L.

Devonshire, D. [Teller.]

Rankeillour, L.

Clanwilliam, L. (E. ClanWilliam.)

Templemore, L. [Teller.]

Lucan, E.

Teviot, L.

Jessel, L.

Tryon, L.

Resolved in the negative and Motion disagreed to accordingly.

CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPRO- PRIATION) (NO. 2) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT SIMON): My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2ª.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Bill read 2ª. Committee negatived.
Then, Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended, Bill read 3ª, and passed.

ENEMY OVERTURES.
LORD NEWTON LORD NEWTON had given Notice that he would ask His Majesty's Government whether the Ministry of Information have taken any steps to draw special attention to the statement by the Foreign Secretary on November 5 that "We, on our side, have repeatedly rejected all suggestions from the enemy for an agreement with us at the expense of France." The noble Lord said: "My Lords, this question is one of a belated nature, but that is not my fault. The speech referred to was delivered on the 5th of this month, and we are now at the 20th. As soon as I got an opportunity, I put it upon the Paper, but I was requested by my noble friend who represents the Ministry of Information to put it off because, he said, he would give me a much more satisfactory reply to-day. I await with
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interest his reply, but I have very little expectation that it will be satisfactory from my point of view. When two Governments are at war and when one Government makes peace approaches to the other, it is always treated as a matter of profound secrecy. Everything is wrapped in mystery. But upon this occasion there has been no mystery at all. My noble friend Lord Halifax made a definite statement that he had been constantly approached by the enemy to come to terms with them at the expense of the French, and that he had consistently refused to do so.
That struck me at the time as one of the most important statements that had been made for a long time. I did not call attention to it then because I was not perfectly certain of the words used by the noble Viscount, but the more I think of it, the more important it seems to be, and the extraordinary thing is that nobody seems to have paid any attention to it. I looked at the newspapers next day. There was, I think, a reference in only one of the big London newspapers to what I consider this most important statement. I have never seen any comment on it in the other place or anywhere; in fact I have been unable to find anyone who took any interest in the statement at all, with the exception of my noble friend Lord Selborne, who is not present here this afternoon. When a statement of this kind is made relating to peace overtures, there is as a rule great mystery and concealment, and the usual practice of Governments is to refuse to admit that anything has taken place at all. But in this case there has been no concealment whatever. The Foreign Secretary has stated openly to the whole world what has occurred, and that is an incident which seems to me of enormous importance.
It appears to have aroused no interest whatever here, yet one would have thought that nobody, however obtuse, would have failed to recognise the importance of the statement. Here, not for months but now for over a year, we have been exposed to the vilification of those champions of truth and virtue, Hitler and Mussolini, and a third might be added to them, M. Laval. They have consistently accused us of fomenting the war and betraying our Allies. Here is a statement of Lord Halifax which gives the lie completely to anything of the kind. Not only does it do that, but it places us in a most creditable position that the nation could desire, because it has shown that, in spite of the worst kind of provocation, we adhere to our promises and stand by them. This is a fact which I should have thought ought to have been made known all over the world, which ought to have gone forth at any rate all over the Empire and to America and every European country and especially France; yet I do not gather that anything whatever has been done.
The opportunity has been completely neglected. Whose fault is it? I have no hesitation myself in attributing the fault to the Ministry of Information. What do that Ministry stand for, and what is expected of them? In time of war the functions of the Ministry of Information are, first of all, to give the country correct and unprejudiced information about the operations that take place; secondly, to expose the malignant lies which have been frequently told about this country by our enemies; and thirdly, to make the best of every occasion on which by good luck or by our own skill we have achieved a success. That seems to be prefectly obvious and ought to be understood by everybody, but we have done exactly the reverse. One would have thought from the persistent silence which has been kept with regard to our action that we had done something of which we should be ashamed. I repeat that this was a heaven-sent occasion which we ought to have made the most of, and really we have made no use whatever of it.
If I am asked who is responsible for this complete lapse I say the Ministry of Information. I am not one of those people who have repeatedly accused the
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Ministry of Information of incapacity, but I must say that this last incident seems to me to show quite plainly that there is something wrong about that Ministry. At the present moment the Ministry's composition is very much like an organisation which existed in the last war. It so happens that I was for a short time before I was transferred to other duties, in a position in the Foreign Office department. We in the Foreign Office, as far as I remember, took no account of other people. The department went its own way and the result was overlapping and general want of efficiency. It was not until the last year of the war that a Ministry was formed, and then I suppose things were better managed. It seems to me that there is not sufficient coherence between the different branches. I presume that the responsibility with regard to this particular business is the responsibility of the Foreign Office section of the Ministry of Information. If that is so, and if owing to the Foreign Office action I have mentioned all this has been suppressed, then, although I do not like criticising a department of which I was once a member, I can only say that the people who man that department have a very strange conception of their duties and perhaps it would be well if a change were made.
Anyhow, the fact remains that an immense opportunity has been lost. We had the opportunity of showing the whole world what our attitude is and showing the world that we keep to our engagements. It could not have failed to have had the highest moral effect in all civilised countries. I repeat that this is a magnificent occasion which has been deliberately wasted. I do not know whether there is time to do anything now—I shall probably be told it is too late—but I urged that something should be done and gave my reasons for it in time. I urge this course because I feel perfectly certain that if the position is cleared up the effect will be very deleterious as far as our enemies are concerned. It will probably result in great embarrassment to them, and not only to them but to the Vichy Government as well.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF PENSIONS (LORD TRYON): My Lords, I should like to begin by thanking the noble Lord for providing the opportunity

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for an important statement on this subject. I would only differ from him in saying that instead of having said he would get a better answer if he waited (because the subsequent answer had not then been drafted), what was said was that in view of the very great importance of the point he made I was very grateful to him for deferring the question so as to enable us in concert with the Foreign Office to go into the question and give an adequate reply. Let me say that the noble Lord acknowledges that so far as the Government are concerned they did make a perfectly satisfactory statement on this question, and it is not the fault of the Government if some parts of the speech were not fully reported in the Press. I am not criticising anybody. I think this reply will cover the very important point which he raises and I hope that publicity will be given to it so that my noble friend will have achieved his object in raising the question in your Lordships' House.
Suggestions have repeatedly been made that if Great Britain were prepared to leave Germany a free hand in Europe, Germany would have no further quarrel with Great Britain or the British Empire. The implication, so far as France is concerned, is very plain, and such a temporary bargain at the expense of France could obviously never be accepted by His Majesty's Government. They have repeatedly proclaimed that their aim is the deliverance and restoration of France to her former greatness and independence. Before the French collapse, one of the basic themes of British propaganda was to maintain a united front with France and thus defeat the German efforts to drive a wedge between the two countries. Since the armistice between France and Germany constant emphasis has been laid by the Ministry of Information on the theme that the integrity of metropolitan France and the French Empire can only be assured by the victory of Great Britain in the war with Germany. The Foreign Secretary's statement does not contain anything that was not well known before, but it provides useful illustration of the main theme which the Ministry of Information wished to convey. It has already received wide circulation, and there would not appear to be need for special measures to secure further pub-
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licity for it beyond the statement I have just made.
LORD RANKEILLOUR: My Lords, I do not know whether my noble friend below me will feel satisfied with this answer, but I confess that I personally do not. Why cannot further information be given as to when these overtures were made and how they were immediately answered? In fact, why cannot our case be documented in some way? I feel sympathy with my noble friend Lord Tryon in having to answer for a Department over which he has no control at all, but surely something more can be done. Surely some White Paper can be published as to these overtures and the like. Then again, if such a statement can be amplified and put on the wireless, not only for France but for all the world, I do not think it is too late. I do suggest that he should do his best to see that the two Departments concerned take active and immediate steps to carry out the purpose that my noble friend has in mind.
LORD TRYON: My Lords, I shall, of course, convey the suggestion of my noble friend, in view of its importance, to the Ministry of Information.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, there is no Motion before the House, and we have come to the end of our business. I understand that it meets the convenience of another place if the Royal Commission to give assent to certain Bills is held later to-day, and it might therefore be convenient to your Lordships to adjourn during pleasure.
House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed.

ROYAL COMMISSION.
The following Bills received the Royal Assent:

Appropriation (No. 2),

Securities (Validation),

Workmen's Compensation and Benefit (Byssinosis),

Ayr Burgh Order Confirmation.

PROROGATION: HIS MAJESTY'S SPEECH.
And afterwards His Majesty's most gracious Speech was delivered to both Houses of Parliament by the Lord Chancellor (in pursuance of His Majesty's Command) as followeth:—
"My Lords and Members of the House of Commons,
"For over a year My Forces by sea, land and air have been defending the cause of freedom. My people everywhere, enduring with fortitude in their homes and work places, and at sea, the brutal attacks of the enemy, have nobly sustained the common effort.
"By calculated treachery and violence Germany has brought under her yoke many free nations devoted to the arts of peace. I have been happy to receive here the Governments of countries thus overrun. I rejoice that their armed forces, together with brave men of other nations, are now fighting side by side with My own.
"In the early summer France, overtaken by military disaster, felt compelled to sue for terms of armistice. Taking advantage of French misfortunes Italy seized the opportunity to range herself with the aggressor and has now launched a wanton attack on Greece. I welcome in the struggle against tyranny a new comrade to whom My Empire will bring all possible aid. By her courageous resistance Greece is proving herself worthy of her glorious past.
"My Forces in the Mediterranean are prepared to give a good account of themselves in all emergencies, and My country enjoys, in that region, the benefit of valued Treaties of alliance with Egypt and Turkey.
"It was with gratification that I learnt of the decision of the Government of the United States to transfer fifty destroyers to My Navy, and I trust that the grant to that Government of defence facilities in certain territories on the Atlantic seaboard may equally serve to defend the heritage of free men.
"Members of the House of Commons,
"I thank you for the provision you have made towards the increasingly heavy costs of war. The readiness of My people to accept these burdens confirms Me in My belief that they will think no financial sacrifice too great to ensure the triumph of our cause.
"My Lords and Members of the House of Commons.
"I am glad that despite the heavy preoccupations of the war My Government have found it possible to promote various measures for improving social conditions in this country.
"The frustration of German plans for the invasion of Britain, the attacks upon the sources of German military power, the firm defence of Egypt and the Sudan and the successful attack upon the Italian Navy give proof of our strength, and justify our confidence in final victory.
"The present war is not only a struggle between nations. It springs from the clash of fundamental ideals. We shall not falter or lay aside our arms until the high purposes, to which we have pledged our faith, are achieved.
"I pray that the blessing of Almighty God may rest upon your labours."
After which the LORD CHANCELLOR said:
MY LORDS, AND MEMBERS OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS.—By virtue of His Majesty's Commission, under the Great Seal, to us and other Lords directed we do, in His Majesty's name and in obedience to His Commands, prorogue this Parliament to the day in the said Commission mentioned, to be then here holden, and this Parliament is accordingly prorogued to the said day in the said Commission mentioned.
End of the Fifth Session of the Thirty-seventh Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in the fourth year of the Reign of His Majesty King George VI.