Lords Sitting of 5 November 1940

Preamble
The House met, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION AND BENEFIT (BYSSINOSIS) BILL. [H.L.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA AND BURMA (THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE): My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to provide for payment of compensation or disablement benefit in the case of male workmen who have died from, or become totally and permanently incapacitated for work as a result of, the respiratory disease known as byssinosis and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid; and to move that it be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1ª.—(The Duke of Devonshire.)
On Question, Bill read 1ª, and to be printed.

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932:
BOROUGH OF CHELTENHAM ORDER.
BOROUGH OF STAFFORD ORDER.
URBAN DISTRICT OF SALTBURN AND MARSKE-BY-THE-SEA ORDER.
RURAL DISTRICT OF ETON (PARISH
OF IVER) ORDER.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: My Lords, I beg to move that the Orders made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department under the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, and laid before the House on the 16th of October last, be approved.
Moved, That the Orders made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department under the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, and laid before the House on the 16th of October last, be approved.—(The Duke of Devonshire.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

PROLONGATION OF PARLIAMENT BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT SIMON): My Lords, I move the Second Reading of this Bill. As your Lordships see, the enacting words of the Bill cover only three lines of print. That is an illustration of how large a matter may be contained in a very limited space. The operation of the Bill both constitutionally and practically is, of course, of the greatest importance. Constitutionally there can hardly be a more remarkable proof of the legislative omnipotence of Parliament than that it should be able by ordinary process of law to extend the period of its own life and to provide that members of the House of Commons, who are elected at most for five years, should continue as Members of Parliament in a Parliament which may last for six years. That has been done before, notably in the case of the Septennial Act in the early days of George I. The Septennial Act, as your Lordships recall, was passed in a Parliament which itself was constituted to have a maximum life of three years. It is, I believe, one of our real advantages, owing to the fact that we have no formal written Constitution, that in a time of emergency such a result can be achieved by the ordinary processes of legislation. I recall that Professor Dicey describes the Septennial Act as "at once the result and a standing proof of Parliamentary sovereignty."
Practically speaking, if I may turn to that aspect for one moment, the need for the present enactment must be manifest to us all, and I do not anticipate that any objection will be raised to it in any quarter. Our friends in the United States are indulging at this moment in the carrying through of a hotly-contested Presidential Election in their own country, but everybody will realise how in this country, when the thoughts and energies of every one of us are continually occupied in a struggle upon which depends the future of British freedom, we cannot afford to exhaust curselves in the domestic strife of a General Election. And yet, unless this Bill is passed, a General Election would inevitably be upon us in a few weeks for, as matters stand at this moment, the maximum life of the present Parliament must come to an end on
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November 25. We propose, therefore, to follow the precedent of the last war, when the life of the then existing Parliament was first extended by one year by the Act of 1916. I should perhaps add that the successive Acts carried during the last war for the purpose of prolonging the life of the then Parliament, dealt also with the question of the registration of electors. I should point out that that is unnecessary in the present case as these matters have been already dealt with separately by the Local Elections and Registration of Electors (Temporary Provisions) Act, 1939. It is, I think, desirable to keep these subjects separate and the explanation why we do not provide for the difficulties of a new register in the present Bill will be plain from what I have said.
Finally, I must repeat the statement which was made on behalf of the Government in another place when this Bill was being considered. I am able to inform your Lordships, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, that when a General Election becomes practicable—which I think we shall agree cannot possibly be until the close of the present war and probably some time after—it is the intention to give sufficient notice for the creation of a new register, and the interval which must elapse before the then expiring Parliament comes to a close will also afford an opportunity for Parliament to consider if it so desires questions connected with changes in our electoral system. That declaration, which was carefully framed with the authority of the Cabinet, is designed to make plain that these questions are left open for further consideration, if need be. That justifies the simplicity of the present Bill, which does nothing more than enact, as your Lordships see, that in place of the maximum life of the present Parliament being five years, as it would be under the terms of the Parliament Act, six years is substituted for five. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2ª.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
LORD ADDISON: My Lords, I know there is not a disposition in any quarter to question the necessity of this Bill and I will make only one or two observations in connection with it. It is obviously necessary now that this Bill should be passed because, on account of the diffi-

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culties of registration and other difficulties connected with the enormous displacement of population, it would be a practical impossibility to hold an Election just now, apart from the reasons connected with the war itself and the necessity for the non-diversion of our mental and physical energies from war ends. At the same time I would like to put a note of interrogation at the end of one sentence used by the noble and learned Viscount. I gathered that he said he did not think it would be possible to hold an Election at all until the close of the war. We none of us know how long the war will go on, and I do not think we should accept the proposition that it would not be possible to hold an Election during the war. It may be necessary to do so. We must not forget that we are fighting for the maintenance of democratic institutions, and therefore we do not necessarily agree that they must be put into cold storage during the time of the conference. Nevertheless I agree that in existing circumstances we should accept this Bill.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, I feel sure that all your Lordships will agree that the country would not wish to contemplate a General Election at the present time. Therefore your Lordships will be very ready to pass this Bill which has already passed the other House. There is no great issue for the country now to determine. Our political unity on the one question that commands the attention of all of us and of Europe and of the world is happily solid and complete. That is our strength. We see in France the results of a lack of such unity and it is the underlying disagreement within the public opinion of Germany and of Italy, although now concealed, which will ultimately develop and which will probably decide the fortunes of the war. Therefore if there were to be an Election held now there would be no real issue before the people and in all probability there would have to be an agreement between the Parties as now prevails at by-elections to avoid contests. The consequence of that would be that a General Election would have to return practically the same House of Commons as now. There would, however, be this difference, that the same old Parliament would be given the status of a new one, and the present artificial conditions would have their effect during a period of perhaps four or five years.
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That would not really be to strengthen the control of the people over Parliament, but in effect would be detrimental to it.
If, on the other hand, there were to be contests in a number of constituencies, then candidates fighting against one another for the support of the electorate would be bound to emphasize and perhaps exaggerate differences, probably on subordinate and ephemeral questions, and the new Parliament, so far as it was elected by contests, would be elected on those secondary issues. That might perhaps result in a House of Commons being elected which would not reflect the permanent desires of the electorate. Furthermore, such contests, if they took place, could not but have an effect upon the cohesion of the Government which consists of men of various Parties; and it would be difficult for them to continue sitting side by side in Cabinet or inter-departmental conferences while their political followers were fighting for their electoral lives, particularly now that the present Prime Minister has accepted the chairmanship of one of the great Parliamentary Parties—a decision which I am bound to say that in present circumstances I regret.
There are also the minor considerations which have been incidentally mentioned by the noble Lord who has just spoken and by the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack—that large parts of the population are away from their ordinary homes, that there is no recent register and that there are difficulties with regard to the black-out and political meetings which would greatly detract from the effectiveness of any General Election. Those, however, are only minor considerations; the main one is that to which I have previously referred. It leads to the clear conclusion that the Election should be postponed and that this Bill should be passed. But let us remember that this is a very grave matter, and ought not to be dealt with by Parliament in any light-hearted spirit or as though it were a mere matter of routine. Probably no other Constitution in the world could permit such a procedure; and it is, as the noble and learned Lord Chancellor has said, one of the great advantages of the absence of a written Constitution that our forms are elastic and that we are able to meet the clear exigencies of a situation such as this without any extra-constitutional action such as would be needed in some other countries. It should be realised and

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placed on record, however, that Parliament passes this Bill only because of the clear necessity for it and because there is substantial agreement on the matter both in Parliament and in the country.
I notice that the Home Secretary, in introducing this Bill in another place, said that the life of this Parliament would be continued until November 25, 1941. A leading ex-Minister, speaking in another House, said in effect that if this Bill were passed there would be no possibility of a General Election for the duration of the Act. That, of course, is not so; this Bill permits this Parliament to continue for another year, but does not require it to be so continued. There may be a Dissolution within the year and, if the war should end, if the collapse in Germany should occur earlier than now seems probable, certainly a General Election might be required within the twelve months and would obviously be fully legal.
When it does come, certain contingencies have to be envisaged to which reference has been made by the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack. There have been two discussions in this House of recent years, both of them initiated by my noble friend Lord Rea, one on May 4, 1938, and the other on March 12 of this year, in which we debated questions of electoral reform and of redistribution in connection with a General Election. Now, redistribution has not been mentioned to-day, but it is a very important matter in this connection. The last distribution of seats was twenty-two years ago, in 1918. Since then, there have been great changes in the distribution of the population, and the noble Lord, Lord Jessel, who took part in those debates to which I have referred, mentioned several striking instances. In one constituency there are now 168,000 electors who elect one Member, and in other constituencies there are over 100,000. What is to happen with regard to that before the General Election takes place?
The noble and learned Viscount, in introducing this Bill, has stated the proposals of the Government. They would be to allow an interval to elapse after the end of the war and before the General Election took place, in which a new register would be drawn up and furthermore, apparently, matters of electoral reform considered. I did not hear the word "redistribution" used, though it
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is of great importance in this issue; but I Was glad to note that the Lord Chancellor's statement of the proposals of the Government differed somewhat from that made by the Home Secretary and was of a more definite character. That of the Home Secretary was extremely guarded. I think that I shall be in order in quoting it, because it was in the nature of a Ministerial statement. He said:
"No one can foresee what circumstances will arise, but in normal conditions it will be the desire of His Majesty's Government, when a General Election again becomes practicable, to give sufficient notice for the creation of a new register, and this interval would also afford an opportunity for the House to consider, if it so desired, questions connected with changes of our electoral system."
The Lord Chancellor, I was glad to see, was much more specific; he used the word "intention" instead of "desire," and omitted the qualifying words. I think we can take it, therefore, that when the war is over there will in fact be an interval during which questions of electoral reform can be considered, and presumably also questions of redistribution. Your Lordship's House has taken, if I may say so, a more progressive view on the question of electoral reform than the other House, and has frequently passed proposals which would be acceptable to those who sit on these Benches, but which have not yet become law. The Liberal Party, I think I may say, would certainly be prepared to participate now in any conference of Parties in order to endeavour to achieve agreement on these matters before the war ends and another General Election takes place; but, if the other Parties are not prepared to do so, obviously no such steps can be taken.
I would, in conclusion, emphasize the great need for an adequate interval after the war and before the General Election takes place in which these matters may be considered, and which will give the nation time to collect itself and to reflect upon broad political issues. We ought not to repeat the scandal of 1918, when a General Election took place three weeks after the Armistice and when a Parliament was elected under the stress of emotion and excitement which sat for four years, leading to some unhappy results and ending in a period of confusion which resulted in three General Elections being held in three successive years—1922, 1923 and 1924. I trust, therefore, that an interval for reflection will be allowed to the people when

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the war is over and before they are called upon to choose a Parliament which will have to deal with matters of fundamental and lasting importance, perhaps over a period of several years.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I will just add one or two words at the end of the debate, first to say that, as I had expected, I am happy to find there is no difference of opinion that the Bill should be passed. I am glad my noble friend who has just made so effective a speech did not convict me of the error of saying that this Bill necessarily carried on the life of this Parliament to a particular date next year. We none of us know how long we shall live, whether individuals or institutions, and of course there always remains the Prerogative power to dissolve Parliament. The effect of this and of similar Bills is merely to enact that the maximum life which Parliament can live shall be that laid down in the Statute.
I must be careful to make it plain that I had no intention in my remarks of departing at all from the declaration which was made on behalf of the Government in another place, and I do not think I did so. We will see how the record comes out. The language that was used in another place and which was quoted by my noble friend Lord Samuel was that "when a General Election again becomes practicable" it was "the desire"—I may have said "the intention"; I will say both the intention and the desire of His Majesty's Government
"to give sufficient notice for the creation of a new register, and this interval would also afford an opportunity for Parliament to consider, if it so desired, questions connected with changes of our electoral system."
I must not be understood of course to offer on behalf of the Government any further assurance than that.
What we all have to do now is to make provision for the present emergency. It may be, as the noble Lord, Lord Addison, said, that circumstances will so change during the war as to make the inexpediency or the possibility of a General Election something different from what the situation now is—I do not know. I do not wish to affirm either that it will be or that it will not be so, and it is for that very reason that the Government do not propose to extend the maximum life of
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the present Parliament by more than twelve months. Let us see what that twelve months bring forth and we shall then be in a better position hereafter to determine what is the proper course to pursue. Well, finding as I do that your Lordships are of one mind as to the carriage of this Bill, I will put the Question. I do not propose to invite the House to take the Committee stage upon it, and the final steps in the measure will not be undertaken until to-morrow.
On Question, Bill read 2ª; Committee negatived.

THE WAR SITUATION.
LORD ADDISON LORD ADDISON had the following Notice on the Paper: To ask His Majesty's Government whether they have any statement to make on foreign affairs; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to ask the noble Viscount the question which stands in my name.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (VISCOUNT HALIFAX): My Lords, I am, as usual, grateful to the noble Lord for the opportunity which he has given me to make a short statement on some of the recent developments in the international situation. In a war of this nature there is scarcely any limit to the topics that Parliament might usefully on such an occasion as this review; but were I to attempt to cover that ground completely I should obviously make too great a draft upon the patience of your Lordships. I therefore propose to restrict myself to what I conceive to be the two principal matters that at this time are predominant in your Lordship's minds, and those two matters are the particular features at the present moment of the war in the air and on the sea, and in the second place the situation in the Balkans that has arisen out of the Italian attack on Greece.
With regard to the first, your Lordships have had the opportunity in the course of the last day or two of observing in the Press certain figures of the enemy's air losses in the last twelve weeks, and I think that even a layman can say without undue presumption that a loss of 2,433 bombers and fighters in aircraft and something over 6,000 in personnel in those weeks must certainly have given to those directing the air effort of Germany

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rather bitter food for thought. And, of course, added to those losses that are proved must also be the unknown figures of aircraft which never reach their bases on return, though they are not actually seen to fail by our defending forces. And no doubt, further, there must be large numbers of aircraft which crash on return, either because of damage received or by reason of adverse weather conditions. The picture thus presented does, I think, give ground for solid encouragement, and daily, certainly, we pile up a greater debt of gratitude to all those, from the Air Staff through all ranks of the Air Force to aircraftmen, who are giving their energies and often their lives to defend this country.
Foiled in the air, the enemy has recently redoubled his efforts to starve us into surrender by cutting off our seaborne supplies, and there, too, he has failed. With the heavier burdens thrown on us after the collapse of France, the Royal Navy and the Mercantile Marine have none the less been able to keep going the steady stream of supplies from overseas which means so much to us, and I doubt whether all our history shows any finer example of dogged courage and persistence. Our losses have of late been heavy, but not more than we can bear, and with the advent and the bringing into active operation of the United States destroyers, and with our own new construction now being completed, our Services may look forward to some easement of that strain.
LORD STRABOLGI: Is the noble Viscount referring to new construction of warships or merchant ships, or both?
VISCOUNT HALIFAX: I was referring mainly to the new construction of warships—anti-submarine construction—but, of course, the other is also relevant.
I now turn to say something in the more specific region of foreign affairs. Your Lordships may remember that when I last spoke in this House on the subject of Greece I described the Greek Government and the Greek people as being firmly determined to defend their hard-won independence and integrity should Italy pass from threats to a violation of their territory, and I went on to state that His Majesty's Government stood by the guarantee given to Greece in April, 1939, at the time of Italy's rape of Albania. The Italian Government have now added to their record of cowardly aggression on
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small States, and, as we all know, on October 28, at three o'clock in the morning, the Italian Minister at Athens delivered to the Greek Prime Minister an ultimatum demanding the consent of the Greek Government to the occupation of unspecified strategic points by six o'clock that morning. The ultimatum, of course, as might be expected, contained a number of quite demonstrably baseless charges against the Greek Government. Your Lordships may have noticed that, after reading these charges, General Metaxas inquired what were the strategic points which the Italians wished to occupy, and when the Italian Minister answered that he did not know, General Metaxas did not hesitate to reply that he considered the demand, and the manner in which it was made, constituted a declaration of war. I really doubt whether cynicism could any further go—the Italian Minister ignorant of the strategic points that he was supposedly instructed to demand‡
Half an hour before the expiry of the time-limit, the Italians opened hostilities on the Albanian border, and shortly afterwards proceeded to bomb the airport of Athens and the port of Patras. There can only be one feeling of the warmest admiration both for the manner in which General Metaxas contemptuously rejected the Italian ultimatum and for the spirited defence of the Greek armed forces. The task of this country in the discharge of obligations assumed in partnership with France, when France is no longer there to play her part, is obviously made more difficult, but I need hardly say that it is the intention of His Majesty's Government to do all in their power to assist Greece in defending herself against this unwarranted aggression by her rapacious neighbour. Measures to this end have already been taken and other measures are in hand. Your Lordships will not, I think, expect me to be more precise. It will, perhaps, suffice to say that we make the cause of Greece our own.
These events, of course, have not been without direct influence on, as they have been a direct cause of increased difficulty for, other nations, Greece's neighbours. The position in Yugoslavia, sufficiently difficult since the defection of France, has been rendered yet more delicate as the result of this latest Italian move. Geographically, Yugoslavia lies mid-way between Germany and Italy, and I doubt

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not that both these countries are attempting to take the fullest advantage of this situation. The Yugoslav people and Government have been resolute in the face of Italian and German pressure, and they are only too well aware, I fancy, of the ambitious ideas that these neighbours of theirs may cherish; but we are confident that they will reject, as they have hitherto rejected, any demands from Germany or Italy which are incompatible with Yugoslav sovereignty. They have before their eyes the example of the fate of Rumania which provides, perhaps, the most characteristic example in this war of the fate that attends a country which fails to show a firm front to German menaces and to detect the hollowness of German promises.
Rumania may well now be regretting that she did not show greater determination and courage in the face of realities. What, I wonder, has it profited her to throw herself, as she has done, into the arms of Germany? She has lost great slices of her national territory, and now she is being nakedly exploited by Germany for Germany's own ends. Already morally occupied by Germany, she is in the highway to becoming physically occupied by Germany as well. Your Lordships will have seen that, in anticipation of such physical occupation, arrangements were made for those members of the British colony in Rumania, who wished to do so, to leave the country. For the present His Majesty's Minister and a reduced staff are remaining at Bucharest with the object of protecting the remaining British subjects and British interests. The attitude of Bulgaria has, of course, an importance of its own. His Majesty's Government fully appreciate the difficulties of her situation, and they welcome the assurances given by His Majesty the King of the Bulgarians at the opening of the Bulgarian Parliament on October 29, in which he asserted the readiness of all Bulgarians to defend their independence.
As your Lordships would have naturally expected, we have been in close consultation with the Turkish Government regarding the situation that has arisen, and the attitude of that Government was stated with great clarity and great resolution by the President of Turkey in his speech at the opening of the Turkish Parliament three or four days ago.
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Thanks to the wise and far-sighted policy of the Turkish Government, Turkey constitutes a very solid barrier against aggression, and I do not doubt that your Lordships will fully share the confidence of her President in the ability of the Turkish Army to carry out any tasks that may fall to it to perform. For myself, I would take this opportunity of endorsing and repeating, on the part of His Majesty's Government, the words used by the President when he said that the bonds of alliance which unite our two countries are solid and unbreakable. We have, on this side, the same faith in Turkey as we believe Turkey has in us.
The relations of His Majesty's Government with Egypt and with the Egyptian Government are, I am glad to say, close and cordial, as is indeed only natural in view of the Treaty of Alliance, which the Egyptian Government are implementing both in the letter and in the spirit with great good will. I have no doubt that Italy thought that her entry into the war would be a sign to Egypt that she was preparing to carry out the promises to the Arabs made by the Axis Powers. After all, we must never forget that Signor Mussolini is the self-styled Protector of Islam, and the German propaganda service only recently issued a statement of the deep sympathy Germany feels with the cause of Arab independence and said that her partner, Italy, was in full accord with these generous emotions. But I do not think that either the Egyptians or the Arabs in general have such short memories and I do not think that they are likely to forget the Italian behaviour in Libya, in Albania or in Abyssinia.
It was perhaps an unfortunate coincidence of events that the German statement of deep sympathy with the Arab cause was immediately followed, if not accompanied, by the bombing of Bahrein and Saudi-Arabian territory, and I do not think the Arab world will have been blind to the significance of that. Signor Mussolini had indeed promised that Egyptians had nothing to fear during the whole month of Ramadan, but that promise was almost immediately broken by the dropping of bombs near Cairo, and therefore I do not think that it is likely that the promises made by these Powers will hold any great attractions for Egypt or for Arab States. Egypt remains contented,

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prosperous and independent, and to that prosperity we have ourselves made a powerful contribution by guaranteeing a market for the entire cotton crop of 1940.
As your Lordships will have observed, the Secretary of State for War has been paying a personal visit to Egypt in order to be able to assure both His Majesty's Government and the Egyptian Government that nothing that is humanly possible is left undone, first, to maintain the security of Egypt, the Suez Canal, and the Sudan; and, secondly, as opportunity offers, to engage and strike at the Italian forces on the frontiers of those lands. I am glad to say that my right honourable friend has expressed great satisfaction with all he has seen there. Sir Hubert Huddleston, the new Governor-General of the Anglo-Egyptian Sudan, has arrived in Khartoum. He is no stranger, as your Lordships know, to that country, which he knows well, and where he spent many years in active command of the Sudan Defence Force. I have no doubt that his return as Governor-General is warmly welcomed by the Sudanese, whose military forces, your Lordships will have been glad but not surprised to see, have been distinguishing themselves in some very useful encounters against greatly superior Italian strength.
I perhaps might mention that we have recently welcomed in London the Prime Minister and the Minister for Foreign Affairs of Belgium, who, after many vicissitudes and much wandering, have succeeded in reaching this country, in joining their colleagues here, and in formally transferring the seat of the Belgian Government to the United Kingdom. The Belgian Minister of Finance, immediately on their arrival, once more in a broadcast address reaffirmed the determination of the Belgian Government to continue with the United Kingdom the struggle against Germany with all the resources at their command. I trust that the arrival of the Prime Minister and the Minister for Foreign Affairs will lead to the fullest organisation of free Belgians everywhere in resistance to our common enemy.
Lastly I must say a word or two about the position in France. Herr Hitler has prosecuted and is prosecuting his design of attempting to disintegrate the whole life and future of the French nation, and
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I think it is in that light that we must look upon his recent meeting and conversation with Marshal Pétain. We are not, indeed, fully informed of what has passed between Marshal Pétain and Herr Hitler, and it would no doubt be well to suspend judgment until we know what return France is asked to make for such concessions as may have been offered by the Germans. The Armistice terms were cruel enough. The Germans have, since that time, gone far beyond them, and Herr Hitler has once again shown that his word is not any very secure foundation on which to build a policy. We realise to the full the difficulties of Marshal Pétain's position. No doubt he hoped by entering the path of collaboration that the load of suffering of France might, in the near future, be eased, that the lot of the French prisoners in Germany might be improved, that the burden of occupation expenses might be lessened, and that the line of demarcation between the two parts of France might be made more flexible.
Whatever he may have hoped, or may hope, to gain for France, we cannot believe that a Government headed by a man of honour like Marshal Pétain would commit France to a course which would be a stab in the back of her former Ally. We, on our side, have repeatedly rejected all suggestions from the enemy for an agreement with us at the expense of France. Is it too much to hope that those who direct French policy may see more and more clearly, as German plans are unfolded, that in the end the cause of French survival is the same as ours, and that any action that would have the effect of aggravating our difficulties, and which, of course, we should have to meet with whatever counter action circumstances might demand, must also directly deny that which must be the prayer of every loyal Frenchman that he may see France restored to her former state and greatness?
LORD ADDISON: My Lords, I am sure everyone of us will welcome this opportunity of hearing the review just made by the Foreign Secretary. It illustrates in a very striking way the ever-changing aspects of this great contest. It is only a short time since we had a brief Recess—two or three weeks or less ago—and then at our reassembly a number of matters came up, some of them of great

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and critical importance, which, by most of us at any rate, had been more or less unforeseen. Now, after a further short interval, we have, not perhaps unforeseen but entirely new developments brought before us, and who knows what will come next?
It is not in my province to traverse the many matters mentioned by the noble Viscount, but I will make some observations on two or three. He first mentioned, I am sure with the agreement of us all, the remarkable results—results which will have an enduring influence, possibly, on history—of the exploits of our airmen. He paid a high tribute to what we owe to them, and the results of the Blitzkrieg, so far as the air is concerned, since August 8, in this country, speak for themselves. But on that I would like to ask the noble Viscount if he is going to make any use of this significant and remarkable achievement. I believe that it may well be—we all recognise that it may well be—the deciding battle of the war. It may have given Great Britain that opportunity for the assembly and mobilising of all her resources, aided by supplies from across the Atlantic, which will determine the issue of the war. More than once I have exhorted the noble Viscount to good work in spreading abroad such encouraging news as can be spread. I know very well that he is not in a position to state publicly what steps, if any, he takes to give effect to those exhortations, but I will repeat them. I cannot imagine anything which, if it were brought home to the oppressed millions in Czechoslovakia, France, Holland, Belgium and other countries, would give them more hope and more encouragement and stiffen their backs a bit, than the news of the results of these air battles over our own shores. I hope that the most energetic and relentless steps are being taken and will continue to be taken to encourage these oppressed peoples by a full knowledge of what has happened.
I have nothing to say as to the very accurate description which the noble Viscount gave of Mussolini's action in attacking Greece. "Here," Mussolini thought, "is somebody weak and a fit object for my valour"—just as he thought France was when she was beaten down. It is entirely characteristic of the man, and
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every one of us rejoices that the Greeks are putting up a good fight. They must be facing tremendous odds and one can only hope that British help so far as it can be afforded will rapidly be given. It is not for me to make suggestions affecting matters of strategy, but at the same time there are obvious advantages presented to our Naval and Air Forces by the entry of Greece into the war—advantages very manifest and perhaps exceedingly valuable, perhaps having a determining influence upon the character of the war in the Eastern Mediterranean. Naturally the noble Viscount did not tell us what His Majesty's Government are proposing to do and I would not ask him. All I can say is that we shall all be profoundly disappointed if effective and swift action, so far as it can be, is not taken. We know that whatever is done must be conditioned by what we can do, and it is that deplorable deficiency in supplies to which some of us have referred time after time in this House and elsewhere that I am afraid is the determining factor as to what we can do with regard to the air. Therefore it is of first-rate importance that reinforcement of our supplies shall be pushed forward in every way as rapidly as possible.
Now may I say just a word on a subject which is delicate but upon which some of us have misgivings—that is, the highest direction of our Admiralty effort? It is so very important in view of the situation in the Mediterranean that that should be of the very best. We have not yet had a proper explanation of what happened over the loss of the ship "Glorious" and we have had the loss of the "Empress of Britain" under very disconcerting circumstances quite recently. Then there was the slip through of the ships to Dakar. Somehow or other these things do not make us feel at all comfortable. Added to that, of course, we have had the terrible sinkings of the last two or three weeks. I know that we must take account of the acquisition of French ports on the Bay of Biscay and of other advantages which the enemy have reaped by their successes in France and perhaps the reinforcement of their U-boat resources by Italian boats. We all hope and pray that very soon, as has happened before more than once, this wave of sinkings will diminish, but I confess I feel a little uncomfortable—I will not put it higher than that—and I believe

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many people in the country feel uncomfortable about these happenings. The Dakar business has not been explained at all and I do hope that the Government will be no respecters of persons in securing that there is the most efficient direction possible for this vital Service.
I would like also to make one or two comments on another subject arising out of the very interesting and illuminating review which the noble Viscount has given to us. It reflects to some extent on his own Department, but what I say is said, as he knows, with complete good will and only with an anxiety that we should keep in our minds things that are vital to success. The noble Viscount did not mention Russia in his statement. I do not think I have any more liking for the mode of government in Russia than has anyone else here, but that has nothing to do with it and it has nothing to do with him. Perhaps he did not mention Russia because he had nothing new to say. That would be a very good reason. I am sure that Sir Stafford Cripps has a very difficult job. In times past we have been guilty of serious neglect of our opportunities for cultivating better relations with this great and vial State. One cannot forget the folly of the Munich episode. All that I would say is that, although I recognise that it was not material in the review which we had been given to discuss the efforts which are being made—I am sure that they are being made—to improve our relations with Russia in every possible way, I would remind the Foreign Secretary that many of us are exceedingly anxious that there should be a more active and alert diplomacy on behalf of Great Britain in respect of this matter than has often been the case in the past.
Somehow or other, in matters of diplomacy the "other fellows" seem always to take the initiative. I do not see why they should. I do not quite know why it has been so difficult for His Majesty's Government to be better informed as to what is happening at Vichy. Ribbentrop and Hitler keep running about and having much advertised interviews. I would not suggest that the British Foreign Secretary should imitate their example in that respect; but, without going so far as that, I should like to see a great deal more enterprise in our diplomacy. I do not want us always to seem to wait upon these "other fellows,"
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which we certainly seem to be doing at Vichy—waiting to find out what they are up to. That is a feature which unfortunately, I am afraid, characterises our diplomatic efforts fairly extensively; it is not limited to our relative helplessness at Vichy and to our blunders in Moscow. I wonder what efforts we made in Rumania. We seem to have taken the position there lying down. I do not know whether we have, but nothing has been said to lead us to suppose anything to the contrary.
What applies to our diplomacy and representation there applies also else-where, and certainly in Japan. I am not quite sure whether our diplomatic representation is quite in keeping with the necessities of the time. I am not going to indulge in any cheap criticism, but I am judging by results. It is often said that the standard of diplomats which Britain maintains is entirely worthy to be compared, so far as sartorial and other elegances are concerned, with, let us say, the period of the Regency; but I am not quite sure whether the standard of efficiency of our diplomatists, particularly in some of the Balkan countries, has been maintained and improved as it ought to have been. I do not myself think that it has. Just as we expect other Departments—the War Office, the Air Ministry and the Admiralty—to see to it that their staffs are the best possible, regardless of all other considerations, so I should like to ask the Foreign Secretary to review his staff and his diplomatic representatives in the different countries. They certainly have not served us with outstanding success in the last year or two, and I cannot help thinking that perhaps a little new blood might be useful.
Take what is, I believe, the distinguished success of Lord Lothian in the United States. We all felt confident when he was appointed that he would be a great success, and we owe a great debt of gratitude to the noble Viscount opposite for appointing him. His success is due to the fact that he was not so much of the stock pattern. I think that in existing circumstances, if we had confined our diplomatic representation in Washington to what may be described as the stock pattern, we should not have been as well served. That affords an excellent illustration of the necessity of bringing new minds and new methods into this important service. I have men-

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tioned this subject more than once before. I regard these questions of propaganda, of the presentation of our case, and of the continual review of staffs, whether Service staffs or diplomatic staffs, as of first-rate importance. I am sure that the noble Viscount will not misinterpret these reflections. They are made with one purpose and with one thought only: to enable us to prosecute the war with greater efficiency, and therefore more quickly to bring it to a successful end. I beg to move for Papers.
LORD MOTTISTONE: My Lords, there is only one point to which I would venture to draw your attention. While thanking the noble Viscount for the very clear statement which he has made, I hope that perhaps before we leave this debate he will emphasize one aspect of it. All of us—certainly all of us on these Benches, and I am sure that I may say in all quarters of the House—rejoiced to hear the promise made by the Foreign Secretary to give effective aid to Greece in her struggle to maintain her independence against the unprovoked attack of Italy. He mentioned that there would be naval support and we have read in the Press of military support by the landing of our troops in Greek territory. What must be present in the minds of all of us, however, is that in the case of every country which has been overrun since this war began, it is the attack from the air, and especially the failure of the country overrun to be able to respond by counter air attack, which has been the primary cause of the downfall. I am sure that His Majesty's Government fully appreciate this, but I speak, I Know, the minds not only of your Lordships in this House but of the people outside when I express the hope that His Majesty's Government will give all possible support in the air to the Greek people in their struggle, by whatever methods.
I would not for a moment ask the noble Viscount, even if he were able to do so, to give details of any kind, but I know that the people of this country would never forgive any Government which did not rush to the aid of Greece by every means in their power, not out of romantic attachment for this small people but because of the feeling that we have been too late on other occasions, often not through our own fault. I am sure that we shall
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not be too late this time. I hope, therefore, that the noble Viscount, when he comes to reply, can say that without imprudence, but taking all risks, as we know that the Royal Air Force and the Fleet Air Arm are anxious and ready to do, they will give the Greeks all the support that they can in the air. If he can do so we shall indeed be grateful, and I think it will be good for our cause.
LORD NOEL-BUXTON: My Lords, while thanking the noble Viscount for his most interesting statement, I desire to make a suggestion in regard to the much-discussed question of a somewhat fuller declaration of the aims that we have in view in the war. The Prime Minister, replying lately to a question in another place, said that the time has not yet come. I want to suggest that it should not be far off. We must agree with the Prime Minister that the rebuilding of the world depends on the degree to which it proves to have been destroyed. But the broad outline of the principle for which we are fighting cannot await the final victory. Victory itself would be hastened if the ideals that we have in view are clearly seen. The German people at large are moved by a strange enthusiasm, largely due to the fact that they have been given a very clear vision of some aim which, whether noble or ignoble, is clear; and we ought to cultivate an enthusiasm on our side for which we have far greater and sounder material. No one is more fitted than the Foreign Secretary himself to put our ideals in a noble form.
The German aim was lately defined by the German Minister Funk in a very crude but rather telling way. He sketched the economic domination that Germany would establish. He promised that the peculiar German methods of trade, which have been unfortunately successful in the Balkans, will be a great feature of the German economic régime. The German currency, he said, was to dominate all others, free foreign exchange was to become a thing of the past—he denounced it up hill and down dale—and labour was to be distributed by force so as to suit German convenience. Well, such a plan, however odious it looks to us, has attractions for a very large and influential class of people who, as directors of policy, would no doubt benefit by employment

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under the German régime—leaders of industry in very large numbers—and it is attractive also to those masses who are impoverished under the present system, as also to all the enemies of Communism. Therefore it surely needs a more clear-cut alternative associated with our side.
It is not enough to praise liberty to very large classes who may think that they should be more prosperous than they are under democratic rule. We should be able to pass, if our outline of policy is clear, to the offensive in propaganda, not only in the Allied countries, but in the hostile countries themselves. Could we not base our programme, not of course in detail but in broader outline, on the general principles of the free association of nations, especially of the nations of Europe? It is not enough to fob off public feeling by statements as to the appropriate moment, expressed by a member of the Government lately in language which did not make a very happy impression when he said that "the appropriate moment is the moment which is appropriate." The Prime Minister very finely said, "The right to guide the course of history is the noblest prize of victory." Therefore surely we should conclude that the world ought to know what general use we shall make of victory when the time comes. Let us give an impression of knowing clearly what we want and so develop to the full the power to obtain victory at the earliest moment.
VISCOUNT HALIFAX: My Lords, perhaps I may in two or three sentences answer one or two of the observations that have been made, and if I differ from them I do not differ in any controversial spirit. First of all, the noble Lord who followed me, Lord Addison, was, I think, perhaps unwittingly, less than just to those of our diplomatic representatives who represent His Majesty in the Balkan countries, and who have been doing so in circumstances of extreme difficulty. I can assure him, of course, that none of them—and indeed no diplomatic representative—would be at their posts unless His Majesty's Government, and I, I suppose, primarily, thought that they were fit for the responsibilities that rest upon them. And therefore, if any complaint was ever to be made against them, it is to me, and as against me, that the complaint should be addressed, rather than by a general disparagement of a body of men who are
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doing their duty, as I have said, under circumstances of extreme difficulty.
But I would also add this. The noble Lord has spoken on more than one occasion of what he terms—I am not sure whether these are his words, but what he sees as firm diplomacy. With all respect, I would remind him that when the world is in a state of war, and when people and Governments and countries in difficulty are only immediately concerned to look at what is to be their early fate, as measured by tanks and aeroplanes and instruments of force, your diplomacy in words may be as firm as it likes, but unless you can satisfy them on the points of their immediate anxiety we cannot always achieve the result merely by what the noble Lord would call firm diplomacy.
The noble Lord, Lord Mottistone, expressed the general feeling in the House in what he said about Greece, and I have no hesitation at all in repeating to him and to the House that it is the determination of His Majesty's Government to give to the Greeks all support in their power, and that we are fully alive to the fact that in that support the air probably holds a position of predominant importance.
The noble Lord who spoke last, Lord Noel-Buxton, renewed a plea that he has made on other occasions in this House for a more precise statement of the war aims of His Majesty's Government. With a great deal that he said I am sure every member of His Majesty's Government would be able to find himself in agreement. Especially do I recognise the importance of what he said as to the desirability of being able to set up for the consideration of Europe and the world, to say nothing of our own people, a picture alternative to that picture that Hitler and those who work for him have sketched as to the future. It is not necessary, I hope, to assure him that His Majesty's Government are greatly preoccupied with the consideration of these matters. He would, I think, be not unwilling to leave to His Majesty's Government the responsibility for deciding what is the appropriate time at which to make such a statement as he has in mind. Obviously it must depend on a good many considerations, but on the main issue as to the importance of bringing these matters to effective consideration there is no difference between him and His Majesty's Government.
LORD ADDISON: My Lords, there were two points I mentioned to which I had hoped the noble Viscount would refer. Perhaps it is not too late for him to do so. One is the question regarding propaganda in occupied countries, and the other whether he can tell us anything with respect to our relations with Russia. If he has nothing to say I shall be content.
VISCOUNT HALIFAX: My Lords, I apologise to the noble Lord. These points were in my mind, but they slipped out of it. With regard to Russia, he correctly interpreted my thought in what he said that the omission of any reference to questions concerning Russia in my speech was merely because I had done my best to deal with them on a recent occasion, and, as I said at the beginning of my speech, one cannot cover the whole field. I do not think there is anything I can usefully add. The Ambassador in Moscow is, as always, using his best efforts—and, I hope, feeling that his efforts are being supported by His Majesty's Government—with the object of removing any misunderstandings that may exist between us and the Soviet Government, and so building foundations for the avoidance of such misunderstandings in future. In that work we shall certainly do our best to proceed.
With regard to the matter of propaganda, there the noble Lord is entirely preaching to the converted. I can assure him that I am as fully alive as he is to the great importance of getting a true knowledge of facts on which ultimate judgment as to the future issues of the war can best be founded to all those people in the occupied territories all over Europe. He is perfectly right in feeling that nothing could be more encouraging to that spirit of resistance, which is one of the principal influences on oar side in this struggle, than such a knowledge truly brought. However, I shall have pleasure in passing on what he has said to the Department primarily concerned with this work, and I can assure him that in that respect at least a full measure of regard will be had to what he has advised.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

UNEMPLOYMENT IN NORTHERN IRELAND.
LORD DAVIES LORD DAVIES rose to draw attention to the high incidence of unemployment in
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Northern Ireland and to urge His Majesty's Government to take immediate steps to alleviate the position by the establishment of factories for the production of war material; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name. I have put this Motion on the Paper in order to draw attention to the abnormal incidence of unemployment in Northern Ireland. I regret that this matter has not been brought to your Lordship's attention by some member of your Lordship's House who is more familiar than I am with the conditions in that part of the country, but I make no apology for doing so because the figures of unemployment which I shall give are so alarming and distressing that no one can help being impressed with the urgency and seriousness of the matter.
Everyone is agreed, I am sure, that unemployment, not only in Ireland but everywhere else, is a curse. It is the greatest blot on our economic system or, as some people prefer to call it, our capitalist system. I maintain that every person has a right to work, and, if his services cannot be absorbed by private enterprise, it is the duty of the State to find employment for him on some work of public utility rather than allow him to become dependent on the "dole." I imagine that most of your Lordships will find yourselves in agreement with this general principle. It is, however, a principle which has been consistently ignored and flouted by the Governments of this country during the last twenty years. Not one of them has seriously applied this principle to the question of unemployment.
I ventured to point out in this House a few months before the outbreak of war that, whereas the number of unemployed in this country was at that time 1,300,000, there were practically no unemployed at all in Germany. I urged the noble Lord opposite to utilise the services of our unemployed in strengthening our national defences and in increasing the output of munitions in anticipation of the struggle which was then so rapidly approaching. It is bad enough that there should be unemployment in peace-time, but it is nothing short of a public scandal that it should exist in time of war, when the services of every man and woman should be mobilised in defence of the country and when it is the right and privilege of

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everyone to participate in our war effort. It is true that since the outbreak of war the unemployment figures in this country have fallen from 1400,000 to 867,000, but with all the talent at the disposal of the Government the problem has not yet been solved. There are still nearly 900,000 persons on the unemployment register. This is the position after twelve months of war, the most stupendous struggle the world has ever witnessed, when we are fighting for our very existence. There are still not far short—only 100,000 short—of a million persons who cannot find a job of work at a moment when there are so many urgent jobs to be done.
Now we come to the position in Northern Ireland. There, the percentage of unemployed for July was 22.2 per cent, compared with 5·7 per cent. for the United Kingdom. The latest returns available are those for the month of August and the comparative figures are: Great Britain, 5·4 per cent.; Northern Ireland, 20.9 per cent. I regret to say that the next highest figure is that of Wales, which is 10.3 per cent. What it means is that out of every 100 insured persons in Northern Ireland twenty-one are unemployed, and the percentage of unemployment there is four times as great as it is in Great Britain. May I give your Lordships another comparison? Unemployment throughout the country fell from 1,326,000 in July, 1939, to 898,600 in July, 1940, a decrease of 427,000. The figures for Northern Ireland, however, during the same period actually increased from 69,700 to 71,400. I am sure your Lordships will agree that this is a most unsatisfactory and tragic state of affairs.
The responsibility lies with the Government here. The Government in Northern Ireland are helpless in the matter. However willing and anxious the latter may be to play their part in our war effort, they have neither the resources nor the powers to establish more industries and munition factories. The question we have to ask ourselves is how this waste of man-power can be best utilised to promote our war effort. That, I venture to suggest, is for the Government of this country to decide. How many, for instance, of those unemployed persons are fit for service in the Army? Why is it that conscription has not been applied to Northern Ireland as it has to the United Kingdom? What steps
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have been taken by the Minister of Supply, in collaboration with the Minister of Labour in Northern Ireland, to establish war industries there? It may be objected, of course, that Ireland is not a particularly safe place in which to plant war industries, but I would remind the Government that up to now Ulster and the adjoining counties have been practically immune from air raids. As the crow flies I believe the distance from Belfast to the nearest point in enemy occupied territory is about 400 miles. The distance from the French coast to Coventry, for example, is only 200 miles. Consequently it would appear that the risk from bombing attacks is far less in Northern Ireland than in some of the industrial centres of this country.
In conclusion, I may also point out that this is not the first time that attention has been drawn to this matter. It has been repeatedly raised in another place. As far back as February questions were asked and vague promises made by the Minister of Supply that some action would be taken to terminate unemployment in Northern Ireland, but so far, with the exception of placing a few Government contracts, nothing appears to have been done. It seems to be another example of drift. The Government cannot plead that they do not possess the powers to remedy this unfortunate state of affairs. What they apparently lack is the will do it. May I therefore appeal to the Government to deal with this urgent matter at the earliest possible moment? After all, the loyal people of Ulster are entitled to play their part in winning this war. We are responsible for the defence of their country, and we are also responsible for giving them an opportunity of pulling their weight and of utilising their services to the best advantage. I beg to move.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, I should like, in a few words, to associate myself with the observations that have fallen from my noble friend, who has, I believe, rendered a good service in bringing this matter to the attention of the House. The domestic concerns of Northern Ireland are of course the province of the Northern Ireland Government, but it is no derogation of their status or authority for this matter to be raised here, first because Imperial defence throughout the whole of the United Kingdom is a matter for the Imperial Government, and.

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secondly, because all industry throughout the United Kingdom is at present very largely controlled by the Imperial Government. Since our war effort is totalitarian and the distribution of industries in Northern Ireland and elsewhere is so closely affected by the decision of His Majesty's Government, I trust that the noble Lord, whom we welcome in his present position, will be able to make a reassuring statement on the matters to which my noble friend has drawn attention.
LORD ADDISON: My Lords, I should like formally to associate myself with what the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, has said and to join him in welcoming the noble Lord opposite.
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF SUPPLY (LORD PORTAL): My Lords, in answer to my noble friend opposite, I would like to take the part of his Motion which I consider is the most important—namely, to urge His Majesty's Government to take immediate steps to alleviate the position of unemployment by the establishment of factories. The Parliamentary Secretary of the Ministry of Supply in another place—as perhaps your Lordships realise there are two Parliamentary Secretaries of the Ministry of Supply—held a conference on August 29 with a deputation of officials from the Northern Ireland Government who stressed the points raised by the noble Lord opposite in his speech. His Majesty's Government are anxious to make the maximum possible use of the man-power and resources of Northern Ireland. The whole question has been under review, and, in addition to the appointment to Northern Ireland of a representative of Gun and Carriage Production, senior members of other Production Departments of the Ministry of Supply have been despatched to Northern Ireland to discuss on the spot the possibility of increased orders being placed there.
I am glad to say that these visits are already showing definite results. I am sure the noble Lord would agree with me that the best method for taking immediate steps to alleviate unemployment is to place large orders with those firms who are able to take them. The noble Lord
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will realise that in questions of unemployment, if you want to solve them quickly, the matter of importance for the time being is to give out fresh orders rather than to build new factories which takes a long time. The noble Lord will also realise that if one wanted to help his country to reduce unemployment one is able to get that done much more quickly on the lines I have indicated than by proceeding along the line of starting right away on a long-term policy. Representatives of the Clothing and Textile Departments of the Ministry of Supply who have just returned from Northern Ireland have succeeded in reaching agreement on a scheme for making up soldier's clothing and equipment which should provide employment immediately for approximately 8,000 workers. This about doubles the work placed with the textile industry in Northern Ireland for Army supplies, and should result in a substantial easing of the unemployment problem. Moreover, by these measures continuous employment is being provided involving none of the difficulties which arise from the transference of labour.
A point which I hope your Lordships will observe is that this is a first result of these representatives going over to Ireland. The three main engineering firms in Northern Ireland are already heavily loaded with orders and two smaller firms have been given orders. With regard to those sections of the textile industry more directly affected by the supply of flax, very little relief can be hoped for in the spinning section until the supplies of flax are increased. The linen industry in Northern Ireland has acquired world-wide fame in our export markets, and it is essential that the supplies of flax should be increased, as by doing so we are helping to maintain a most important and basic industry in Northern Ireland. I am sure noble Lords will realise what the flax industry and the linen industry mean to Northern Ireland. As noble Lords probably know, the employment ratio in those sections of the textile industry which use flax is a high one. That is a point which I would like your Lordships to bear in mind when discussing this question because you will realise that it is better if you can to get people to work in the trade to which they are accustomed. It is better to get coal miners back into the mines than into any other occupation.

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We have specially in mind that the employment ratio in the flax industry is a high one and we have arranged to double the acreage under flax next year. I hope that we shall be able further to increase the acreage in other years. I am not really a farmer, nor am I really an industrialist—I am probably a cross between the two—but I have tried, with the aid of my officials, to get a figure relating the increased acreage under flax to increased employment. I think the figure of extra acreage should give an increase in employment of about 12,000 or 13,000 people. The question of growing flax in Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom should be seriously considered as part of our post-war policy. As regards weaving, arrangements have already been made for 6,000 looms to be changed over to the weaving of cotton. One would have liked to have gone into the question of munitions and shipbuilding in greater detail, but the noble Lord will understand that it is difficult to do this in open discussion. I shall be only too pleased to give the noble Lord further information if he will come and see me. In conclusion, I would like to say that His Majesty's Government have this question of unemployment in Northern Ireland very much before them, as they realise the unswerving and unstinted support they are giving in their war effort.
LORD DAVIES: My Lords, before I ask leave to withdraw my Motion, may I thank my noble friend opposite for his reply, and perhaps I may be allowed to congratulate him on the first speech he has delivered to us since he was appointed to his present important position in the Ministry of Supply. I must confess, however, that I am not entirely satisfied with all that he has said. I am sure we are all glad to know there is to be a considerable increase in orders given in Northern Ireland, but the noble Lord did not answer the question as to what extent it might be possible to adapt existing factories so that they should be able to turn out munitions and other supplies which are needed especially by the fighting services. Another point I would like to make is that the erection of factories would de-
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crease unemployment to some extent, even though it might be some time before the factories came into production. The fact that this part of the country apparently does not suffer from air raids to the same extent as other parts would suggest that it is a place where some of our war industries could be expanded. A further point I would like to put to my noble friend is that we ought to know why conscription is not being applied to Northern Ireland in the same way as to other parts of the country. Of course, I cannot expect him to answer that question, but I should be grateful if he would bring the point to the attention of his colleagues in the hope that they may be willing to reconsider the decision which I think was taken some time ago on this matter.
LORD PORTAL: My Lords, I think that perhaps I did not make it plain to my noble friend, when I was speaking about factories, that the whole question has been under review since a deputation came over from Northern Ireland at the end of August. Certain members of the Production Department who have been over to Northern Ireland are now coming back to report. The extra orders to which I referred were given the day before yesterday, and I am very thankful that they were given before I had to reply to my noble friend.
LORD DAVIES: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his reply and I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.
HORSHAM GAS ORDER, 1940.
SITTINGBOURNE DISTRICT GAS
ORDER, 1940.
Report from the Special Orders Committee, That no Petitions have been presented praying to be heard against the Special Orders, and that there is nothing in these Orders to which they think it necessary to call the attention of the House: Read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
House adjourned.