Lords Sitting of 23 May 1940

Preamble
The House met at four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

OPERATIONS IN FRANCE AND BELGIUM.
LORD SNELL: My Lords, I beg to ask His Majesty's Government whether they have any statement to make on the military operations in France and Belgium.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DOMINION AFFAIRS (VISCOUNT CALDECOTE): My Lords, the German armoured forces which made their way through the breach in the French Army have penetrated into the rear of the Allied Armies in Belgium, and are now attempting to derange their communications. Abbeville is in enemy hands and heavy lighting is proceeding around and in Boulogne. It is too early yet to say what the result of this coastal fighting may be; but it evidently carries with it implications of a serious character. Meanwhile General Weygand who is in supreme command is conducting operations involving all the Allied Armies with a view to restoring and reconstituting their combined front.

INDIA.
4.4 p.m.
LORD SNELL: My Lords, I beg to ask His Majesty's Government whether they can indicate their attitude towards the problems facing them in India.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA AND BURMA (THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE): My Lords, I am glad to have this early opportunity of explaining the attitude of the Government to the present regrettable political deadlock in India. The attainment by India of free and equal partnership in the British Commonwealth is the goal of our policy as it was that of the late Government. We recognise, as my noble friend Lord Zetland made clear in his speech of April 18, that it is for Indians themselves to play a vital part in devising the form of Constitution best adapted to India's conditions and to
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India's outlook. The promise already given that the present scheme of the Act of 1935 and the policy and plans of which it is based are to be open to re-examination at the end of the war necessarily implies discussion and negotiation, and not dictation. We have no desire to delay any of the steps that may pave the way towards an agreed settlement that will take account of the legitimate claims of all communities and interests. On the contrary we have been and are only too anxious to make our contribution towards such a settlement. The difficulty at this moment lies in the acute cleavage of opinion which has developed in India itself affecting issues fundamental to the character of her future Constitution and even to the approach to the problem.
His Majesty's Government refuse to regard that cleavage as unbridgeable. Even if no final agreement on the major issue is immediately in sight we cannot think that it is beyond the resources of Indian statesmanship to find at any rate such a provisional accommodation as would admit of the resumption of office with general consent by Ministers in the Provinces and the appointment to the Governor-General's Executive Council of representative public men on the basis already offered. We believe that such a solution of the present deadlock, provisional no doubt, but still easing the way to eventual agreement, would be eagerly welcomed by the overwhelming body of Indian public opinion. India has from the outset of the war made manifest her sympathy and support for the Allied cause and her anxiety to lend to that cause all the aid in her power. It is the sincere and earnest hope of His Majesty's Government that in the situation which faces the whole civilised world to-day existing differences may be put aside and that the leaders of the great political Parties in India will come together in agreement in support of the common effort. The Viceroy, with the approval of His Majesty's Government, has spared no effort to bring the parties together and to endeavour to find a basis for progress which would be generally acceptable. His own readiness to help in any way he can remains unabated.
4.8 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: My Lords, first I wish to express the pleasure I feel,

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and which I am sure is shared by your Lordships, that the noble Duke my noble friend opposite is carrying on the more than century-old tradition of his family in taking a still more important place than he has already occupied in the counsels of His Majesty's Government. I think your Lordships will agree that the statement to which we have listened is as satisfactory as we could venture to hope for at this moment. It has so obviously been the fear of what I may call the more extreme section of opinion in India that this country would take advantage of the critical situation brought about by the war to postpone as far as possible or modify in a reactionary sense the changes which have been generally stated, and it is agreed will have to come in regard to the Government of India. I trust that further consideration will satisfy the Congress Party and enable them to see that any anticipation of this kind is altogether without foundation. I am certain that the Viceroy has done and will continue to do his best to dissipate any delusion of that kind. Nothing could be better than a return to office of the Provincial Ministers who thought it their duty to resign. It would in no way mean that they should go back on anything they have said or done, and yet it would be an earnest of their desire to co-operate with the Government here and with all the Governments of the Empire in resisting the attacks which Germany is making upon the liberties of the world.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
4.10 p.m.
VISCOUNT CALDECOTE: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion which stands on the Paper in my name.
Moved, That Standing Order No. XXXIX be considered in order to its being suspended for this day's sitting.—(Viscount Caldecote.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

TREACHERY BILL.
4.11 p.m.
Brought from the Commons, and read 1a.
Then Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT SIMON): My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. As your Lordships have heard, the Bill has just reached us from another place and being a Bill of great urgency as well as of great importance, it was, I understand, passed through all its stages in the House of Commons yesterday. The noble Viscount, the Leader of the House, has secured the necessary suspension of the Standing Order and I must ask your Lordships to be good enough to treat the Bill in this House as a matter of extreme urgency so that it may be put upon the Statute Book with the assent of His Majesty before the day closes. As your Lordships know, the offence of treason is the greatest of all offences against the safety of the State and the law of treason is one of very great antiquity. It was part of the law of this country, undoubtedly, before any Statute about it was ever passed and under the Common Law the crime acquired very comprehensive width. In the reign of Edward III the famous Statute of Treason was passed which defined more precisely the limits of the crime, and perhaps your Lordships will allow me to remind you that under the Statute of Edward III the offence of high treason is committed if anyone should slay the Chancellor or the Treasurer in the course of discharging his duties. Subsequent Treason Acts provided special procedure and formalities, not I think very suitable for the times in which we are now living, and it was under the procedure framed in the Statute of Edward III—the Treason Act of 1351—that the last case of high treason was tried in this country twenty-four years ago, in the time of the last war.
What then is the urgency of the Treachery Bill? It is this. When, at the beginning of this war, the Emergency Powers (Defence) Bill was carried through Parliament, that Bill contained no provision enabling the death penalty to be imposed for acts done in breach of the Defence Regulations with intent to assist the enemy. The reason for that perhaps strange omission was that it was thought at the time that the most serious kind of treasonable offence for which the death penalty would be appropriate could best be left to be dealt with under the Treason Acts to which I have just referred. On reflection it has, I think, become plain

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that that was not the wisest course to take. Further consideration has shown that, if we rely upon the Treason Act—the main Act, as I have said, is an Act of great antiquity—and other Acts which establish special procedure and special formalities, we shall have a much more complicated and cumbrous procedure than may, in existing circumstances, be justified.
There is also this further point. The law of treason in this country applies, of course, to every British subject wherever that British subject is living, because every British subject owes allegiance to the King. The law of treason also applies to aliens in so far as they owe to the King local allegiance—that is to say, as long as they are resident in this country and enjoying the protection of its laws. It is a very doubtful question indeed whether under the existing law of treason you could proceed against an alien who has come here suddenly, surreptitiously by air or otherwise, for the purposes of wreaking clandestine destruction or doing other acts against the safety of the real. In as much as treason is a crime committed by someone who owes allegiance, it might be well argued that such a person does not owe allegiance to the British Crown. For these reasons it is urgently necessary that this Bill should be passed.
Clause 1 of the Bill, to which I would direct the special attention of your Lordships, provides that
"If, with intent to help the enemy, any person does, or attempts or conspires with any other person to do, any act which is designed or likely to give assistance to the naval, military or air operations of the enemy, to impede such operations of His Majesty's Forces, or to endanger life, he shall be guilty of felony and shall on conviction suffer death."
That is the main clause of the Bill. There are one or two other provisions which I must ask your Lordships to observe.
In the first place, in Clause 2 provision is made which will greatly simplify the procedure. As I have said, if we rely on the old Treason Acts a special and elaborate procedure is required which I can assure your Lordships is really not required in the interests of justice or fair play. It is a relic from extremely ancient times, taking us right back to the fourteenth century. We therefore wish to provide a simple procedure which ordinarily operates on trial by indictment, and
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there is a further provision in Clause 2 (1) (b), at the top of page 2 of the printed Bill, that—
"any enemy alien may, if the Attorney-General so directs, be prosecuted for an offence against this Act before a Court Martial."
Your Lordships will observe that that provision is limited—and I think rightly limited—to enemy aliens. Of course, if anyone who is subject to British military law commits an offence of any character, whether less grave than that of treason itself, the fact will expose him to punishment and trial by Court Martial, but this provision is required in order that any enemy alien may be so dealt with if the Attorney-General so directs. In subsection (1) (c) of the same clause, there is a provision to which I would also call your Lordships' attention, that if a person who is convicted under this Bill and sentenced to death by the ordinary procedure of indictment is a member of the armed forces of the Crown, or of the armed forces of any foreign Power, then the Secretary of State may direct that he may be dealt with in the like manner as a person whose execution takes place by shooting if he has been tried by Court Martial. If an individual is convicted under this Bill by ordinary indictment although he is a soldier and entitled to be treated as a soldier, in a proper case the Secretary of State might direct that his execution should be by shooting instead of by hanging. Lastly, fresh legislation is needed because it is thought necessary to make quite clear that enemy aliens can be tried by Court Martial even though they are not subject to the Naval Discipline Act, to military law or to the Air Force Act, and they can be dealt with summarily by that means.
I have only one other observation to make. Some of your Lordships may feel, when you examine the terms of this Bill, that even now we have not provided a procedure which is sufficiently summary in view of the most grave situation in which we stand. I would therefore wish to point out that this Bill will provide adequate procedure as long as—and I trust it may always be so—the ordinary administration of the law of the land, Common Law and Statute, can be carried out. If, indeed, we had to deal with a situation in which there were some descent in a corner of this country, an attempted invasion in some part of the Kingdom,

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then I do not say that this Bill would contain the whole of the necessary measures. The well-known proposition Inter arma silent leges has this application and meaning, and if a situation ever arose in any corner of the Kingdom where the ordinary law of the land as Parliament lays it down could not be administered, then there is unquestionable authority in those who are responsible for maintaining the public safety to take, if necessary, very summary measures. Your Lordships will not wish me, I think, to detain you longer. I hope I have satisfied you that this Bill is not only of great importance in view of the situation, but of great gravity, and that the time has come when the whole House will concur in this strengthening of the law relating to these offences which expose us to such dreadful peril.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
4.24 p.m.
LORD ADDISON: My Lords, I should like to ask the noble and learned Viscount one or two questions—not in the least with any desire to criticise the Bill, for we all share his anxiety that it shall become law. He might, however, give us some light upon one important question. In Clause 2 (2), at the bottom of page 2, it is provided that a person may be arrested notwithstanding that the consent of the Attorney-General has not been obtained. I know of a recent case where an officer was arrested and held in solitary confinement for five weeks, and then was tried by Court Martial and found innocent of the charges on which he had been arrested. I am sure that none of us wants that to happen. I would ask the noble and learned Viscount whether there is any limit to the time during which a person may be held in custody before the consent of the Attorney-General is obtained. As far as this clause goes, a person might be held in custody for months.
One other point is that paragraph (b), which the noble and learned Viscount has explained is limited to enemy aliens. If the horrible treachery of which we read in other countries were imitated here, it might not be limited to enemy aliens but might be committed by aliens of other nationalities. I wonder whether the definition of "enemy alien" on page 4
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would include, for example, an Austrian or a Czech. I cannot see why, in the grave condition of the country and considering the perils to which we may be exposed by this kind of action, it is necessary to put in the word "enemy."
A formal point which affects your Lordships—though I am sure it is unimaginable that any of us should be subject to it—is this. I understand that if a member of this House is charged with felony, he is tried by his Peers. Will the noble Viscount tell us whether this right of a member of this House is in any way affected by this Bill? There was a case, I believe, a few years ago in which a noble Lord was charged with felony——
LORD STRABOLGI: Manslaughter.
LORD ADDISON: And was tried by this House. I do not regard it as of any consequence, but it would be interesting to know.
LORD JESSEL: My Lords, might I ask a question on Clause 1, page 1, which says "or to endanger life" What exactly does that mean?
4.27 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I will do my best to reply to the questions addressed to me by the two noble Lords. In regard to the question just put by my noble friend: I should suppose that, beyond question, "life" meant human life. The clause refers to acts of sabotage of a dangerous kind which perhaps could not be proved to be "designed or likely to give assistance to the naval, military or air operations of the enemy" or to impede our own operations, but are none the less done with intent to help the enemy—for instance, by blowing up a building, blocking a road or something of that kind. Of course it would be only in such instances that the clause would apply, and that is undoubtedly what it is intended to express.
Dealing with the two questions put by the noble Lord on the Bench opposite, I think that if for the moment I might ask his attention to the first words of Clause 1, he will see that one of the two questions he asked is thus by inference dealt with. This Bill is not limited to punishing treachery perpetrated by enemy aliens—not at all. It covers every case of treachery if with intent to help the enemy any person attempts it.
LORD ADDISON: If I might interrupt the noble and learned Viscount: the point of Clause 2 (2) as I understand it is that such persons should be tried by Court Martial, and I was asking why the paragraph mentions, enemy aliens.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I think the reason is that a Court Martial in this country would of course normally be applied to our own citizens who are under military law—soldiers, sailors and airmen. That is the natural ambit and jurisdiction of the Court Martial. It is right, in a case where you are at war with another country, that you should deal with the enemy alien with the same swiftness and by the same procedure. As your Lordships know, in the last war there were, if I remember aright, something like ten cases where persons who were enemy aliens were convicted by Court Martial and in due course were shot. If, however, you attempt to apply the procedure of Court Martial to aliens who are not enemy aliens, you will see at once how very difficult it is to draw the line. Unquestionably we can all think of countries friendly to us, great communities who have inherited the British law, who would feel it a very gross infliction that because one of their citizens was suspected he should not be tried in the ordinary course of law but should be forced to go before a Court Martial. It is for this reason that it is enemy aliens who may be brought before Courts Martial.
The other question put by the noble Lord had to do with the proviso at the end of Clause 2, subsection (2). He asked whether there was not a danger that an individual might be arrested or detained in custody and then that a considerable time would elapse before he was brought to trial. The House will appreciate, of course, the purpose of this subsection. In order that frivolous or ill-founded prosecutions should not be instituted under this very grave Bill, there is a provision that there shall be no prosecution, apart from Court Martial proceedings, unless the Attorney-General authorises it. It is important, however, to secure that if a man is suspected it shall not be necessary to wait until the Attorney-General has given permission before he can be arrested. It must therefore be provided that although he cannot be prosecuted until the Attorney-General gives his assent, his arrest, or the execution of the warrant for his arrest, may
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take place beforehand. I agree most warmly with the noble Lord when he expresses his concern that there should not be any improper delay. I feel quite certain that the Attorney-General and the authorities will concur in that view; and indeed in the circumstances in which we stand there is no reason why there should be delay, because, of course, there is power in the Home Secretary to intern persons who are suspected, without making an allegation against them. If they are to be brought to trial, undoubtedly they ought to be brought to trial with reasonable promptitude. I hope that that will satisfy the noble Lord.
LORD STRABOLGI: Would my noble and learned friend permit me to repeat the question put by my noble friend Lord Addison, as to the position of Peers—and, I may add, Peers in all parts of the House?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I was interested to hear that question raised, although I appreciate that it has been raised in the purely theoretic sense! I do not think that there is anything in this Bill which impinges on the undoubted rights and privileges of the members of your Lordships' House. If the matter became a more serious one, perhaps some more expeditious method might be devised; but as far as this Bill is concerned, I think your Lordships may be assured that your ancient privileges have-in no way been invaded.
On Question, Bill read 2a; Committee negatived.
Bill read 3a, and passed.

NATIONAL SERVICE (ARMED FORCES) BILL.
4.35 p.m.
Brought from the Commons, and read 1a.
Then, Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended:
LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. The Bill is a matter of urgency, in the same way as the Bill which has just been moved by my noble and learned friend on the Woolsack; but I think that, before I come to the Bill, your Lordships might like me to say a few words about the formation of the Local Defence Volunteer organisation, its duties

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and so on. The decision to form this organisation was made on the 12th of this month. The idea originated from a desire to help to resist this very formidable new force which the enemy is employing by the dropping of people called "parachutists" in the country and in towns, where they are evidently creating, to say the least of it, a very great nuisance behind our lines in France, just as they did in Norway. On the 14th of the month, two days later, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for War made a broadcast and denned the nature of the parachute menace, and explained why it was considered necessary to supplement existing measures of defence by the formation of a volunteer organisation which would secure the rapid intervention of an armed force no matter where the parachutists should land.
In this respect, as my right honourable friend pointed out, he was calling on a hitherto untapped source of defence, and the result of his appeal has really been very wonderful indeed. By May 20, over a quarter of a million volunteers had come forward, and in many districts units have already been formed and rifles and ammunition have been issued. The response has been a very remarkable one all over the country, and I should like to quota as an instance, if your Lordships will allow me to do so, the case of the small country town which I know best, and which has a population of from three to four thousand inhabitants. Within forty-eight hours of the Secretary of State's appeal, 150 men of all classes had registered at the police station, and I am sure that by this time their number has about trebled. A distinguished Brigadier-General whom I know very well, aged 73, has registered his name, giving his age as 61, and a distinguished Major-General, bearing a very distinguished name indeed, and who served in the late war, aged 78, has given his age as 64 and has also enrolled. I hope that both those gallant officers will be accepted, because I am quite sure that they will do exceedingly well. Those examples are typical of what is going on all over the country.
I should like to say a word as to the organisation and the way it is working. The Local Defence Volunteer organisation is based on the existing military areas, each of which is divided into a
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number of zones. Each zone in its turn is subdivided into groups, further subdivisions being into companies, platoons and sections. At the head of each zone and group is a volunteer organiser. The Commanders of the military areas, after consultation with the Lords-Lieutenant of the counties, have appointed voluntary area organisers, who in turn have appointed the zone organisers and through them the organisers for the groups. All members of the Force, both organisers and volunteers, give their services free, but at the same time it has been decided that certain out-of-pocket expenses should be admissible. For instance, free petrol or third-class railway fares are to be allowed for official journeys by area, zone, and group organisers. Office expenditure up to £10 for postage, stationery and such matters is allowed for zone organisers. But what is perhaps of the greatest importance is that compensation for disabilities attributable to service is permissible on the same scale as for private soldiers. As regards uniform, the uniform which His Majesty's Government propose will consist of overalls and field service caps, or civilian clothes with khaki armbands stitched to the sleeve, with the letters "L.V.D." stencilled on the armbands in white. Volunteers wearing civilian clothes with armbands will be issued with field service caps. Up to date, 98,000 overalls have been issued, 250,000 service dress caps are available, and a similar number of armbands is on order. The operational control, organisation and training of the Local Defence Volunteers are all under the orders of the Commander-in-Chief of the Home Forces.
These are the lines on which the organisation is being built up, and I am sure your Lordships will appreciate the debt which the country owes to the voluntary organisers and those who have enrolled in the Local Defence Volunteers. Our trouble has been to meet the almost overwhelming response and absorb the vast number of applicants into the newly formed organisation. I should like to say before I conclude, that this Force has been raised for three main purposes: first of all, for the purpose of observation and information; secondly, to keep these enemy parties, if and when they land in any part of the country, from free movement by blocking roads and so forth, which can be so easily done by

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countrymen who know the way about the lanes and villages of our countryside; and, thirdly, to assist in patrolling vulnerable spots, which cannot, anyhow at the moment, be looked after by either the Regular Army or by the defence battalions at home.
Now I come to the Bill, which has one operative clause. The Bill ensures that there will be no question of reducing the strength of the classes that come under the National Service Act owing to the fact that some members of these classes may have enlisted in the Local Defence Volunteers, and it enables such men to serve as part-time Volunteers until their calling-up time comes. This is secured by Clause 1, Clause 2 being merely the Short Title and so forth. I think I have said all I can usefully say with regard to this Bill. If any of your Lordships have any questions to put, I shall be very ready to do my best to answer them. In the meantime I hope that your Lordships will consider this Bill, as do the Government, as a matter of extreme urgency, and allow us to get it through all its stages at the present time. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Templemore.)
4.44 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I only want to put a question to my noble friend. I am sure your Lordships are very much obliged to him for the clear way in which he has described this Force and shown how urgent it is. I know from my own private knowledge that the response of which he speaks has been very satisfactory and I have no doubt that in many counties, as in my own county, the organisation has already proceeded very far indeed, and shows every sign of being successful. But I wonder whether that is the case all over the country. I do not expect my noble friend to be able to tell us that, but I do hope he will tell us that precautions will be taken that there should be some form of inspection from the War Office to see that counties which happen to be less forward than they should be are brought up to the point. I do not think there will be the slightest reluctance among the population. The number of recruits will be found everywhere, but it is the organisation which may hang fire unless there is proper inspection. I
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venture to put that question to my noble friend.
4.45 P.m.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, my noble friend Lord Snell has asked me to speak on this Bill for the Labour Party. First of all, I desire to thank my noble friend opposite, Lord Templemore, for his lucid explanation. This is another overdue Bill. It should, of course, have been thought of as soon as we knew what the Germans were doing in Norway, which was a month ago, and they also used this method of parachute landings in Poland at the very beginning of the present war. However, this is no time for recriminations. The new Government, at any rate, are making up for lost time, and I welcome it very much. In one part of the country that I know, where the response has been just as good, I am sure, as in the noble Marquess's county, this new Force is called the Reception Committee. They look upon themselves as being the people who give the first reception in England, and a very warm reception indeed, to anyone from the enemy forces who tries to land here with hostile intent. I venture to accept the invitation of my noble friend opposite and to ask some questions, for however urgent this Bill is, there are certain vital matters which must be properly handled, as the noble Marquess has already shown, if this Force is to be a success, and there is no time to lose.
There is one very important matter that I feel bound to bring to your Lordships' attention, and I hope any members of the Government present here will see that this is conveyed to the proper quarter. It is most essential that all our seaports should be watched. To put it figuratively, one may be looking up into the skies and the same sort of thing which happened in Copenhagen, Bergen and elsewhere, may occur in our own ports; apparently innocent vessels under neutral flags—as was the case at Trondheim under the American flag—may come in filled up with hidden German soldiers. The ordinary inspection service should be adjusted accordingly, because the ordinary inspection service at the ports of ships coming in is not devised to deal with this particular menace. I dare say the Admiralty are aware of this. I have done my best to bring it to their notice through such channels as are open

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to me. I have had certain representations already from the seaports as to the need of tightening up the system of inspection of all vessels entering.
I think also you must not overlook the services of the old sailors of the Royal Navy and the Mercantile Marine. Every man in the Royal Navy is taught to use a rifle the moment he is enrolled, and is kept up-to-date in the use of the rifle, and of the machine-gun too. A great many men of the Mercantile Marine also are accustomed to using rifles, and they are very fine material if you can organise them. I have made the suggestion already that you should appeal to their particular sense of prestige, which all seafaring men feel. You might put an anchor on their armlet and call them the Marine Section; you will get splendid service. You will need these men on the coasts, just as much as men will be needed in the country districts. I put that suggestion to the Secretary of State and he has been kind enough to write in a sympathetic way. I am not expecting miracles, but I hope the War Office will not overlook the thousands of suitable men of seafaring experience who are too old to go to sea or, for one reason or another, are in other occupations, and who will be only too glad to join this Force.
My noble friend mentioned an organisation for blocking the roads. That does not only concern motor vehicles. The Germans landed aeroplanes on wide highways in Holland. It may be necessary to block highways against aeroplanes. That is a different problem from blocking roads against motor vehicles. You can block a road against aeroplanes in such a way that motor vehicles can use it. Also you must have organisation beforehand. I am sure this cannot have been overlooked but so many things have been overlooked in the past. I trust the present Government, but we intend to keep an eye on it. There must be provision for blocking possible landing places. The most important landing place, from our point of view, in Norway near Narvik was denied to the Germans by the initiative of the local Norwegian commander who covered the landing ground with logs, and when we were ready to use it the logs were removed and that saved the situation up there. All this needs careful organisation. I am slightly alarmed when the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, talks about
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War Office inspection. The idea of retired Major-Generals such as the noble Lord, Lord Templemore, described, being put in charge of this organisation, fills me with some apprehension.
LORD TEMPLEMORE: Really I cannot let that go. These distinguished general officers about whom I spoke, and others, have enlisted intending to be private soldiers, as I have done myself.
LORD STRABOLGI: I share my noble friend's admiration to the full. No one has more admiration than I have for retired field officers, especially those who have served all their time in India, or are veterans of the South African War and other campaigns, but this is a new force to meet new conditions. Leave it as much as possible to the local people. Tell them to go about it in their own way, and their natural leaders will arise. With regard to weapons, there are two problems. The first is the provision of arms. Two hundred and fifty thousand men are not enough. That, of course, the Government recognise. You need at least one million for this service. You will get them; they are there. You will need a good deal of armament for them. In the first place you can only give them ordinary small arms—I shall come to the question of other arms in a moment. Are you mobilising all the available rifles in the country? I do not mean military rifles, I mean sporting rifles. This is a makeshift force to start with, but it will be a magnificent addition to the defences of the country. In the meantime you must give them arms at once. Never mind if they do not all use the same ammunition. A shepherd with a Mannlicher rifle is of much more use than a shepherd with no rifle at all. Shot guns also you must mobilise. I do not know how many shot guns there are in the country, but the number must be enormous. Nearly everyone in the country districts has a shot gun, and a shot gun with a proper charge is a formidable weapon. Later, of course, and as soon as possible, as these men are organised better and trained, you have got to give them sub-machine guns and hand grenades. Parachutists land very heavily armed, and though you can ambush them with the weapons available, you must give your defence corps—your reception committee—hand grenades and submachine guns, and teach them to use them.

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I come to the vexed question of whether these arms should be issued or kept at central depots. In my district, I am informed, I can keep my own rifle, and I propose to do so. The intention is to let us keep our own rifles in our own homes. I hope that will be made general. The idea of telephoning a warning that parachutists have landed, and that one must go to the depot to collect one's arms, is realty grotesque. You have got to issue arms to people to keep in their own homes, because what we have got to avoid is that these miscreants should land and take possession of buildings, dig themselves in, and make themselves strong points on farms. If every man is his own garrison, in his own home, it will be more difficult for the parachutists. The Swiss soldier keeps his own rifle and ammunition in his own home. When the English bowmen were the terror of Europe every yeoman had his own weapons and harness in his own home. You must come back to the same state of organisation. In Greece to-day every shepherd carries his own rifle on the hills. Every shepherd in Scotland must carry his own rifle. The idea that he should go to Inverness or Perth and draw it when the trouble comes is—forgive my saying so—typical of the War Office.
I have not heard of any organisation for women in this connection. I do not mean as combatants; but women can perform useful service as messengers, telephonists, drivers and so on. They should be encouraged and a great many women who have not been able to join the various uniformed corps would be available. The Dutch women gave a lot of trouble to the parachutists by dropping furniture on their heads and I am sure Scottish and English women would give a good account of themselves. There are all kinds of auxiliary duties they can perform. I hope also we are going to organise, as soon as possible, all available cars or motor vehicles in each district. This is a parochial organisation which you need so that when a landing or air invasion takes place you can mobilise vehicles and collect men and deal with the trouble at once.
Here is another matter I submit to your Lordships which is very important indeed. One of the troubles at the present moment in France and Belgium is the stream of refugees blocking the roads,
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flying from the terror of the enemy. If we have any trouble of that kind in this country we want to avoid that at all costs. These refugees only form a target to be bombed or machine gunned from the air by these criminals. The people must stay in their own homes, lock and barricade themselves in. Because there has been a landing of a thousand parachutists in Essex say, followed by thirty or forty troop-carrying planes, the whole of Essex should not be panic stricken and evacuated. That is the problem. We should immediately tell people to stay where they are. The more you have enrolled in this Defence Corps and the more arms which are issued the better. A man with a weapon in his hand is a different proposition from one who has no weapon and that in itself will help to steady the population. One of the most important functions of this Corps will be to steady the population, to tell them to stay in their own homes and not to block the roads and play the enemy's game by panicking and running away.
Now I come to another question. I am sorry I have not given my noble friend notice, but I dare say he will be able to let me know later. Is the wonderful organisation of the City of London being used at the present time? The authoritative people I have talked to mostly talk about country squires and game keepers—very important people, I agree—but in the City of London you have a marvellous organisation for raising volunteers—a hereditary organisation dating from the days of the trained bands. The noble Marquess will remember the great services of the City of London in the last war and in the South African War in the matter of raising bodies of men. You have a machinery for this purpose in the City of London. It raised National Guards in the last war and in this war it raised the Pioneer Corps. Is this being all departmentalised in the War Office? If you are not taking advantage of this organisation you are losing something that can be very valuable indeed. I also must put in a plea for greater use being made of the machinery of the British Legion, the Old Contemptibles, the Old Comrades and other bodies of that kind. I do not wish to put the new corps under the control of the British Legion, but if you can use the British Legion you have a guarantee that you will only get men of good

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character. You do not want to arm your potential Fifth Column. The Legion and similar bodies will deal with dangerous characters who cannot be trusted with arms.
The other suggestion I feel compelled to make is this. You have a great opportunity here to mobilise and use the youth of the country between the ages of sixteen and nineteen who at present are in many cases either idle or only half used. I hope Lord Elibank is not too shocked by what I am saying. Boys between this age of sixteen and nineteen for this purpose can be very useful indeed. They are too young to go into the Army. I do not know that they will be as useful in my noble friend's town as the old gentlemen, but at any rate they will be of value. In case Lord Elibank is really shocked, I may tell him that I was taught and drilled to use a rifle as a midshipman when I was sixteen and was expected to make use of it if required? The Germans are using young lads of this kind. We have these organisations, such as the Rovers, to which reference has been made as a nucleus to build upon. I assure my noble friend Lord Elibank that boys of sixteen to nineteen can be used with great advantage. I have attempted to make suggestions in a helpful way. Our Party only want to help this Force and assist it in every way we can. It is most urgently required. I congratulate my noble friend on bringing this Bill in now. I only wish to add for my Party that we will facilitate its passage and give it all the help we can—and we have influence with our members in the industrial districts—so as to make the new body a success.
5.2 p.m.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, I rise only to ask a question, but first of all I should like to tell the noble Marquess that as far as my part of the country is concerned—that is from Edinburgh southward—we are very far advanced in the work of organisation and enlistment. Perhaps he may be comforted to know that. I should like to refer to what the noble Lord said just now. I did not raise my eyebrows at the idea that these boys of sixteen to nineteen should be utilised in connection with this defence. I think the noble Lord said he first used a rifle at sixteen. I can claim to have used one at thirteen.
LORD STRABOLGI: I first used a rabbit rifle when I was ten, but I was enrolled as a midshipman and trained to take part with a rifle at the age of sixteen when required to do so.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: I did not expect to be able to compete with the noble Lord. What I really raised my eyebrows at was the suggestion that these boys were not being utilised. I am sure, certainly in the countryside, that boys of fifteen and upwards are being sought for in every direction in order to undertake agricultural work. If the noble Lord can find a boy for me at the present moment for my garden, I shall be very pleased to employ him at once and pay a very good wage. The question that I wish to ask the noble Lord is this. As I understand it this Force is said to be a military force under military organisation. There is nothing to indicate whether this Force will be under military law. I ask that question because there is considerable doubt in the part of the country that I know among our area commanders as to whether this Force is under military law or not, and I venture to suggest that it is very important, if it is not under military law, that it should be placed under military law. I do not see how you can have an organised body of this kind armed with rifles unless it comes under military law. If the noble Lord is not able to answer that question now I hope he will look into it and make it clear in the minds of everyone who has anything to do with this matter or is organising it.
5.4 p.m.
LORD DARYNGTON: My Lords, I want to ask one simple question. I do not know whether the Government have made full provision for the rifles that are required, and I would ask my noble friend whether it would not be possible to let it be known, if arms are required, that they should be sent to a certain district or place. I am sure there are at the present time in this country a very large number of rifles to which no one pays any attention at all, and which might be of very great value if it was widely known that they were really required. If a request was made for them I am sure there would be a ready response.
5.5 p.m.
LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, I am pleased your Lordships have given such a good reception to this Bill. I will

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reply to some of the questions that have been put to me. First of all a very important question was raised by my noble friend below the Gangway, Lord Salisbury, who asked whether recruiting for the Force had been uniformly good in all parts of the country. I am not able to answer that at the moment. But he also raised a question about inspection, and as to that I consider as an old soldier, as he is himself, that if you are to have any kind of military force at all it must be a proper one and therefore you must have some form of inspection sooner or later. The Force is under the Commander-in-Chief of the Home Forces, Sir Walter Kirke, and I have little doubt that very shortly he will arrange for the inspection of the units in different parts of the country. I am quite sure when this inspection takes place that it will not be made, as my noble friend opposite rather suggested, by these old gentlemen, but will be made by the properly trained officers belonging to the staff of the General Officer Commanding the Home Forces.
My noble friend Lord Strabolgi put various questions and made a number of suggestions. First, as regards watching the seaports for ships with false flags, I am sure that that is very much in the mind of His Majesty's Government and will not be lost sight of. The noble Lord also raised the question of not refusing the services of old sailors for this Force. I am quite convinced that they will not be refused. I think I am right in saying that in the southern counties of England—certainly it is so in the county that I know best—an old sailor is almost a more common object than an old soldier, and I have little doubt that many hundreds and possibly thousands of old sailors are already enrolled in this body. I am quite certain that they will be most useful. As to the matter of blocking roads not only against vehicles but against aircraft, I will have that matter brought to the notice of the proper authorities.
My noble friend asked whether sporting rifles and guns were to be used. Reading the debate which took place yesterday I gather that they will be permitted to be used if people possess them. As to whether rifles are to be issued to the men or stored in depots, I am afraid I cannot answer that question offhand, but I will inquire and let my noble friend
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know privately, if he will allow me to do so. I have noted what he said about the employment of women. As to the organisation of the City of London for this important work, my noble friend Lord Lucan, who is Chairman of the Territorial Association for the City of London and knows a lot about it, informs me that not only in the City of London but in the County of London also the various organisations are being utilised under the able direction of Major-General Sir Cecil Pereira who was known very well indeed as the commander many years ago of one of the London Territorial Divisions.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: At the present moment he is Chairman of the County Association.
LORD TEMPLEMORE: I am much obliged to my noble friend. I understand that he has been appointed to look after the whole of London.
LORD STRABOLGI: May I be allowed to put this matter right? Sir Cecil Pereira is doing very valuable work on the outskirts of London—in Greater London—but in the City of London the organisation, as far as I can gather, is not being utilised.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: Perhaps I might explain that it is the London Command of which Sir Cecil Pereira has been appointed organiser. The London Command includes part of five or six-other counties besides the County of London.
LORD TEMPLEMORE: The noble Lord raised a question about the relationship of the British Legion to this Force. I gather that it was never the intention of the War Office that the Force should be in any way run by the organisation of the British Legion, but I have little doubt that members of the British Legion will be consulted about various matters. I should think they will all join, and their experience and their advice will be extremely useful. The noble Viscount, Lord Elibank, asked whether this Force was to be subject to military law. I have had only a short time to find out, but I understand that that is so. My noble friend Lord Daryington asked a question about rifles and made an exceedingly useful suggestion which I will see is brought to the notice of those in authority. I

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have answered to the best of my ability the questions which have been raised, and I hope that your Lordships are now ready to come to a decision.
On Question, Bill read 2a; Committee negatived.
Bill read 3a, and passed.

THE FIFTH COLUMN.
5.12 p.m.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK VISCOUNT ELIBANK had given Notice that he would draw the attention of His Majesty's Government to the serious results which have accrued from the Fifth Column activities by Nazi Germany in certain countries and to the inadequacy of the steps that are being taken in this country to control the large number of aliens, both male and female, who might be utilised by Nazi Germany for similar nefarious services; and move for Papers.
The noble Viscount said: My Lords, if I had had any hesitation in putting down this Motion on the Paper, the grave dangers of which we were informed by the noble Viscount, the Leader of the House, at the beginning of our proceedings this afternoon, would certainly confirm the action I took in setting it down. This is a Motion which will in no way assist the enemy. In any part of the debate there can be no assistance to the enemy because the whole aim and object of it is to make such arrangements as to prevent information going to the enemy and to prevent help being given to those engaged in this new form of warfare, the parachutists, should they unfortunately descend in this country. We are face to face with a ruthless and unscrupulous enemy who has been training and getting ready for at least the past five years for the great war in which we are now engaged. He has prepared arms, equipment and men and he has also devised a devilish new form of warfare which is commonly called the Fifth Column. It is about this especially that I would like to speak to your Lordships to-day.
Fifth Columnist activities are generally divided into five. First of all, the Nazi Germans make use of the Germans resident in the country which they are attacking; secondly, they introduce German nationals into that country;
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thirdly, they make use of other aliens who are resident in that country; fourthly, they get into touch, through some form of cajolery or bribery or whatever it may be, with nationals of the country at which they are aiming and induce them to side with them and do things for them which make them traitors to their own country; and fifthly, they have added to this form of warfare the parachutists who are helped by those other four groups which I have described to your Lordships. I do not want to spend much time on this part of my Motion, but it is necessary to refer to the fact that this form of warfare was used first of all in Austria, where a gentleman named Seiss-Inquart helped the Nazis to subjugate his country. In Czecho-Slovakia the Sudeten Germans, through their leader, did the same thing. In Poland, the German minorities helped the Nazis to run through their country in about a fortnight—indeed, as Herr Hitler said, to smash it in a fortnight—and in Danzig and Memel they used the same means.
Then, when the war had been proceeding for some time, the Nazis decided to attack Norway and there they found a gentleman who will be renowned in history for all time as one of the lowest of the low, one of the traitors of the world, Mr. Quisling, and Mr. Quisling's name will go down in future as a name of calumny against whomsoever it may be used. In a very short time they had taken possession of half Norway, and so far as one can see, are likely to remain there for the rest of the war. At the same moment they entered Denmark and made use of the Fifth Column to effect a subjugation which took only a few hours. Then came the turn of Holland and Belgium, and only a few days ago the Dutch Foreign Minister stated in London that the Fifth Columnists who supported the parachutists who landed in Holland consisted largely of Germans resident in the country and of Germans who, in the last ten or twenty years, had been naturalised in the Netherlands. They helped in the rape of that country. I do not believe you can trust one single German to-day. Even as regards France, we were told only a few days ago by the Prime Minister, M. Reynaud, that there had been mistakes—we will put it at that—which had enabled the Germans to pour over bridges which had not been blown up and

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advance sixty mils into France. There must have been some form of foul play there.
That is the situation which we find in the countries which have been attacked and overrun by Nazi Germany up to date. We cannot say that this is not going to happen in this country. We know that the Germans have got very near to this country, and consequently we should have made all the preparations we could, seeing this going on, to be ready for any similar experiences here. What have we done in this country? I am going to show that what has been accomplished has been done, apparently, with very great reluctance, and only after tremendous pressure has been brought to bear. This is not a time when one can speak in dulcet tones; this is not a time when friendships or old associations must stand in the way. This is a time when we are up against it. Never have we bee a so much up against it as we are at the present time. I venture to assert again that the preparations which are being taken have been taken only with the greatest reluctance and only under the greatest pressure, and I will show you how this has happened.
At the commencement of the war we were told authoritatively that there were 60,000 Germans and Austrians, apart from other persons of foreign nationality, in this country. A very natural step was taken: special tribunals were set up to examine these cases and a comparatively small number of them were interned. Very large numbers were left out without restriction of residence or area. Two or three months elapsed, and then it became known that information was reaching the enemy from this country. A public agitation grew up for stronger action. An unprecedented thing occurred: the Navy found that its operations were being hampered by information conveyed to the enemy from inside this country, and that they were losing ships and lives. This information was especially coming from the shipping ports and their surrounding areas. A naval spokesman demanded that stronger steps should be taken to do away with these occurrences. Of course, after this pressure the Home Office reluctantly consented to set up special tribunals to revise the cases of those who had been kept out. Even that was felt insufficient by the public. The public felt that the Home Secretary ought to take
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action himself and to decide these matters on his own initiative and responsibility.
Consequently a public agitation arose in the House of Commons, and only after that an Order was issued—that was only three weeks ago—under which all male enemy aliens over the age of sixteen and under the age of sixty, excluding the invalid and infirm, in certain eastern counties of England and Scotland, mark you, my Lords, were to be interned. Further, certain other male aliens of the same ages of whatever nationality, if living in the same areas, were also to be placed under certain restrictions as to reporting themselves to the police and so on. The number of aliens affected by this Order was 3,000 out of 60,000. In addition, 11,000 non-enemy aliens were dealt with under this Order—out of how many I cannot say. Even that was not deemed sufficient, because there was another unprecedented occurrence: the military authorities asked for stronger action to be taken. Last week a further Order was issued, interning in any part of the country all male Germans and Austrians over sixteen and under sixty who were in the B classification—that is, evidently doubtful cases. That involved another 3,000 male enemy cases, of which 2,000 are refugees. Consequently, out of 60,000 there are now 6,000 interned.
That is the story as it stands. I am going to ask the noble Duke who is going to reply to this debate certain questions, and in asking him certain questions I am going to deal with further matters which come within the scope of those questions. I want to ask him first of all why men of sixty and over have been excluded from these Orders. I can conceive that when a number of members of His Majesty's Government read or were told of this Order in the Cabinet, they may have rather resented the implication conveyed in it! It has certainly been resented by a great many people all over the country, and by a great many men of sixty and over who still feel themselves physically and mentally able to do injury to the enemy if they were placed in the same position as these men who are left unhampered in their ways. I wonder what Marshal Pétain would say, who has joined the French Cabinet again at the age of eighty-four, or General Weygand, who has just become head of the French Army at seventy-two. In my own County the County Clerk is very incensed, as he has

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reached the age of eighty-five and is still doing nine hours' work a day and fishing in his leisure hours. That, surely, is all wrong and ought to be altered as soon as possible.
And why is there a minimum age of sixteen? The noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, has just told us how physically able and fit he was at the age of sixteen to shoot a rifle and take part in the defence of his country. Why is it right that these young people of the age of sixteen and under should be allowed to go free in this country as if they were quite incapable of doing any harm at all? Again, why are only male aliens interned? Are there no female aliens who could do harm? Is it not well known that some of the greatest and most famous spies in the world were of the female sex? Is it not also well known that very often one female spy is better than ten men, or at least equal to ten men? Surely this is an omission which ought to be put right as soon as possible. To-day this country is ridden by domestic servants of alien origin; they are serving in houses all over the country, and many of them are not trustworthy. I suggest to the noble Lord that he should examine that side of the question as well.
Then, why take only the east coast of England and Scotland? Why not the whole country? Enemy parachutists are not going to be bound by the Home Office Regulations; in fact, they are more likely to go where the Home Office Regulations expect them not to go. Is it less likely that they will descend upon Birmingham, Liverpool or Glasgow than, say, upon Newcastle or Edinburgh? Why is it thought that they will descend only on the east coast? I venture to suggest that it is more likely that they will go to the other side of England, where there is greater wealth and greater opportunity.
I can assure your Lordships that there is a demand in every part of the country for action in regard to enemy aliens, both male and female, and that representations are being sent every day to the Home Office, representations with real knowledge behind them but which are set aside or dealt with by a polite, evasive answer. I have here a very interesting case of that nature, and I am authorised to say exactly who is concerned. I am authorised by the Chief Constable of
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Oxford to say that he is very disquieted by the situation there. There are, I understand, some 477 enemy aliens in Oxford. He has made representations to the Home Secretary as to the unsatisfactory position, but no further steps have been taken. That is a case which cannot be overlooked, and there are other cases all over the country of the same kind. Let us consider what has happened in neutral countries. We are allowing these people, who are grave potential sources of danger in this country, to go at large, and we are doing nothing about it.
Then I should like to know something about non-enemy aliens, both male and female. There has been a recent order about some of them, but there are far more of these people all over the country than have actually been interned. I know very well that many of them are very favourably disposed towards us, but I do know that there are certain people, such as some Italian ice-cream vendors, who are not favourably disposed towards us. I have in mind the case of one in my own county. Very definite evidence came before me with regard to this man, and at my instigation he has been "put out of bounds" so far as troops are concerned. That, however, is all that has been done. I have written to the Chief Constable of the county and I find that he knows all about it, but there is nothing that he can do.
There is a centre in this town called the Austrian Centre. It has been known for several months that that Centre is full of Communists and contains a great many Nazi sympathisers, but nothing is being done about that. Nazi sympathisers and foreign Communists are very much on a par to-day, and if we will not have Austrian Nazi sympathisers in the country we ought not to have Austrian Communists. There are individuals of many other nationalities in this country who have Nazi sympathies. Their cases ought to be reviewed again, and as quickly as possible.
Now I will come to another point. I want to refer to the broadcasting institutions in this country. One of the first institutions which the Nazis sieze when they invade a country is the broadcasting centre, and for obvious reasons. It enables them to give wrong directions to people, to spread false rumours in their own favour and detrimental to local defence and morale.
5.38 p.m.
THE EAKL OF LUCAN: My Lords, I apologise to my noble friend, but I would draw your Lordships' attention to the fact that there is to be a Royal Commission at a quarter to six, and it was arranged that it should not be later than that hour. It would perhaps be convenient, therefore, to break off the debate now and resume it after the Royal Commission.
House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed.

ROYAL COMMISSION.
The following Bills received the Royal Assent:

Treachery,

National Service (Armed Forces).

House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed, the Lord STRABOLGI on the Woolsack.

THE FIFTE COLUMN.
6.0 p.m.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, when the House adjourned temporarily I was speaking about British broadcasting, and I had suggested that this institution in London would be one of the first places which would be seized by any Nazi invading force, for the very obvious reasons which I described and need not go over again, it is absolutely essential that the personnel employed, permanently or temporarily, in that institution, having regard to the great importance broadcasting plays in the world to-day, should be without reproach. I want to suggest to His Majesty's Government that they should search through the personnel employed in the British broadcasting station in London, and in any other part of this country, and make sure there is not a single individual there for whom they cannot vouch without any chance of their being let down. There is at least one individual of whom I know in the broadcasting station in London who certainly should not occupy that position. I do not propose to name him here, but I shall hand his name on a piece of paper to my noble friend who will reply to this debate. But I shall say just this one thing about
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him, that he is married to a German lady whose brother is fighting against us. I ask the Government to look into that matter very seriously indeed.
My next question is, what steps are being taken about the refugees who are streaming over now from Holland and Belgium and in a lesser degree from Norway? It is within such recent knowledge that it is quite unnecessary to dilate upon the fact that those three countries were practically handed over to the Germans through the traitors within their midst. What easier thing is there than for the Germans to include their nationals in the guise of these different subjects and send them over here to add to the Fifth Column Army which is already growing up in this country? I ask the Government what steps they are taking to ensure that these Quislings shall not do similar nefarious acts in this country. I want further to ask His Majesty's Government what steps they are taking in regard to these people. Are they setting up a committee to look after them or what are they doing? I understand these people are being billeted out all over the country and that there is no proper supervision of them at all. If this country were invaded, and it is not at all unlikely, you will have absolutely no guarantee that many of these people will not turn round and assist the invader. I want further to suggest to His Majesty's Government that they might invite the United States of America, who are now thoroughly aroused to the situation in Europe, to say whether they could see their way to help us in the difficulties in which we are in this country over these refugees by taking some or a great many of them off our hands.
I apologise to the House for being so lengthy, but I feel that this is a subject of such immense importance at the present time that your Lordships will bear with me even if I have to go on for five or ten minutes longer. Lastly, I come to a set of people in this country, most of whom are of British birth, who, by their speeches and insidious whisperings and newspaper writings are doing an infinite amount of harm and throwing grit into our war machine all the time. They cannot escape criticism in a debate of this kind and at such a serious time. I refer particularly to the British-born Fascists, to the British-born Communists and to the so-called Peace-Pledgers.

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The first body is led by Sir Oswald Mosley, a man well known to your Lordships and regarding whom it is quite unnecessary for me to say anything personally. He has an organ called Action and in this organ there are constantly appearing paragraphs that are contrary to everything for which we are fighting and for the good conduct of this war. Then there are the Communists with their paper called the Daily Worker. The Daily Worker day in and day out is doing its best to undermine the morale of the people of this country. I have seen a good many of its editions and heard a great deal about what has been done in Yorkshire and in the Lothians and elsewhere. I have read also a number of the issues of that despicable and pernicious paper. The Peace-Pledgers have not to my knowledge an organ of the same kind as Action or the Daily Worker, but they are emitting all the time leaflets on a large scale all over the country trying to induce the people of this country to stop war altogether, either by negotiation or by any other means, at a moment when we were never in such a bad position. All three organisations are pledged to stop war as soon as possible at any price. What is more, both the British Fascists and the British Communists are pledged to upset our Constitution and to remodel it according to their own views.
There is a gentleman—I call him a gentleman—who emits daily poison over the air from Germany at three or four different times a day and night, commonly called in this country "Lord Haw-Haw" It may not be known to all your Lordships that "Lord Haw-Haw" until he went to Germany, was a leading member of the Fascist group in this country. In fact, I am advised that he was Sir Oswald Mosley's right-hand man. How are we to know that this man called "Lord Haw-Haw"—I believe his real name is Joyce, he is an Anglo-Irish renegade traitor—is not receiving information from his friends amongst the British Fascist group in this country daily to our undoing and our disfavour? All I can say is that I have listened to this man very often—I like to hear the other side—and I have been astonished at the information he has sent over from Germany about this country and about my own part of the country, Scotland, where I am mostly located—things that one would
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have thought were known only to very few in that limited area. I feel that Sir Oswald Mosley has a great deal to answer for and there are a great many people in this country who would like to see him in a place where he could do less harm than he is doing to-day.
When we are asked to pass legislation as we did yesterday conscripting the whole of our man-power and wealth so that this country may do its utmost to win the war, then I think we are justified in asking His Majesty's Government to eliminate these papers and these men which only undermine the big effort which we are all attempting to accomplish. I am going to submit to my noble friend that this matter should be taken into very serious consideration by His Majesty's Government. I am not going to suggest the wholesale internment of all the Germans and Austrian aliens in this country, but I am going to suggest that all doubtful cases, whatever the hardship that may be caused—and goodness knows we are all going to suffer great hardship in the future—should be interned with as little delay as possible. We cannot wait for tribunals which sit for weeks and then possibly through a sense of sympathy allow people to escape who ought to be shut up. This is not a time to deal with such matters with too much delicacy or nicety. We have to act. We are fighting for our very lives and for our existence as a free people against a most unscrupulous and ruthless enemy. We on the Home Front have a vital responsibility not to let down those who are gallantly and bravely fighting our battles in the war zone. We who are not in the Government are entitled to ask the Government to intern until this war is over any one of whatever nationality, male or female, who might have the slightest value to the enemy. Indeed, I submit that it is the bounden duty of the Government to do so. The Government if they do not do so will be guilty of a grave dereliction of duty for which they will not be forgiven. That, I submit, is the proper way in which to regard this question and I venture to urge upon His Majesty's Government that it is the only way. The country demands that it shall be so regarded, and, indeed, this is the sole policy with which the country will be content.
6.17 p.m.
LORD MARCHWOOD: My Lords, I feel that we are greatly indebted to the

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noble Viscount for bringing forward this Motion to-day. I rise to support it and to urge His Majesty's Government to take stronger measures immediately in view of the extreme gravity of the menace which confronts us. Present restrictions, as I view them and as I think the country views them, are totally inadequate. We have age limits between sixteen and sixty years. I am three years older than the extreme limit, but I am sure that if I were a Nazi I could do just as much damage as a man of forty or fifty. I should like to see not only "the restricted age limit but the restriction in regard to the area of residence removed. I should like to know also why women are excluded from the restrictions. I believe that women acting as spies against the interests of our country can be far more dangerous even than men. I know of houses near aerodromes and near the sea coast where German maids are employed. Nothing seems to be done about that. I have heard of cases where the police have told the authorities that they view with apprehension certain people. Inquiries are made and then the police are told; "Oh no, they are quite all right," and no restriction is put upon them. Surely something is wrong there and we are certainly playing into Hitler's hands unless we take stronger measures as regards people over here—the Communists, Fascists, and Peace-Pledgers—who are working against our efforts to win this war. Cannot some action be taken against these people who are working against the Government? At all events, we should stop the issue of their papers.
I feel sure the Government will tell me that it is a difficult matter to intern them all. Then I would say, in that case intern all enemy aliens and all aliens about whom there is any sort of suspicion until they can prove that they are not hostile to the interests of this country. At the present moment we are giving them preferential treatment as; compared with our own people at a time when we are facing grave dangers. Our Allies cannot understand us. They say that here is a great nation doing everything they possibly can to win the war, but leaving this great sore absolutely untouched. Let us prove to them that we are ready to act against treachery and treason in the same strong dynamic way as that in which our new Government are tackling things to-day. The Home Office seem to be mesmerized
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when it is found that an alien has been naturalized. They seem to think that when that has been done all the Hunnish virus evaporates. Nothing is farther from the truth and I have been forced to the conclusion that a Hun will always be a Hun and is ever ready to turn against those who have befriended him.
I had that experience in Singapore, when we had the mutiny there in the last war when the Germans were interned and we thought everything was quite all right. Even from inside that internment camp they were able, by their crafty underground methods, to get other people to do their nefarious work. They induced Arabs to go and make the Indian regiment there mutiny. The mutineers got arms from the Armoury and went and murdered the guard who were off duty resting and also shot the young fellows who were guarding the internment camp. One of them was a young employee of my own firm. Some of the Germans escaped to Java, whilst others were rounded up afterwards and put back again, but none of them suffered. The only people who suffered were the people who were murdered and an Arab who was executed for the part he had played.
Here we have our splendid police force and our wonderful Commissioner, Sir Philip Game. They have any amount of work and responsibility on their hands at the present time, but whenever they say that this or that person ought to be interned a tribunal comes along and says "No, we are not interning them" and the Home Office do nothing. At the very time when we may want the police on very urgent matters we ought to try to relieve them and not give them greater responsibilities to bear, as I feel is now being done. We have seen what has happened in neutral countries, through their not taking care of alien spies in their midst, which has resulted in thousands of our own soldiers, sailors and airmen losing their lives simply through that neglect. There is no doubt that there is a growing discontent and resentment throughout the country on the part of people who have their sons and relatives fighting at the front to-day, and if something is not done to tighten up restrictions and things happen to go badly for us, the Home Secretary and the Government will be held responsible for lives that may be lost. For that

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reason alone I urge that stronger measures should be taken.
Fighting for our lives and civilisation we cannot of course take unnecessary risks. For that reason I should like to support the noble Viscount's suggestion: that we should take no more refugees into the country at the present time, none whatever. I wonder whether the Government could make representations to the Americans, who have told us that they are prepared to send clothing and money for the refugees, that they should take a part of them over into their country and relieve us of the burden at the present time. I would wish that we should ask America if she cannot help us in our plight in this direction. We have strong able-bodied men coming over here as refugees from the Continent accompanied by women and children, who have been found out to be spies and working against the interests of this country. I am very pleased that we have passed legislation so that they can have capital punishment meted out to them as soon as they are found out. I urge the noble Duke to make representation to the Government and ask them to take stronger measures, for I believe, if steps are taken as I suggest, it will prevent the betrayal of our cause by Quislings and such-like loathsome reptiles who are now allowed to be at large in our midst. I make this plea because I feel it is in the interests of the country that something should be done at once, and strong measures at that.
6.25 p.m.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: My Lords, I am sure that the House is very much in my noble friend's debt for initiating this interesting and, I hope, valuable debate. It is very natural and proper that events which have taken place in other countries should have focused attention on the dangers to which we ourselves have been subjected owing to the presence in our midst of considerable numbers of aliens. My noble friend's Motion on the Paper refers only to aliens, but he did go at some length into other aspects of this question. I can assure him that individuals such as members of Fascist or Communist organisations and of the Irish Republican Army, British subjects who have been long resident in foreign countries and may have
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absorbed ideas current there, and other categories of persons who may be dangerous, are all being carefully borne in mind. My noble friend will be aware that a considerable number of persons of British nationality were arrested this morning. Some of their names have already been made known, and a list will be published as soon as the round-up has been completed. Those people have been arrested, not because of views they hold, but because of the danger that the organisations of which they are members might be used in the execution of acts prejudicial to the safety of the State.
There are two important factors to bear in mind in relation to aliens. One is that before 1914 there was no control whatever over immigration—no registration or records of the alien population—but that ever since that date there has been a strict control of immigration and provision for registration of all aliens. The second factor is that the alien population in this country is comparatively small. The total number of all nationalities, including refugees, at the outbreak of war was 238,000. That represents about one-tenth of the alien population of France. Moreover, our position is very different from that of Holland. In Holland there were 100,000 Nazi Germans resident in the country and in close touch with unknown numbers of Nazi Dutchmen. Holland, a small, weak country, desperately anxious to preserve her neutrality, was unable owing to treaty obligations to interfere in any way with free communication between Holland and Germany. As your Lordships will be aware, a treaty was in existence which gave the Germans the right of free access to Dutch territory, and the Dutch were anxious, as your Lordships can imagine, to avoid incurring the displeasure of their powerful neighbours by interfering with the activities of the German residents. Until the very moment of the outbreak of hostilities these Germans had been in close and unrestricted touch with their fellow-countrymen. Our own alien population here has been under supervision for the past twenty-five years, and under extremely close and rigorous supervision and entirely cut off from Germany for the past nine months.
To one phrase which my noble friend used to-day I feel bound to take exception. He said that at one point it became

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known that information was reaching Germany through the enemy aliens or refugees living in our midst. It became known to him, and it became known to writers of various tittle-tattle in the Press, but it became known to no responsible person, and my noble friend has no evidence whatever for making that suggestion. It did not become known that news reached Germany through these aliens.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: May I reply to that at once? We have always understood that it became known in that way. The noble Duke says that it did not become known, bur, until he can prove that it did not become known in that way, I think we are all entitled to believe that it did become known in that way.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: No, I think not. It is not possible to say that information has not reached Germany through these people, but it has not become known that it has.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: Am I to understand from the noble Duke that he denies that it has become known in that way?
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: Not for a moment. I do not deny it, but I do say that the noble Viscount has no right to say that informal ion was reaching the enemy through these people. It did not become known. Scores and scores of these stones of "Lord Haw-Haw" showing astonishing local knowledge, and so on, have been investigated, but there has been no shadow of evidence that information is reaching Germany through these sources.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: Then how did "Lord Haw-Haw" receive his information? I have listened to him very often, and have heard him say things that he could have known only through information from this country.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: There is internal evidence that he receives, no doubt from countries such as Holland, considerable numbers of local papers from this country, and no doubt he studies them.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: I do not want to go on with this, but he has mentioned things over the wireless which could not have become known to him through the local papers; they would aid not be mentioned in the local papers at all.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: My right honourable friend has investigated scores and scores of stories exactly similar to those which the noble Viscount now tells us. If the noble Viscount is in possession of details, he would be doing a national service by allowing them to be investigated, but I do beg him not to believe all the tittle-tattle which he hears.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: I believe my own ears.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: The alien population of this country increased considerably during the years 1933 to 1939 through the influx of about 55,000 refugees from Germany and Austria and of about 8,000 to 9,000 from Czechoslovakia. The total number of Germans and Austrians, including the 55,000 refugees, is about 74,000, the balance of 19,000 being composed partly of Germans and Austrians who have been long resident here and partly of female domestic servants admitted on Ministry of Labour permits. A considerable number of those belonging to the last-named category were allowed to go home on the outbreak of war, technicians and other persons who might have been of value to Germany's war effort being detained.
My noble friend rather implied that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Home Affairs has acted reluctantly and under duress. That is far from being the case; he has acted as he thought proper in the national interest, being in full possession of all the facts. Immediately on the outbreak of war, all Germans and Austrians whose names appeared on the Security list which had been maintained by the police—that is to say, members of Nazi organisations and so forth, people whose activities had been noted as undesirable—were forthwith interned. They numbered some 2,000. The immigration of both refugees and other aliens was stopped, even where the visa had previously been granted. Admission of aliens since the war has been limited to those whose visits to this country were in the national interest; they consisted for the most part of short-term visitors for business purposes, and these have been most carefully checked and supervised. It was decided at the outbreak of hostilities—and I think I can say that it was decided with the general approval of the public—that in view of the very large number of refugees among

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the Germans and Austrians, the policy of wholesale internment should not be pursued. It is one of Great Britain's oldest traditions that she is the friend of and provides succour for refugees flying from tyranny. It is a tradition which we value and which has been of value to us; we owe many trades in this country to refugees from past tyrannies.
It was recognised quite clearly at the time that there was some danger in pursuing this course, since obviously some of the so-called refugees might not be genuine refugees but enemy agents gaining a foothold in this country in the guise of refugees. To deal with this danger, the only alternative to a policy of wholesale internment—that is to say, the policy of the individual examination of each case on its merits—was adopted. Tribunals were established all over the country whose duty it was to classify enemy aliens into three categories. Category A were to be interned; Category B were to be subjected to special restrictions with regard to travelling more than five miles from their residences, the possession of certain articles such as cameras, motor cars and so on; and Category C were to be treated as friendly aliens and subjected only to the same restrictions as Allied and neutral aliens. My noble friend pressed strongly that non-enemy aliens should be more rigorously treated than they are now. I would remind him that non-enemy aliens are represented in this country by Ambassadors, and it is not really practical politics, unless you are in a position to make some definite charge against them, to arrest and intern Americans and other persons who can be described as non-enemy aliens. It is necessary to have something to go upon, or diplomatic representations will be made on their behalf, and you will find yourself in a very difficult position.
The tribunals—I do not know whether your Lordships are aware of these facts—were instructed, in any case where there was any doubt, to resolve the doubt in favour of national security. As a result of the investigations of the tribunals, a further 568 aliens were interned, 6,800 were placed in Category B, and 64,000 were placed in Category C. Of the last-named number, 51,000 were refugees, and 37,000 were women, of whom some 2,600 were British-born women. Whatever be
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the merits or demerits of the policy which has been pursued, it is important to remember that of the 74,000 Germans and Austrians and the 8,000 Czechs who are in this country, the vast majority hate the Germans, and with good reason, even more than we do. They have been the victims of Nazi persecution and cruelty. Many of them have fled from Germany without any of their possessions, in order to get away from a situation which they found to be intolerable. It is important to remember also that the vast majority of them are in jobs, many of which are of great national importance. The refugee population includes many persons of great scientific and technical attainments, and a considerable number of valuable new industries has been established here, especially in the Special Areas, under refugee direction and control.
I remember being very much impressed some three or four years ago when the Master of Trinity, one of the greatest scientists of this or of any other age, told me that since the Nazi regime had become firmly established, it was quite unnecessary to continue to read German scientific periodicals. It used to be absolutely necessary for anyone who wished to keep abreast of modern scientific thought and development to do this; but the persecution of the Jews and of all liberal-minded men, and the regimentation of all forms of thought, while not diminishing the volume of scientific writing, which remained about the same, so far reduced its value as to make it quite worthless; it was mere repetition of approved Nazi textbooks. We are undoubtedly the gainers, and the very substantial gainers, by the expulsion from Germany of very many of the best elements in the country, and I trust that we shall never be panicked into blunting or destroying what is a very powerful weapon in our hands.
Since the outbreak of war certain areas have been declared to be protected areas, and no aliens can enter or remain in such areas without the permission of the police authorities. On May 11, as the result of the invasions of Norway, Denmark and Holland, and Fifth Column activities in those countries, the Government decided on the clearance of all Germans from a larger area which included the whole of the south and east coasts of Britain. My noble friend asked specific questions as to why only these areas should have been closed and why aliens under sixteen and

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over sixty should not have been interned, and also why female aliens should not have been interned. The answer is that the zone was selected by the military authorities for the military areas. It was apparent from what happened in Holland and elsewhere that Filth Column activities depend upon rapidly arriving assistance from Germany itself and upon a concerted plan. There is no evidence whatever that any such plan exists, but if such a plan had existed it is believed that the clearing of those areas of male Germans between sixteen and sixty would effectively destroy it.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: Do you mean a plan of landing parachutists, or the landing in large numbers of troop carriers?
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: No. As a military plan we believe that land co-operation would be effectively destroyed by the internment of these categories of male aliens. I ought to warn your Lordships that many applications have already been received in regard to key-men in various industries which have been seriously affected by this measure, and it would undoubtedly be necessary to make some releases, for example, on the representations of my right honourable friend the Minister of Supply, who has found himself very seriously impeded by this measure.
It will be recalled that after the original review by the tribunals was concluded, a second review was begun. This review was to cover enemy aliens placed in Category B, and all aliens resident in the protected areas, and any in Category C about whom the police had some doubt. This second review has not yet been completed, but in view of the urgency of the situation the Home Secretary decided on May 15 that as a further immediate measure all males between sixteen and sixty at present in Category B should be temporarily interned. There are other categories of aliens besides enemy aliens or refugees. The principal classes are as follows: there are 47,600 Russians, 19,000 Italians, 13,600 Americans, 10,000 Swiss, 8,000 Polish and 11,600 French. There are also smaller numbers of very many different nationalities. The Russians are mainly people who have been resident here for many years but have never become naturalized—people who fled out of Russia at the time of the revolution in that country. The measures taken
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since the outbreak of war in regard to these aliens provide for very full registration particulars and the notification of any absence from the place of residence for more than fourteen days. As regards the eastern coastal area from which Germans and Austrians have been swept up in the last few days, stringent new restrictions have been placed on neutral and Allied aliens. These involve daily reporting to the police, the prohibition of the use of cars and bicycles and being indoors between 8 p.m. and 6 a.m.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: Why has the age of sixty been taken, or the minimum age of sixteen? The noble Duke has not answered that point.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: The Regulations I am dealing with now refer to all aliens in these areas, whether friendly or enemy aliens. I tried to make myself plain to the noble Viscount about the age question, sixteen to sixty, to which he attaches such importance. The position is that the Government, having considered this question very carefully, came to the conclusion that there was no evidence that any plan of co-operation between advancing Germans and Filth Column Germans here had been made, and, if it had, it would be effectively wrecked by the internment of male Germans between sixteen and sixty. I do not say it is wholly impossible that there may be other Germans who would be dangerous. The Germans may be relying on the Austrian housemaids in this country, but on the whole I think it is improbable that an effective scheme of military co-operation between parachutists or troops carried by aeroplanes could be carried out if all the male Germans between sixteen and sixty have been interned.
With regard to future action, I can assure your Lordships that the whole subject is under close and constant review by the responsible authorities. It is obviously inadvisable to announce in advance details of future action, which would enable fresh dispositions to be made by the Fifth Column, supposing there be one in existence in this country, but I want to emphasize that the policy is not static, but fluid. Developments which none of us can foresee may make different dispositions necessary, and I am not saying that the Government are firmly or irrevocably committed to any particular

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course, but that the matter is under constant and careful review by people who are in possession of all the facts as far as they are available.
There still remains to be considered Category C—men and women who were not included in the sweep-up in the coastal zone, and non-enemy aliens of all kinds. The only difference existing at the moment in the treatment of these classes is that Category C aliens are not free to enter the coastal zone. The purpose of the work of the tribunals since the outbreak of war has been to ascertain which of the Germans and Austrians could be treated as friendly aliens. There is, therefore, a strong case in logic for treating them and other aliens similarly. Actually, we probably know a good deal more in regard to Category C aliens than we do about many of the neutral alien residents who, as I said, are free to enter the non-protected area.
LORD HARMSWORTH: Can the noble Duke tell me whether from his experience and the experience of the Home Office the high police authorities in the counties and boroughs and in London are perfectly satisfied with the degree of restrictions placed on aliens in their areas?
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: The Home Office naturally are almost entirely guided in their policy by close and day-to-day contact with the police authorities throughout the country. I cannot say that every police officer is entirely satisfied, but I can give the most categorical assurance that the measures that are being taken have had the full approval of the police authorities.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: May I ask the noble Duke about Oxford? I have a telegram in my hand from the Chief Constable of Oxford, saying he has made representations to the Home Secretary and has not received any satisfaction.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: I was careful not to say that every police officer throughout the country was satisfied, but I said that, speaking broadly, the Home Office have been in the closest touch with the police authorities.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: I might also mention Aylesbury, which is close to Chequers.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: There remains the question of the refugees who are even now pouring into the country from Holland, Belgium and elsewhere. These refugees are examined at the ports of arrival by the immigration officers in collaboration with the security services, and are subjected to further examination at the reception centres in London before they are allowed to disperse to the billets provided for them. The danger of allowing refugees to come to this country without proper examination is fully realised by the authorities. This examination imposes a heavy strain on the responsible authorities, and since it has to be carried out in difficult and urgent conditions the Home Secretary has, as a further safeguard, made an Order requiring all refugees to comply with the special restrictions contained in Article 6A and Article 9A of the Aliens Order, which means, in effect, that they are treated as enemy aliens. Further, on arrival at their destination these refugees are required to fill in a detailed questionnaire giving definite information about themselves, with a view to appropriate action being taken. Arrangements are being made to obtain information as to the qualifications of these refugees, and it is proposed to absorb as many as possible into the industries of the country and to employ them in particular for such work as agricultural work.
In times of great stress such as we are passing through it is only too easy to be stampeded into adopting panic measures, and it is very understandable that the cry "Intern the lot" should be raised. I trust your Lordships will not join in that cry. The public safety is, and will remain, the Government's first consideration, and, as I have informed your Lordships, the tribunals have definite instructions that when in doubt they should intern the person concerned. But to intern the whole of these Category C enemy aliens would not only be unjust and cruel—that is a minor consideration; injustice and cruelty are inseparable from war, though justice and kindness remain worth while so long as safety permits b but also it would be a gross waste of effort and man-power which we can ill afford in this grave emergency. We are desperately short of many categories of skilled workers, agricultural workers, and many forms of labour, and many of these so-called enemy aliens are putting their

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backs into the cause, which is their cause as well as ours, and are doing valuable work. To deprive the country of their services and of the services of the people who would be required to look after them in concentration camps would be a waste of effort which would not be conducive to the object all of us have at heart.
6.54 p.m.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, I have listened to the noble Duke's reply, which of course was couched in the usual courteous terms in which he always replies to Motions in our debates. I find, however, very little comfort in the conditions in which we find ourselves to-day. The war has been going on now for nine months, and we; know what Nazi Germany had in view in those other countries, although naturally we were unable to stem the actions they had in contemplation until after they had taken them. If that speech had been delivered nine months ago it would have given me and a great many people in this country very great comfort. It would at least have indicated to the country that the whole subject would be kept under constant review. To-day the enemy is at our gate. We have not got time to consider this question from the point of view of constant review. I do not speak in any panic-stricken voice. I do not think any of us in this country will be panic-stricken even when the German lands in his parachute. But I feel that in order to retain the confidence of the country in this matter, if the Home Secretary, for whom I have the greatest respect, and whom I have known for many years—probably longer thin most members of this House—does not take stronger action than he is doing to-day, then I suggest that the Government should find somebody who will. I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

AUSTRIAN DIPLOMATIC OFFICERS.
6.57 p.m.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK VISCOUNT ELIBANK also had the following Notice on the Paper: To draw the attention of His Majesty's Government to the case of two Austrians named Kunz and Hausser, who were holding office as diplomatic secretaries in the Austrian Legation in London at the time of the subjugation of Austria by Germany in
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March, 1938, but who immediately transferred their allegiance and services to Nazi Germany and became diplomatic secretaries in the Nazi German Embassy in London for one and a-half years until war broke out in September, 1939; to ask His Majesty's Government whether they are aware that notwithstanding this record, one of them, Kunz, has been at liberty in this country ever since war began, whilst the other, Hausser, who was interned, may shortly be released, and whether in the circumstances described His Majesty's Government will give instructions that these two persons shall be interned for the duration of the war; and to move for Papers.
The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I deliberately put down this second Motion separately in order that I might receive a separate reply. It refers to two Austrians named Kunz and Hausser, who were holding diplomatic office in the Austrian Legation at the time of the subjugation of Austria by Germany in March, 1938, but who immediately transferred their allegiance and services to Nazi Germany and became diplomatic secretaries in the German Embassy in London for a year and a-half until war broke out. Notwithstanding this record, one of them, Kunz, has been at liberty in this country ever since war began, whilst the other, Hausser, who was interned has, I am informed, already been released. I really do not know how the Government or the Home Office can hope to receive the confidence of the country in this question of enemy aliens and their conduct during the war if they are going to act in this way with regard to two individuals of this kind. These two men, when they joined the German Embassy in March, 1938, must have professed Nazism, and living as they did for nearly a year and a-half in the German Embassy——
LORD NEWTON: Not a year and a half.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: From March, 1938, to August, 1939, which is nearly a year and a half. Living as they did in the German Embassy and surrounded by Nazis, they would not have been allowed to stay unless they had professed Nazism as well. It is common knowledge—we hear these things in London at the luncheon or dinner table or as one goes about; one learns the opinions of people like that.
LORD NEWTON: What are their opinions worth?
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: If the noble Lord will allow me to make my speech he will have an opportunity to reply. Their views became known, and it is common knowledge that both these men, Kunz and Hausser, professed strong Nazism right up to the period when the war broke out. They decided, I suppose, that it was better for them to remain here rather than go back to Germany. One of them is married to an English woman, the other is married to a Frenchwoman. I do not propose to deal with that side of the matter at all, but I do suggest that 999 people out of every 1,000 in this country feel, as all those to whom I have mentioned this matter feel, that these two persons should be interned for the rest of the war. Unless that is done it is unfair to intern other people who have not shown by their actions the same Nazi sympathies as these two men have done. I beg to move.
7.2 p.m.
LORD NEWTON: My Lords, before the noble Duke answers I should like to say a word with regard to one of the individuals mentioned. I know nothing about Herr Hausser, but I am acquainted with Mr. Kunz, who has been serving in what used to be the Austrian Legation for a good many years, and perhaps it will be a surprise to my noble friend to hear that there is no one in this House or anywhere else who detests the Nazi regime more than Mr. Kunz does. What my noble friend has alleged about Mr. Kunz serving the Nazi Government and having adopted Nazi principles and the Nazi creed is quite erroneous. What happened was this. When Austria was seized by the Germans naturally all Austrians became German citizens. Somebody was required to wind up the affairs of the Austrian Legation in London. Mr. Kunz undertook this work, and when his work, which was extremely distasteful although he was working on behalf of his own countrymen and not for Nazi principles at all, came to an end he left. My noble friend is entirely mistaken in alleging that he remained there as a Nazi agent until the outbreak of war.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: To make it clear, will the noble Lord say when he left the Embassy?
LORD NEWTON: I understand he left about Christmas, but I will not guarantee it. Anyhow it was long before the war broke out. In order to corroborate what I said I will ask the noble Duke, who is to answer the question, whether he has made any inquiries at the Foreign Office with regard to this gentleman. I know nothing at all about Herr Hausser, but I am perfectly certain that if the noble Viscount had consulted anybody in the Foreign Office, and I presume the people responsible for this action have consulted them, he would have been told exactly the same as I was about this particular man Kunz. I cannot help thinking that when a crisis arises—I say it with no disrespect to my noble friend—people in this country lose their heads. In the late war, I remember well enough, when we were more or less in the same position as now, there was the same outcry: "Put every alien behind barbed wire." All I can say, as far as I am concerned, is that I should not myself feel any safer if I heard that every German female servant was behind barbed wire. In former days I had something to do with this question myself, and my experience was that the really dangerous aliens were not the natives of the country with which we were fighting but the neutrals, and worse than them were our own countrymen.
What I would suggest to my noble friend is that he should confine his activities to the matters raised in his earlier question with which I am in complete sympathy. Personally I see absolutely no sense in imprisoning wholesale every alien that you can get hold of. Both my noble friend and the noble Lord behind him disclaimed any intention of interning everybody, but their views could not be carried out without interning everybody, and I wonder very much where they would all be put. He suggested that refugees should be disposed of by sending them to America. That is an admirable solution from our point of view, but can you conceive the Americans or anyone else agreeing to receive hundreds of thousands of refugees merely because we ask them to do so? I would invite my noble friend to concentrate on the points raised in his earlier question. He is urging that we should intern people who are suspected and who may possibly be hostile in sentiment to us. But why not deal with the people we know to be hostile to us?

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Why do not we deal with our own traitors? Why do not we deal with the proprietors of the Daily Worker? Why do not we intern Sir Oswald Mosley? And why do not we intern all the people who are doing their best to defeat our present efforts? That is the point on which. I think we might very well concentrate. We may well ignore the cases of harmless aliens like that of the man I have mentioned who is alluded to in the question.
7.7 p.m.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: My Lords, my noble friend will appreciate that the internment of enemy aliens in time of war is carried out in exercise of the Royal Prerogative, and it is obviously not in the public interest to state publicly the reasons for the exercise or the non-exercise of these powers in relation to particular individuals. I can assure my noble friend, however, that the Home Secretary has very full information at his disposal in regard to the two Austrians to whom he refers, and their cases have been given adequate consideration from time to time in view of the information available at the moment. I can inform him that Adolph Kunz has been recently interned. Edmund Hausser was interned on January 15 on the recommendation of an aliens tribunal, aid his case was later referred by the Home Secretary to the Aliens Advisory Committee which is presided over by Mr. Norman Birkett. The Home Secretary, after considering the Report of the Advisory Committee, decided to authorise his release. The noble Lord will appreciate that any decisions of this character made by the Home Secretary are subject to reconsideration in view of any new information which may become available to the authorities.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: May I interrupt the noble Duke to ask who the other members of the Committee over which Mr. Norman Birkett presided were? It is rather important to know.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: I am afraid I will have to let the noble Lord know about that later. He will appreciate that these decisions are subject to
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review, and his observations made to-day—and this applies to his other Motion—will be brought to the attention of the Home Secretary who will give them his most careful consideration.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, in view of what the noble Duke has said I beg to withdraw the Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
7.9 p.m.
LORD SNELL: Will the noble Earl, Lord Lucan, be good enough to say whether he can give us any information about the business of the House next week?
THE EARL OF LUCAN: My Lords, I am much obliged to my noble friend for asking that question. On Tuesday the business is that on the Paper—namely, the Committee stages of two Scottish Bills and the Third Reading of another Bill. On Wednesday there is no business on the Paper at present, but there will probably be two introductions on that day and the House will meet as usual. On Thursday the Duke of Montrose has a Motion on the Paper on the shortage of agricultural labour. In addition to this the National Loans Bill, a Bill to extend the Government's borrowing powers, is expected from another place late on Wednesday next. I am afraid it will be necessary to ask your Lordships to pass this Bill as a matter of urgency through all stages at the sitting on Thursday, but as in the case of the two Bills dealt with to-day steps will be taken to circulate the Bill in the form in which it was presented to the House of Commons in order to give your Lordships an opportunity of studying its provisions before you have to deal with them. The House will meet each day at four o'clock.
House adjourned at eleven minutes past seven o'clock.