§ 4.10 p.m.
§ Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
§ Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Duke of Devonshire.)
892§ On Question, Motion agreed to.
§ House in Committee accordingly:
§ [The EARL OF ONSLOW in the Chair.]
§ Clauses 1 to 5 agreed to.
§ THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR DOMINION AFFAIRS (THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE) moved, after Clause 5, to insert the following clause:
§ Power of Northern Ireland Parliament to amend s. 14 (3) (a) of 2 and 3 Geo. 6 c. 84.
§ ",such of the provisions of paragraph (a) of subsection (3) of Section fourteen of the National Health Insurance and Contributory Pensions (Emergency Provisions) Act, 1939, as relate to the payment of additional amounts in respect of pensions shall, so far as those provisions extend to matters with respect to which the Parliament of Northern Ireland has power to make laws, be treated for the purposes of Section six of the Government of Ireland Act, 1920, as an enactment passed before the appointed day."
§ The noble Duke said: This Amendment is almost entirely a drafting one. The Government of Northern Ireland have already given notice that they intend to introduce a Bill on the same lines as the Bill before us this afternoon, and this new clause gives the Government of Northern Ireland powers to introduce such a Bill. I do not think I need detain your Lordships with any long explanation. It is really a question of drafting.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 6, after Clause 5 insert the said new clause.—(The Duke of Devonshire.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clauses 6 to 9 agreed to.
§ Clause 10:
§ Provision for dealing with special cases.
§
(3) Where it appears to an officer of the Assistance Board that by reason of the bodily or mental condition of an applicant for a supplementary pension, it is desirable that the appeal tribunal should consider whether it is in the interests of the applicant that he should become an inmate of an institution, the officer shall consult with the appropriate officer of the public assistance authority for the area in which the applicant is, and may after such consultation make a special report to that tribunal, and if it appears to him that in consequence of the report the applicant may become chargeable to any public assistance authority shall forthwith inform that authority of the making of the report; and after receiving such a special report and affording to the applicant an opportunity of being heard, the tribunal may direct that the applicant shall cease to be eligible for a supplementary pension:
893
Provided that—
§ (4) In the last foregoing subsection the expression "appropriate officer" means in relation to any public assistance authority such officer as may have been named by that authority to the Board, or, if no such officer has been so named, a relieving officer of that authority.
§ THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE moved to leave out subsections (3) and (4). The noble Duke said: According to the promise I made to the House on the Second Reading, I now beg leave to withdraw these two subsections to which exception was taken in another place. Subsection (3), which is the operative one, was inserted in the Bill for the purpose of providing convenient machinery for the settlement of differences of opinion which might arise on the question whether it was or was not in the best interest of an applicant for supplementary pension that he should in fact receive a pension or should become an inmate of an institution. The kind of case which was contemplated was that of an infirm old age pensioner without friends or relatives who could look after him or her, and in whose interests it might well be that he or she should enter an institution, but for easily understandable reasons the pensioner might be unwilling to do so. Similarly, differences might conceivably arise between the officers of the Board and the officers of the public assistance authority as to whose responsibility the pensioner in question should be. The view was expressed in another place that this subsection might be operated harshly and to the detriment of old age pensioners generally. My right honourable friend the Minister of Health did not share that view, but he did make a promise to review the whole position, and after consideration he has come to the conclusion that the number of cases of this kind would be so small that it is hardly worth while including these subsections in the Bill.
894§ The Government are, therefore, moving to omit subsection (3) and the consequential subsection (4), but my right honourable friend wants me to make it very clear that the removal of these subsections from the Bill is not to be regarded as relieving public assistance authorities in any way from their duty to provide institutional treatment and care for those persons whose interests could best be served by admission into an institution. The position will be that those needs of old age pensioners which can best be met by the payment of money will be the responsibility of the Assistance Board, but that all other needs will remain the responsibility of the public assistance authorities. The most obvious of these needs is that of medical treatment whether at home or in hospital. Another need is the need for institutional care which may well arise because of the natural infirmities of old age and the lack of relatives able and willing to provide the necessary care and attention. The subsections are being removed, but my right honourable friend is removing them only because he feels confident that public assistance authorities and their officers will be ready to co-operate with the officers of the Board in dealing suitably with this limited number of cases where the pensioners' needs would be better met by institutional care than by the payment of a supplementary pension. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 35, leave out subsections (3) and (4).—(The Duke of Devonshire.)
§ THE EARL OF LISTOWELAS this is the most important Amendment the Government have thought fit to propose at this stage of the Bill, I should like to say that we are most grateful to the Minister for his change of mind. We felt, as the noble Duke has indeed already explained, that these provisions might cause hardship to certain border-line cases among old age pensioners, and might also give rise to friction between the Assistance Board and the local authorities. These provisions were, in fact, an innovation, and we are exceedingly glad that the Government have decided to maintain the status quo.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 10, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clauses 11 to 16 agreed to.
895§ Clause 17:
§ Superannuation.
§
17. Notwithstanding the expiration of the period of twelve months after the commencement of the Superannuation Act, 1935, rules may, within six months from the passing of this Act, be made under Section nine of that Act applying to persons who become officers or servants of the Assistance Board after the passing of this Act the rules in force under that section applicable to other persons who become civil servants; and as from the date from which such rules come into operation Section fifty-one of the Unemployment Act, 1934, is hereby repealed:
Provided that nothing in this section or in any rules made thereunder shall affect the superannuation benefits of any person who became an officer or servant of the Board before that date.
§ THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE moved to leave out "persons" and insert "pensionable officers or servants of local authorities." The noble Duke said: This is almost, but perhaps not quite, a drafting Amendment. It is designed to bring the Bill in its phraseology into line with the Local Government Superannuation Acts. I do not think I need explain it at greater length. There was a slight difference in the phrase used in this Bill from that used in the Local Government Superannuation Acts and this Amendment is designed to bring the phraseology of the Bill into line.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 40, leave out ("persons") and insert ("pensionable officers or servants of local authorities").—(The Duke of Devonshire.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIREThe next Amendment is drafting. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 41, after the second ("the") insert ("date of the")—(The Duke of Devonshire.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE moved, after "civil servants," to insert:
and the rules so made shall provide for treating any pensionable officer or servant of a local authority who becomes an officer or servant of the Board within one year after that date as a pensionable officer or servant of a local authority to which those rules apply, notwithstanding that the Treasury may not have directed that the rules should apply to that authority and that no application may have been made by the authority in that behalf.
§ The noble Duke said: As the clause stands, a pensionable local government employee transferred to the Board would not carry with him any pension rights in respect of his past local government service unless, on the request of the local authority, the Treasury directed that the rules made under the Superannuation Act, 1935, should apply to that authority. I have no doubt that in the vast majority of cases the local authorities would in fact make that request, even if the rules did not already apply to them, and that the Treasury would readily comply. But it has been represented to the Government that the employee who transfers his services from a public assistance authority to the Board should be in the position to retain his local government pension rights quite apart from the exercise of a discretion by the authority whose service he leaves. It has been pointed out that the position is not quite the same as that of a local government officer who elects, entirely as a free change, to transfer to a Civil Service post which may be open to him. It is probable that as a result of this Bill the work of some public assistance authorities will be very substantially reduced and that the services of some officers may become redundant. Clause 16 of the Bill provides for compensation in such cases. It is quite conceivable that an active man might not wish to give up work, but might naturally prefer to accept ail offer of a post under the Board carrying the same kind of work that he was engaged on before, if such an offer were made. In cases of that kind it seems only right and equitable that as a question of right, and not as a question of discretion, he should carry his pension rights with him. This Amendment is designed to secure to an officer who may be displaced all his rights.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 2, after ("servants") insert the said words.—(The Duke of Devonshire.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 17, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 18 [Interpretation]:
§ THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIREThere is a drafting Amendment to this clause. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 21, leave out ("1939") and insert ("1940").—(The Duke of Devonshire.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
897§ Clause 18, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 19 [Application of Part II to Scotland]:
§ THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIREThere is an Amendment to be made in this clause, consequential on the Amendment to Clause 10.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 41, leave out from ("authority") to ("and") in line 2 on page 14.—(The Duke of Devonshire.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 19, as amended, agreed to.
§ Remaining clause agreed to.
§ First Schedule [Consequential Amendments of Contributory Pensions Acts]:
§ THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIREThe first Amendment to this Schedule is purely drafting. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 16, line 20, column 2, leave out ("and").—(The Duke of Devonshire.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIREThere is another drafting Amendment to be made in this Schedule. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 16, line 26, column 2, after ("forty") insert ("and as if at the end of proviso (1) to subsection (1) there were in-sorted the words 'and for the reference to the third day of July, nineteen hundred and thirty-nine'").—(The Duke of Devonshire.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE EARL OF LISTOWELI should like to make one comment before this Schedule is passed. All the provisions of this Schedule refer to the Act of 1936 and none of them refer to the Bill that is now before your Lordships for consideration. I believe it is no exaggeration to say that this Bill is one of the most glaring examples of legislation by reference that has come before your Lordships for a very long time. I regret very much that the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, who is always such a doughty opponent of this form of legislation, is not able to be present this afternoon to put the case. Enactments relating to old age pensions go back now over a period of thirty years and I think it is true to say that there has not been a single Bill introduced into Parliament to consolidate previous Statutes. I would like to ask the noble Duke if he would put to the 898 Government through the Minister of Health a request that they should turn over the question of how soon it would be possible to appoint a Consolidation Committee to review the whole of the Statutes relating to old age pensions in order that they may be put together into one single Act.
§ THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIREI will certainly bring the noble Earl's representation to the notice of my right honourable friend.
§ First Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
§ Second Schedule:
§ SECOND SCHEDULE.
§ PROVISIONS OF 24 & 25 GEO. 5. C. 29, APPLIED WITH MODIFICATIONS.
§ Provisions applied.—Modifications.
§
Subsections (2), (3), (4) and (5) of Section thirty-eight.
…subsection (3) shall have effect as if for the words "made under this Part of this Act" there were substituted the words "having effect for the purposes of Part II of the old Age and Widows' Pensions Act, 1940," and as if after the words "that is to say" there were inserted the following paragraphs:
§ Eighth Schedule.—For the Schedule there shall be substituted the following Schedule:
§ EIGHTH SCHEDULE.
§ MODIFICATION OF ENACTMENTS RELATING TO
RELIEF OF THE POOR.