Lords Sitting of 18 March 1940

Preamble
The House met at four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
NEWCASTLE AND GATESHEAD WATERWORKS BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1ª and referred to the Examiners.
STAFFORDSHIRE AND WORCESTERSHIRE CANAL BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1ª and referred to the Examiners.
BRIGHTON MARINE PALACE AND PIER BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3ª, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3ª, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
ROYAL SOCIETY FOR THE PREVENTION OF CRUELTY TO ANIMALS BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3ª, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

CONGRATULATIONS TO THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND.
4.2 p.m.
LOKD SNELL: My Lords, I hope the House will allow me the privilege, on behalf of my noble friends and myself, and I am sure on behalf of the whole House, of expressing our very sincere congratulations to the noble Marquess, Lord Zetland, on his most fortunate escape from what might have been an additional and very tragic experience, and to say with what relief and thankfulness we welcome him back to the House. We trust, I am sure, that he is not much worse for his very trying experience, and we should all like to join in wishing him many years of health and useful work
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for India, which he has served with such loyalty and complete devotion. I am sure, in saying that, I have the assent of the whole House.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, may I be permitted on behalf of noble Lords on these Benches to supplement what has been so well said by the Leader of the Opposition and to express our cordial congratulations to the noble Marquess on his escape? When we saw in the headlines that he had been shot at, we all of us felt a great shock, and when, reading down, we found that he had been only slightly wounded, the relief was proportionate. The noble Marquess, in the clothing which he wore, has an heirloom to leave to his family. I feel certain that the whole country will share with this House the pleasure we feel in seeing him back in his place to-day.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA AND BURMA (THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND): My Lords I need hardly say how greatly I appreciate the words which have fallen from the lips of the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition and the noble Viscount who sits on the Liberal Benches. I do indeed appreciate their sympathy and their good will, and not least do I appreciate their congratulations to me upon my escape from injuries which might have been attended by more serious and, indeed, fatal consequences. But at this moment it is to Lady O'Dwyer that my thoughts go, as indeed I am sure do the thoughts of all your Lordships. For her the death, and more particularly the manner of the death, of so brilliant and so conscientious a public servant must be a tragedy overwhelming in its magnitude.
It has been brought to my notice that apprehensions have arisen in various quarters lest this tragedy be permitted to affect the judgment of His Majesty's Government upon the affairs of India. I am indeed sorry that any such apprehensions should have arisen, but since they have found expression, I am glad of this early opportunity of stating in public, what I have already said more than once in private, that the act of an isolated fanatic cannot conceivably have the smallest influence upon the judgment of His Majesty's Government one way or the other regarding the affairs of India. I hope I may say, speaking in my personal capacity, that my affection for

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and admiration of things Indian, and for the Indian peoples, are far too deeply rooted to be in any way shaken by an episode which really has no bearing upon the general question of the relations between the peoples of the two countries. I beg once more to thank your Lordships for your extreme kindness.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
4.7 p.m.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (EARL STANHOPE): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion that stands in my name.
Moved, That Standing Orders Nos. XXI and XXXIX be considered in order to their being suspended until the House do adjourn for the recess at Easter and that until that date Government Business have precedence over other Notices and Orders of the Day, unless the Government agree to the contrary.—(Earl Stanhope.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (CANTERBURY) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order) on re-commitment of the Bill: Bill reported without amendment.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (ILKLEY) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order) on re-commitment of the Bill: Bill reported without amendment.
RATING AND VALUATION (POSTPONEMENT OF VALUATIONS) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.

OLD AGE AND WIDOWS' PENSIONS BILL.
4.10 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Duke of Devonshire.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[The EARL OF ONSLOW in the Chair.]
Clauses 1 to 5 agreed to.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR DOMINION AFFAIRS (THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE)THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR DOMINION AFFAIRS (THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE) moved, after Clause 5, to insert the following clause:
Power of Northern Ireland Parliament to amend s. 14 (3) (a) of 2 and 3 Geo. 6 c. 84.
",such of the provisions of paragraph (a) of subsection (3) of Section fourteen of the National Health Insurance and Contributory Pensions (Emergency Provisions) Act, 1939, as relate to the payment of additional amounts in respect of pensions shall, so far as those provisions extend to matters with respect to which the Parliament of Northern Ireland has power to make laws, be treated for the purposes of Section six of the Government of Ireland Act, 1920, as an enactment passed before the appointed day."
The noble Duke said: This Amendment is almost entirely a drafting one. The Government of Northern Ireland have already given notice that they intend to introduce a Bill on the same lines as the Bill before us this afternoon, and this new clause gives the Government of Northern Ireland powers to introduce such a Bill. I do not think I need detain your Lordships with any long explanation. It is really a question of drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, after Clause 5 insert the said new clause.—(The Duke of Devonshire.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clauses 6 to 9 agreed to.
Clause 10:
Provision for dealing with special cases.
(3) Where it appears to an officer of the Assistance Board that by reason of the bodily or mental condition of an applicant for a supplementary pension, it is desirable that the appeal tribunal should consider whether it is in the interests of the applicant that he should become an inmate of an institution, the officer shall consult with the appropriate officer of the public assistance authority for the area in which the applicant is, and may after such consultation make a special report to that tribunal, and if it appears to him that in consequence of the report the applicant may become chargeable to any public assistance authority shall forthwith inform that authority of the making of the report; and after receiving such a special report and affording to the applicant an opportunity of being heard, the tribunal may direct that the applicant shall cease to be eligible for a supplementary pension:

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Provided that—

(a) no such direction shall be given until an opportunity to be heard has been afforded to any public assistance authority appearing to the tribunal to be concerned; and

(b) a person with respect to whom such a direction has been given may at such intervals as may be prescribed, and any public assistance authority to which a person has become chargeable by reason of any such direction may at anytime, apply to the appeal tribunal for reconsideration of the case, and upon any such application the tribunal may, if they think fit, revoke the direction.

(4) In the last foregoing subsection the expression "appropriate officer" means in relation to any public assistance authority such officer as may have been named by that authority to the Board, or, if no such officer has been so named, a relieving officer of that authority.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE moved to leave out subsections (3) and (4). The noble Duke said: According to the promise I made to the House on the Second Reading, I now beg leave to withdraw these two subsections to which exception was taken in another place. Subsection (3), which is the operative one, was inserted in the Bill for the purpose of providing convenient machinery for the settlement of differences of opinion which might arise on the question whether it was or was not in the best interest of an applicant for supplementary pension that he should in fact receive a pension or should become an inmate of an institution. The kind of case which was contemplated was that of an infirm old age pensioner without friends or relatives who could look after him or her, and in whose interests it might well be that he or she should enter an institution, but for easily understandable reasons the pensioner might be unwilling to do so. Similarly, differences might conceivably arise between the officers of the Board and the officers of the public assistance authority as to whose responsibility the pensioner in question should be. The view was expressed in another place that this subsection might be operated harshly and to the detriment of old age pensioners generally. My right honourable friend the Minister of Health did not share that view, but he did make a promise to review the whole position, and after consideration he has come to the conclusion that the number of cases of this kind would be so small that it is hardly worth while including these subsections in the Bill.
The Government are, therefore, moving to omit subsection (3) and the consequential subsection (4), but my right honourable friend wants me to make it very clear that the removal of these subsections from the Bill is not to be regarded as relieving public assistance authorities in any way from their duty to provide institutional treatment and care for those persons whose interests could best be served by admission into an institution. The position will be that those needs of old age pensioners which can best be met by the payment of money will be the responsibility of the Assistance Board, but that all other needs will remain the responsibility of the public assistance authorities. The most obvious of these needs is that of medical treatment whether at home or in hospital. Another need is the need for institutional care which may well arise because of the natural infirmities of old age and the lack of relatives able and willing to provide the necessary care and attention. The subsections are being removed, but my right honourable friend is removing them only because he feels confident that public assistance authorities and their officers will be ready to co-operate with the officers of the Board in dealing suitably with this limited number of cases where the pensioners' needs would be better met by institutional care than by the payment of a supplementary pension. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 35, leave out subsections (3) and (4).—(The Duke of Devonshire.)
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: AS this is the most important Amendment the Government have thought fit to propose at this stage of the Bill, I should like to say that we are most grateful to the Minister for his change of mind. We felt, as the noble Duke has indeed already explained, that these provisions might cause hardship to certain border-line cases among old age pensioners, and might also give rise to friction between the Assistance Board and the local authorities. These provisions were, in fact, an innovation, and we are exceedingly glad that the Government have decided to maintain the status quo.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 10, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 11 to 16 agreed to.
Clause 17:
Superannuation.
17. Notwithstanding the expiration of the period of twelve months after the commencement of the Superannuation Act, 1935, rules may, within six months from the passing of this Act, be made under Section nine of that Act applying to persons who become officers or servants of the Assistance Board after the passing of this Act the rules in force under that section applicable to other persons who become civil servants; and as from the date from which such rules come into operation Section fifty-one of the Unemployment Act, 1934, is hereby repealed:
Provided that nothing in this section or in any rules made thereunder shall affect the superannuation benefits of any person who became an officer or servant of the Board before that date.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE moved to leave out "persons" and insert "pensionable officers or servants of local authorities." The noble Duke said: This is almost, but perhaps not quite, a drafting Amendment. It is designed to bring the Bill in its phraseology into line with the Local Government Superannuation Acts. I do not think I need explain it at greater length. There was a slight difference in the phrase used in this Bill from that used in the Local Government Superannuation Acts and this Amendment is designed to bring the phraseology of the Bill into line.
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 40, leave out ("persons") and insert ("pensionable officers or servants of local authorities").—(The Duke of Devonshire.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: The next Amendment is drafting. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 41, after the second ("the") insert ("date of the")—(The Duke of Devonshire.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE moved, after "civil servants," to insert:
"and the rules so made shall provide for treating any pensionable officer or servant of a local authority who becomes an officer or servant of the Board within one year after that date as a pensionable officer or servant of a local authority to which those rules apply, notwithstanding that the Treasury may not have directed that the rules should apply to that authority and that no application may have been made by the authority in that behalf."
The noble Duke said: As the clause stands, a pensionable local government employee transferred to the Board would not carry with him any pension rights in respect of his past local government service unless, on the request of the local authority, the Treasury directed that the rules made under the Superannuation Act, 1935, should apply to that authority. I have no doubt that in the vast majority of cases the local authorities would in fact make that request, even if the rules did not already apply to them, and that the Treasury would readily comply. But it has been represented to the Government that the employee who transfers his services from a public assistance authority to the Board should be in the position to retain his local government pension rights quite apart from the exercise of a discretion by the authority whose service he leaves. It has been pointed out that the position is not quite the same as that of a local government officer who elects, entirely as a free change, to transfer to a Civil Service post which may be open to him. It is probable that as a result of this Bill the work of some public assistance authorities will be very substantially reduced and that the services of some officers may become redundant. Clause 16 of the Bill provides for compensation in such cases. It is quite conceivable that an active man might not wish to give up work, but might naturally prefer to accept ail offer of a post under the Board carrying the same kind of work that he was engaged on before, if such an offer were made. In cases of that kind it seems only right and equitable that as a question of right, and not as a question of discretion, he should carry his pension rights with him. This Amendment is designed to secure to an officer who may be displaced all his rights.
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 2, after ("servants") insert the said words.—(The Duke of Devonshire.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 17, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 18 [Interpretation]:
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: There is a drafting Amendment to this clause. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 21, leave out ("1939") and insert ("1940").—(The Duke of Devonshire.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 18, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 19 [Application of Part II to Scotland]:
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: There is an Amendment to be made in this clause, consequential on the Amendment to Clause 10.
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 41, leave out from ("authority") to ("and") in line 2 on page 14.—(The Duke of Devonshire.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 19, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clause agreed to.
First Schedule [Consequential Amendments of Contributory Pensions Acts]:
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: The first Amendment to this Schedule is purely drafting. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 16, line 20, column 2, leave out ("and").—(The Duke of Devonshire.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: There is another drafting Amendment to be made in this Schedule. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 16, line 26, column 2, after ("forty") insert ("and as if at the end of proviso (1) to subsection (1) there were in-sorted the words 'and for the reference to the third day of July, nineteen hundred and thirty-nine'").—(The Duke of Devonshire.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I should like to make one comment before this Schedule is passed. All the provisions of this Schedule refer to the Act of 1936 and none of them refer to the Bill that is now before your Lordships for consideration. I believe it is no exaggeration to say that this Bill is one of the most glaring examples of legislation by reference that has come before your Lordships for a very long time. I regret very much that the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, who is always such a doughty opponent of this form of legislation, is not able to be present this afternoon to put the case. Enactments relating to old age pensions go back now over a period of thirty years and I think it is true to say that there has not been a single Bill introduced into Parliament to consolidate previous Statutes. I would like to ask the noble Duke if he would put to the
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Government through the Minister of Health a request that they should turn over the question of how soon it would be possible to appoint a Consolidation Committee to review the whole of the Statutes relating to old age pensions in order that they may be put together into one single Act.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: I will certainly bring the noble Earl's representation to the notice of my right honourable friend.
First Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
Second Schedule:
SECOND SCHEDULE.
PROVISIONS OF 24 & 25 GEO. 5. C. 29, APPLIED WITH MODIFICATIONS.
Provisions applied.—Modifications.
Subsections (2), (3), (4) and (5) of Section thirty-eight.
…subsection (3) shall have effect as if for the words "made under this Part of this Act" there were substituted the words "having effect for the purposes of Part II of the old Age and Widows' Pensions Act, 1940," and as if after the words "that is to say" there were inserted the following paragraphs:

"(a) the first seven shillings and sixpence of any superannuation payment in respect of previous service or employment from which the recipient has retired or resigned (whether payable by a former employer or not) not being a payment on account of an old age pension, as defined in Part II of the Old Age and Widows' Pensions Act, 1940, shall be disregarded;

(b) the first seven shillings and sixpence of any sickness payment under Part I of the Old Age and Widows' Pensions Act,1940, shall be disregarded";

Eighth Schedule.—For the Schedule there shall be substituted the following Schedule:
EIGHTH SCHEDULE.
MODIFICATION OF ENACTMENTS RELATING TO RELIEF OF THE POOR.

PART III.
Provisions applying to Scotland.
1. A poor law authority shall not after the commencement of this Schedule afford outdoor relief—
Provided that—
(ii) nothing in this paragraph shall prohibit outdoor relief being afforded otherwise than in money to any person in a case of sudden or urgent necessity;
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: The first Amendment to this Schedule is designed to secure that the numbering of the different items is consecutive. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 20, line 13, column 2, leave out from ("after") to ("there") in line 14 and insert (paragraph (e)").—(The Duke of Devonshire.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: The second Amendment to this Schedule is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 20, line 16, column 2, leave out ("(a)") and insert ("(f)").—(The Duke of Devonshire.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: The next Amendment is also drafting. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 20, line 17, column 2, after ("sixpence") insert ("a week").—(The Duke of Devonshire.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: The next Amendment is also drafting. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 20, line 28, column 2, leave out ("(b)") and insert ("(g)").—(The Duke of Devonshire.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: There is another drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 20, line 29, column 2, after ("sixpence") insert ("a week").—(The Duke of Devonshire.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
4.27 p.m.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL THE EARL OF LISTOWEL moved, after paragraph (b) in the references to subsections (2), (3), (4) and (5) of Section thirty-eight, to insert:
"(c) the whole of any wounds military or disability pension shall be disregarded;
(d) the whole of any weekly payment under the enactments relating to workmen's compensation or employers' liability shall be disregarded."
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The noble Earl said: I beg to move the Amendment standing in the name of my noble friend Lord Snell and myself. The object of the Amendment is to mitigate the hardship that will be imposed when the household means test is put into practice. We registered our objection to this particular form of test on the Second Reading, and we do not intend to weary the Committee by repeating arguments. We felt that the most useful method of mitigating the unnecessary suffering and the unwarranted difficulties that this provision will cause would be a general Amendment which would have the effect of lessening the financial burden on the occupants of a house that might be occupied by an old age pensioner. The first part of this Amendment deals with the case of ex-Service men—men who served in the last war, or in the Boer War, and received injuries, such as loss of limbs or permanent impairment of health, which entitled them to receive pensions. I think it will be generally agreed that the object of a disability pension is in some measure to compensate the victim of such an injury for the loss he sustained. It is clearly impossible for any monetary compensation to atone entirely for incapacity for life, but I imagine that the object of the Government in providing disability pensions was to mitigate to some extent the hardships that inevitably have to be endured by a man who received wounds that left such a serious after-effect.
If that is the object of a disability pension, it is difficult to see how the Government can claim that half such a pension should be used to save Government funds—that is to say, to pay for the supplementary allowance of an old age pensioner. In the case of a son-in-law with a disability pension living in the house of a man of sixty-five, it is extremely hard that this man, however great may be his devotion to his wife's relatives, should have to sacrifice half of his pension in order to maintain the old man. I think everyone would agree that the special obligations to these men are different from the obligations to those who have sustained injury or who have fallen sick in ordinary civilian employment. That is why I venture to draw attention to this particular provision. In addition, do not let us forget that this provision will actually hit hardest the completely disabled man. He would pay a greater pro-

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portion of his pension by way of supplement to whatever the old man would be receiving. The maximum disability pension is £2 a week, and is payable in the cases in which a man has been completely incapacitated. The ex-Service man receiving £2 a week might have to pay half of that, if there were no other means available, towards the support of his aged relative. At any rate the Board would only be obliged to ignore £1 of his pension.
Just a word or two on the second part of the Amendment, relating to payments made under Workmen's Compensation Acts. The object of these payments is to compensate a workman who has sustained an accident in the course of his calling for the wages that he has thereby lost. It is therefore again, I think, rather hard that as much as half of any compensation he is receiving can be taken off an old age pensioner living under the same roof. There is also a certain lack of logic between the provision in the Bill regarding disability pensions and the provision regarding payments under the Workmen's Compensation Acts. One pound a week of a disability pension must be ignored, but only half of a payment of compensation under the Act. The maximum compensation for a case of complete disablement is 30s. a week, so the maximum that can be ignored in that case is 15s. a week. Therefore the man who has suffered an industrial accident or is completely laid up with silicosis—to take a concrete example—would only have 15s. a week of his payment ignored, whereas the war pensioner would get 5s. a week. I am not complaining at all; I am merely pointing out a certain lack of logic in the Government's provisions.
I suggest that a more generous treatment of these two types of cases would not mean any heavy additional cost to the Exchequer. The cases in which an ex-Service man or a man receiving compensation under one of the Workmen's Compensation Acts would be living in the same house as an old age pensioner must be comparatively rare. It would therefore not involve the Government in any heavy additional expenditure—much less heavy additional expenditure, of course, than the removal of the household means test—if they were to behave with rather more generosity in these cases. I am not expecting for a moment—my hopes do not rise so high—that the Government could
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go the whole way. I suggest, however, that, as they made a concession in another place about the recent figure being ignored in cases of superannuation payment, they might also make a concession in this place on the amount that can be ignored out of war pensions and out of workmen's compensation payments. If war pensions were raised from, say, £1 to 30s., or compensation payments were raised by 50 to 75 per cent., that would go a very long way to meet the case, and would, I am perfectly certain, meet with a great deal of favourable comment in all Parties and in all parts of the country. I beg to move, and I very much hope that the Government may give at any rate part of what we are asking for.
Amendment moved—
Page 20, line 32, at end insert the said new paragraphs.—(The Earl of Listowel.)
4.36 p.m.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: I very greatly regret that I cannot accept the Amendment that the noble Earl opposite has put with such persuasiveness and moderation. I would put two considerations to your Lordships. The first is that this Bill is not designed to enable a harsh and overbearing bureaucracy to depress still further the standard of living of the aged poor. It is designed expressly to enable the Board to take a rather more generous line than the law has made possible in the past, and to relieve those grievances and that sense of hardship which have been felt by a certain section of the old age pensioners. The other consideration is that the operative word in this proposal is not "may" but "shall." I think that we should all take the view that we should like to see the man who is suffering from disablement as a result of service in the war, or of some industrial disaster which has overtaken him, rather better off than the general run of pensioners. He has his hardships to bear, he has in many cases special expenses, and I think we should all agree in wanting to see him receive rather special treatment. To that end it is provided that in assessing the need for a supplementary pension of people in these categories—wounded or disabled men—the Board not "may" but "shall" have it laid upon them as an absolute duty to ignore the first 20s. of a military pension and the first 15s. of a workmen's compensation grant.

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The Amendment on the Paper—the noble Earl suggested a modification, but I am afraid I am not able to accept even that—would lay on the Assistance Board the duty of ignoring a very much larger sum, and might in some cases lead to almost absurd results. The maximum military pension is 40s. for a private and up to 60s. for certain non-commissioned officers. The Board are also bound by law to ignore the 10s. of the ordinary old age pension. That is the man's pension as of right; he has earned that by his contribution, and that again, in assessing his needs, the Board may not take into account. So, if this Amendment were to be accepted, you might have a position in which the Board would not be given discretion in certain cases of need but would be compelled to ignore altogether the fact that a man was in possession of an income of 70s. a week, and be compelled to grant him a supplementary pension on exactly the same scale as his neighbour next door who might have no means of any kind whatever. Your Lordships would agree that that is not a sensible proposition nor a proper use of public money.
The case of workmen's compensation payment is not quite so strong. For one thing, the maximum pension is less, but it also affects a very much more limited number of cases, because the very large majority of these workmen's compensation payments are commuted within a year or two of the injury. The number of old age pensioners in receipt of workmen's compensation payment is therefore relatively small. Even if the payment is at the maximum rate of 30s. a week the reduction of this to one half, or 15s. a week, leaves a margin of at the most 4s. over the additional amount allowed by the regulations, and I am advised that the lot of these people would not be materially improved by the Amendment. If real need exists, the Board have the power now. The same kind of consideration arises in the case of the charitable grants to which my noble friend Lord Balfour of Burleigh referred on the Second Reading, and into which I promised to go. I am advised that in practice the first few shillings of these charitable grants would in effect be ignored by the Board, but my right honourable friend is very unwilling to impose a statutory injunction on the Board to ignore these
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various grants, because the cumulative effect might produce the kind of result to which I referred in the case of the disable non-commissioned officer who was already drawing an income of 70s. a week which the Board would be compelled to treat as though it did not exist at all.
There is one other consideration which I should put before your Lordships—namely, that this matter was discussed at length when the Unemployment Assistance Act, 1934, was under discussion. At that time the only amount of the ex-Service-men's disablement pension which was ignored was 4s. and this was, I think very reasonably, felt to be a grievance by the ex-Service-men. Representations were made, and their organisations asked that 16s. of the pension might be ignored. The Government decided to go rather further and to lay on the Board the statutory duty of ignoring the first 20s. and that has been, I think, very satisfactory to the ex-Service-men's organisations. It is noteworthy that no request of any kind and no movement has been made by the ex-Service-men's organisations for any increase of this figure of 20s. For those reasons, I feel bound to reject the Amendment and I hope that your Lordships will agree that to accept it as it stands would in many ways place the Board in a position which would not be a tolerable one.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I draw some comfort from the refusal of the noble Duke to accept this Amendment, because of the evident concern for the welfare of the war pensioner and the victim of an industrial accident. I hope that his words will be very seriously considered by all those who have the task of administering this Bill when it passes into law. As the noble Duke pointed out, the Assistance Board can, if it wishes to do so, ignore a larger figure than the figure mentioned in the Bill. I think that the moving of this Amendment, if it makes the administration of the Bill a little more kindly, will not have been without some effect. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
4.44 p.m.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: The next Amendment in my name is purely a matter of drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 21, line 34, column 2, leave out from ("as if") to ("for") in line 38.—(The Duke of Devonshire.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: The next Amendment is consequential.
Amendment moved—
Page 25, line 18, leave out from the beginning to the end of line 21.—(The Duke of Devonshire.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: The next Amendment is also consequential.
Amendment moved—
Page 25, line 31, leave out from ("person") to ("after") in line 34.—(The Duke of Devonshire.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: The next Amendment is also consequential.
Amendment moved—
Page 26, line 26, leave out from the beginning to the end of line 29.—(The Duke of Devonshire.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE moved, in sub-paragraph (ii) of the proviso in paragraph (1), to leave out "otherwise than in money." The noble Duke said: This Amendment is the result of representations which have been made on behalf of certain local authorities in Scotland, where it is customary to give outdoor relief in cash. The effect will be to enable local authorities in Scotland to
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give relief in cash in urgent cases and to obtain repayment of the expenditure so incurred. This Amendment is the result of the representations to which I have referred and also of a pledge which my right honourable friend gave in the Committee stage in another place. He has now been able to meet the views of honourable members who put the case on behalf of the Scottish authorities.
Amendment moved—
Page 26, line 31, leave out ("otherwise than in money").—(The Duke of Devonshire.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: The next Amendment is consequential.
Amendment moved—
Page 26, line 39, leave out from ("person") to ("after") in line 42.—(The Duke of Devonshire.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: The last Amendment is also consequential.
Amendment moved—
Page 27, line 7, leave out ("otherwise than in money").—(The Duke of Devonshire.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Second Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
House adjourned at thirteen minutes before five o'clock.