Lords Sitting of 7 March 1940

Preamble
The House met at four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
CLEARING OFFICE (TURKEY) AMENDMENT NO. 2 ORDER, 1940.

  CZECHO-SLOVAKIA (SETTLEMENT OF FINANCIAL CLAIMS) ORDER, 1940.
  LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, I beg to move that the Motion standing in my name be approved.
  Moved, That the Special Orders, as reported from the Special Orders Committee on Tuesday last, be approved.—(Lord Templemore.)
  LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, with reference to the second of the Orders, the Czecho-Slovakia (Settlement of Financial Claims) Order, 1940, my noble friends and I have looked into this and we have also had the advantage of consultation with our friends in another place who have taken especial interest in it. This Order is undoubtedly a great improvement on the original scheme, and our opinion is that it is a very fair arrangement all round. But I have been asked to say that we presume that the Government are aware that a great many of these unfortunate refugees, the victims of Nazi robbery and oppression, have been waiting a long time for their money, and that therefore the Government are alive to the need of the machinery working as rapidly as possible. We should like to be reassured that all care will be taken to hasten the settlement, so that these unfortunate people may soon get some of the money which is rightly due to them.
  LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, in reply to the noble Lord I have no hesitation in saying that this matter and the unfortunate plight of these people are fully present to the minds of the Government, and that care will be taken that the machinery is put into operation as soon as it can be done.
  LORD STRABOLGI: Thank you.
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932:
URBAN DISTRICT OF CIREN-CESTER ORDER.
COUNTY BOROUGH OF HASTINGS ORDER.
CITY OF PLYMOUTH ORDER.
BOROUGH OF YEOVIL ORDER.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (THE MARQUESS OF DUFFERIN AND AVA): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That the Orders made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department under the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, and laid before the House on the 27th of February last, be approved.—(The Marquess of Dufferin and Ava.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932:
  BOROUGH OF CLEETHORPES ORDER.

    BOROUGH OF LOWESTOFT ORDER.
    THE MARQUESS OF DUFFERIN AND AVA: My Lords, I beg to move that these Orders be approved.
    Moved, That the Orders made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department under the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, and laid before the House on Tuesday last, be approved.—(The Marquess of Dufferin and Ava.)
    On Question, Motion agreed to.

DUMBARTON BURGH ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA AND BURMA (THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND): My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be read a third time. Perhaps I can save your Lordships' time if I explain that, with four exceptions, the whole of the Amendments to this and the two following Bills which stand in my name are purely drafting. The only Amendments which are not drafting are one
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Amendment to the Schedule to the Dumbarton Bill, two Amendments to the Schedule to the second Bill, and one Amendment to the Schedule of the third Bill, the purpose of which I will explain when we come to it.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(The Marquess of Zetland.)
On Question, Bill read 3a.
Preamble:
Whereas the Provisional Order set forth in the Schedule hereunto annexed has been made by the Secretary of Slate under the provisions of the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1936, and it is requisite that the said Order should be confirmed by Parliament:
THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND: My Lords, I beg to move the first Amendment which stands in my name.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 1, leave out the first ("the") and insert ("a").—(The Marquess of Zetland.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND: My Lords, there are two more Amendments on the Preamble. I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Page 1, lines 1 and 2, leave out ("set forth in the Schedule hereunto annexed") and insert ("relating to Dumbarton Burgh")
line 5, leave out ("requisite") and insert ("expedient"); after ("should") insert ("subject to amendment").—(The Marquess of Zetland.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 1:
Confirmation of Order in Schedule.
1. The Provisional Order contained in the Schedule hereunto annexed is hereby confirmed.
THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND: My Lords, I beg to move the Amendment to this clause which appears on the Paper.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 12, leave out ("contained") and insert ("so made which as amended is set forth").—(The Marquess of Zetland.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Schedule:

SCHEDULE.

  DUMBARTON BURGH.
  Provisional Order to extend the boundaries of the burgh of Dumbarton to make provision with respect to the local government and health of the burgh and for other purposes.
  THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND moved to add the following new clause to Part IV of the Schedule:
  Saving for emergency restrictions on borrowing.
  ".Nothing in this Order shall enable any power of borrowing to be exercised or any issue of capital to be made without compliance with the requirements of any Regulation for the time being in operation under the Emergency Powers (Defence) Act 1939, or any Order made under such Regulation."
  The noble Marquess said: My Lords, the purpose of this addition to the Schedule is to make it clear that the exercise of the borrowing powers which are conferred by the Order for various purposes will be subject to the consent of the Secretary of State for Scotland, the Minister of Transport, and the Treasury under the Regulations which control borrowing and the issue of capital in the interest of the national finances. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 26, line 4, after line 4 insert the said new clause.—(The Marquess of Zetland.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Bill passed, and returned to Commons.

GLASGOW WATER AND TRAMWAYS ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(The Marquess of Zetland.)
On Question, Bill read 3a.
Preamble:
Whereas the Provisional Order set forth in the schedule hereunto annexed has after inquiry held before Commissioners been made by the Secretary of Slate under the provisions of the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1936, and it is requisite that the said Order should be confirmed by Parliament:
THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND: My Lords, I beg to move the first Amendment which stands in my name.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 1, leave out the first ("the") and insert ("a").—(The Marquess of Zetland.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND: My Lords, I beg to move the next Amendment on the Paper.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, lines 1 and 2, leave out ("set forth in the Schedule hereunto annexed") and insert ("relating to Glasgow Water and Tramways").—(The Marquess of Zetland.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND: My Lords, I beg to move that the Amendment in line 5 be made.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 5, leave out ("requisite") and insert ("expedient").—(The Marquess of Zetland.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND: My Lords, I beg to move the next Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 6, after ("should") insert ("subject to amendment").—(The Marquess of Zetland.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 1:
Confirmation of Order in schedule.
1. The Provisional Order contained in the Schedule hereunto annexed is hereby confirmed.
THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND: My Lords, I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 12, leave out ("contained") and insert ("so made which as amended is set forth.").—(The Marquess of Zetland.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Schedule:

SCHEDULE.
  GLASGOW WATER AND TRAMWAYS.
  Provisional Order to authorise the Corporation of the City of Glasgow to construct water-works and tramways and to borrow money for their water and tramway undertakings and to confer further powers on the Corporation with respect to those undertakings and for other purposes.
PART V. Miscellaneous.

  Crown rights.
  51. Nothing in this Order shall affect prejudicially any estate right power privilege or exemption of the Crown or shall subject to the provisions of this Order any land buildings or works vested in or occupied by the Crown or any department of His Majesty' s Government except to such extent as His Majesty or such department may voluntarily agree and in particular nothing herein contained shall authorise the Corporation to take use or in any manner interfere with any portion of the shore or bed of the sea or of any

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  river channel creek bay or estuary or any land heritages subjects or rights of whatsoever description belonging to His Majesty in right of His Crown and under the management of the Commissioners of Crown Lands or of the Board of Trade respectively without the consent in writing of the Commissioners of Crown Lands or the Board of Trade as the case may be on behalf of His Majesty first had and obtained for that purpose.
  THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND moved to add the following new clause to Part V of the schedule:
  Saving for emergency restrictions on borrowing.
  ".Nothing in this Order shall enable any power of borrowing to be exercised or any issue of capital to be made without compliance with the requirements of any Regulation for the time being in operation under the Emergency Powers (Defence) Act, 1939, or any Order made under such Regulation."
  The noble Marquess said: My Lords, I beg to move the first Amendment to the Schedule, the purpose of which is identical with the purpose which I have already explained in the case of the previous Bill.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 44, line 9, after line 9 insert the following new clause:—
  ("Nothing in this Order shall enable any power of borrowing to be exercised or any issue of capital to be made without compliance with the requirements of any Regulation for the time being in operation under the Emergency Powers (Defence) Act, 1939, or any Order made under such Regulation.")—[The Marquess of Zetland.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND moved, in paragraph 51 of the Schedule, to leave out the words "Board of Trade" where those words occur for the first time, and to insert the words "Minister of Shipping." The noble Marquess said: My Lords, in this Bill there is one additional Amendment to the Schedule which is not purely drafting. Its purpose is to make clear that during the war the functions of the Board of Trade, which in relation to the foreshore and tidal lands are transferred to the Ministry of Shipping, should be subject to the control of the Minister of Shipping instead of the President of the Board of Trade. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 44, line 23, leave out ("Board of Trade") and insert ("Minister of Shipping").—(The Marquess of Zetland.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND: My Lords, I beg to move a consequential Amendment.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 44, line 25, leave out ("Board of Trade") and insert ("Minister of Shipping").—(The Marquess of Zetland.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.

ABERDEEN CORPORATION (ADMINISTRATION FINANCE ETC.) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND: My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(The Marquess of Zetland.)
On Question, Bill read 3a.
THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND: My Lords, I do not know whether it would be in order if I now moved the Amendments to this Bill en bloc. They are for the same purpose as the Amendments to the two previous Bills.
Amendments moved—
Preamble, page 1, line 1, leave out the first ("the") and insert ("a")
Preamble, page 1, lines 1 and 2, leave out ("set forth in the Schedule hereunto annexed") and insert ("relating to Aberdeen Corporation (Administration Finance and other matters)")
Preamble, page 1, line 5, leave out ("requisite") and insert ("expedient")
Preamble, page 1, line 6, after ("should") insert ("subject to amendment")
Clause 1, page 1, line 12, leave out ("contained") and insert ("so made which as amended is set forth")
In the Schedule, page 67, line 9, after line 9, insert the following new clause:
(".Nothing in this Order shall enable any power of borrowing to be exercised or any issue of capital to be made without compliance with the requirements of any Regulation for the time being in operation under the Emergency Powers (Defence) Act, 1939, or any Order made under such Regulation.").—(The Marquess of Zetland.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.
4.10 p.m.

AGRICULTURE (MISCELLANEOUS WAR PROVISIONS) BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Denham.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[The EARL OF ONSLOW in the Chair.]
Clauses 1 to 13 agreed to.
Clause 14:
Drainage of outlying land.
"14.—(1) Where the War Agricultural Executive Committee for a county or a county borough consider that any agricultural land within the county or borough, but not within any drainage district other than a catchment area, is capable of improvement by the execution of drainage works, they may request the catchment board for any catchment area wholly or partly within the county or borough to prepare and carry out a scheme for draining the land.
(2) After receiving such a request as respects any land, the catchment board may prepare a scheme for draining the land, if they are of pinion—

(a) that the cost of preparing and carrying out the scheme will not exceed an amount equal to five pounds for each acre of the land; and

(b) that the value of the land will be increased in consequence of the carrying out of the scheme:

Provided that…"
LORD PHILLIMORE LORD PHILLIMORE moved, in sub-section (2) (b), after "land" to insert "for agricultural purposes". The noble Lord said: In the absence of my noble friend Lord Bledisloe, I beg to move the Amendment standing in his name. The Amendment is quite simple, and merely seeks to add the words "for agricultural purposes" as a definition of the land which is to be treated under this Bill; otherwise you may have very valuable building land included, and that, I imagine, would not be the intention of the Bill. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 9, line 31, after ("land") insert ("for agricultural purposes").—(Lord Phillimore.)
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (LORD DENHAM): The Government are quite prepared to accept this Amendment, and I would advise your Lordships that it is perhaps an improvement on the Bill.
LORD ADDISON: Would the noble Lord give a further explanation of the reason for accepting the Amendment? It appears to me to have rather a limiting effect.
LORD DENHAM: The object of this Amendment, I think, is to ensure that catchment boards do not spend money on the draining of land which is not going to be used for the production of food. I think it is clear that that is the object of the Amendment. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Addison, if he is of opinion that this is probably already implied in the clause, because it is only where a county war agricultural executive committee consider that agricultural land is capable of improvement that they can request the catchment board to do anything. On the other hand, if the noble Viscount who put down this Amendment thought that it improved the phraseology, I felt that there was no harm in making it, and that it would make the wording more clear than it otherwise was. With that explanation, I hope that the noble Lord will agree that we should add those words to the Bill.
LORD ADDISON: On general principles, one objects to inserting words which appear to limit the intention, because the whole thing is conditioned by the use of the land as recommended by the county war agricultural executive committee for these purposes, and for no others. However, I accept the noble Lord's explanation.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD DENHAM LORD DENHAM moved, in subsection (4) (a), to leave out "it has" and insert "they have". The noble Lord said: This is a purely drafting Amendment to correct the grammar of the Bill.
Amendment moved—
Page 10, line 16, leave out ("it has") and insert ("they have").—(Lord Denham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD DENHAM LORD DENHAM had an Amendment on the Paper, after subsection (5), to insert the following new subsection:
"(6) Where, on the termination of the tenancy of a holding within the meaning of the Agricultural Holdings Act, 1923, in respect of which any sum has been paid or is payable to a catchment board by virtue of a scheme under this section, the landlord proves to the satisfaction of an arbitrator appointed under that Act that any works executed in pursuance of the scheme were rendered necessary by the neglect of the tenant to comply with any obligation relating to the maintenance or repair of a watercourse imposed on him by virtue of the contract of tenancy, the arbitrator shall award to the landlord a sum

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equal to so much of the net cost of the scheme as was attributable to the execution of those works.
For the purpose of any arbitration under this subsection, a certificate by the catchment board that such part of the net cost of the scheme as may be specified in the certificate was attributable to the execution of works so specified shall be conclusive evidence of that fact."
THE LORD CHAIRMAN: An alteration is to be made in this Amendment, to leave out the words "a sum" in line 12 of the Amendment and to insert the word "compensation"; and the Amendment will be moved in that form. A proviso is also to be added at the end of the first paragraph of the Amendment:
"Provided that where any agreement is made between the landlord and the tenant of such a holding as aforesaid for the payment by the tenant of any contribution in respect of the sum paid or payable as aforesaid, that contribution shall be recoverable from the tenant in lieu of compensation under this subsection."
LORD DENHAM: This is rather an important matter, and I should like to give a short explanation about it. The purpose of this Amendment is to meet in some part an Amendment which was moved in another place. In another place it was pointed out, with some force, that in many cases, and perhaps in most, it was the tenant who really ought to be liable and was liable to clean out his ditches, and who ought to have done so by the terms of the tenancy agreement; hence it was argued in another place that it was scarcely fair to expect the landlord and the State to pay between them the whole of the drainage cost. The Government in another place promised to look into the matter, and therefore this Amendment was put down.
The effect of the Amendment as it stood on the Paper this morning would have been this, that where under Clause 14 a catchment board has carried out a drainage scheme, and where the landowner has paid under Clause 14 (4) (b) his 50 per cent. share of the cost, the landlord may recover from the tenant on the termination of the tenancy the net cost of doing the work; that is to say, the balance after the Government grant has been deducted. There is, of course, nothing to prevent a landlord and a tenant coming to an amicable agreement between themselves, and this would always be the preferable course. I have no doubt
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that in the vast majority of cases that will in fact take place; but, since the original words of the Amendment were on the Paper, I have been approached from many quarters and asked to try to make it clear in the Amendment itself that recourse to arbitration should only follow a failure of the parties to agree. I can see considerable force in this argument, and therefore I have ventured to put this other form of words which has been read out before the House, because that does bring emphasis to bear upon the desirability that, wherever possible, the parties themselves, the landlord and the tenant, should come together and should decide between themselves what share the tenant should be called upon to pay of the sum which the landlord has already paid. I beg to move the Amendment in the amended form.
Amendment moved—
Page 21, line 6, at end insert—
("(6) Where, on the termination of the tenancy of a holding within the meaning of the Agricultural Holdings Act, 1923, in respect of which any sum has been paid or is payable to a Catchment Board by virtue of a scheme under this section, the landlord proves to the satisfaction of an arbitrator appointed under that Act that any works executed in pursuance of the scheme were rendered necessary by the neglect of the tenant to comply with any obligation relating to the maintenance or repair of a watercourse imposed on him by virtue of the contract of tenancy, the arbitrator shall award to the landlord compensation equal to so much of the net cost of the scheme as was attributable to the execution of those works.
Provided that where any agreement is made between the landlord and the tenant of such a holding as aforesaid for the payment by the tenant of any contribution in respect of the sum paid or payable as aforesaid, that contribution shall be recoverable from the tenant in lieu of compensation under this subsection.
For the purpose of any arbitration under this subsection, a certificate by the catchment board that such part of the net cost of the scheme as may be specified in the certificate was attributable to the execution of works so specified shall be conclusive evidence of that fact").—(Lord Denham.)
LORD ADDISON: I think that the Amendment of the noble Lord is an improvement, and I thank him for those last words, because they do in fact limit it to cases where an agreement has been entered into, and no one would suggest that where an agreement has been entered into the tenant should not, like anyone else, be called on to fulfil the conditions of the agreement.
LORD PHILLIMORE: I am in a little difficulty. I do not know whether the noble Lord, Lord Addison, has had the advantage of seeing this corrected Amendment in writing, but I have not, nor have my friends behind me, so far as I know. As far as I can judge from what the Minister has said, the points he has made meet with our concurrence; but I should like to reserve a certain liberty in view of the fact that we have not been able to see this altered Amendment in writing before coming into the House. I was led to expect that this Amendment would be withdrawn, and the new Amendment substituted on Report. Being left in that position, I should like to call the Minister's attention to two points which remain unsettled, so far as I can make out, by the Amendment now before your Lordships.
The first of these points relates to the difficulty of assessing—or shall I say allocating?—the expense made on improvements and the expense made on repairs at the termination of tenancy, which termination may not take effect for seven, thirteen, or any number of years after the passing of the Bill. Who is to be able to tell, at that distance of time, what proportion of the work was carried out with a view to improving the watercourse and what proportion of it was carried out with a view to keeping up with the cleansing of the watercourse which the tenant ought, under his contract, to have undertaken and carried out year after year? It seems to me it would be almost impossible to arrive at such allocation unless there is some duty laid on the catchment board to make a division of the expense, at the time when the expense is incurred, between improvements and cleansings. I would therefore ask the Minister to consider that question before the Report stage. I also understood that we were to have an Amendment, which I do not think is covered by the Amendment now brought forward, to the effect that the landlord could repay these sums out of settled moneys. I am not clear as to whether or not that point is covered by the noble Lord's Amendment. Again, if it is not covered, it may be possible to bring it up on Report. I hope we may have some explanation from the noble Lord as to these two points.
LORD DENHAM: Perhaps the best plan would be if all the points raised by my noble friend Lord Philimore were
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carefully considered by me and my Department, and we might go into this matter more fully, perhaps, when the Bill reaches the Report stage in your Lordships' House, more especially because then we shall have the full form of words in the Bill. I feel I ought to apologise to your Lordships for having made this eleventh-hour manuscript Amendment to-day. I only did it to try to meet the many approaches which have been made to me within the last forty-eight hours. Perhaps it would have been better if I had withdrawn this Amendment, which it was in my mind to do, and brought in a new Amendment on Report. But on Report we can reconsider the matter, and I promise the noble Lord that all the points he has raised will be carefully gone into.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 14, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 15 and 16 agreed to.
Clause 17:
Control of sluices.
17.—(1) Where a drainage board are of opinion that it is necessary or expedient so to do for the purpose of preventing or arresting injury to any agricultural land, they may, by notice in writing served on the occupier or person in control of any dam within their district, require him, during such times and in such manner as may be specified in the notice, to keep open or closed any sluice forming part of the dam:
Provided that—

(a) in exercising their powers under this section in relation to any sluice, the board shall have regard to any purpose for which the occupier or person in control of the dam uses or desires to use it or any water thereby impounded and shall so exercise the said powers as to interfere as little as may be practicable with such user;

(b) a drainage board shall not exercise the powers conferred by this section in relation to any sluice which is vested in or controlled by a navigation, harbour or conservancy authority; and

(c)......

4.24 p.m.
LORD DENHAM LORD DENHAM moved, in the proviso to subsection (1), to insert the following paragraph:
"(a) no such notice shall require anything to be done before the expiration of forty-eight hours from the service of the notice unless it is stated in the notice that in the opinion of the board immediate action is necessary to meet an emergency;"
The noble Lord said: We now come to Clause 17. This is a clause which deals

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with the control of sluices. When this Bill was being discussed in Committee in another place, an Amendment was moved with the object of providing that definite notice should be given when an occupier of land is ordered by a board to do something to a sluice in accordance with this clause. An assurance was given in another place that such an Amendment would be moved in your Lordships' House. Accordingly this Amendment is moved, providing for forty-eight hours' notice being given unless it is stated in the notice that in the opinion of the board immediate action is necessary to meet an emergency. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 9, at end, insert the said paragraph.—(Lord Denham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD DENHAM LORD DENHAM moved, in subsection (1) (a), after "dam," to insert "or any other person interested in the water controlled by the sluice." The noble Lord said: This Amendment should be taken in conjunction with the three following Amendments on the Order Paper. In the other House, a series of Amendments was moved with the object of affording protection to various types of water users, and it was pointed out that the clause, as it was then drafted, might affect the water supply of public authorities for the purposes of towns or electricity companies and such like. Again an assurance was given that the matter would be dealt with in your Lordships' House, and these four Amendments do give adequate protection for all persons who feel in need of it. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 13, after ("dam") insert ("or any other person interested in the water controlled by the sluice").—(Lord Denham.)
LORD ADDISON: I sympathise with the purpose of the noble Lord, but I think his words are very wide indeed. I can understand that regard should be had to the interests of local authorities and others, and if it is not clear in the Bill, it should be made clear, but these words will make the Bill read like this:
"In exercising their powers under this section…the board shall have regard to any purpose for which the occupier or person in control of the dam or any other person interested in the water controlled by the sluice.…"
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I can imagine a very large number of persons may contend they are interested in the water controlled by the sluice, and if we are to wait until all these potentially interested parties are dealt with and satisfied in some way or other, it may gravely prejudice the exercise of the powers. The wording is very wide indeed. I do not want in any way whatever to object to the inclusion of the legitimate interests of local authorities and others, but I would ask the noble Lord to have another look at these words and see if he cannot make them more in consonance with his own explanation and rather less wide.
LORD PHILLIMORE: AS far as those who support me on this side of the House are concerned, we are fully content with the Amendment as moved, and I should like to point out to the noble Lord, Lord Addison, that, although perhaps unfortunate, it is inevitable that there should be in many cases more than one person or set of persons interested in the regulation of the water. There are, for instance, the fishing people, who have large and very important rights, and the sluice which affects the fishing may affect electric power being provided for some small, possibly private, plant. It may affect a flour mill or some interest quite dissimilar from fishing, but at the same time of considerable importance. Therefore I do not see how we can very well escape enlarging the wording of the clause to cover those persons without inflicting an injustice, which I am sure the noble Lord would not desire to inflict.
LORD DENHAM: Any criticism made by the noble Lord, Lord Addison, with his long and vast experience of these matters will be treated with the greatest seriousness, not only by myself but by my Department. I can promise the noble Lord again that before the Report stage we shall once more go over these words and see whether they are too wide. I should like to say that it was only after the most prolonged discussion and consultation that this form or words was devised. Nevertheless, we shall go into it, and see whether there is anything in the contention the noble Lord has brought forward.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD DENHAM: The next Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line: 14, leave out from ("use") to ("and") in line 15 and insert ("the water so controlled").—(Lord Denham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD DENHAM: The next Amendments also are consequential, I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Page 13, line 20, after ("by") insert ("a local authority or")
Page 13, line 22, after ("authority") insert ("or any undertakers authorised by under any enactment to supply water electricity.")—(Lord Denham.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 17, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 18 to 22 agreed to.
Clause 23:
Provisions as to requisitioned land.
(5) When possession of the land is given up, the owner thereof shall be liable to pay to the Minister on demand a sum equal to so much of the value of the land as is attributable to anything done on the land either—

(a) by the Minister or the Committee; or

(b) in a case where such a contract as aforesaid has been made, by the person occupying the land by virtue of the contract;

for the purpose of enabling the land to be properly farmed, or of securing increased efficiency in the farming of the land:
Provided that an owner by whom any sum is so payable may by notice in writing served on the Minister within one month after the date of a demand in writing by the Minister for the payment thereof elect to pay the said sum, together with interest thereon from the said date, by such number of equal annual instalments not exceeding five as may be specified in the notice, so, however that—

(i) the first such instalment shall be paid within one year from the said date; and

(ii) the rate of interest shall, in default of agreement between the owner and the Minister be fixed by the Treasury.

LORD DENHAM LORD DENHAM moved, in subsection (5), to leave out "on demand" and insert "within one month after the date of a demand made in writing by the Minister." The noble Lord said: This is the first of three drafting Amendments to bring the words of this subsection into line with the wording of subsection (4) of Clause 14. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 17, lines 2 and 3, leave out ("on demand") and insert ("within one month after
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the date of a demand made in writing by the Minister").—(Lord Denham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD DENHAM: The next two Amendments are drafting. I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Page 17, line 14, after ("within") insert ("the said").
Page 17, line 14, leave out from ("month") to ("elect") in line 15.—(Lord Denham.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
LORD ADDISON: I should be glad if the noble Lord will answer me a question which I have been asked to put to him specifically on this clause. I feel sure he will give me a satisfactory answer, but I am putting the question in order Hint his answer may be on record. In the case of the land dealt with here—land of which possession has been taken for the purposes of food production, etc.—the Minister or the committee can take possession of the land, or they can make a contract with a person for the occupation of the land. As a matter of fact this land—which will be largely disused land bought often for building purposes and such-like things, but the development of which has been held up owing to the war—is now very often either neglected or let on a grazing tenancy, and no tenant under these terms could be expected to incur the necessary expenditure which cultivation requires. The period of the occupation provided in the Bill, which I think we are indebted to the Ministry for, is to enable the tenant to, shall I say reap where he has sown? and give a sufficient length of tenure to enable him to do so; but in this case, where the Minister has taken possession of the land or a committee have done so in his name, they may remain in possession for the period in question: The question I want to ask is this. Is it quite clear that a person with whom a contract has been made will be enabled to continue in possession for the period, because in the vast majority of cases what will happen is this? The committee will not undertake to cultivate the land themselves, but they will find a neighbouring farmer, a competent person, who will do so, and they will make a contract with him for the purpose. He should be entitled to remain in possession for the requisite period, because he will have spent his money and done work and the

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committee will have entered into a contract with him. I want an assurance from the noble Lord that the governing words of subsection (7) "the Minister or the committee may", etc., and those, again, in subsection (4), do not in any way limit the right of the person with whom the Minister or the committee has made a contract to remain in possession for the requisite period.
LORD DENHAM: I quite understand the case the noble Lord refers to, and I think I can give him without reservation the assurance for which he asks.
Clause 23, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 24 agreed to.
Clause 25:
Expenses of Minister in providing goods and services required for agriculture.
25. If, at any time before the end of the war period, arrangements are made by the Minister with the consent of the Treasury, with a view to increasing the production of food in the United Kingdom or any part thereof, for providing goods or services to persons requiring them for agricultural purposes, any expenses incurred by the Minister in connection with the provision of goods or services in accordance with the arrangements shall be defrayed out of moneys provided by Parliament.
LORD DENHAM LORD DENHAM moved to add the following new subsection:
"(2) Particulars of any such arrangements shall be laid before Parliament by the Minister as soon as may be after they are made."
The noble Lord said: We now come to a subject which occupied some time in the discussion in your Lordships' House on Second Reading, and in Committee in another place. The point was made that it would be desirable that particulars of the arrangements contemplated under Clause 25 should be laid before Parliament, and an assurance was given that an Amendment to that effect would be inserted in this House. The Amendment which I now move is to carry out that pledge.
Amendment moved—
Page 18, line 23, at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Denham.)
LORD STRABOLGI: When the subsection says that particulars of such arrangements shall be laid before Parliament does that mean that they have to be passed by both Houses?
LORD DENHAM: No, I understand that is not so. If the noble Lord asks me
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whether particulars of every assistance scheme that comes under the ægis or ambit of Clause 25 has to be laid before Parliament, my reply is, that is not so. The promise made was that a typical scheme of what is to be done under Clause 25 shall be laid on the Table of this House and on the Table in another place, and that promise is being fulfilled by this Amendment.
LORD ADDISON: I would like to put in a plea to the noble Lord. I know what is in contemplation here, but I do hope that in drafting these conditions the Minister of Agriculture will be No. 1, and not the Treasury. If we are going to be enabled to give real help to men who need help and who deserve help in the interests of food production under this clause, it cannot possibly be done if we are going to be flint-hearted or close-fisted. If that is the case you will not get anybody to help. The man who can pass through the mesh which I can quite imagine the Treasury could readily weave could get plenty of help already from a bank or elsewhere. The people we want to help are the men who are really hard up and need help. I know the Ministry is well aware of this. I am only entering a plea that the Minister will, to put it in popular language, keep his end up when these regulations are framed, so that they will be really effective and not be a dead letter.
LORD DENHAM: I think the words actually used by my right honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture in his Third Reading speech in another place, to which the noble Lord might well refer, completely meet the point he has raised. I would like, in addition, to assure him that the Ministry of Agriculture really mean to make this clause function and to make it a success. I would like to tell him one other thing, and that is that even now we are having very good evidence at the Ministry of Agriculture that this clause is going to be utilised and is going to be a very great success as far as we can judge at present.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 25, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 26:
Exclusion of certain holdings from Agricultural Holdings Act.
26. Nothing in the Agricultural Holdings Act, 1923, shall apply to a contract of tenancy of land for a term not exceeding four years

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beginning after the commencement of this Act and before the end of the war period, if—

(a) the contract of tenancy provides for the cultivation of the land as arable land and, in a case where immediately before the beginning of the said term the land consisted of permanent pasture, for the sowing by the tenant of permanent grass seeds along with the last or waygoing crop; and

(b) immediately before the commencement of this Act either—

(i) the land was not being used for agricultural purposes; or

(ii) the land was being so used in pursuance of a letting not being a contract of tenancy within the meaning of the said Act.

4.40 p.m.
LORD DENHAM LORD DENHAM moved, in paragraph (b), after "Act" where that word first occurs, to insert "and thereafter until the beginning of the said term." The noble Lord said: This Amendment should be read in conjunction with the next two Amendments. The matter is a little complicated, but I think I can give an explanation which will make it fairly simple. Clause 26, which is sought to be modified by this Amendment, follows on similar provisions which were contained in Section 12 (7) (f) of both the English and Scottish Agricultural Holdings Acts of 1923. The clause provides that in three classes of cases which are specified in paragraphs (a) and (b), the provisions of the Agricultural Holdings Act, 1923, shall not apply to a contract of tenancy of the land for a term not exceeding four years from the commencement of the Act and before the end of the war period.
I would call special attention to the words "commencement of this Act." The necessity for this provision is that a tenancy under the Agricultural Holdings Act, 1923, can only be determined by twelve months' notice to quit and, except in certain cases, on payment by the landowner of compensation for disturbance. There are, particularly in the North of England, and in Scotland, lands which are let to farmers for grazing only and since some of the provisions of the Agricultural Holdings Act are not appropriate to such lettings it is customary, as some of your Lordships may know, for the lands to be let on 364 day tenancies or shorter periods, and they do not therefore come within the Act. The owners of these lands have no objection to their being used for ordinary arable production in time of war in order to make their contribution to the
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food production campaign, provided that, at the end of the war, the tenant agrees to sow the land down to grass with the last waygoing crop and that the owner does not render himself liable for compensation for disturbance. Paragraph (b) of the clause deals with a different type of case, when the owner has purchased or owns agricultural land with a view to developing it for building purposes. In order to do so he may have got rid of the existing tenant by giving him notice to quit and by paying him compensation for disturbance. Pending the development of the land, however, he is in the habit of letting the land on 364-day tenancies or shorter periods which are outside the Agricultural Holdings Act, and in this way avoids having to give another twelve months' notice to quit when he requires the land for development, and also avoids having to pay further compensation for disturbance.
When the clause was discussed in Committee in another place, two defects—glaring defects really—were pointed out. The first defect is that the clause as drafted only applies to certain tenancies beginning after the commencement of the Act. In many cases, particularly in Scotland, we know landlords and tenants have already entered into contracts in anticipation of legislation of the kind being introduced, and accordingly it is proposed by this and following Amendments that the provisions of the clause which I have explained shall be made retrospective to the date of the commencement of the war and applicable to any case where the landlord satisfies an arbitrator that the contract of tenancy would otherwise have come within the provisions of this clause. The second defect pointed out was that, whereas the clause applies when an owner of land had been in the habit of letting it for grazing, it does not apply as at present drafted when an owner had himself occupied and grazed the land. The second Amendment puts that right. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 6, after ("Act") insert ("and thereafter until the beginning of the said term").—(Lord Denham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD DENHAM: The next Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 11, at end, insert—
("or
(iii) the land consisted of permanent pasture and was occupied by the landlord").—(Lord Denham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD DENHAM: The next Amendment is also consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 11, at end, insert—
("(2) Where, as respects any contract of tenancy made before the commencement of this Act and after the second day of September, nineteen hundred and thirty-nine, the landlord satisfies an arbitrator appointed under the Agricultural Holdings Act, 1923—

(a) that that Act would not apply to the contract by virtue of subsection (1) of this section if references to the said second day of September were substituted in that subsection for references to the commencement of this Act; and

(b) that the parties to the contract intended, notwithstanding anything in that Act, that that Act or any provision thereof should not apply to the contract;

then that Act or that provision thereof, as the case may be, shall not apply to the contract of tenancy.").—(Lord Denham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 26, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 27:
Extension of land fertility scheme to gardens.
27.—(1) Any land wholly or mainly cultivated for the production of vegetables or fruit shall, notwithstanding that it is not included in the definition of "agricultural land" contained in Section thirty-two of the Agriculture Act, 1937, be deemed to be agricultural land for the purpose of the following provisions of that Act, namely—

(a) Part I of that Act (which provides for contributions out of moneys provided by Parliament towards the cost incurred by occupiers of agricultural land in acquiring lime or basic slag); and

(b) paragraph (a) of subsection (1) of Section twenty-nine of that Act (which provides for the inspection of any agricultural land in respect of which such a contribution has been applied for or made);

and accordingly paragraph (e) of subsection (1) of Section three of the said Act (which enables certain associations to be treated as if they were occupiers of agricultural land) shall have effect as if associations of occupiers of any land so cultivated were included among the associations mentioned in that paragraph.
4.47 p.m.
LORD PHILLIMORE LORD PHILLIMORE moved, in subsection (1), after "Any land," to insert
792
"being a garden or allotment and." The noble Lord said: I beg to move this Amendment on behalf of my noble friend Viscount Bledisloe. It may be that there is an explanation why cottage gardens are not separately dealt with. In any case I should like to take this opportunity of thanking the Minister and the Government for at last including cottage gardens in the scope of the Land Fertility Scheme. It is an inclusion for which my noble friends and I, and I think also the noble Lord opposite, have often pressed, and we are really grateful for it. I will reserve my decision as to whether I should press this Amendment until I have heard from the noble Lord whether there is any specific reason for cottage gardens not being included.
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 12, after ("land") insert ("being a garden or allotment and").—(Lord Phillimore.)
LORD DENHAM: I think I can give your Lordships an explanation which you will regard as satisfactory. I submit that this Amendment is quite unnecessary. The object of it is to extend to cottage gardens the type of land in respect of which grants may be paid under Section 1 of the Agriculture Act of 1937, so as to enable cottage gardeners to have the same facilities as are offered to allotment holders in respect of lime and basic slag. May I read the definition of "agricultural land" in Section 32 of the Agriculture Act, 1937? It is as follows:
"'Agricultural land' means any land used as arable meadow or pasture ground, or for the purpose of poultry farming, market gardens, nursery grounds, orchards, or allotments, including allotment gardens within the meaning of the Allotments Act, 1922."
Therefore, my Lords, I would submit that the word "allotment" in the Amendment is quite unnecessary. As to the proposed insertion of the word "garden," that word is not denned for the very good reason that it is almost impossible to define a garden. I am advised that the word "garden" is never used alone in any Statute. It is always qualified in some way. A tennis court is often part of a garden, but it is not that part of a garden with which we are concerned this afternoon. It is better to deal with gardens in terms of user, and the words "any land wholly or mainly cultivated for the production

793
of vegetables or fruit" are used so as to include gardens, and above all little gardens, because big gardens are already included in the definition. For these reasons I hope your Lordships will think the proposed words are unnecessary and will not accept the proposed Amendment.
LORD ADDISON: I rise to express the the hope that, as it has now been laid down that the benefit of cheap lime and basic slag will be made available for small cultivators, the Ministry will bear in mind the necessary accompaniment of this provision: to make sure as far as they humanly can that the allotment-holders will be able to get the basic slag.
LORD DENHAM: I can assure the noble Lord that that point has not escaped the notice of my right honourable, friend and the Ministry.
LORD PHILLIMORE: I am much indebted to the noble Lord in charge of the Bill for his explanation, and I feel that my noble friend Lord Bledisloe will in all probability be satisfied with his answer. I beg leave to withdraw.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD PHILLIMORE LORD PHILLIMORE moved, after subsection (1), to add the following new subsection:
"(2) For the purposes of this section, the term 'associations' shall be deemed to include parish councils and other local authorities controlling gardens situate within their administrative areas."—(Lord Phillimore.)
The noble Lord said: This is to some extent consequential on the previous Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 34, at end insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Phillimore.)
LORD DENHAM: My noble friend obviously wishes by this Amendment to extend the list of associations in Section 3 of the Agriculture Act, 1937, to which grants may be made under the Land Fertility Scheme, on the ground that it may be difficult for the owners of gardens within their area to form associations and so bring themselves within the terms of the Scheme. Since the Amendment was put on the Paper I have had the privilege of consulting with my noble friend Lord Cranworth, the Chairman of the Land Fertility Committee, and have ascertained that they are in favour of the extension
794
proposed by the noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe. They think there is a good deal to be said for allowing local authorities, who have power to spend money on buying requisites for allotment holders under Section 21 of the Land Settlement (Facilities) Act, 1919, to function under the Land Fertility Scheme without waiting for individual cultivators to form themselves into special associations for this purpose. Such parish councils, and other authorities, would have to be approved as "approved associations" under the Land Fertility Scheme, but I am informed that there is no difficulty about that and that it can be done very quickly. The Amendment, however, is not in a convenient form: the words are not suitable; so I have put an Amendment down on line 34, and if the noble Lord who moved this Amendment on behalf of the noble Viscount would either move his Amendment in that form or would withdraw his Amendment and let me move the Amendment which I have down on the Paper, I think that all that his Amendment is seeking to do would actually be carried out.
LORD PHILLIMORE: I am much obliged to the noble Lord, and I think it might be best if he moved his Amendment. I therefore beg leave to withdraw mine.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD DENHAM: I beg to move the next Amendment on the Paper.
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 34, at end insert—
"(2) Provision may be made by the Land Fertility Scheme made under the said Part I for enabling any such council as is mentioned in Section twenty-one of the Land Settlement (Facilities) Act, 1919 (which empowers certain councils to purchase fertilisers for resale to the cultivators of allotments) to be treated in such cases as may be provided by the scheme as if they were the occupiers of agricultural land."—(Lord Denham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 27, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 28 to 30 agreed to.
Clause 31:
Application to Scotland.
31. This Act shall apply to Scotland subject to the following modifications—
(1) In this Part of this Act—
(4) For the purpose of determining any appeal to them under Section twenty-nine

795
of this Act or of any question under subsection (6) of Section twenty-three of this Act the Scottish Land Court shall have the like powers as they have under the Small Landholders (Scotland) Acts, 1886 to 1931, for the purpose of the determination of matters referred to the said Court there-under, and those Acts shall apply accordingly subject to any necessary modifications.
LORD DENHAM: The next is a consequential Amendment, and makes what we have already passed applicable to Scotland.
Amendment moved—
Page 24, line 27, at end add—
("(d) for any reference to such a council as is mentioned in Section twenty-one of the Land Settlement (Facilities) Act, 1919, there shall be substituted a reference to a local authority within the meaning of Section twenty-two of the Land Settlement (Scotland) Act, 1919.").—(Lord Denham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD DENHAM: The next Amendment is consequential also.
Amendment moved—
Page 25, line 14, at end insert:
(3)"Section twenty-six of this Act shall have effect as if for any reference in subsection (2) to an arbitrator there were substituted a reference to the Scottish Land Court."—(Lord Denham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD DENHAM: This also is consequential; I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 25, line 17, leave out from ("them") to ("this") in line 19, and insert ("or any question required to be determined by them under").—(Lord Denham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 31, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
Schedules 1 to 4 agreed to.
Fifth Schedule:

FIFTH SCHEDULE.
Provisions as to certain drainage schemes.
2. The Board shall give to the owners of the land comprised in the area of the scheme notice of the making of the draft of the scheme, of the place where it can be inspected and of the time (which shall not be less than twenty-one days from the date of the notice) within which objections thereto may be made to the Board.
3. After considering any objections duly made to the draft of a scheme and making any modifications therein which they think
796
expedient having regard to any such objection, the Board may submit the scheme to the Minister for his approval.
LORD DENHAM LORD DENHAM moved, in paragraph 2, after "owners," to insert "and occupiers." The noble Lord said: The Fifth Schedule here deals with schemes under Clause 14. This Amendment and the next are put on the Paper because of objections which were raised in another place on the one hand, and on the other because of suggestions made by the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, in the Second Reading debate in your Lordships' House. Paragraph 2 requires the Board to give notice to owners of the land comprised in the area of the scheme, and this Amendment provides that, in addition to a notice to the owners, a notice shall also be given to the occupiers.
Amendment moved—
Page 30, line 24, after ("owners") insert ("and occupiers").—(Lord Denham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD DENHAM LORD DENHAM moved, after paragraph 3, to insert:
"4. After considering any such objections which have not been withdrawn and making any modifications in the scheme as submitted to him which he thinks expedient having regard to any such objection, the Minister may approve the scheme.
5. No land shall be included in the area of the scheme as approved by the Minister which was not included in the area of the scheme of which notice was given under paragraph 2 of this Schedule."
The noble Lord said: My noble friend Lord Hastings suggested on the Second Reading debate—and there were also criticisms in another place which said much the same thing—that it is only reasonable that persons who might object to a scheme put forward by the Board under Clause 14 should have the right of having their objections heard by the Minister. On looking into the matter more closely I have come to the conclusion that on the whole this is a very reasonable suggestion, and accordingly I have put down this Amendment in order that the Minister shall be able to consider objections and to make such modifications as he thinks expedient. The second part of the Amendment makes good an undoubted omission from the Bill, and is also a safeguard. The new paragraph 5 is a safeguard in that, where a modification is made by the Minister, he cannot add land to the area of the scheme which

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was not included in the area of the scheme of which notice was given by the catchment board. This seems to be a proper protection which should be inserted in the Bill, and it improves the wording of the Fifth Schedule. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 30, line 33, at end insert the said paragraphs.—(Lord Denham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Fifth Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

SOLICITORS (EMERGENCY PROVISIONS) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Wright.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The EARL OF ONSLOW in the Chair.]
Clause 1 agreed to.
Clause 2:
Power to allow earlier presentation for final examination
2. Notwithstanding anything contained in Section thirty-one of the principal Act, a person who has entered into articles for the required term and has duly served thereunder and complied with the provisions of Part II of that Art applying to him up to the time for his presenting himself for final examination may with the permission of the Council, which they may grant or withhold at their discretion, present himself during the period of the present emergency for final examination at an examination earlier than the one next preceding the expiration of the term of his articles.
LORD WRIGHT LORD WRIGHT moved to add the following new subsection:
(2) This section shall be deemed to have come into operation on the first day of February, nineteen hundred and forty."
The noble and learned Lord said: This Amendment to Clause 2 is intended to meet a difficulty from which the Law Society are at the moment suffering because of a certain delay in getting this Bill through Parliament. Clause 2 enables the Council of the Law Society to relax the terms of the present law as to when articled clerks may present themselves for their final examination. In view of the present emergency, articled clerks are, from time to time, being called up for national service, and the Law Society feel that they ought to be in a position to
798
let them present themselves for examination at an earlier date, before they are called up and go on service. To that I am sure no one would object, but it turns out that the Bill has been delayed in its passage through the House, and at this very moment the Law Society are holding an examination which, unless Clause 2 becomes law, would be out of time and invalid. There are fourteeen candidates, I think, who are affected and who are attempting to pass their examinations before they go on national service. In those circumstances, although a retrospective provision is not generally desirable, I think everyone will agree that this is a proper case in which to make this clause of the Bill retrospective, so that these young men who pass their examination now will not have to present themselves again after the war.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 7, at end insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Wright.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 3:
Power to reckon national service as service under articles in certain cases.
3. The Council at their discretion—
(b) in the case of any person desirous of being admitted as a solicitor who has been engaged in national service before the commencement of his articles may permit the term of service under articles for which Section fifteen of the principal Act requires him to be bound to be reduced by the period of such national service:
Provided that…
LORD WRIGHT LORD WRIGHT moved, in paragraph (b), after "the" ["the period of such national service"], to insert "whole or any part of the". The noble and learned Lord said: This is merely a drafting Amendment and requires no explanation.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 23, after ("the") insert ("whole or any part of the").—(Lord Wright.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 4:
Power to reckon attendance at course of legal instruction as service under articles in certain cases.
4. Where a person before entering into articles of clerkship to a solicitor has attended part of such a course of legal instruction as is mentioned in sub-paragraph (c) of paragraph (7) of the first Schedule to the principal Act but has been unable to complete such course in consequence of the course being suspended owing to the present emergency or in consequence of his being engaged in national service, the Council may at their discretion permit a reduction in the term of service under articles for which Section fifteen of the principal Act requires him to be bound by such period as they may think tit having regard to the proportion of the course which he has attended.
LORD WRIGHT LORD WRIGHT moved, after "course" ["has been unable to complete such course"] to insert "or to pass the qualifying examination in relation to that course." The noble and learned Lord said: This is merely to add some words which were left out of the clause as it was originally drafted. It is necessary to put them in in order to bring this into line with the provision which it is intended to alter. It is little more than a drafting Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 39, after ("course") insert ("or to pass the qualifying examination in relation to that course").—(Lord Wright.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 5:
Power to suspend the award of prizes, etc.
5. Notwithstanding any provision in any will, trust deed, order of Court, or other instrument or in any rule or regulation, the Society or any Provincial Law Society may postpone until after the end of the period of the present emergency the award of any prize, medal or scholarship which would normally be awarded by them during that period and may retain in hand until after the end of that period any money which would normally be applicable to the prize, medal or scholarship whose award is thus suspended or may award such prize, medal or scholarship and apply thereto such sum (not being more than the sum which would normally be applicable thereto) as the Council or the governing body of the Provincial Law Society (as the case may be) at their absolute discretion may think fit and may pay such sum either free of Income Tax or after deduction therefrom of Income Tax at the rate for the time being in force. The Society or any Provincial Law Society may temporarily invest any money retained by them pursuant to the powers of this section in such manner as the Council or the governing body of the Provincial Law Society (as the case may be) at their discretion may think fit and may similarly invest any income or proceeds arising from such investment. Any money so retained.…
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT CALDECOTE)THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT CALDECOTE) moved to leave out "and may pay such sum either free of Income Tax or after deduction there-from of Income Tax at the rate for the time being in force." The noble and learned Viscount said: This Amendment is one that deals with a small point relating to the deduction of Income Tax from scholarships. The Bill as it stands proposes that these scholarships shall be paid free of Income Tax. In general that will be what will happen, because the funds are exempt from Income Tax; but in other cases it would not happen, and it is undesirable that in a Bill of this sort an amendment of the law should be made as it were by a side-wind. Perhaps I may be allowed to say a word about the succeeding Amendments which stand in my name. This is the first of a number of Amendments, some of which are designed to make this a purely war emergency measure, and therefore I shall propose the omission of some of the clauses in the Bill with a view to its obtaining a Second Reading and going through all its stages in another place. Others of the Amendments are purely drafting Amendments, which my noble and learned friend Lord Wright consents to being made in the Bill. I have been through the Bill which was introduced by my noble and learned friend, and these are the Amendments which I suggest are necessary to improve the language of the clauses. I beg to move this Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 20, leave out from ("fit") to the second ("The") in line 22.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 6. [Provision as to exercise of powers of Master of Rolls during period of emergency]:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The Amendments to Clause 6 which I have to move are purely drafting Amendments.
Amendments moved—
Page 3, line 42, leave out ("power") and insert ("of the powers")
Page 3, line 42, line 43, leave out ("is") and insert ("are")
Page 4, line 1, leave out from ("emergency") to the end of line 3 and insert ("be exercised by such Judge of the High Court as the Master of the Rolls may, by writing under his hand, direct; and any direction given by

801
the Master of the Rolls under this section may be varied or revoked by a subsequent direction given by him in like manner.
In the event of the office of the Master of the Rolls being vacant, the powers conferred on him by this section may be exercised by the Lord Chief Justice.")—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 6, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 7:
Re-enactment of s. 37 (6) of principal Act.
7. The following subsection shall be substituted for subsection (6) of Section thirty-seven of the principal Act (which relates to the application of fees in respect of the issue of practising certificates):—
"(6) Out of every fee received by the Registrar under this section five shillings may be applied by him to his own use and the remainder shall be applied as follows:—

(a) in such manner and to such extent as the Society may consider necessary towards the expenses of their school in London and the making of grants to approved law schools elsewhere; and

(b) subject thereto, to such other purposes of the Solicitors Acts, 1932 to 1930, as the Society may think fit;

and the Registrar shall submit annually to the Judges mentioned in the last preceding subsection an account of all such fees and of their application, and shall cause a copy of the account to be deposited at the hall of the Society for inspection by any solicitor."
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to leave out Clause 7. The noble and learned Viscount said: It is suggested that this clause could be omitted, because it is a proposal which cannot really be described as a war emergency measure.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 4, leave out Clause 7.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 8:
Amendment of s. 26 of principal Act.
8. The following subsection shall be substituted for subsection (1) of Section twenty-six of the principal Act (which relates to the examinations to be held under the management of the Law Society):—
"(1) The Law Society shall hold in every year such number of preliminary examinations and intermediate examinations and final examinations as the Council at their discretion may from time to time decide."
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to leave out "The following subsection shall be substituted for subsection (1) of." The noble and learned Viscount said: This is similarly an Amendment to limit the operation of Clause 8.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 26, leave out from the beginning to ("section") in line 27.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, after "Law Society" where those words first occur, to insert "shall during the period of the present emergency, have effect as if for subsection (1) thereof there were substituted the following subsection." The noble and learned Viscount said: This is one of the proposals to make this a war emergency measure. The clause as the Bill stands would be a permanent one, and the object of the Amendment is to confine its operation to the period of the present emergency.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 29, after ("Society") insert the said words.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 8, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 9:
Transfer to the Registrar of certain existing powers.
9.—(1) The following enactments shall have effect as if the Registrar were therein mentioned in place of the Master of the Rolls:—

(a) Subsection (2) of Section sixteen of the principal Act (which relates to the registration of articles of clerkship); and

(b) Subsection (2) of Section one of the Solicitors Act, 1936 (which enables the Master of the Rolls to direct that certain service by an articled clerk shall be deemed to be good service under his articles).

(2) Section twenty-one of the principal Act (which provides that articled clerks may not take other employment, except with the approval of the Master of the Rolls or a Judge of the High Court) shall have effect as if the Registrar were therein mentioned in place of tile Master of the Rolls or a Judge of the High Court.
(3) Section twenty-three of the principal Act (which empowers the Master of the Rolls to admit an articled clerk to be a solicitor if he is satisfied as to certain matters therein mentioned) shall have effect as if it empowered the Master of the Rolls to admit an articled clerk to be a solicitor if the Registrar reports to the Master of the Rolls that the Registrar is satisfied as to the said matters.
(4) Section twenty-nine of the principal Act (which relates to exemptions from the preliminary examination) shall have effect as if the power of granting exemptions thereunder were vested in the Registrar instead (if in the Master of the Rolls or the Lord Chief Justice.
(5) Subsection (4) of Section six of the Solicitors Act, 1936, shall have effect as if the Registrar were therein mentioned in place of the Master of the Rolls and the Lord Chief Justice.
(6) (i) Proviso (b) to subsection (1) of Section thirty-two of the principal Act (which relates to the conditions of admission to the final examination) is hereby repealed.
(ii) The words "or on appeal to the satisfaction of the Master of the Rolls" contained in paragraph (b) of subsection (3) of Section seven of the Solicitors Act, 1936 (which provides for amendments of Section thirty-two of the principal Act as to attendance at a law school before final examination) are hereby repealed.
(7) Section thirty-three of the principal Act (which provides for appeal to the Master of the Rolls in cases of failure to pass an intermediate or final examination) is hereby repealed.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I beg to move to leave out Clause 9.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 35, leave out Clause 9.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 10:
Interpretation.
10. In this Act, unless the context otherwise requires—
"National service" means and includes—

(a) service in any of the naval, military or air forces of the Crown;

(b) detention as a prisoner, military or civil, in any enemy country, or internment in an enemy or neutral country in consequence of the war which began on the third day of September nineteen hundred and thirty-nine; and

"Practising certificate" has the meaning given to that expression by Section thirty-six of the principal Act;
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The Amendments which I have put down to this clause, except for the last one, are purely drafting, and I ask permission to move them en bloc. The expression "national service" is used in the Bill, and these Amendments are designed to correct mistakes in drafting in the definition of this phrase.
Amendments moved—
Page 6, line 16, after ("Crown") insert ("during the period of the present emergency")
Page 6, line 16, line 17, after ("detention") insert ("during that period")
Page 6, line 16, line 18, after ("internment") insert ("during that period")
Page 6, line 16, line 20, leave out from ("of") to ("and") in line 22 and insert ("any war in which His Majesty may be engaged").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to leave out the definition of "Practising certificate." The noble and learned Viscount said: I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 7, leave out lines 1 to 3.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 10, as amended, agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to insert the following new clause after Clause 10:
Power to reckon national service as service under indenture of apprenticeship for the purposes of the Solicitors (Scotland) Act, 1933.
".—(1) Where any person, who has been or shall be during the period of the present emergency engaged in national service, has entered or shall enter into an indenture of apprenticeship in terms of the Solicitors (Scotland) Act, 1933, the General Council of Solicitors in Scotland may at their discretion permit the whole or any part of the period of such service to be reckoned as actual service under such indenture for the purposes of the said Act:
Provided that in any such case the person shall not be admitted as a solicitor unless he has during an aggregate period of not less than two years bona fide served as an apprentice with a practising solicitor.
(2) In this section the expressions 'the period of the present emergency' and 'national service 'have the meanings respectively assigned to them by Section ten of this Act with the substitution, however, of a reference to the Lord President of the Court of Session for any reference to the Registrar."
The noble and learned Viscount said: This is a new clause, moved in order to bring the arrangements in Scotland into conformity with those in England. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 10, insert the said new clause.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 11:
Short title, collective title and extent.
11.
(2) The Solicitors Acts, 1932 to 1939, and this Act may be cited together as the Solicitors Acts, 1932 to 1940.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I beg to move to leave out subsection (2).
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 8, leave out subsection (2).—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 11, at the beginning insert ("The last foregoing section of this Act shall extend to Scotland but save as aforesaid").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 11, as amended, agreed to.
Title:
An Act to provide for meeting difficulties arising from the present emergency and affecting solicitors or their articled clerks; to amend the enactments relating to articled clerks and the application of the proceeds of fees payable to the Registrar of Solicitors; and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Line 1, leave out from ("to") to ("solicitors") in line 6 and insert ("make special provision on account of circumstances arising out of the present emergency as to examinations and service under articles in the case of persons desirous of being admitted as solicitors, as to the awarding of prizes, medals and scholarships by law societies, and as to the delegation of the powers of the Master of the Rolls under the enactments relating to").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Title, as amended, agreed to.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
5.10 p.m.
LORD SNELL: My Lords, I beg to ask the noble Earl the Leader of the House whether he can make any statement respecting the business of the House for next week and the week after.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (EARL STANHOPE): My Lords, perhaps I might go a little further than my noble friend has asked me to do. I propose that there should be a formal sitting of the House at eleven o' clock tomorrow to give a First Reading to the Rating and Valuation (Postponement of Valuations) Bill. On Tuesday, March 12th, we shall receive the Old Age Pensions Bill and read it a first time and take the Report stage of the Agriculture (Miscellaneous War Provisions) Bill, which passed through Committee to-day, and the Report stage of the Solicitors (Emergency Provisions) Bill, which your Lordships have also just passed through Committee. On that same day we shall have the Second Reading of the Rating and Valuation Bill. There are two Questions on the Paper, one by Lord Rea, which is already there, and one by Lord Fairfield, who has now
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put down a Motion concerning the steps proposed by the Minister of Transport to deal with loss of life and damage during the black-out. On Wednesday there is a Motion by Lord Leverhulme, which is already on the Paper, in regard to the Central Register. On Thursday there will be the Second Reading of the Old Age Pensions Bill, the Third Reading of the Agriculture (Miscellaneous War Provisions) Bill and the Third Reading of the Solicitors (Emergency Provisions) Bill.
I am afraid it will be necessary to ask your Lordships to sit on Friday, March 15, in order to take the Committee stage of the Rating and Valuation Bill. Then I propose to ask your Lordships to sit on the following Monday, March 18, when we hope to take the Committee stage of the Old Age Pensions Bill and the Report stage of the Rating and Valuation Bill. On Tuesday, March 19, if no Amendments are made to the Old Age Pensions Bill, we shall take the Report stage, and also the Third Reading of the Rating and Valuation Bill. On Wednesday there is a Motion by the noble Lord, Lord Snell, on colonial development policy, and it may be we shall have to take the Third Reading of the Old Age Pensions Bill; but perhaps, if no particular changes have been made, we may take the Report stage and the Third Reading of that Bill on the previous day so that it may go to another place that night. On Thursday, March 21, it will be necessary to take all stages of the Consolidated Fund Bill, and I understand Parliament will rise that day for the Easter Recess.
LORD SNELL: Can the noble Earl give any indication as to whether, before the House rises, there will be any further statements on international policy?
EARL STANHOPE: As far as I understand there will be none next week. I have not heard anything about the week following.
LORD SNELL: There might be?
EARL STANHOPE: I have not heard one way or the other.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: May we take it that on Friday, March 15, there will be no other business except the Rating and Valuation Bill?
EARL STANHOPE: I propose we only take the Committee stage of that Bill.
House adjourned at thirteen minutes past five o'clock.